What brand of phosphatic acid do you get?

sns8778

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Well, patented stuff doesn't automatically mean it's trademarked. To have the little ® beside the name of the product it has to be trademarked with the US trademark office. Here's the patent you're talking about:


But, I get what you're saying. But you could still buy it in bulk and sell it, just not make any claims about it. I see tons of supplement companies that do that. They just expect consumers to know what it's for.

Btw, interestingly enough, the patent specifically says "Creatine is co-administered orally to increase the muscle-building and strength effect." So, if you wanted to go down that road, you could sell it without creatine and then say you're not in violation of the patent because there's no creatine in it. That is, if you have enough fees for lawyers. ;)
I'm not being disagreeable at all. I just wanted to explain this side of things bc its a side of things we deal with regularly.

Trademarked wouldn't mean the ingredient itself, it would be their name for it. For example, the trademark would be on a branded ingredient name like Mediator, or ActiGin, AstraGin, etc.

A patent would either be on the ingredient itself (extremely hard to get), specialty constituents, a specific standardization process, or on specific uses for an ingredient. In the case Mediator, it would cover any muscle building or strength claims. So if you were to do a generic one, you couldn't make any claims on it, so you basically couldn't market your product.

The sell it in bulk and not make claims may work for more well known ingredients but I don't think enough people know about Phosphatidic Acid to work with this. And plus, the price of the generic material is not a lot cheaper. Don't get me wrong, its cheaper, not enough cheaper to make it worth not being able to market your product. Plus, a lot of the generic material is only 20% standardization rather than 50%.

The one patent is in conjunction with creatine but the other is without creatine. So they now have it covered both ways.

I hope all that makes sense.
 

Slims

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Thank you. I missed your reply here but wanted to quote it and say thank you. We make great products, I love helping people, and I always try to listen to what people want and give people what they want. And for formulas, I like to go the route of providing people with ingredients that have clinically been shown to work rather than try to be the first out with a new ingredient and things like that. It's nothing wrong with the companies that take that approach; to me, I just prefer to make sure products have the clinical backing to work. I never want to be seen as coming out with something new or first and treating customers like a guinea pig to see how it works. That's why there are times that there are ingredients we know about or are interested in, but we have no problem with other companies going first with to see how the results play out in the real world. I hope that makes sense.
Investing in supplements that work is far more important than branding. For example... The people I've recommended SNS supplements to are still taking SNS supplements now, two-three years later and that's here in the UK where the products are harder to get and are more expensive.
 

mase1

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Used lecithin and had great fullness and vascularity, with some strength. Problem was ridiculously bloated in stomach. Wondering if not an issue with just powder?
 

Slims

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Used lecithin and had great fullness and vascularity, with some strength. Problem was ridiculously bloated in stomach. Wondering if not an issue with just powder?
This was a point I bought up earlier. Soy based meat substitutes painfully bloat me out, but I had no issues at all with the PA caps I used (Cutler's King and MuscleTech's PhosphaMuscle)
 
muscleupcrohn

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I think it was price and impatience. It's expensive to take and its something that needs to be used consistently for best results. It was so over-hyped that many took it was unrealistic expectations.

The true expectation in my opinion is that you will likely see some difference in the first bottle but the big more noticeable differences would come over a 2 to 3+ month time frame. And user feedback seems to support that.



I remember the debate on daily versus only on workout days. I honestly didn't understand that because to me, it pretty clearly needs to be used daily for best results. I think a lot of people short change themselves and don't allow their supplements to give them maximum results bc they don't use them consistently.




Agreed - excess calories, non-standardization, and lack of studies on the the non-standardized type. Also allergies.



Some say it would, some say it wouldn't. The honest answer is that it would likely depend on the person and how sensitive they are to it. For the average person, likely no detriment. But for some, it could.



