What is over training?

[willc86]

ok thanks. you guys been great help! So much information though!! lol OT just still confuses me, but I do not think I am heading towards that direction; so I should be doing ok, lol.

 

[asooneyeonig]

i understand, i'm just quoting an article, but even with all those variables....overtraining is still very possible

it sure is. and i know this is only from personal experience and not scientific at all. since i started competing in sports and weightlifting at the ripe old age of 7, im 38 now, i have only met 1 person to overtrain. and i dont mean under recover, i mean overtrain. in that his appetite went out of whack. he developed insomnia and huge mood swings. he had been working hard for over a year to get to that state. it took him over 4 months to recover to a point to start to have good workouts again. and several more months to get back up to where he was.

that doesnt sound to common if in 30 years i only know of 1 case. and it sure doesnt sound like what most people think is overtraining. most people take a week off or deload for 1 week and they come back stronger and think they were overtrained. over training has many other symptoms other than regressed strength or work capacity.

 

[Blade Icewood]

Whoever coined the term overtraining needs to be shot. Overtraining is primarily a CNS issue; overuse is a completely different issue. 99% of people that think they are overtraining are not. Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.

:goodpost:

 

[ZiR RED]

For the purpose of understanding CNS fatigue as it relates to physiological overtraining...Has anyone explained how nerve impulses are sent in the body? If not, understanding the perturbations that occur in the nerves, especially the CNS when a command is directed from the brain to the periphery (muscles) will be useful. By explain such, you can visualize just what a nerve goes through, and better, the differences in signal amplitude and nerve usage in heavy squat vs. 3 hours of curling.

Br

 

[Vengeance187]

the differences in signal amplitude and nerve usage in heavy squat vs. 3 hours of curling.

What is the "signal amplitude" on the last rep to failure in a 8rm? Is it vastly different vs a 1rm? Or is it the same since effort is the same? Is the signal a mere function of the weight lifted, or the sheer effort to lift that weight?

 

[ZiR RED]

What is the "signal amplitude" on the last rep to failure in a 8rm? Is it vastly different vs a 1rm? Or is it the same since effort is the same? Is the signal a mere function of the weight lifted, or the sheer effort to lift that weight?

That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.

My point in the previous post was to discuss the quantity of nerve usage difference in intense (close to 1rm) compound movements (dead lift, squat, etc.) vs. less intense (higher rep) smaller movements (curls, flys, etc.), and then tie all that in to the way nerves send signals and the amount of work they need to perform (ion pumping and clearing inorganic phosphates) to return to baseline after sending such signals.

Br

 

[Young Gotti]

been reading numerous things about overtraining and this popped out to me

The symptoms and consequences of overtraining have been reported to affect more than 60% of distance runners at least once during their career, 21% of athletes in the Australian swimming team during a half-year season, and more than 50% of semi-professional soccer players after a 4 month season.

 

[Rodja]

That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.

My point in the previous post was to discuss the quantity of nerve usage difference in intense (close to 1rm) compound movements (dead lift, squat, etc.) vs. less intense (higher rep) smaller movements (curls, flys, etc.), and then tie all that in to the way nerves send signals and the amount of work they need to perform (ion pumping and clearing inorganic phosphates) to return to baseline after sending such signals.

Br

I think it has been implied, but never overtly stated until you brought it up. You kind generally assume when someone talks about training at >90% that it's on major, compound lifts and not isolation lifts.

been reading numerous things about overtraining and this popped out to me

The symptoms and consequences of overtraining have been reported to affect more than 60% of distance runners at least once during their career, 21% of athletes in the Australian swimming team during a half-year season, and more than 50% of semi-professional soccer players after a 4 month season.

Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.

 

[Young Gotti]

I think it has been implied, but never overtly stated until you brought it up. You kind generally assume when someone talks about training at >90% that it's on major, compound lifts and not isolation lifts.



Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.

wasn't comparing, those numbers are just crazy to me, 50% of semi-pro soccer players....imagine the number on full time professional soccer players, thats just insane

 

[Rodja]

wasn't comparing, those numbers are just crazy to me, 50% of semi-pro soccer players....imagine the number on full time professional soccer players, thats just insane

Pros also have better access to treatment, diet, trainers, easier travel, etc.

 

[Torobestia]

I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use. During 1 rm or heavy dynamic effort its an all or nothing principal, where the mass of nerve fibers in the CNS recruited are going to be nearly equal to all the motor units involved in the movement.

Going back to this since it's interesting to me, I guess the next question is that if the case is a 1RM signal amplitude > that of a failure rep of a 8RM set is this: what would the difference be between the last rep at failure (not saying you actually have to fail per se) of a rest-paused set vs. a 1-RM? I bet they would be equivalent. Presumably it's why rest-paused sets are so good at both building muscle and strength but with significantly lower weight than your 1RM.

