Did a little research and planning to try the PA with x gels. Saw that mediator PA was a big player in this. For those that tried PA what brand did you get and how’d it workout for you?
I think it's the patent and/or the standardization method used by Mediator. I've taken PA many times and it's better than creatine for strength gains, but they're far better taken together. PA also adds a muscle fullness that I've not experienced on anything else.they discontinued phosphamuscle. wonder why pa is so exp...........isnt the strength gains similar to creatine?
King was great. At least the OG one. Didn’t they drop Mediator for some other form or something?I think it's the patent and/or the standardization method used by Mediator. I've taken PA many times and it's better than creatine for strength gains, but they're far better taken together. PA also adds a muscle fullness that I've not experienced on anything else.
Cutler Nutrition's King is was one of the OG PA supplements, if you can get your hands on it?
I'm not too sure, I switched to PhosphaMuscle after a year or so on King and then Soy Lecithin granules when I could no longer afford the standardized stuff. I'm really hoping @sns8778 drops a PA supplement as one of the 12 new SNS releases.King was great. At least the OG one. Didn’t they drop Mediator for some other form or something?
We haven't been asked for a Phosphatidic Acid supplement in a long time. So it wouldn't be during the 12 weeks of new releases, but I would be open to doing one if enough people wanted it.I'm not too sure, I switched to PhosphaMuscle after a year or so on King and then Soy Lecithin granules when I could no longer afford the standardized stuff. I'm really hoping @sns8778 drops a PA supplement as one of the 12 new SNS releases.
Mediator is expensive, but if it was worth it I'd guess that the R&D team at SNS could get their own PA patent.We haven't been asked for a Phosphatidic Acid supplement in a long time. So it wouldn't be during the 12 weeks of new releases, but I would be open to doing one if enough people wanted it.
I hadn't followed it in so long. I know about Mediator but haven't even looked at any others. I thought the Mediator guys had the patents pretty locked up on this.
I think that the Mediator people have the patents pretty wrapped up for Phosphatidic Acid. To my knowledge, anyone that wants to do one would need to license it from them.Mediator is expensive, but if it was worth it I'd guess that the R&D team at SNS could get their own PA patent.
OR
Add a decent amount of soy lecithin into a daily ergogenic supplement.
I think what puts a lot of people off of PA is the prices that previous companies have put on it. King was £45/$62 per bottle and PhosphaMuscle was £60/$83 per bottle, both used Mediator and both only lasted a 4 weeks. Standardized PA is still one of the best supplements I've taken, but because of the price, most people won't have even tried it.If we were to do one, we would do it the right way and go with the Mediator. But I wonder how well any of them really sell. I know some of the big brand ones sell bc anything by them will sell to a degree; but I was surprised to see Cutler discontinue King (at least to my knowledge it looks like they did).
I don't remember the raw material prices exactly but I remember they were very expensive. It would probably be 40ish or so even from us because of how much it costs to make.I think what puts a lot of people off of PA is the prices that previous companies have put on it. King was £45/$62 per bottle and PhosphaMuscle was £60/$83 per bottle, both used Mediator and both only lasted a 4 weeks. Standardized PA is still one of the best supplements I've taken, but because of the price, most people won't have even tried it.
I haven't read up on the studies in a long time. From the best of my memory, it looked good but inconclusive. If we were to do one, I'd have to look back and read up on it more. Back then, we held off for several reasons - I wanted to see if real life feedback was going to be good; the price; and what I mentioned above about some companies trying to play it off like they were offering x amount of actual Phosphatidic Acid when they were really just offering x amount of powder and the actual Phosphatidic Acid content was 50%. So from a competitive perspective, it looked like they were offering more than they were and so many people didn't realize it.There is 2 studies that said “maybe it helps” with building muscle. We know it activates mTor but so does Leucine?
I think I did post about PA in that thread, but I will repost the idea in again to make sure.One thing that stopped us in the past was some brands mislabeling. Some were trying to pass off the total amount of Phosphatidic Acid material as active content when it wasn't. I think they cracked down on that now and got most to clean it up.
I'll re-visit the pricing on it and glad to look into it.
If you don't mind, can you post this idea in the 'What would people like to see from us in 2021' thread so we can see what other people think to?
