What brand of phosphatic acid do you get?
- Thread starter Boonfly8
- Start date
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Mediator is the big name standardized option that’s easy to take in a few pills. I noticed good strength gains with it years ago, especially at double dose. But soy lecithin granules also have a lot of PA if you take enough, and are very cheap, and also have some PC as well. If you can afford the extra calories and fat (as well as the taste) they’re a solid budget option that allows you to get some big doses for cheap.
Slims
Well-known member
I think it's the patent and/or the standardization method used by Mediator. I've taken PA many times and it's better than creatine for strength gains, but they're far better taken together. PA also adds a muscle fullness that I've not experienced on anything else.
Cutler Nutrition's King is was one of the OG PA supplements, if you can get your hands on it?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
King was great. At least the OG one. Didn’t they drop Mediator for some other form or something?
sns8778
Board Sponsor
We haven't been asked for a Phosphatidic Acid supplement in a long time. So it wouldn't be during the 12 weeks of new releases, but I would be open to doing one if enough people wanted it.
I hadn't followed it in so long. I know about Mediator but haven't even looked at any others. I thought the Mediator guys had the patents pretty locked up on this.
Slims
Well-known member
Mediator is expensive, but if it was worth it I'd guess that the R&D team at SNS could get their own PA patent.
OR
Add a decent amount of soy lecithin into a daily ergogenic supplement.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I think that the Mediator people have the patents pretty wrapped up for Phosphatidic Acid. To my knowledge, anyone that wants to do one would need to license it from them.
We have a daily use ergogenic coming out that will be absolutely loaded but it won't have any soy lecithin in it. That's something that people could always add to it though.
If we were to do one, we would do it the right way and go with the Mediator. But I wonder how well any of them really sell. I know some of the big brand ones sell bc anything by them will sell to a degree; but I was surprised to see Cutler discontinue King (at least to my knowledge it looks like they did).
Slims
Well-known member
I think what puts a lot of people off of PA is the prices that previous companies have put on it. King was £45/$62 per bottle and PhosphaMuscle was £60/$83 per bottle, both used Mediator and both only lasted a 4 weeks. Standardized PA is still one of the best supplements I've taken, but because of the price, most people won't have even tried it.
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sns8778
Board Sponsor
I don't remember the raw material prices exactly but I remember they were very expensive. It would probably be 40ish or so even from us because of how much it costs to make.
One thing that stopped us in the past was some brands mislabeling. Some were trying to pass off the total amount of Phosphatidic Acid material as active content when it wasn't. I think they cracked down on that now and got most to clean it up.
I'll re-visit the pricing on it and glad to look into it.
If you don't mind, can you post this idea in the 'What would people like to see from us in 2021' thread so we can see what other people think to?
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I haven't read up on the studies in a long time. From the best of my memory, it looked good but inconclusive. If we were to do one, I'd have to look back and read up on it more. Back then, we held off for several reasons - I wanted to see if real life feedback was going to be good; the price; and what I mentioned above about some companies trying to play it off like they were offering x amount of actual Phosphatidic Acid when they were really just offering x amount of powder and the actual Phosphatidic Acid content was 50%. So from a competitive perspective, it looked like they were offering more than they were and so many people didn't realize it.
Slims
Well-known member
I think I did post about PA in that thread, but I will repost the idea in again to make sure.
I think SNS has the fan base and the reputation to make a success of anything they bring out, and with no other real Mediator PA products out there they'd definitely have most of the PA market to themselves.
@Boonfly8, in studies PA activated mTor much more than regular l-leucine and anecdotally it feels different.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Thank you. I appreciate it. I know that we don't have better marketing than those big companies but on the other side of things, we don't need to sell an insane amount of bottles per month to make it worth it for us to do something either.
That's something I really hope that we can work on this year is trying to get the name out there more and more people familiar with us.
Slims
Well-known member
I still don't understand why the "big" companies are the big companies. I don't mean to diss any of the big companies, but SNS, BLR, CEL etc produce incredible products that actually work, but yet it's MuscleTech, BPI and Optimum Nutrition that you see branded everywhere.... With let's face it, nothing exactly special.
