Which oral to kickstart upcoming test e cycle

ndiguy

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Fellas, will be starting a test enanthate run in the coming months. Plan is 500mg (250 twice per week) for 12 weeks. This will be my first injectable cycle. I have, however, done numerous PH/DS runs over the past decade with no serious negative side effects worth noting. I’m just ready to take the plunge.

I know that the recommendation is typically to run test by itself first, to see how ones body reacts. However, to be completely transparent/honest, I fully intend to kickstart with an oral (4-6 weeks, depending on the chosen compound). My hope is that by utilizing an oral at the beginning, I will see some nice results by the time the testosterone starts to really shine. I have the following on hand; SD, M-Sten, M1A and DMZ. Which oral would you personally choose?

I've done a lot of research over the years, to ensure that by the time I pin I would be ready for any issues that could (and very well may) arise. I've got everything else needed, on hand; proper cycle support, clomiphene (plus additional OTC post cycle goodies) exem as needed and some other misc ancillaries.

Looking forward to your thoughts/suggestions. Thanks!
 
ndiguy

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@Hyde and @Smont

thanks for the responses. Apologies in advance for another long winded post..

When I started PH’s back in 2010, I was of the mindset of start with mild compounds and eventually work my way to the heavier hitters. I utilized Bold200, 3AD, Halodrol, Mechabol, Epistane/Trenavar and most recently M-Sten at 20mg for 6 weeks. I have not yet tried DMZ, SD or M1A but they’re in my current stash.

being that I will not be running orals without test from this point forward, I’ll eventually have to experiment with the compounds that I haven’t tried yet. For that reason, I’m leaning toward DMZ. Sounds like it’s not as aggressive as m1a and especially superdrol.
 
Smont

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The only reasoning behind test only for a first cycle is so you know what side effects are coming from the test so you can handle them. You already ran multiple cycles so it's not your first and if you were to pick one oral you already used then you know what to expect from it, so a new weird side would obviously be from the new steroid in ths case the testosterone. That's why to me, picking something you already used makes the most sense. But, I'm the last person that's going to say dont try something new. I will say this, if you go with DMZ and you find yourself with a loss of appetite or shitty feeling then just drop it and continue with test. If you can't eat or train you wont grow as much and you dont want that.

As much is I like to start a cycle with a strong oral for instance gratification, I also have another point of view now. Be patient, take the test, at 8 weeks or so when gains stall now you start that oral and keep gaining all the way to pct. Easier said then done tho lol.
 
Smont

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Keep in mind that 30mg of superdrol or 60mg of DMZ, m1a, these things are much stronger then testosterone is at building muscle. Orals in general are stronger then injectables. Dont be surprised if you gain 15lbs in the first 4 weeks on DMZ and the scale stops moving for the rest of the cycle. The test is working but its working on making that 15lbs real muscle. The blow up on orals is mostly cosmetic. If you know what I'm trying to say
 
Codybenz

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I’m going to suggest a different approach. Don’t kickstart with an oral, finish with an oral like superdrol. If this is your first Test cycle you will respond really well, when the gains start to stall at the end, start using the superdrol to bust through the plateau. Plus if it’s at the end of the cycle, it’s not as big of a concern if you kill your appetite And energy, cycle will be ending. That’s what I would do in hindsight of my first cycle.
 
Smont

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I’m going to suggest a different approach. Don’t kickstart with an oral, finish with an oral like superdrol. If this is your first Test cycle you will respond really well, when the gains start to stall at the end, start using the superdrol to bust through the plateau. Plus if it’s at the end of the cycle, it’s not as big of a concern if you kill your appetite And energy, cycle will be ending. That’s what I would do in hindsight of my first cycle.
Great advice
 

BBiceps

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I’m going to suggest a different approach. Don’t kickstart with an oral, finish with an oral like superdrol. If this is your first Test cycle you will respond really well, when the gains start to stall at the end, start using the superdrol to bust through the plateau. Plus if it’s at the end of the cycle, it’s not as big of a concern if you kill your appetite And energy, cycle will be ending. That’s what I would do in hindsight of my first cycle.
^This is a good idea^

Also, from what you had in stock I would recommend SD. SD can be really fun.
 