Thank you. I appreciate it. I know that we don't have better marketing than those big companies but on the other side of things, we don't need to sell an insane amount of bottles per month to make it worth it for us to do something either.I think I did post about PA in that thread, but I will repost the idea in again to make sure.
I think SNS has the fan base and the reputation to make a success of anything they bring out, and with no other real Mediator PA products out there they'd definitely have most of the PA market to themselves.
@Boonfly8, in studies PA activated mTor much more than regular l-leucine and anecdotally it feels different.
I still don't understand why the "big" companies are the big companies. I don't mean to diss any of the big companies, but SNS, BLR, CEL etc produce incredible products that actually work, but yet it's MuscleTech, BPI and Optimum Nutrition that you see branded everywhere.... With let's face it, nothing exactly special.Thank you. I appreciate it. I know that we don't have better marketing than those big companies but on the other side of things, we don't need to sell an insane amount of bottles per month to make it worth it for us to do something either.
That's something I really hope that we can work on this year is trying to get the name out there more and more people familiar with us.
You have to ask yourself what % of the population actually care about studies,correct dosing , and effectiveness vs the marketing label and pitch. ...just go to your commercial gym and see how many ppl actually bench correctlyI still don't understand why the "big" companies are the big companies. I don't mean to diss any of the big companies, but SNS, BLR, CEL etc produce incredible products that actually work, but yet it's MuscleTech, BPI and Optimum Nutrition that you see branded everywhere.... With let's face it, nothing exactly special.
My training and gains got much better when I switched from buying off bodybuilding . com to StrongSupplementShop and PowerMyself. It just baffles me how most people just buy rubbish from the bigger names for years with no improvement and are are happy to not progress as fast or at allYou have to ask yourself what % of the population actually care about studies,correct dosing , and effectiveness vs the marketing label and pitch. ...just go to your commercial gym and see how many ppl actually bench correctly
The way I explain it is that we are supplement companies competing with big marketing companies that just happen to sell supplements. It's about how many people know about a brand and their products and a lot of people go for fancy labeling or what this or that bodybuilder or influencer says than actual studies and straightforward honesty.I still don't understand why the "big" companies are the big companies. I don't mean to diss any of the big companies, but SNS, BLR, CEL etc produce incredible products that actually work, but yet it's MuscleTech, BPI and Optimum Nutrition that you see branded everywhere.... With let's face it, nothing exactly special.
For a supplement company with not much branding your supplements get a hell of a lot of love on this forum. It must be a great sign that a smaller company like SNS does so well mostly by word of mouth and letting the supplements speak for themselves.The way I explain it is that we are supplement companies competing with big marketing companies that just happen to sell supplements. It's about how many people know about a brand and their products and a lot of people go for fancy labeling or what this or that bodybuilder or influencer says than actual studies and straightforward honesty.
In theory it should be fine. They say they use Mediator Phosphatidic Acid.How is Redcon1 11 Bravo for a PA product?
It might be interesting as a growth enhancer. You could sell it by itself, or with stuff like BetaTOR, Beta alanine, creatine-o-phosphate and stuff like that. Or you could throw some epicatechin and make it a real growth type supplement. Of course, all that stuff would make it more expensive for the consumer.We haven't been asked for a Phosphatidic Acid supplement in a long time. So it wouldn't be during the 12 weeks of new releases, but I would be open to doing one if enough people wanted it.
I hadn't followed it in so long. I know about Mediator but haven't even looked at any others. I thought the Mediator guys had the patents pretty locked up on this.
I think the main problem was cost. At £1.96/$2.64 per serving, it's just too expensive for most to even consider trying it. There was also the confusion of taking it everyday or on workout days only and although there were immediate temporary results, the really good gains to really "show" after the first month/bottle.PA was all the rage at one point in time, then it fell off. Is it just the cost or did results not pan out?
DPS nutrition has a good discount for 11 BravoHow is Redcon1 11 Bravo for a PA product?
One reason would be the extra calories, which some would find hard to fit in during a cut/fat loss phase.I don't know why you wouldn't just take the soy lecithin with 1200mg of PA in it for $8 and add 1 serving size to your shake everyday. Why overcomplicate things and spend so much money on a supplement that has the PA isolated?
Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?I don't know why you wouldn't just take the soy lecithin with 1200mg of PA in it for $8 and add 1 serving size to your shake everyday. Why overcomplicate things and spend so much money on a supplement that has the PA isolated?
Another valid reason to use a supplement over SL granules here. Soy is also common allergen and cause of bloating too.Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?
There is no estrogenic impact of that dose of lecithin granules. Somewhere when the granules first became popular, I did the math and posted it somewhere. It’s not a concern at all. Not all soy products are equal in that regard.Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?
If soy is an allergen for you, you still probably couldn’t use Mediator, which is still derived from soy IIRC, just more concentrated for PA. Just like if you’re allergic to milk you probably shouldn’t have whey protein, even if it’s more refined than whole milk. I also recall that other non-soy sources of PA may not have been as effective, at least in limited animal studies, if I recall correctly. It’s been YEARS since this was the HUGE thing we went into major depth on, so I may have to double check some things.Another valid reason to use a supplement over SL granules here. Soy is also common allergen and cause of bloating too.
It's not a con. Would need to search the patent database instead of trademark database.I searched for "MEDIATOR" and for "MEDIATOR® PHOSPHATIDIC ACID" in the US trademark database and it's not listed there as a supplement. So, either they'll pulling a con or it's one of those "patent pending" type situation. I guess "trademark pending" maybe?
When you get into things like Creatinol O Phosphate or Beta Alanine it would require so many capsules to include them. But we make Creatinol O Phosphate and Beta Alanine in bulk capsules that could be stacked with it for anyone interested.It might be interesting as a growth enhancer. You could sell it by itself, or with stuff like BetaTOR, Beta alanine, creatine-o-phosphate and stuff like that. Or you could throw some epicatechin and make it a real growth type supplement. Of course, all that stuff would make it more expensive for the consumer.
I would definitely not say that. The reason is that their product is not labeled correctly or legally and that always makes me question things.Idk I think I’m gonna try a bottle. Was able to pick up a project so I kinda want to treat myself lol. Y’all say HPN p7 us the best?
The estrogens from soy can both attach to the estrogen receptor and block it. It's good for the heart and has other positive benefits, but as mentioned by @muscleupcrohn there is virtually no estrogen in lecithin. The calories are pretty miniscule, maybe 120 calories per serving and it's all fat's that are made up of inositol, choline, and other ingredients that are very good for your brain. Lecithin doesn't get stored as fat like regular fats because it's made up of so many fat soluble vitamins.Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?
Soy lecithin is in practically all supplements that have to be blended or mixed. Because it's fat soluble it makes other ingredients blend better. Check your protein jug, I'd bet money it's listed as an ingredient. It's in TONS and TONS of food products.Another valid reason to use a supplement over SL granules here. Soy is also common allergen and cause of bloating too.
This post isn't meant to have anything to do with Phosphatidic Acid. But as someone allergic to soy, I wanted to clarify a big misconception about soy allergies. My post isn't meant to contradict yours, just to add more details.If soy is an allergen for you, you still probably couldn’t use Mediator, which is still derived from soy IIRC, just more concentrated for PA. Just like if you’re allergic to milk you probably shouldn’t have whey protein, even if it’s more refined than whole milk. I also recall that other non-soy sources of PA may not have been as effective, at least in limited animal studies, if I recall correctly. It’s been YEARS since this was the HUGE thing we went into major depth on, so I may have to double check some things.
3 softgels of Now soy lecithin is 30 calories. And like I mentioned above, the fat content is mostly made up of nutrients - like fish oil. It's not something you have to worry about when calculating your fat intake or calories.One reason would be the extra calories, which some would find hard to fit in during a cut/fat loss phase.
The second reason would be the non-standardization, which can sometimes make all of the difference.
The third reason might be because all of the studies done on PA supplementation that prove it's effectiveness were done with standardized PA.
This is always the better option for supplements like these. It might mean more bottles in your cupboard but being able to customize/personalise your own stack is incredibly helpful.I think it would be better to try to make it as inexpensive as possible and let the people that want to stack them buy them separately.