 

[Vengeance187]

Apples and a oranges. Their training load is far beyond that of a BB'ers.

Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
That still proves this statement you made 100% false:

Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain and there are ways in which you can do that and still not overtrain.

And.

I call it excessive volume, but it is not going to result in true "overtraining."

The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)

That's actually a really good question. I haven't seen any research actually measuring the amplitude nerve conduction within in the CNS.

I would have to speculate that when doing the same exercise the amplitude would be slightly less at the failure of an 8 rm vs. a 1 rm. The reason for this is because during an 8rm as muscle fibers fatigue new ones are recruited, and as such, there is a less neural use.

I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...

 

[ZiR RED]

Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
That still proves this statement you made 100% false:

And.

The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)

I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...

I think we need to differentiate between anaerobic vs. aerobic over training, as the symptoms and effects are a bit different. With anaerobic over training, as you'd experience in weight lifting, there is hyper activity in the sympathetic nervous system resulting in chronic fatigue, restlessness and irratability, insomnia, weight loss, increased resting HR, and delayed recovery. With aerobic its a case of parasympathetic dominance, and the symptoms are different (save for loss of performance) easily fatigued from exercise, depression and loss of interest, decreased resting HR, with little changes in sleep, apetite or weight.

WRT moderate rep training to failure versus 1 RM training and their effects on the CNS and nerve usage...you bring up a good point. What I wonder is does the signal just increase because fibers are fatiguing, or is there some sort of other feedback...either from fatiguing fibers or receptors in the muscle/joint that results in an altered set of commands (versus strictly higher magnitude) being set to the muscle during a failure rep.

It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.

Either way, both a 1rm and taking a set of say...greater than 80% 1rm to failure is going require a high neural drive, and thus a necessitate a period of neural recovery..of which, more than just training can impact. Mental/emotional stress can have some pretty profound impacts upon this too...which is why the best olympic lifters are basically kept communities where they do nothing but lift 6 hours day, ice/heat bath, and eat without worrying much about anything else (see - Donny Shankle and/or Jon North)

Br

 

[ZiR RED]

I just dug this out....though I haven't had time to read it yet, it appears to be a very interesting article. Anyone who wants FT please PM or email me.

Sports Med. 2002;32(3):185-209.
[h=1]The unknown mechanism of the overtraining syndrome: clues from depression and psychoneuroimmunology.[/h]Armstrong LE, VanHeest JL.
[h=3]Source[/h]Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, Connecticut 06269-1110, USA.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]When prolonged, excessive training stresses are applied concurrent with inadequate recovery, performance decrements and chronic maladaptations occur. Known as the overtraining syndrome (OTS), this complex condition afflicts a large percentage of athletes at least once during their careers. There is no objective biomarker for OTS and the underlying mechanism is unknown. However, it is not widely recognised that OTS and clinical depression [e.g. major depression (MD)] involve remarkably similar signs and symptoms, brain structures, neurotransmitters, endocrine pathways and immune responses. We propose that OTS and MD have similar aetiologies. Our examination of numerous shared characteristics offers insights into the mechanism of OTS and encourages testable experimental hypotheses. Novel recommendations are proposed for the treatment of overtrained athletes with antidepressant medications, and guidelines are provided for psychological counselling.

PMID:11839081 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[mattrag]

I think we need to differentiate between anaerobic vs. aerobic over training, as the symptoms and effects are a bit different. With anaerobic over training, as you'd experience in weight lifting, there is hyper activity in the sympathetic nervous system resulting in chronic fatigue, restlessness and irratability, insomnia, weight loss, increased resting HR, and delayed recovery. With aerobic its a case of parasympathetic dominance, and the symptoms are different (save for loss of performance) easily fatigued from exercise, depression and loss of interest, decreased resting HR, with little changes in sleep, apetite or weight.

WRT moderate rep training to failure versus 1 RM training and their effects on the CNS and nerve usage...you bring up a good point. What I wonder is does the signal just increase because fibers are fatiguing, or is there some sort of other feedback...either from fatiguing fibers or receptors in the muscle/joint that results in an altered set of commands (versus strictly higher magnitude) being set to the muscle during a failure rep.

It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.

Either way, both a 1rm and taking a set of say...greater than 80% 1rm to failure is going require a high neural drive, and thus a necessitate a period of neural recovery..of which, more than just training can impact. Mental/emotional stress can have some pretty profound impacts upon this too...which is why the best olympic lifters are basically kept communities where they do nothing but lift 6 hours day, ice/heat bath, and eat without worrying much about anything else (see - Donny Shankle and/or Jon North)

Br

Nice post! Could one use these signs to determine when to shift from a low rep to a higher rep (bb ist) type workout? Moving from a power wave?