Smont

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Lol, I think you posted saying basically the same thing while I was typing.
I did lol. It just makes more sense to me this way and I'm glad you agree. I realize theres many cycles I wasted blowing my load the first couple weeks when I could have started slow and increased or added gear every couple weeks to keep the numbers moving. The next time I run a cycle. That's what i will be doing. Start by doubling my trt to 300 for 4 weeks, then bump to 600 for 4 weeks and then add a oral or a short ester to kick it up in another 4 weeks ect
 
ndiguy

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@Codybenz and @Smont

Good info guys, I really appreciate the insight. The idea behind finishing with an oral makes perfect sense.
 
Smont

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@Codybenz and @Smont

Good info guys, I really appreciate the insight. The idea behind finishing with an oral makes perfect sense.
If you time it right and overlap it with your last week on test, you can continue the oral for 2-3 weeks while the test is clearing before pct. It's also a nice mental boost knowing theres 2 weeks or so left in your cycle after your last pin
 
ndiguy

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Also, from what you had in stock I would recommend SD. SD can be really fun.
What dosage do you enjoy? I’d likely start at 10mg and move up to 20. The SD I have is LGI, so it expired years ago, may have lost some potency as I’m not entirely sure how the previous owner stored it. Only one way to know for sure! Lol

If you time it right and overlap it with your last week on test, you can continue the oral for 2-3 weeks while the test is clearing before pct. It's also a nice mental boost knowing theres 2 weeks or so left in your cycle after your last pin
I was actually just thinking about how nicely that’ll work with the final injection and the few weeks before I start clomid. Sounds like a plan to me. Thanks again!
 

BBiceps

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What dosage do you enjoy? I’d likely start at 10mg and move up to 20. The SD I have is LGI, so it expired years ago, may have lost some potency as I’m not entirely sure how the previous owner stored it. Only one way to know for sure! Lol
I would start it at 20mg and go from there since it’s expired and might lost some potency. Just make sure to be hydrated and have other electrolytes around, cramping can be pretty severe, other than that SD was good to me.
 
ndiguy

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I would start it at 20mg and go from there since it’s expired and might lost some potency. Just make sure to be hydrated and have other electrolytes around, cramping can be pretty severe, other than that SD was good to me.
I remember during my Epistane/Trenavar run, I got some random cramps in my neck and chest that were legitimately scary haha. I couldn't seem to drink enough water. Of course they subsided once I got into pct, thank god.
 
Smont

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I would start it at 20mg and go from there since it’s expired and might lost some potency. Just make sure to be hydrated and have other electrolytes around, cramping can be pretty severe, other than that SD was good to me.
It shouldn't loose potency at all, exp dates on anabolics dont mean much. But I'd still start at 20 regardless
 
Hyde

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It shouldn't loose potency at all, exp dates on anabolics dont mean much. But I'd still start at 20 regardless
This, all of it.

Pin test E for 10 total weeks, and start the SD the last (10th) week of test and run thru weeks 11 & 12, maybe 13 if you like feeling shitty, then it’s time for your SERM.

Blasting hard at the start is more about getting size/strength up ASAP. I did this my last cycle because I needed to get training at a higher bodyweight for a powerlifting meet - size gains were ultimately done by week 7, and most of it had come on the first 3-4 weeks. Which was fine for my purposes, but not optimal for muscle building at all. Quick size isn’t the same thing as quality muscle.
 

BBiceps

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Idk if it’s popular with some here but you could kick off with the DMZ for the first 3 weeks and then finish your cycle with the SD. I’m doing something similar now actually.
 

BBiceps

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remember during my Epistane/Trenavar run, I got some random cramps in my neck and chest that were legitimately scary haha. I couldn't seem to drink enough water. Of course they subsided once I got into pct, thank god.
I know what you’re talking about, I had massive quad cramps my first run with SD, I like to run and can put in a decent amount on miles usually but with SD I could barley last a mile before my calves, quads and lower back was cramping so bad I had to walk/waddle back, lol.
 
ndiguy

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I know what you’re talking about, I had massive quad cramps my first run with SD, I like to run and can put in a decent amount on miles usually but with SD I could barley last a mile before my calves, quads and lower back was cramping so bad I had to walk/waddle back, lol.
Is there a specific product or electrolyte supplement that you've used with success?