Boonfly8
Member
You have to ask yourself what % of the population actually care about studies,correct dosing , and effectiveness vs the marketing label and pitch. ...just go to your commercial gym and see how many ppl actually bench correctly
Slims
Well-known member
My training and gains got much better when I switched from buying off bodybuilding . com to StrongSupplementShop and PowerMyself. It just baffles me how most people just buy rubbish from the bigger names for years with no improvement and are are happy to not progress as fast or at all
sns8778
Board Sponsor
The way I explain it is that we are supplement companies competing with big marketing companies that just happen to sell supplements. It's about how many people know about a brand and their products and a lot of people go for fancy labeling or what this or that bodybuilder or influencer says than actual studies and straightforward honesty.
Many of the big companies products cost less to make and they still sell them for more. That increased margin allows for more marketing which equals more people knowing about them. And that they are great at marketing. I love the products, the science, and helping people but I'm not a great marketer. I'm not someone that wants to be on camera or video; I'm actually a pretty quiet and shy person.
Slims
Well-known member
For a supplement company with not much branding your supplements get a hell of a lot of love on this forum. It must be a great sign that a smaller company like SNS does so well mostly by word of mouth and letting the supplements speak for themselves.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
In theory it should be fine. They say they use Mediator Phosphatidic Acid.
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
Priceplow recommends a lecithin supplement called Fearn Lecithin Granules. According to the label it has 1200mg of phosphatic acid per serving. It would be easy to add that in a shake. It's also only around $8.
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RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
I searched for "MEDIATOR" and for "MEDIATOR® PHOSPHATIDIC ACID" in the Invalid Link Removed and it's not listed there as a supplement. So, either they'll pulling a con or it's one of those "patent pending" type situation. I guess "trademark pending" maybe?
It might be interesting as a growth enhancer. You could sell it by itself, or with stuff like BetaTOR, Beta alanine, creatine-o-phosphate and stuff like that. Or you could throw some epicatechin and make it a real growth type supplement. Of course, all that stuff would make it more expensive for the consumer.
It might be interesting as a growth enhancer. You could sell it by itself, or with stuff like BetaTOR, Beta alanine, creatine-o-phosphate and stuff like that. Or you could throw some epicatechin and make it a real growth type supplement. Of course, all that stuff would make it more expensive for the consumer.
Darkhorse192
Well-known member
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This Doug's new(er) product...it is $70.00. I would probably consider it if it were $25.00. I used both PhosphaMuscle and King V1 when they were out and definitely did not see enough to justify these prices. However, if I was forced to buy a PA product I would probably try this one before others.
This Doug's new(er) product...it is $70.00. I would probably consider it if it were $25.00. I used both PhosphaMuscle and King V1 when they were out and definitely did not see enough to justify these prices. However, if I was forced to buy a PA product I would probably try this one before others.
Slims
Well-known member
I think the main problem was cost. At £1.96/$2.64 per serving, it's just too expensive for most to even consider trying it. There was also the confusion of taking it everyday or on workout days only and although there were immediate temporary results, the really good gains to really "show" after the first month/bottle.
Results from both the studies and people who took the real stuff properly were great, but as I said above, it was just too expensive to justify after a while.
semtex
Member
DPS nutrition has a good discount for 11 Bravo
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
I don't know why you wouldn't just take the soy lecithin with 1200mg of PA in it for $8 and add 1 serving size to your shake everyday. Why overcomplicate things and spend so much money on a supplement that has the PA isolated?
EDIT: This has been proven incorrect. See the response from NOW Foods down below
EDIT: This has been proven incorrect. See the response from NOW Foods down below
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Slims
Well-known member
One reason would be the extra calories, which some would find hard to fit in during a cut/fat loss phase.
The second reason would be the non-standardization, which can sometimes make all of the difference.
The third reason might be because all of the studies done on PA supplementation that prove it's effectiveness were done with standardized PA.
chainsaw
Well-known member
Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?
