We're a "Nation of cowards"

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Its a part of seeing racism everywhere. You would say its not a good example, but thats just because in the limited space of this conversation that seems logical. But on average, most people aren't logical, and take the easiest explanation for things. And if you are the person who sees racism everywhere, then the easiest explanation is racism.

I do see racism everywhere but it's my logic that lead me to that. And that's not ALL I see. You say that "On average, most people aren't logical." Again, broad generalization. Care to back that up with statistics? If you can't, it's irrelevant to the conversation.
 
I do see racism everywhere but it's my logic that lead me to that. And that's not ALL I see. You say that "On average, most people aren't logical." Again, broad generalization. Care to back that up with statistics? If you can't, it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Can you back anything stated with unbiased statistics ? No. So your logic is being led where you want it to be led. Thats not logic, thats bias as well, just in a different direction. Again, does the statistic of # of teen births by black women being roughly double any other group in America, or the statistic that a black child is more than twice as likely to be raised in a home without a father figure have meaning outside of the statistic itself? No, they are merely statistics.

Here are some statistics showing that a majority of people aren't logical.

512 Obama Voters 11/13/08-11/15/08 MOE +/- 4.4 points

97.1% High School Graduate or higher, 55% College Graduates

Results to 12 simple Multiple Choice Questions

57.4% could NOT correctly say which party controls congress (50/50 shot just by guessing)

81.8% could NOT correctly say Joe Biden quit a previous campaign because of plagiarism (25% chance by guessing)

82.6% could NOT correctly say that Barack Obama won his first election by getting opponents kicked off the ballot (25% chance by guessing)

88.4% could NOT correctly say that Obama said his policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry and make energy rates skyrocket (25% chance by guessing)

56.1% could NOT correctly say Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground (25% chance by guessing).

And

You can deny its existence til the cows come home but that belies the point that not only does it exist but it always has and always will.

Is exactly what they said about witches, and what they said about communists in McCarthy's time. Denying it means its true. And you speak of logic?

I don't state that racism doesn't exist anywhere ever in the USA any longer. But it is no longer a prevalent systematic part of American life, as it was just 50 years ago. Will there always be a chance of bias in any interaction between 2 individuals? Always. Whether it be clothes you are wearing, your haircut, your speech patterns, etc all humans make judgements on whether and how they wish to associate with other people. I believe that at this point (2009) all of those things are far more likely to factor in to how you treat a person you are meeting for the first time more than the color of their skin. Was it true in 1965? no.
 
Can you back anything stated with unbiased statistics ? No. So your logic is being led where you want it to be led. Thats not logic, thats bias as well, just in a different direction. Again, does the statistic of # of teen births by black women being roughly double any other group in America, or the statistic that a black child is more than twice as likely to be raised in a home without a father figure have meaning outside of the statistic itself? No, they are merely statistics.

Here are some statistics showing that a majority of people aren't logical.



And



Is exactly what they said about witches, and what they said about communists in McCarthy's time. Denying it means its true. And you speak of logic?

I don't state that racism doesn't exist anywhere ever in the USA any longer. But it is no longer a prevalent systematic part of American life, as it was just 50 years ago. Will there always be a chance of bias in any interaction between 2 individuals? Always. Whether it be clothes you are wearing, your haircut, your speech patterns, etc all humans make judgements on whether and how they wish to associate with other people. I believe that at this point (2009) all of those things are far more likely to factor in to how you treat a person you are meeting for the first time more than the color of their skin. Was it true in 1965? no.

My response about providing statistics was tongue-in-cheek and apparently that was lost on you. It was in response to your challenge to Luther and myself. The point is, you can find statistical "evidence" on any number of topics that can be swayed any way you want them to be. Meaningless. Those statistics you provided mean what, exactly? 51% of Americans? Couldn't be. I was never asked. I could answer all those questions. They are a percentage of whom? That's just a tool used by pseudo-intellectuals who think they know it all. Poli-tricks, if you will. It means nothing. Anyways, I could go on but I don't see the point. No matter what anyone says, you'll pull up bogus statistics and make weird analogies. Good night, good luck and GOD bless.
 
Where has this type of problem ever "solved itself"? In South Africa? In Israel?