The only thing I've tried is around 5 grams of taurine, didn't seem to help too much for the back pumps.
 
Smont

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Is there a specific product or electrolyte supplement that you've used with success?

The only thing I've tried is around 5 grams of taurine, didn't seem to help too much for the back pumps.
You need to embrace that pump, that painful pump that oral steroids give is usually a increase In blood volume. Forcing nutrient rich blood into your muscles. I think the reason it hurts so much in the lower back and shins for some guys is because there smaller weaker muscles that your not use to getting a pump in.

I tried taurine back in the day and I dont think it helps, I've actually never met a single person in real life that said it helps, only on the msgs boards.

I'm not saying it absolutely doesn't help, but I dont find it useful.
 

BBiceps

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Is there a specific product or electrolyte supplement that you've used with success?

The only thing I've tried is around 5 grams of taurine, didn't seem to help too much for the back pumps.
I have used Potassium+Magnesium pills with sugar free Gatorade/Powerade with some luck. Taurine haven’t really helped me either.
 
Smont

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If your worried about electrolyte balance which shouldn't be a issue for most ppl, pedialyte or any knock off brand. The stuff they give to babies
 
Smont

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Just remember guys, electrolytes need to be balanced. taking too much potassium or salt with too little of the other can cause a whole bunch of problems in it's own. Even kill you in extreme situations
 
ValiantThor08

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The only reasoning behind test only for a first cycle is so you know what side effects are coming from the test so you can handle them. You already ran multiple cycles so it's not your first and if you were to pick one oral you already used then you know what to expect from it, so a new weird side would obviously be from the new steroid in ths case the testosterone. That's why to me, picking something you already used makes the most sense. But, I'm the last person that's going to say dont try something new. I will say this, if you go with DMZ and you find yourself with a loss of appetite or shitty feeling then just drop it and continue with test. If you can't eat or train you wont grow as much and you dont want that.

As much is I like to start a cycle with a strong oral for instance gratification, I also have another point of view now. Be patient, take the test, at 8 weeks or so when gains stall now you start that oral and keep gaining all the way to pct. Easier said then done tho lol.
I have an idea. Didn't read all comments, so maybe it was pitched. But run a strong oral in the beginning. Then after the oral, run just test at a dose a little higher than a trt dose to reset myostatin, and then after a while, increase the test and run another strong oral, then PCT.
 

Whisky

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You need to embrace that pump, that painful pump that oral steroids give is usually a increase In blood volume. Forcing nutrient rich blood into your muscles. I think the reason it hurts so much in the lower back and shins for some guys is because there smaller weaker muscles that your not use to getting a pump in.

I tried taurine back in the day and I dont think it helps, I've actually never met a single person in real life that said it helps, only on the msgs boards.

I'm not saying it absolutely doesn't help, but I dont find it useful.
I know I’m just a guy on the boards but for me taurine has definitely helped on many occasions - works really quickly (within 12 hours) for me personally. Honestly seen it work more often than not for people I lift with as well.

OP. Just my two cents but I personally like a kickstart oral followed by test only for 3-4 weeks followed by a finisher.

I used sd to start last time but would use it to finish next time. Will probably kick with var or adrol (depending on whether I feel I need to recomp at the start or straight out bulk from the off)
 
Smont

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I know I’m just a guy on the boards but for me taurine has definitely helped on many occasions - works really quickly (within 12 hours) for me personally. Honestly seen it work more often than not for people I lift with as well.

OP. Just my two cents but I personally like a kickstart oral followed by test only for 3-4 weeks followed by a finisher.

I used sd to start last time but would use it to finish next time. Will probably kick with var or adrol (depending on whether I feel I need to recomp at the start or straight out bulk from the off)
[/QUOTE

As am I. Were all just ppl on the msg boards here lol. That's why i threw in the definitely not saying it does not work part. Guess I should of said no1 I know personally.
 
Hyde

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Orals mess up intracellular hydration. They tend to cause greater sodium retention in my experience, so adding sodium (normally the most useful electrolyte for cramping when off orals) isn’t as helpful. What does tend to help is added potassium - most average folks don’t get the recommended 4,700mg daily, let alone a larger sweating athlete, so adding that to the diet with foods like spinach or to drinks via granulated potassium like Morton Salt Substitute or NuSalt to help control bp and therefore kidney health becomes a no-brainer.