Agreed. I just posted about soy allergies above. I have a life threatening allergy to soy protein.
I don’t know if a lack of studies on non-standardized PA would really be a major detriment. The calories/fat, taste, inconvenience, and potential allergen issue would be the major negatives. I’ve posted in pretty extensive detail before that you can be assured of at least 4% PA from lecithin granules, often 4-7%, so if you aim to get a minimum of 750mg PA assuming 4%, you should have a solid PA supplement, maybe even more PA if it’s closer to 7%. But then you have MORE calories/fat, and more granules to take. Which may be trivial for some people, but annoying or not doable for others. The PC is a nice bonus as well, but there was not enough PS to be relevant IIRC.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Well, patented stuff doesn't automatically mean it's trademarked. To have the little beside the name of the product it has to be trademarked with the US trademark office. Here's the patent you're talking about:


But, I get what you're saying. But you could still buy it in bulk and sell it, just not make any claims about it. I see tons of supplement companies that do that. They just expect consumers to know what it's for.

Btw, interestingly enough, the patent specifically says "Creatine is co-administered orally to increase the muscle-building and strength effect." So, if you wanted to go down that road, you could sell it without creatine and then say you're not in violation of the patent because there's no creatine in it. That is, if you have enough fees for lawyers. ;)
I’m no lawyer, but the points don’t specify that it MUST also include Creatine. So I don’t think you’re correct there.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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I'm not being disagreeable at all. I just wanted to explain this side of things bc its a side of things we deal with regularly.
Sorry! I didn't mean to come off as argumentative, just kind of my thoughts on the whole thing. I'm sure you probably know more about patents and trademarks than I do.

Trademarked wouldn't mean the ingredient itself, it would be their name for it. For example, the trademark would be on a branded ingredient name like Mediator, or ActiGin, AstraGin, etc.
I understand where you're coming from, but doing a search on the US trademark database didn't have anything for Mediator as a dietary supplement. It had brands for Mediator for knives and other weird stuff, and there are live and dead trademarks, but from my understanding, a patented product doesn't automatically give it a trademark, since you're not naming the product in the patent, just how it works. It's just semantics stuff.

A patent would either be on the ingredient itself (extremely hard to get), specialty constituents, a specific standardization process, or on specific uses for an ingredient. In the case Mediator, it would cover any muscle building or strength claims. So if you were to do a generic one, you couldn't make any claims on it, so you basically couldn't market your product.
Well, I understand you as SNS want to market your supplements to consumers, but just from my point of view, I see a ton of supplement companies that have zero marketing for a supplement and just sell the ingredient with the expectation that the consumer will know what it does. For example, I have a bottle of lithium orotate. They can't make any claims on it because of the FDA not allowing claims of curing diseases and yada yada. But, I know what lithium orotate is and what it does, so I just buy it and take it (this was based on a doctor's recommendation just incase you were wondering).

I think it's okay to sell a supplement without a description of what the product does. You basically just say take X mg Y times per day and consult a doctor before taking any supplements, etc, etc. Like Phenibut for example, you can't make any claims about what it does, but consumers know what it is so they buy it. But I can see it from your perspective where you want to market a supplement because it'll have a much better chance of selling if you can make claims of what it does on there.

That's what happened with HMB. It got patented and the price to buy patented HMB is so high it's not affordable to take the required dosage that really gives you good gains.

The sell it in bulk and not make claims may work for more well known ingredients but I don't think enough people know about Phosphatidic Acid to work with this. And plus, the price of the generic material is not a lot cheaper. Don't get me wrong, its cheaper, not enough cheaper to make it worth not being able to market your product. Plus, a lot of the generic material is only 20% standardization rather than 50%.
That's quite a different in standardization. What would the cost to the consumer be though? The Mediator stuff is very expensive, but I assume you have to take less of it. While 20% PA might be cheaper still.

I still think lecithin would be an adequate solution for most people though.

I hope all that makes sense.
Yup! Thanks for the breakdown!

[/QUOTE]
Used lecithin and had great fullness and vascularity, with some strength. Problem was ridiculously bloated in stomach. Wondering if not an issue with just powder?
I've never noticed bloating from lecithin, but I would try sunflower lecithin if you're having issues. It's about the same price and supposedly higher quality.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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I’m no lawyer, but the points don’t specify that it MUST also include Creatine. So I don’t think you’re correct there.
Yeah, I mean you can go over the patent with a fine tooth comb and break it all down. They also mention taking it with plenty of whey protein. So, if you had high priced lawyers and felt like patent busting, theirs might be vulnerable. But, you would be talking $$$$$$ just to take that kind of case to trial.
 