The difference is that South Africa legislated apartheid. Not sure about Israel. There has been no legal segregation in the United States for the past 45 years. The legal hurdle is not there. Which brings me to the same question:

If you were dictator of the US, what specific legislation would you enact to end racism?
 
... If you were dictator of the US, what specific legislation would you enact to end racism?

I think that's what they call Project: Affirmative Action. It's not an end, just a rebalancing act that makes it worse once the backlash catches up.

I think the next plan will be called Project: Kill Whitey!, or maybe something a bit more polished and PC for the public. :p

Seriously though, you have a great point. What's done is done and it is what it is. It's really just a game people play now. People only hate other people if they're trained to from an early age (6yo and younger). Go look at little kids on a playground next time you drive by a school or daycare. They don't give a sh!t who they're playing with! Hate must be programmed into a child so that he will not depart from it in adulthood. That's what prejudice means, that's how precepts blind people later in adult life. They never get out of that racist little box or comfort zone they live in, so sadly they deceive even themselves into living their whole lives as a lie. Is that even living?

Freedom from the precepts trap requires having a sincere need to find the often ugly truth, then the balls to face it once it's been isolated, then the strength to deal with the discomfort it may cost you to change your position to get in alignment with reality. Not many people sign up for that job it seems, lol. I suppose ignorance is bliss so ignorance is clearly more desirable than reality.
 
So, you are either illiterate or a troll. Either way this is my last response to a person who can't read or purposefully doesn't read.

"To be insulted by you is to be garlanded with lilies"
--Aristophanes



He was. And they were bad cops. And there are a lot more bad cops out there. And a lot of them give whites just as much **** as blacks. I've been pulled over plenty of times for no good reason, not issued a ticket, and apparently just so some blue boy on a power trip could harrass me. And I'm whiter than sticky rice.

Poor guy:( relevance?






Incorrect. It's not always racial.

No one said it was.


However that doesn't stop many people from assuming a racial component to every incident where a black is the victim.

Who,specifically,does that?





Check the stats. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And please, show me where a white officer just pulls over a black guy and shoots him without some serious **** going down first, like a high speed chase.

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And were you to sort through the blacks in elected office you'll likely find just as many with extremist pasts.

Wild speculation,any specific examples?



What you are doing is taking anyone who questions the PC party line position on the scope, extent, and relevance of racism to modern society as a denier of all racism.

No I'm not,now who has a reading comprehension problem?






Be that as it may, your refusal to be able to see any nuance on this issue is proof that you're either a troll or a certified brainwashed PC product of the modern education system, which incidentally offers 'courses' on how evil white males are and how blacks use their hair styles as a form of rebellion.

Again,you skipped the majority of my posts if this is the best you can come up with as a "conclusion".


And, in light of the current economic crisis, I'm so happy we have so many graduates these days with such useful degrees in subjects such as Chicano Studies, Afro American Psychology, Post Modern Minority Literature, etc., etc., etc. Makes me feel real secure about this country's future.

Look at this,can you understand why he wrote this and used the specific terminology that he chose?

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Last few points and then I'm done:

Sometimes an argument gets made with such regularity that no matter how silly, it nonetheless requires an answer. Indeed the more often it gets made, the more often it calls for rebuttal, since its repetition indicates someone just is not getting it. Such is the case with the oft-repeated claim, Dr.D is hinting at it,for example, that affirmative action stigmatizes blacks and other persons of color who benefit from its presumed generosity.

As such, they note--and owing to their deep concern for the psychological well-being of their dark-skinned brothers and sisters--the elimination of such programs would be in the best interest of those persons they were meant to help.

By casting their opposition to affirmative action in such seemingly altruistic terms, critics seek to avoid the impression that they are motivated by racial resentment at the opening up of opportunities to long-marginalized groups. See, they seem to be saying, we don't mind black folks. Heck we love black folks, and just want what's best for them. And what's best for them, presumably, is no more 'upreferential treatment' in college admissions, jobs, or contracting.

Putting aside the simple reality that all of this so-called preferential treatment has hardly put a dent in the edifice of white domination--white men still get 93% of all government contract dollars, hold over 90% of top jobs and 85% of tenured professorships--the notion that affirmative action stigmatizes beneficiaries and therefore should be scrapped for the sake of black and brown mental health is disingenuous and even racist on several levels.