This is all very fair. Of course any individual with an allergy to soy should consult their physician before taking any soy supplement, unless they already did before and know what amount and type of soy then can have. Same with milk products, etc.This post isn't meant to have anything to do with Phosphatidic Acid. But as someone allergic to soy, I wanted to clarify a big misconception about soy allergies. My post isn't meant to contradict yours, just to add more details.
There is a soy allergy where the person is allergic to most all soy. For people with this allergy, some can still eat the amount of soy lecithin used in basic foods without issue. That would vary by the person. But even if they could, their ability to do so would NOT likely translate into being able to consume a sizeable amount of soy lecithin.
Then there is the type of soy allergy that I have that is life threatening and that's to soy protein. (People can have a life threatening allergy to all soy but its more rare).
For milk, for many years, people thought that all milk allergies were related to lactose (milk sugar) but that isn't the case. People can be allergic to lactose, to whey, to casein, and possibly other components in milk.
I think it was price and impatience. It's expensive to take and its something that needs to be used consistently for best results. It was so over-hyped that many took it was unrealistic expectations.PA was all the rage at one point in time, then it fell off. Is it just the cost or did results not pan out?
I remember the debate on daily versus only on workout days. I honestly didn't understand that because to me, it pretty clearly needs to be used daily for best results. I think a lot of people short change themselves and don't allow their supplements to give them maximum results bc they don't use them consistently.I think the main problem was cost. At £1.96/$2.64 per serving, it's just too expensive for most to even consider trying it. There was also the confusion of taking it everyday or on workout days only and although there were immediate temporary results, the really good gains to really "show" after the first month/bottle.
Results from both the studies and people who took the real stuff properly were great, but as I said above, it was just too expensive to justify after a while.
Agreed - excess calories, non-standardization, and lack of studies on the the non-standardized type. Also allergies.One reason would be the extra calories, which some would find hard to fit in during a cut/fat loss phase.
The second reason would be the non-standardization, which can sometimes make all of the difference.
The third reason might be because all of the studies done on PA supplementation that prove it's effectiveness were done with standardized PA.
Some say it would, some say it wouldn't. The honest answer is that it would likely depend on the person and how sensitive they are to it. For the average person, likely no detriment. But for some, it could.Above it was stated the extra calories, but also, I am wondering wouldn't extra soy effect you negatively as far as estrogen?
Agreed. I just posted about soy allergies above. I have a life threatening allergy to soy protein.Another valid reason to use a supplement over SL granules here. Soy is also common allergen and cause of bloating too.
Absolutely. People with food allergies need to find a good allergy specialist that knows the differences and doesn't just blanket say they're allergic to _______.This is all very fair. Of course any individual with an allergy to soy should consult their physician before taking any soy supplement, unless they already did before and know what amount and type of soy then can have. Same with milk products, etc.
Well, patented stuff doesn't automatically mean it's trademarked. To have the little ® beside the name of the product it has to be trademarked with the US trademark office. Here's the patent you're talking about:It's not a con. Would need to search the patent database instead of trademark database.
I did a quick search and here are a couple: United States Patent 10,869,843 and US20120141448A1
Their patents are usage patents. So you could for example buy a generic material and call it Phosphatidic Acid but you literally could not make any claim about building strength or lean muscle on it. And the cost of generic is cheaper, but no exceptionally less so.
Thank you. I missed your reply here but wanted to quote it and say thank you. We make great products, I love helping people, and I always try to listen to what people want and give people what they want. And for formulas, I like to go the route of providing people with ingredients that have clinically been shown to work rather than try to be the first out with a new ingredient and things like that. It's nothing wrong with the companies that take that approach; to me, I just prefer to make sure products have the clinical backing to work. I never want to be seen as coming out with something new or first and treating customers like a guinea pig to see how it works. That's why there are times that there are ingredients we know about or are interested in, but we have no problem with other companies going first with to see how the results play out in the real world. I hope that makes sense.For a supplement company with not much branding your supplements get a hell of a lot of love on this forum. It must be a great sign that a smaller company like SNS does so well mostly by word of mouth and letting the supplements speak for themselves.
It also has a complete breakdown of what lecithin is made of and what's in it.Soy lecithin is lecithin (a category of molecules based on a certain structure) that is derived from soy, conferring a few phosphatidic acid related structures (the most common being phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylcholine, PS and PC respectively)