Boonfly8

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Looking at HPN Pa7 product it costs $57 for a bottle. It has a “novel” delivery system but says nothing about PA standardization...

Edit ( NVM this was addressed earlier, see post below)
 
Boonfly8

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I would definitely not say that. The reason is that their product is not labeled correctly or legally and that always makes me question things.

Their product says Mediator (containing Phosphatidic Acid) but doesn't say how much. If its actually Mediator, it should be 50% so why not specify that? The answer is likely because they are trying to be deceptive and make the customer think they are getting 1500 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid.

If you follow my posts, you'll know I basically never speak negatively of any brand, but that's some shady stuff right there.
Yep just saw. Which product on the market is most transparent right now for PA?
 
muscleupcrohn

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Yeah, I mean you can go over the patent with a fine tooth comb and break it all down. They also mention taking it with plenty of whey protein. So, if you had high priced lawyers and felt like patent busting, theirs might be vulnerable. But, you would be talking $$$$$$ just to take that kind of case to trial.
Talking about things it CAN be used with in no way means that anything that doesn’t use it with those things isn’t a violation. I’m also not really sure why you’re also trying to lecture SNS on how to sell, label, and market supplements. I think they know what they’re doing.
 
sns8778

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I understand where you're coming from, but doing a search on the US trademark database didn't have anything for Mediator as a dietary supplement. It had brands for Mediator for knives and other weird stuff, and there are live and dead trademarks, but from my understanding, a patented product doesn't automatically give it a trademark, since you're not naming the product in the patent, just how it works. It's just semantics stuff.

That's quite a different in standardization. What would the cost to the consumer be though? The Mediator stuff is very expensive, but I assume you have to take less of it. While 20% PA might be cheaper still.

I still think lecithin would be an adequate solution for most people though.
The trademark database search engine sucks. But let's say they didn't have it. Even if they didn't, they still own the usage patents meaning that you can't sell the ingredient for that purpose without licensing it from them. And part of the licensing agreement with most branded ingredient suppliers is to use their trademark.

In this case, the generic is not a lot less expensive. The 50% generic is not less expensive enough to make it worth not being able to market the product. And the 20% isn't cheap enough for you to take 2.5 times as much for a lesser price. That's why I would caution people about brands that don't specify 50% Phosphatidic Acid bc if it says something like 'containing phosphatidic acid' you have no idea how much you're getting.
 

Slims

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Yep just saw. Which product on the market is most transparent right now for PA?
I don't think there is one, which is why I recommended it in the big SNS thread.

Edit
Outbreak Nutrition has a supplement containing PA called BUILD, but it's £50/$70 for 20 days worth. At £2.50/$3.50 per day, it's not worth it.
 
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sns8778

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Yeah, I mean you can go over the patent with a fine tooth comb and break it all down. They also mention taking it with plenty of whey protein. So, if you had high priced lawyers and felt like patent busting, theirs might be vulnerable. But, you would be talking $$$$$$ just to take that kind of case to trial.
The time to challenge patents is when they are pending. They are actually pretty strict about the standards for granting them; they aren't easy to get. That's why a lot of 'patent pending's' never wind up getting approved. Once they are approved, the odds of overruling one is slim.

The type of legal fees you're talking about here would be more than the average small to medium sized company owner in this industry makes in a year or more; and would likely lose anyway. Plus, this isn't an ingredient that sells enough volume to ever even possibly be worth it.

Again, not being argumentative, just explaining. (A lot of people have commented over the years how they like me explaining things from an inside the industry perspective so I tend to do that in cases like this. Please don't ever take me as being argumentative; that's never my intention.)
 
sns8778

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Yep just saw. Which product on the market is most transparent right now for PA?
Most of the ones I would trust are excessively marked up to be honest; and some have some things on the labels that I wonder if are errors or intentionally trying to make people think there is more in them than there is. I would have said King by Cutler but I don't think its made anymore. I'll pm you.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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Talking about things it CAN be used with in no way means that anything that doesn’t use it with those things isn’t a violation. I’m also not really sure why you’re also trying to lecture SNS on how to sell, label, and market supplements. I think they know what they’re doing.
That's not my intention at all and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I was just trying to discuss the issues going on in the industry, how everything can be confusing, and having a friendly discussion and debate about the semantics of trademarks and patents. I know sometimes it's hard to tell how it can sound like people are talking down to you online when you're not talking face to face, so again, my apologies, and that wasn't my intention.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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Now replied to my question about how much PA is in their lecithin products. Here's what they had to say:

Thank you for your inquiry. Lecithin is estimated to contain about 6% PA (600 mg per 10g per serving). However, that can vary from batch to batch. We do not regularly test for it.