First, since affirmative action has opened up opportunities that would otherwise have remained off-limits to people of color--and few deny this, despite data which indicates that white men are still large and in charge--such arguments seem to imply that people of color would have been better off not to have gotten the jobs, college slots or contracts they received.

We are asked to believe that they would have been better off with, say, one percent, instead of three percent of federal contract dollars; or perhaps half-a-percent, instead of four percent of tenured faculty positions.

In other words, we are to believe that less opportunity to demonstrate their abilities would have been better for black and brown self-esteem, while more opportunity thanks to affirmative action was harmful. That few people of color would trade the added opportunities they have received for the sake of their self-image attests to how utterly asinine such an argument really is.

Secondly, this feigned white concern--occasionally echoed by black conservatives--seems especially hypocritical when one considers that the same folks making this argument said nothing when The Bell Curve was published and greeted merrily by the conservative right.

After all, here was a book that said blacks were genetically less intelligent than whites, predisposed to crime, out-of-wedlock childbirth, and all forms of social pathology. If the right believes that affirmative action creates self-doubt, or implies that people of color are less capable and need special help to succeed, then how much more harmful must a book like The Bell Curve be, which doesn't imply that such persons are less capable but rather screams it quite openly?

Yet, not only did many not condemn this volume upon its publication (and no prominent conservative said a critical word, while several like William Bennett praised it openly), but indeed white consumers made it a best-seller within weeks and its primary author, Charles Murray, became a media star. Such is white concern for black people's self-esteem.


Thirdly, the fact that black people overwhelmingly support affirmative action leaves proponents of the stigma argument with only one of two possible beliefs from which to choose: either that blacks are too stupid to intuit their own interests and too dim-witted to see how badly they are being damaged by affirmative action, or alternately that blacks are so gullible (and thus also stupid) as to be deceived into supporting affirmative action by scheming civil rights activists.

Either way, this argument requires a belief in the ignorance of black people, and their utter inability to think rationally. Such a position is of course flatly racist not to mention utterly vapid.


Additionally, whatever stigma could theoretically attach to benefiting from affirmative action surely dissipates once one has to prove themselves on the job or in school.

Indeed, persons of color know well that they will likely have to work twice as hard to get half as far or be considered half as good as whites; and they have known that since long before affirmative action came around. But at least with affirmative action they get the chance to work twice as hard and demonstrate their capabilities.

And, apparently, once given that chance, persons of color rise to the occasion.

A comprehensive analysis of over 200 studies on the work performance of affirmative action beneficiaries, published a few years ago in the Journal of Economic Literature, found that said beneficiaries performed just as well and often better than their white male counterparts.

So much for stigma.

If these workers were given to doubting their own abilities due to having received a bump from affirmative action, surely this self-doubt would have translated to weakened job performance. Furthermore, to the extent such beneficiaries perform equal to or better than white men on the job, any lingering biases on the part of whites, such as beliefs that blacks are less capable and qualified, can hardly be blamed on affirmative action, but are rather the fault of white ignorance and racism itself.

And finally, one has to wonder why no similar concern arises over white self-esteem? After all, the history of white America has been a history of affirmative action; one in which we received non-stop preferential treatment and continue to do so. Yet do those who shed crocodile tears over the stigmatizing effects of affirmative action for people of color likewise argue that whites who benefit from preferences, or have done so in the past, have been stigmatized?

Is George W. Bush stigmatized because his daddy got him into Yale? Are the white baby-boomers who are currently inheriting nearly $10 trillion of property and wealth from their parents--wealth that was accumulated under conditions of formal apartheid with its attendant preference for whites--stigmatized by receipt of said wealth? If so, when are they going to relinquish the wealth in the name of their mental health, and if not, why not, if 'upreference'u is inherently stigmatizing? Will these conservatives now seek to raise the inheritance tax, perhaps to 100 percent, so as to save trust fund kids years of expensive therapy for their damaged self-esteems?