 

[Rodja]

Their training "load"? You mean their training volume. As far as I'm aware, they don't train anywhere near their 1rm.
That still proves this statement you made 100% false:

And.

The reason I asked the question I asked was because I've had the symptoms of overtraining myself about a year ago(headaches, night sweats, insomnia, no appetite, shakes/chills) and I never train heavier than 5rm. Most of my training over the last 4.5 years is around 8rm. I've always taken every single set to failure, minimum 6 sets per body part. I only stopped doing that 2 weeks ago because I'm giving non-linear periodization a try.(I still feel constantly burned out a year after the symptoms)I don't know of any research actually measuring it either. Are you sure there is less neural use as new fibers are recruited? Muscle fatigue is due to a number of factors(the newest found contributor being calcium ion leakage) and might not be from a reduction in neural signaling. Just because the fiber is fatigued doesn't mean the brain stops trying to send the signal to make it contract. It might, or might not. If it doesn't, then the neural signal increases to find more available fibers to recruit, rather than decreases; in which case the last rep would be more like a 1rm in terms of neural drive. Until it's measured, it's all speculation...

Load as in overall time training including aerobic and anaerobic, which is something that a BB'er is not going to even approach. Of course, all of this is looking at the training itself in a nutshell; if you're working 60 hours/week, your threshold is going to lower.

You have to look at it in this respect as well: BB'ers train muscles, not movements. I have no idea what your template was, but the common training of a muscle 1x/week leaves more recovery time compared to something like a conjugate system. Although not lab controlled, the easiest way to show the difference between training at 1-2RM and ~8RM is this: try a month where you work up to to a single or double 2-3x/week (3x/week if you incorporate deadlifts into back day, 2x/week for only squat and bench). What you will start to notice is a lack of progress or even diminished strength. Take a week off and then return to the 8RM scheme and compare your progression in terms of strength, mood, sleep, etc.

The biggest problem with the whole overtraining scare is that it is something that is constantly said by people within the BB'ing community who do not wave their loads and are largely creatures of habit. It's even more absurd when you think about the amount of gear that most of them use as well. We as a whole have been conditioned to accept certain things even though there really isn't too much reason behind it. I, too, fell for the whole no more than an hour, train each muscle 1x/week crap that is written over and over and over in every magazine (unless they were covering Ronnie). The human body is capable of a lot more than most of us believe and learning our personal threshold is something that takes time and experimentation.

 

[Vengeance187]

It could be a combination of both. Highly trained athletes, especially those who train with submaximal loads for speed (i.e.: dynamic work and olympic lifters) appear to be able to recruit a greater number of fibers and fast twitch fibers than lesser trained or those who do not train dynamically. This might support the theory of a different set of commands being sent.

It may, but an increase in number of neural inroads may account for this as well. It may be both...

Load as in overall time training including aerobic and anaerobic, which is something that a BB'er is not going to even approach. Of course, all of this is looking at the training itself in a nutshell; if you're working 60 hours/week, your threshold is going to lower.

The point is you said it was impossible unless consistently training >90% 1rm, and it's not...
From John Berardi:
"As a side note, I think it’s also important to note that overtraining stress equals the sum of the training and the non-training stress factors. Although training is the major contributor to overtraining syndrome, occupational, educational, and social stressors are accumulative and play a significant role (2). That’s why someone who’s only training 3 days per week can indeed be overtrained. Most gym devotees would laugh if someone suggested that they could be overtrained while on a 3 day per week maintenance program but it’s true. If the 3 days of training adds to some serious extracurricular stress, that’s all it might take."
Maintenance; not >90% 1rm...

Although not lab controlled, the easiest way to show the difference between training at 1-2RM and ~8RM is this: try a month where you work up to to a single or double 2-3x/week (3x/week if you incorporate deadlifts into back day, 2x/week for only squat and bench). What you will start to notice is a lack of progress or even diminished strength. Take a week off and then return to the 8RM scheme and compare your progression in terms of strength, mood, sleep, etc.

I've already experienced that from 5-8rm. I don't need to do it again at 1-2rm. So it takes longer. It's not impossible as you've been saying.

 

[Rodja]

The point is you said it was impossible unless consistently training >90% 1rm, and it's not...
From John Berardi:
"As a side note, I think it’s also important to note that overtraining stress equals the sum of the training and the non-training stress factors. Although training is the major contributor to overtraining syndrome, occupational, educational, and social stressors are accumulative and play a significant role (2). That’s why someone who’s only training 3 days per week can indeed be overtrained. Most gym devotees would laugh if someone suggested that they could be overtrained while on a 3 day per week maintenance program but it’s true. If the 3 days of training adds to some serious extracurricular stress, that’s all it might take."
Maintenance; not >90% 1rm...
I've already experienced that from 5-8rm. I don't need to do it again at 1-2rm. So it takes longer. It's not impossible as you've been saying.