Thank you,

NOW Foods Product Info
 
sns8778

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Props to NOW for an honest response. That was something else I was going to say is that with granules you likely wouldn't be the same from batch to batch bc that's not what they're really meaning to provide you with as far as active content.
 
sns8778

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Investing in supplements that work is far more important than branding. For example... The people I've recommended SNS supplements to are still taking SNS supplements now, two-three years later and that's here in the UK where the products are harder to get and are more expensive.
I really appreciate that. We definitely need to get the word out more about the brand and the products. I really hope that this year we will be able to do that and also be able to get more UK distributors/retailers.
 

Slims

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I really appreciate that. We definitely need to get the word out more about the brand and the products. I really hope that this year we will be able to do that and also be able to get more UK distributors/retailers.
A slight stray from most of my comments but on the branding side of things, and please don't take this as a bad critisism, but the SNS T-shirts could do with a more direct design in my opinion.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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The trademark database search engine sucks. But let's say they didn't have it. Even if they didn't, they still own the usage patents meaning that you can't sell the ingredient for that purpose without licensing it from them. And part of the licensing agreement with most branded ingredient suppliers is to use their trademark.
I see.

In this case, the generic is not a lot less expensive. The 50% generic is not less expensive enough to make it worth not being able to market the product. And the 20% isn't cheap enough for you to take 2.5 times as much for a lesser price. That's why I would caution people about brands that don't specify 50% Phosphatidic Acid bc if it says something like 'containing phosphatidic acid' you have no idea how much you're getting.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you said the generic was much less expensive. So, yeah, I'd go back to the HMB comparison on this one. It's one of those ingredients that work, but it's just too expensive for you to use to get good gains.

The time to challenge patents is when they are pending. They are actually pretty strict about the standards for granting them; they aren't easy to get. That's why a lot of 'patent pending's' never wind up getting approved. Once they are approved, the odds of overruling one is slim.
Well, we're getting really off topic now, aren't we? 😁

Most of what I know about patents is in the tech world and the problem with patent trolls. This is where a person buys a patent that covers a large swath of technology that's been used and then they sue a ton of people hoping they'll settle. This happens a lot.


There is also an argument against having patents at all, with people saying it slows innovation, and prevents small businesses like yours from competing in an open market.



Again, not being argumentative, just explaining. (A lot of people have commented over the years how they like me explaining things from an inside the industry perspective so I tend to do that in cases like this. Please don't ever take me as being argumentative; that's never my intention.)
I absolutely appreciate it. I thank you for your civil discussion with me and explaining some subjects to me on which I didn't fully understand.

Btw, if you're interested, I have two supplements I've been trying to bring to the market for years. One is a novel appetite stimulant, and the other is a totally natural prohormone found in a certain plant I don't want to mention unless we do an NDA. But, nobody wants appetite stimulants, they want appetite suppressants (is what everyone tells me), and prohormones are too much of a legal hot potato and no one wants to touch it.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Now replied to my question about how much PA is in their lecithin products. Here's what they had to say:
There’s a MASSIVE thread on the topic. IIRC I have cited manufacturer claims as well as CoAs and studies on the PA content of soy lecithin. I’ll try to find it later. The general consensus is 4-7%, often with a 4% minimum.
 
sns8778

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A slight stray from most of my comments but on the branding side of things, and please don't take this as a bad critisism, but the SNS T-shirts could do with a more direct design in my opinion.
The ones on the site are old. We had a ton of them made. We plan on having more made but just hadn't had the capital to put into it - between coming off of sales down bc of Covid and having so much tied up in new products. But as soon as we can, we will have some new designs.
 