Bottom line: if black and brown folks are being stigmatized by affirmative action, whites must be the most self-hating bunch around. Years of racial privilege must surely have brought us to the point of near paralysis, such that it quite literally boggles the mind to contemplate how we manage to persist in our daily routines at all.

Given the unfair preference for those who appear to be white, and the stigma that must therefore assault every Biff, Skyler or Chloe, forced to wonder if they got their jobs due to their lily-white names, perhaps the critics of racial preferences should start a campaign for whites to change our names to Tamika, Shamika, Andre and Tyrone, just to even things out a bit and avoid the damage that would otherwise come from an unfair head start.
 
Compelling writing style, lutherblsstt! :thumbsup:

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The police officer stated that he thought he drew his taser, and drawing the pistol was a mistake.

And as far as I'm concerned this officer is a moron and a putz for shooting this guy. But there's no evidence it was racially motivated, nor is the presentation of one scumbag an answer to my request for stats on the subject. So Bionic = Failed. If I looked I could likely find an officer of any race shooting a white guy, or any other race, in similarly unjustified circumstances. Doesn't mean it's racial, doesn't mean it's systemic and out of control in law enforcement.

Bionic said:
That's a great point. If you look for racism, you WILL find it because it exists everywhere. If you don't look at the world "through racism-colored glasses" all you see are random acts that are "unfortunate" or "tragic."

No, because I have no trouble seeing racist acts when they do occur. This just isn't it. It's a putxz making a putz move while under pressure. Just because the guy who got the **** end of the stick is black and the putz is white doesn't make it racially motivated. If he had been screaming, "Get them niggers under control now, boys..." during the round up you might have a point. He wasn't.

You can deny its existence til the cows come home but that belies the point that not only does it exist but it always has and always will. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it's a mother****ing duck.

Yup. And this isn't a duck. Your problem seems to be any bird you see is a duck as far ar you're concerned. Neither Easy nor anyone else is denying the existence of ducks or racism, so that is not a relevant argument to address.

If you were dictator of the US, what specific legislation would you enact to end racism?

That's always the question, isn't it? People screaming at the top of their lungs, "Look! Look! I see injustice!" To which the obvious question is, "Okay, assuming you're right, what do you propose we do about it?" That's where most people come up short.

lutherblsstt said:
blah blah blah blah

Nice try, troll. You need to do better than that to get more out of people with brains. You failed to address the default issue. You failed to provide stats showing white cops routinely blow away blacks at a high or differring rate than any other racial mix. All you do is mix rhetoric about "white folks" denying racism exists when no one here has done so with incidental reporting of individual acts, not trends or research. The 'research' you have quoted isn't available on line it seems so there's no way to verify any of it or whether you are even correctly stating the conclusions of such studies.

Thirdly, the fact that black people overwhelmingly support affirmative action leaves proponents of the stigma argument with only one of two possible beliefs from which to choose: either that blacks are too stupid to intuit their own interests and too dim-witted to see how badly they are being damaged by affirmative action, or alternately that blacks are so gullible (and thus also stupid) as to be deceived into supporting affirmative action by scheming civil rights activists.

Your analysis leaves out a third, less controversial, more likely option: blacks, like everyone else on the planet, find disutility in labor and so when offered a free lunch, don't turn it down. It is the exclusion of such options that shows your view of this issue is narrow, artificially truncated to be so, and as such lacking in anything truly worthwhile.
 
More like a laughable writing style, with his own projections of racism bubbling through.
After all, here was a book that said blacks were genetically less intelligent than whites, predisposed to crime, out-of-wedlock childbirth, and all forms of social pathology. If the right believes that affirmative action creates self-doubt, or implies that people of color are less capable and need special help to succeed, then how much more harmful must a book like The Bell Curve be, which doesn't imply that such persons are less capable but rather screams it quite openly?

Its funny to let your own racism color what others say isnt it? The authors said nothing of the sort.

What the authors actually said was that intelligence is a better predictor of factors such as income, job performance, unwed pregnancy and crime than socio-economic status or education level. They mentioned that different races did have different average intelligence scoring, but directly said "It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences." and "The debate about whether and how much genes and environment have to do with ethnic differences remains unresolved."