Slims
Well-known member
Another valid reason to use a supplement over SL granules here. Soy is also common allergen and cause of bloating too.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
There is no estrogenic impact of that dose of lecithin granules. Somewhere when the granules first became popular, I did the math and posted it somewhere. It’s not a concern at all. Not all soy products are equal in that regard.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
If soy is an allergen for you, you still probably couldn’t use Mediator, which is still derived from soy IIRC, just more concentrated for PA. Just like if you’re allergic to milk you probably shouldn’t have whey protein, even if it’s more refined than whole milk. I also recall that other non-soy sources of PA may not have been as effective, at least in limited animal studies, if I recall correctly. It’s been YEARS since this was the HUGE thing we went into major depth on, so I may have to double check some things.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
It's not a con. Would need to search the patent database instead of trademark database.
I did a quick search and here are a couple: United States Patent 10,869,843 and US20120141448A1
Their patents are usage patents. So you could for example buy a generic material and call it Phosphatidic Acid but you literally could not make any claim about building strength or lean muscle on it. And the cost of generic is cheaper, but no exceptionally less so.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
When you get into things like Creatinol O Phosphate or Beta Alanine it would require so many capsules to include them. But we make Creatinol O Phosphate and Beta Alanine in bulk capsules that could be stacked with it for anyone interested.
It would also make for a great stack with Epi-Plex. But adding the correct daily dose of Epicatechin in with Phosphatidic Acid would be way too expensive. I think it would be better to try to make it as inexpensive as possible and let the people that want to stack them buy them separately.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I would definitely not say that. The reason is that their product is not labeled correctly or legally and that always makes me question things.
Their product says Mediator (containing Phosphatidic Acid) but doesn't say how much. If its actually Mediator, it should be 50% so why not specify that? The answer is likely because they are trying to be deceptive and make the customer think they are getting 1500 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid.
If you follow my posts, you'll know I basically never speak negatively of any brand, but that's some shady stuff right there.
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
The estrogens from soy can both attach to the estrogen receptor and block it. It's good for the heart and has other positive benefits, but as mentioned by @muscleupcrohn there is virtually no estrogen in lecithin. The calories are pretty miniscule, maybe 120 calories per serving and it's all fat's that are made up of inositol, choline, and other ingredients that are very good for your brain. Lecithin doesn't get stored as fat like regular fats because it's made up of so many fat soluble vitamins.
I know I'm posting a lot of articles from Will Brink, but he has it covered in terms of these topics.
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Soy lecithin is in practically all supplements that have to be blended or mixed. Because it's fat soluble it makes other ingredients blend better. Check your protein jug, I'd bet money it's listed as an ingredient. It's in TONS and TONS of food products.
If you're allergic to soy, that's a whole other issue, but causing bloating I haven't heard. You could always buy sunflower lecithin instead if that were an issue. I emailed Now Foods earlier and asked if they knew how much PA was in their soy/sunflower lecithin and I'll post back if I get an answer (usually they're really good about answering questions like that).
sns8778
Board Sponsor
This post isn't meant to have anything to do with Phosphatidic Acid. But as someone allergic to soy, I wanted to clarify a big misconception about soy allergies. My post isn't meant to contradict yours, just to add more details.
There is a soy allergy where the person is allergic to most all soy. For people with this allergy, some can still eat the amount of soy lecithin used in basic foods without issue. That would vary by the person. But even if they could, their ability to do so would NOT likely translate into being able to consume a sizeable amount of soy lecithin.
Then there is the type of soy allergy that I have that is life threatening and that's to soy protein. (People can have a life threatening allergy to all soy but its more rare).
For milk, for many years, people thought that all milk allergies were related to lactose (milk sugar) but that isn't the case. People can be allergic to lactose, to whey, to casein, and possibly other components in milk.
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
3 softgels of Now soy lecithin is 30 calories. And like I mentioned above, the fat content is mostly made up of nutrients - like fish oil. It's not something you have to worry about when calculating your fat intake or calories.