You're taking things out of context. This context is the "gym rat" type and not an athlete. While I was fighting, I would always teeter the line of being overtrained without touching anything near my 1RM. However, the 3-4 hours in the gym was only a fraction of my overall training week. The quote from Berardi's site (BTW, the article is not written by Beradi and the citation deals with endurance athletes who have train a whole lot more than most on this site) underscores something that I touched upon and that is overall stress that each person deals with daily.

If you're going to quote me, then do so accurately. I never said it was impossible to overtrain as that's not how science works. Also, the main point that I was trying to make and that is to learn how to wave your percentages and overall volume. You have not altered your template for a long period of time and that is going to result in stagnation before it results in overtraining. This illustrates another reason the conjugate system works so well: avoiding the stagnation by not doing the same thing over and over.

 

[mattrag]

You're taking things out of context. This context is the "gym rat" type and not an athlete. While I was fighting, I would always teeter the line of being overtrained without touching anything near my 1RM. However, the 3-4 hours in the gym was only a fraction of my overall training week. The quote from Berardi's site (BTW, the article is not written by Beradi and the citation deals with endurance athletes who have train a whole lot more than most on this site) underscores something that I touched upon and that is overall stress that each person deals with daily.

If you're going to quote me, then do so accurately. I never said it was impossible to overtrain as that's not how science works. Also, the main point that I was trying to make and that is to learn how to wave your percentages and overall volume. You have not altered your template for a long period of time and that is going to result in stagnation before it results in overtraining. This illustrates another reason the conjugate system works so well: avoiding the stagnation by not doing the same thing over and over.

I think everyone reads the endurance and performance studies too I've when most of us really should be focused mainly on how to look better. Which in most cases will not be the best ways for performance.

 

[Rodja]

I think everyone reads the endurance and performance studies too I've when most of us really should be focused mainly on how to look better. Which in most cases will not be the best ways for performance.

The whole nutrient timing belief all stems from endurance athletes as well (they took it a step further, though).

 

[mattrag]

The whole nutrient timing belief all stems from endurance athletes as well (they took it a step further, though).

I can see nutrient timing being an issue for anyone who trains multiple times a day. i.e. Crossfit, olympic lifters, runners, any pro athlete really...

After looking at the volume that a lot of pros follow and their career... I dont think over training is really something to worry about unless you are going from doing nothing to training like 2+ hours a day. I see no reason why someone who wants to add more volume to their workout cant over time. Or add more intensity. Their is a limit, just it's safe to say unless you are doing some that is severely out of your normal scope of exercise, overtraining will take a LONG time to get to you. Unless you are stressed beyond belief.

 

[Rodja]

I can see nutrient timing being an issue for anyone who trains multiple times a day. i.e. Crossfit, olympic lifters, runners, any pro athlete really...

After looking at the volume that a lot of pros follow and their career... I dont think over training is really something to worry about unless you are going from doing nothing to training like 2+ hours a day. I see no reason why someone who wants to add more volume to their workout cant over time. Or add more intensity. Their is a limit, just it's safe to say unless you are doing some that is severely out of your normal scope of exercise, overtraining will take a LONG time to get to you. Unless you are stressed beyond belief.

Fantastic post.

 

[xtraflossy]

I have always considered overtraining to be in 2 categories.

1) Obviously over training in relation to nutrition; meaning your not eating enough to recover in time to advance a training goal (where you could either eat more, or train slightly less to make up "the difference")

2) When you wake up feeling hung over (in the head) due to cns strain. <-- this is the one I am most familiar with.

**#2 is also when Nutraplanet get most of my business as I'll go all out on some test boosters and GH supps.
I can't begin to say how much of a releife a little ghrp-6 or something does for me in this regard.

 

[Vengeance187]

If you're going to quote me, then do so accurately. I never said it was impossible to overtrain as that's not how science works.

I've seen you do this before when backed into a corner. You pretend like you weren't wrong, you were just incorrectly quoted or misunderstood. Complete BS. You weren't inaccurately quoted in the slightest. If you didn't clarify that's your bad, not mine. You were speaking in absolutes;"Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain". You're just wrong...

 

[Rodja]

I've seen you do this before when backed into a corner. You pretend like you weren't wrong, you were just incorrectly quoted or misunderstood. Complete BS. You weren't inaccurately quoted in the slightest. If you didn't clarify that's your bad, not mine. You were speaking in absolutes;"Unless you're consistently training >90% of your 1RM 2-3x/week, you're not going to overtrain". You're just wrong...

And what did I say at the end of that sentence? That there are ways to avoid it even then. I have clarified my post(s) and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove outside of trying to be a contrarian to my posts.