Slims

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The ones on the site are old. We had a ton of them made. We plan on having more made but just hadn't had the capital to put into it - between coming off of sales down bc of Covid and having so much tied up in new products. But as soon as we can, we will have some new designs.
I understand that.
I'll definitely be in for some T-shirts and shakers to get more SNS love over here in the UK. I frequently go to about 10 different gyms, so I'll hopefully be able to get a bit more interest 😉
 
Boonfly8

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I think one worthy point to address as well is the fact that the mass population can be categorized into 2 camps, the "no-clue, start guys" and the "in-the-know types". One can say that the first camp they will buy anything that has a sharp label and ridiculous claim but most likely they will be one time customers whether that is due to insufficient knowledge about the product or just the way they are (getting in on the newest and latest). I personally have experience with this as I remember purchasing Twin Labs glutamine caps because the bottle looked so cool back in high school, but did I understand exactly what glutamine did? or the fact that my whey protein shake already has them? No. I just like the bottle and the fact that I am taking something.

The other camp are ppl that can be found in this community where they have been through the learning curve and appreciate research and experience. These are the repeat customers and life-long followers of a good brand.

Which one is more profitable in the long run? I don't know. You may have 80% in the population that don't know sh1t about ingredients but just buy once vs 20% that keeps buying...
 
semtex

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I don't think there is one, which is why I recommended it in the big SNS thread.

Edit
Outbreak Nutrition has a supplement containing PA called BUILD, but it's £50/$70 for 20 days worth. At £2.50/$3.50 per day, it's not worth it.
Redcon1 11-bravo is 64.99 on DPS nutrition but they have a coupon code for 35% off the original price. That's the cheapest I've seen.
 
aaronuconn

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Redcon1 11-bravo is 64.99 on DPS nutrition but they have a coupon code for 35% off the original price. That's the cheapest I've seen.
With Mediator, aren’t we looking for 1500mg, as that yields 750mg PA? Redcon’s label shows 750mg Mediator per serving, which is just 325mg PA?

Maybe I’m wrong
 

Slims

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With Mediator, aren’t we looking for 1500mg, as that yields 750mg PA? Redcon’s label shows 750mg Mediator per serving, which is just 325mg PA?

Maybe I’m wrong
There's 120 caps per bottle, so you'd just have to double dose and take 4 caps per day, which would give you the full 1,500mg of PA. You would get a full 30 days worth per bottle. I don't understand why they've only put 2 caps as a serving size though.
 
Boonfly8

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I was gonna pull the trigger on getting one but it seems none of the products out there list standardization. Or maybe the fact that they use the mediator brand implies 50% standardized PA?
 
sns8778

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I think one worthy point to address as well is the fact that the mass population can be categorized into 2 camps, the "no-clue, start guys" and the "in-the-know types". One can say that the first camp they will buy anything that has a sharp label and ridiculous claim but most likely they will be one time customers whether that is due to insufficient knowledge about the product or just the way they are (getting in on the newest and latest). I personally have experience with this as I remember purchasing Twin Labs glutamine caps because the bottle looked so cool back in high school, but did I understand exactly what glutamine did? or the fact that my whey protein shake already has them? No. I just like the bottle and the fact that I am taking something.

The other camp are ppl that can be found in this community where they have been through the learning curve and appreciate research and experience. These are the repeat customers and life-long followers of a good brand.

Which one is more profitable in the long run? I don't know. You may have 80% in the population that don't know sh1t about ingredients but just buy once vs 20% that keeps buying...
The actual percentage by industry estimates is 95%+ instead of 80%.

And as hard as it might be to believe, many of those 95% are repeat buyers. Some of the best sellers on the market in terms of repeat sales would fall into the category of things like you're referring to. I won't name any names bc I don't like to do that, but it would shock a lot of educated customers in terms of what actually has the best repeat sales.
 
sns8778

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I was gonna pull the trigger on getting one but it seems none of the products out there list standardization. Or maybe the fact that they use the mediator brand implies 50% standardized PA?
If you label a product as Mediator - xxx mg., you are saying that's the amount of total material. Mediator total material is 50% Phosphatidic Acid.
 
sns8778

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With Mediator, aren’t we looking for 1500mg, as that yields 750mg PA? Redcon’s label shows 750mg Mediator per serving, which is just 325mg PA?