Slims
Well-known member
This is always the better option for supplements like these. It might mean more bottles in your cupboard but being able to customize/personalise your own stack is incredibly helpful.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
This is all very fair. Of course any individual with an allergy to soy should consult their physician before taking any soy supplement, unless they already did before and know what amount and type of soy then can have. Same with milk products, etc.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I think it was price and impatience. It's expensive to take and its something that needs to be used consistently for best results. It was so over-hyped that many took it was unrealistic expectations.
The true expectation in my opinion is that you will likely see some difference in the first bottle but the big more noticeable differences would come over a 2 to 3+ month time frame. And user feedback seems to support that.
I remember the debate on daily versus only on workout days. I honestly didn't understand that because to me, it pretty clearly needs to be used daily for best results. I think a lot of people short change themselves and don't allow their supplements to give them maximum results bc they don't use them consistently.
Agreed - excess calories, non-standardization, and lack of studies on the the non-standardized type. Also allergies.
Some say it would, some say it wouldn't. The honest answer is that it would likely depend on the person and how sensitive they are to it. For the average person, likely no detriment. But for some, it could.
Agreed. I just posted about soy allergies above. I have a life threatening allergy to soy protein.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Absolutely. People with food allergies need to find a good allergy specialist that knows the differences and doesn't just blanket say they're allergic to _______.
For example, for years I tested negative for the gluten/Celiac test. Then when they started testing for non-Celiac gluten allergies, I tested positive and removing it from my diet helped a lot of different things.
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
Well, patented stuff doesn't automatically mean it's trademarked. To have the little ® beside the name of the product it has to be trademarked with the US trademark office. Here's the patent you're talking about:
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But, I get what you're saying. But you could still buy it in bulk and sell it, just not make any claims about it. I see tons of supplement companies that do that. They just expect consumers to know what it's for.
Btw, interestingly enough, the patent specifically says "Creatine is co-administered orally to increase the muscle-building and strength effect." So, if you wanted to go down that road, you could sell it without creatine and then say you're not in violation of the patent because there's no creatine in it. That is, if you have enough fees for lawyers.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Thank you. I missed your reply here but wanted to quote it and say thank you. We make great products, I love helping people, and I always try to listen to what people want and give people what they want. And for formulas, I like to go the route of providing people with ingredients that have clinically been shown to work rather than try to be the first out with a new ingredient and things like that. It's nothing wrong with the companies that take that approach; to me, I just prefer to make sure products have the clinical backing to work. I never want to be seen as coming out with something new or first and treating customers like a guinea pig to see how it works. That's why there are times that there are ingredients we know about or are interested in, but we have no problem with other companies going first with to see how the results play out in the real world. I hope that makes sense.
RIPDanDuchaine
Active member
Here's a quote from examine.com that further explains what lecithin is and what it's composed of.
Lecithin is a term used to refer to a glycerol molecule with two fatty acids attached to it with the last open binding position being bound to a phosphatidic acid molecule, which can then be further bound to other molecules such as amino acids. The term 'soy lecithin' is used to described the lecithin from soy, and it is sometimes a vessel for Invalid Link Removed (PS) due to it not requiring solvent extraction (Internal reportInvalid Link Removed) and has a phosphatidylcholine,Invalid Link Removed phosphatidulethanolamine,Invalid Link Removed and phosphatidylinositolInvalid Link Removed content as well.Invalid Link Removed
It also has a complete breakdown of what lecithin is made of and what's in it.
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Lecithin is a term used to refer to a glycerol molecule with two fatty acids attached to it with the last open binding position being bound to a phosphatidic acid molecule, which can then be further bound to other molecules such as amino acids. The term 'soy lecithin' is used to described the lecithin from soy, and it is sometimes a vessel for Invalid Link Removed (PS) due to it not requiring solvent extraction (Internal reportInvalid Link Removed) and has a phosphatidylcholine,Invalid Link Removed phosphatidulethanolamine,Invalid Link Removed and phosphatidylinositolInvalid Link Removed content as well.Invalid Link Removed
It also has a complete breakdown of what lecithin is made of and what's in it.
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