And any lifter not supplementing with magnesium already is likely doing themselves a disservice. It’s not in many foods but greatly aids athletic performance and helps cramps. I take 400mg of a blend nightly year round and don’t really ever use more unless I have a muscle lock up/Charlie horse.

Taurine is dirt cheap and directly aids athletic performance. There is a reason it’s in most intras and many preWO blends. There is no good reason for you not to be drinking it intra.

Carbs, glycerol, creatine will all increase hydration uptake, but having enough salt potassium and magnesium in your body are the biggest factors for me.
 
Mathb33

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Orals mess up intracellular hydration. They tend to cause greater sodium retention in my experience, so adding sodium (normally the most useful electrolyte for cramping when off orals) isn’t as helpful. What does tend to help is added potassium - most average folks don’t get the recommended 4,700mg daily, let alone a larger sweating athlete, so adding that to the diet with foods like spinach or to drinks via granulated potassium like Morton Salt Substitute or NuSalt to help control bp and therefore kidney health becomes a no-brainer.

And any lifter not supplementing with magnesium already is likely doing themselves a disservice. It’s not in many foods but greatly aids athletic performance and helps cramps. I take 400mg of a blend nightly year round and don’t really ever use more unless I have a muscle lock up/Charlie horse.

Taurine is dirt cheap and directly aids athletic performance. There is a reason it’s in most intras and many preWO blends. There is no good reason for you not to be drinking it intra.

Carbs, glycerol, creatine will all increase hydration uptake, but having enough salt potassium and magnesium in your body are the biggest factors for me.
All you need to know is here.
 
ndiguy

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Orals mess up intracellular hydration. They tend to cause greater sodium retention in my experience, so adding sodium (normally the most useful electrolyte for cramping when off orals) isn’t as helpful. What does tend to help is added potassium - most average folks don’t get the recommended 4,700mg daily, let alone a larger sweating athlete, so adding that to the diet with foods like spinach or to drinks via granulated potassium like Morton Salt Substitute or NuSalt to help control bp and therefore kidney health becomes a no-brainer.

And any lifter not supplementing with magnesium already is likely doing themselves a disservice. It’s not in many foods but greatly aids athletic performance and helps cramps. I take 400mg of a blend nightly year round and don’t really ever use more unless I have a muscle lock up/Charlie horse.

Taurine is dirt cheap and directly aids athletic performance. There is a reason it’s in most intras and many preWO blends. There is no good reason for you not to be drinking it intra.

Carbs, glycerol, creatine will all increase hydration uptake, but having enough salt potassium and magnesium in your body are the biggest factors for me.
greatly appreciate this info!
 
Smont

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Orals mess up intracellular hydration. They tend to cause greater sodium retention in my experience, so adding sodium (normally the most useful electrolyte for cramping when off orals) isn’t as helpful. What does tend to help is added potassium - most average folks don’t get the recommended 4,700mg daily, let alone a larger sweating athlete, so adding that to the diet with foods like spinach or to drinks via granulated potassium like Morton Salt Substitute or NuSalt to help control bp and therefore kidney health becomes a no-brainer.

And any lifter not supplementing with magnesium already is likely doing themselves a disservice. It’s not in many foods but greatly aids athletic performance and helps cramps. I take 400mg of a blend nightly year round and don’t really ever use more unless I have a muscle lock up/Charlie horse.

Taurine is dirt cheap and directly aids athletic performance. There is a reason it’s in most intras and many preWO blends. There is no good reason for you not to be drinking it intra.

Carbs, glycerol, creatine will all increase hydration uptake, but having enough salt potassium and magnesium in your body are the biggest factors for me.
Nice write up hyde. Good stuff
 

saderboy80

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Dont know why it posted my reply as if I quoted myself lol
I really like to use taurine as well for back pumps on SD. Seems to work better then electrolytes for me. Now though if I run heavy orals I have an intra-workout shake that contains BcAA’s (comes with electrolytes already), creatine, taurine and a quick digesting carb powder. Seems to kill my back pumps right away.

That’s just my experience, seems like many people aren’t in favor of taurine though. To each their own!