Maybe I’m wrong
There's 120 caps per bottle, so you'd just have to double dose and take 4 caps per day, which would give you the full 1,500mg of PA. You would get a full 30 days worth per bottle. I don't understand why they've only put 2 caps as a serving size though.
The problem with Redcon's is that the supplement facts on their website don't match their supplement facts on Amazon.

On their website, the supplement facts say that the serving size is 2 capsules and that there are 30 servings per bottle and says that there is 750 mg. Mediator 50P (std. to Phosphatidic Acid) which by label law would be saying 375 mg. But then the suggested use says to take 1 serving (4 capsules) per day. So the serving size on their directions doesn't match the supplement facts.

Then if you go to Amazon, their supplement facts say that the serving size is 4 capsules and there there are 30 servings per container and that there is 750 mg. Mediator PA (Phosphatidic Acid) which could mean active. It seems like the suggested use on their site actually matches the one on Amazon.

This is likely not intentional on their part. One or the other is likely a new or old version or a typo. Even the largest of companies can overlook things or make mistakes.

But for right now, it makes it to where you don't know if its 750 mg. active or total material.
 
sns8778

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How about this - I'll go ahead and say if there's this much interest, we'll do one. And we'll do it right - 1,500 mg. total Mediator material standardized to 50% Phosphatidic Acid so 750 mg. active. (Now don't expect an unrealistically inexpensive price; this isn't going to be cheap to make. I already know the cost. We'll take a very small margin on this to make it as cost effective as possible for everyone but we're still talking probably a 40'ish price.)

What would anyone like to see in it? (Think inexpensive things bc it costs so much already). Solo is fine, but I do have a couple ideas for things that could be added that wouldn't affect the cost much.

Also, while I'm getting opinions, let me know your opinions on names please - Phosphatidic Acid, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Mediator, Mediator XT, or something fancier? Normally with branded ingredients we like to name the product the branded ingredient name, but I'm not sure if people know the Mediator name that well or if we're better to name it Phosphatidic Acid instead of Mediator.
 
sns8778

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To sum this whole thread up, is basically SNS needs to make a PA product.
Ha. Look at what I just posted literally at the same time you posted this :)
 

alvin1

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why don t you take something else then mediator, like T nation did, when a see 70 $ for a 1500 mediator I say no way !
 
muscleupcrohn

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To the people asking about soy lecithin:

Here's a mega thread on PA, with 62 pages:


And an old quote of mine:
Those numbers tend to be estimated. It is very, very rare for all lecithin granules to be standardized for PA content; typically if they're standardized for anything it's total phosphadite content, and they'll have a range of PA content that's typically between 4-7%. I have seen this on numerous COAs and product-spec sheets, even for ones that list 7-8+% PA on the label. I'd aim to get at least 750mg PA, calculated with 4% PA, that way you know you should be getting at least the studied 750mg. That comes out to 18.75g lecithin granules, or about 2.5 tbsp.
Also:

Liquid lecithin seems to have a bit less PA than de-oiled lecithin granules, with American Lecithin Company listing the PA contents as 5% and 7% respectively. Since PA in the granules tends to be a range of 4-7%, I'd figure the liquid is (4-7%)x(5/7), or ~3-5%.[/qoute]
http://www.americanlecithin.com/lecithin_2009.pdf

As for estrogen:
Actual research and science will show that estrogen issues aren't a relevant concern. Not all soy is created equal I guess you could say. The woman you talked to is, quite frankly, completely wrong, and should really know better if she's really getting her masters in nutrition. Here's one of my old posts on the topc (it gets brought up at least once a month or so it seems):

According to the USDA, soy lecithin contains an average of 15.7mg isoflavones per 100g.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/80400525/Data/isoflav/Isoflav_R2.pdf

And from examine.com:
Soy does not appear to significantly affect testosterone levels in moderation (1-2 servings of soy food daily, less than 25g of soy protein from non-concentrate sources), and seems to be able to adversely affect testosterone levels when superloaded (enough so that the equol issue is moot; around 100mg isoflavones daily). Between moderation and excess, there is a grey area that is dependent on whether or not one is able to produce equol from daidzein. These numbers do not apply to soy protein concentrate, which has negligible isoflavone content from ethanol extraction.
 
aaronuconn

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How about this - I'll go ahead and say if there's this much interest, we'll do one. And we'll do it right - 1,500 mg. total Mediator material standardized to 50% Phosphatidic Acid so 750 mg. active. (Now don't expect an unrealistically inexpensive price; this isn't going to be cheap to make. I already know the cost. We'll take a very small margin on this to make it as cost effective as possible for everyone but we're still talking probably a 40'ish price.)