So again, you put words in the mouths of the authors so that it would reflect in such as way as to justify your own racism.

you said

Dr.D is hinting at it,for example, that affirmative action stigmatizes blacks and other persons of color who benefit from its presumed generosity.

re Dr.D's
I think that's what they call Project: Affirmative Action. It's not an end, just a rebalancing act that makes it worse once the backlash catches up.

Again, your thinking is colored by your racism against whites. I'm rather sure that what Dr.D meant (as it is something that is potentially an issue) is that if blacks end up re-balanced to make up x% of managers, and x% of whatever other groupings are felt they aren't at a normal statistical level of only by ignoring standardized test scores and other normal critieria, what happens to the black population once they no longer get 100 free SAT points? What happens to police department hiring when they go back to hiring based on the exams taken and not "the next 15 people I hire have to be either black hispanic or female"? In one way or another, affirmative action has to have an end as it has a goal. So what happens when the goal is met and suddenly standards for blacks are suddenly raised? Will it be cries of new racism?

That is the backlash he (and I) am concerned about, as we aren't racists, and don't believe that the color of your skin defines your capabilities or destiny. The way you are raised and the way you choose to live your life does.


And just to throw out my own thoughts here, I put out the teen birth and fatherless home statistics a few times because I think they are more relevant to how a child's life ends up than his/her skin color. The teen birth with no involved father is a vicious circle - daughters born to this have no strong male figure in their lives, and an immature mother, so they relish the attention from men and in their teens are more likely to be sexually active to keep the men paying attention to them. And sons born to this have no strong male figures in their lives, so they never learn how to be a decent father, or how to treat women, never learn the value and enjoyment of loving your own children, which makes them that much more likely to repeat the process. I don't believe that the high teen rate or high father abandonment rates are because they are black, I think its because for so long they've had such a high rate that it just continues and repeats itself over and over. Its something we need to break for everyone regardless of skin color.
 
That's always the question, isn't it? People screaming at the top of their lungs, "Look! Look! I see injustice!" To which the obvious question is, "Okay, assuming you're right, what do you propose we do about it?" That's where most people come up short.



What to do in regards to affirmative action?

Affirmative action requirements have become paper tigers in a sense over the past fifteen years or so; first, because of the Reagan-era assaults, and now because the agencies charged with overseeing civil rights compliance have too few resources to make the laws meaningful.

The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP), for example, conducted a review in 1994-1995 which concluded that about 75% of the businesses they investigated were in "substantial violation"—not only of affirmative action mandates, but of the basic premises of the Civil Rights Act of 1964!

The real kicker, though, is that the OFCCP only has enough money to conduct about 4000 reviews a year, meaning that they can check up on each workplace under their jurisdiction about once ever 38 years. In addition, only a handful of companies have ever been banned from receiving government contracts for failure to comply with the laws. Until we get serious and treat discrimination like the crime it is, affirmative action will remain somewhat hollow.


There are other things we can do to improve, or supplement, affirmative action.

For example, the 1991 Civil Rights Act, says that job qualification requirements—like a standardized test score or educational degree—which disproportionately exclude people of color, are only legitimate if they are absolute business necessities: in other words, having a certain score or credential has to be necessary to performing the job in question, or else the requirement is not allowed.

This was originally asserted by the Supreme Court in 1971, but had been weakened in 1989 so that all companies had to do was show a "reasonable" relationship between qualification requirements and ability to perform the job. To the extent the Congress took us back to a more stringent standard, fine.

But what about "qualification requirements" for admission to selective colleges and universities? Why shouldn't such institutions also have the burden of showing that things like the SAT bear a substantial relationship to one's ability to succeed in college?

Of course, the evidence is that these tests are bullshit: the SAT, for example has a .32 correlation with freshman grades, meaning that only about 10% of the difference between two students can be traced to their differences on the SAT.

Similar evidence exists for graduate level tests. So, to the extent that people of color generally do worse on the tests—thanks to having attended resource-poor schools, or having been tracked into classes that don't prepare you for these exams—and are therefore underrepresented in many colleges, we should apply the same standard that we apply for employment.