@Hyde I didn’t read your post before replying. 100% agree with what you are saying.
 
Hyde

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greatly appreciate this info!
Hope it helps someone! Definitely some things worth trying.

Keep in mind if carbs are very low, you will also need a lot more salt. Keto specialists recommend like 5-6g daily since they don’t have carbs to help hydrate.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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i will just add that as a seasoned vet some of the stuff Hyde brings up is not written or told that much.. its not the typical stuff you find when you first start learning and researching. I myself spent yrs doing untold damages learning this stuff before we had these types of discussions.

potassium tablets are cheap i eat them like candy. but i also begin all cycles now with a diet gatorade each day as well.

sodium in foods always. + himalayan salt pre work out!

mag sups YES YES YES.. take a **** load before bed.. calms u smooths out blood vessels and relaxes blood pressure.

never had much luck circumventing cramps and such with tuarine but with recent data suggesting it may help you come back from cycles easier says its playing an important role in the hormonal/endo system

some other stuff like natural diuretics' can be helpful if you experience a lot of water retention and extra cellular fluid accumulation.
 
ndiguy

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I myself spent yrs doing untold damages learning this stuff before we had these types of discussions.
Very good point. I'm certainly glad we have a place like this, where seasoned vets are more than willing to provide their experiences / suggestions.
 
Smont

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Very good point. I'm certainly glad we have a place like this, where seasoned vets are more than willing to provide their experiences / suggestions.
This dosen't happen too often around here lately lol. Usually someone has to attack someone because they can't agree or are too scientific to accept a personal opinion ect.

But this is how every thread should be. A guy asks a question, people share opinions and experiences and the op comes up with his own answer based on what he feels best suited him.

Its nice not having the thread derailed with 5 pages of arguments for once lol
 

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Haha, Na to be honest I agree I’d always go with what someone you know in real life experiences over anyone on a forum as in reality we could be anyone.

to be fair I’m confident in plenty of the guys on here but when people never post pics or anything you can really know if it’s just some kid playing around or someone who knows a bit and likes to argue etc. Always easier to have real life knowledge for sure

was just balancing the discussion as taurine has legit worked for me for years.......
 
Renew1

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Haha, Na to be honest I agree I’d always go with what someone you know in real life experiences over anyone on a forum as in reality we could be anyone.

to be fair I’m confident in plenty of the guys on here but when people never post pics or anything you can really know if it’s just some kid playing around or someone who knows a bit and likes to argue etc. Always easier to have real life knowledge for sure

was just balancing the discussion as taurine has legit worked for me for years.......
Taurine has helped me, as well.
 

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I can't at 4, I got a dentist appointment. but tomorrow its soooooo on!
I’ve just finished a cut and I’m between cycles so feeling a touch weak right now, can we wait 3 months till I’m bulking please sir?
 
Smont

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perfect, maybe we can get coffee and a mince pie after?
What does a mince pie equate to in America? Is it like a pie crust filled with meat and a sauce or something? Like a chicken pot pie???

Cuz I do like myself some chicken pot pie
 
Hyde

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i will just add that as a seasoned vet some of the stuff Hyde brings up is not written or told that much.. its not the typical stuff you find when you first start learning and researching. I myself spent yrs doing untold damages learning this stuff before we had these types of discussions.

potassium tablets are cheap i eat them like candy. but i also begin all cycles now with a diet gatorade each day as well.

sodium in foods always. + himalayan salt pre work out!

mag sups YES YES YES.. take a **** load before bed.. calms u smooths out blood vessels and relaxes blood pressure.

never had much luck circumventing cramps and such with tuarine but with recent data suggesting it may help you come back from cycles easier says its playing an important role in the hormonal/endo system

some other stuff like natural diuretics' can be helpful if you experience a lot of water retention and extra cellular fluid accumulation.
Also, kinda on the subjects of diuretics, a cool tip I picked up from Dante Trudel’s IG was Horse Chestnut extract for leg circulation.

Many folks won’t need it, but if you get edema/foot+ankle swelling (like I do when on test), a morning and evening cap of horse chestnut will make a serious difference. Used it the last 2 runs and I can tell if I don’t use it.

Some folks can be allergic to it, but it’s pretty cheap to try. Nature’s Way and Swanson make good ones.
 

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