What would anyone like to see in it? (Think inexpensive things bc it costs so much already). Solo is fine, but I do have a couple ideas for things that could be added that wouldn't affect the cost much.

Also, while I'm getting opinions, let me know your opinions on names please - Phosphatidic Acid, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Mediator, Mediator XT, or something fancier? Normally with branded ingredients we like to name the product the branded ingredient name, but I'm not sure if people know the Mediator name that well or if we're better to name it Phosphatidic Acid instead of Mediator.
1500mg Phosphatidic Acid
300mg Apigenin
Bioperine & Astragin

Phosphatidic Acid XT
 

mase1

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So sunflower lecithin same PA content? Maybe same results but better on my stomach?
 

Slims

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How about this - I'll go ahead and say if there's this much interest, we'll do one. And we'll do it right - 1,500 mg. total Mediator material standardized to 50% Phosphatidic Acid so 750 mg. active. (Now don't expect an unrealistically inexpensive price; this isn't going to be cheap to make. I already know the cost. We'll take a very small margin on this to make it as cost effective as possible for everyone but we're still talking probably a 40'ish price.)

What would anyone like to see in it? (Think inexpensive things bc it costs so much already). Solo is fine, but I do have a couple ideas for things that could be added that wouldn't affect the cost much.
40'ish for a months supply is perfect.

I also think that solo PA would be much better. Just straight up Mediator PA caps at the correct 1,500mg dose and a months worth in one bottle.

Name wise, maybe PA XT or Mediator XT
 
sns8778

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So sunflower lecithin same PA content? Maybe same results but better on my stomach?
I've read it was possibly less BUT also lecithin companies don't generally test the amount in their products bc its not one of the active constituents that they are generally trying to supply people with.
 
sns8778

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If cheaper just powder with a scoop, done.
If you mean just doing Mediator powder versus capsule version, we would definitely do capsule version. It would sell a lot better to the average person and the price difference wouldn't be much. This will be low margin for us anyway bc we'll be trying to supply it at a great price so more people can afford to use it.
 
sns8778

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1500mg Phosphatidic Acid
300mg Apigenin
Bioperine & Astragin

Phosphatidic Acid XT
1500 mg. Mediator/750 mg. Phosphatidic Acid

Astragin makes sense for several reasons with it.

I like Bioperine and it may look good on a label, but do you think it would actually help with Phosphatidic Acid? I can see how it would with Apigenin. But unfortunately, 300 mg. Apigenin would raise the actual cost to make by almost 4.00 per bottle.

I think ActiGin would have good potential with it myself.
 

chainsaw

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Ha. Look at what I just posted literally at the same time you posted this :)
Nice, even if you produce it in a limited run, but it should be well known and advised that a product like this needs to be run at minimum 8 weeks.
 

chainsaw

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1500 mg. Mediator/750 mg. Phosphatidic Acid

Astragin makes sense for several reasons with it.

I like Bioperine and it may look good on a label, but do you think it would actually help with Phosphatidic Acid? I can see how it would with Apigenin. But unfortunately, 300 mg. Apigenin would raise the actual cost to make by almost 4.00 per bottle.

I think ActiGin would have good potential with it myself.
Anything else to help with absorption? I think I read on here one time before that glycerol helped with PA?
 
rugger48

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IDK, I went down a rabbit hole this morning and starting reading about
Phosphatic acid and TMAO. Doesn’t seem like this is a good idea for people concerned about heart health. Am I wrong here?
 

ironkill

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IDK, I went down a rabbit hole this morning and starting reading about
Phosphatic acid and TMAO. Doesn’t seem like this is a good idea for people concerned about heart health. Am I wrong here?
Take some allicin garlic with it. I've read l-carnitine also does this and that was the recommendation to offset tmao from that
 

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