Developing alternative admission criteria that wasn't so tilted in favor of those with greater resources would greatly improve affirmative action's effectiveness, and also help thousands of low-and-moderate income whites who, because of inadequate resources, also bomb these tests. For those wanting more information on a number of similar ideas, I would strongly recommend the article by Lani Guinier and Susan Sturm in the July, 1996 California Law Review found here: Invalid Link Removed.




Nice try, troll. You need to do better than that to get more out of people with brains. You failed to address the default issue. You failed to provide stats showing white cops routinely blow away blacks at a high or differring rate than any other racial mix.

If you are dead set on believing what you wrote there is absolutely no way I am going to convince you otherwise,especially via a forum.

If you are genuinely interested there is plenty of information about police racism, misconduct and brutality, both in historical and contemporary terms, available from any number of sources.

Among them, see Kristian Williams, Our Enemies in Blue. Soft Skull Press, 2004; and online at the Stolen Lives Project: Invalid Link Removed




All you do is mix rhetoric about "white folks" denying racism exists when no one here has done so with incidental reporting of individual acts, not trends or research. The 'research' you have quoted isn't available on line it seems so there's no way to verify any of it or whether you are even correctly stating the conclusions of such studies.

Check the numerous links I have posted,also,if you are so interested in the studies that are not online go to the library!



Your analysis leaves out a third, less controversial, more likely option:

More likely because CDB from the AM forum says so.

blacks, like everyone else on the planet, find disutility in labor and so when offered a free lunch, don't turn it down. It is the exclusion of such options that shows your view of this issue is narrow, artificially truncated to be so, and as such lacking in anything truly worthwhile.

It is not my job to include every option in the universe. It could also be the case that blacks love ideas that start with a and so automatically took to affirmative action.I include options that copious amounts of research and years of experience bear out, not baseless speculation.
 
More like a laughable writing style, with his own projections of racism bubbling through.....

You may disagree with the content of what he writes, but that does not take anything away from his style. As it turns out, I like his writing style. You may not. That is fine.
 
One comment on the video shooting and the existence or otherwise of a racist undertone. In all humility, I doubt that any of us here, or anywhere else, has the audacity to categorically state that there was no evidence the shooting was motivated by racial bias. The only individual that can convincingly make such an assertion, assuming he tells the truth, is the shooter himself. For anyone else to insist the tragedy was void of any racial influence, he also has to convincingly demonstrate that the shooter, under similar circumstances, would also react in the same manner, even if the corresponding victim were of a different skin colour. As it turns out, this can only remain in the realm of a thought experiment. Consequently, we may never know the shooter's driving motivation with complete certainty.
 
And please, show me where a white officer just pulls over a black guy and shoots him without some serious **** going down first, like a high speed chase.

What's funny is that he asked for a specific type of example, I provided it and then he condemned it, out of pocket. Ah well, at this point, I'll just sit back, read and laugh quietly to myself.
 
One comment on the video shooting and the existence or otherwise of a racist undertone. In all humility, I doubt that any of us here, or anywhere else, has the audacity to categorically state that there was any evidence the shooting was motivated by racial bias. The only individual that can convincingly make such an assertion, assuming he tells the truth, is the shooter himself. For anyone else to insist the tragedy had any racial influence, he also has to convincingly demonstrate that the shooter, under similar circumstances, would not react in the same manner, even if the corresponding victim were of a different skin colour. As it turns out, this can only remain in the realm of a thought experiment. Consequently, we may never know the shooter's driving motivation with complete certainty

its all point of view....
 
Chris Martenson PhD wrote a very good piece relating to the financial crisis that helps put the awareness level of the various posters in this discussion in perspective:

It is a very loose adaptation of the Kubler-Ross "Five Stages of Grief" framework.

"Often a broad new awareness results in a series of emotional responses that mimic the grief associated with loss. I have termed these the Six Stages of Awareness.

Each of us here is somewhere along this progression. Most of us will inevitably pass through all six stages, each at a different speed, not always in order, and some will skip a few stages.

While we read each others' comments at this site (and elsewhere), my hope is that we can find acceptance and understanding of the fact that each person is at a slightly different stage of acceptance and awareness.

Today is about examining some data in a whole new way. I am going to provide you with a new framework for viewing this data, a scaffolding on which to drape this data, that is probably built a little differently than the one you already have. The information is absolutely vital and critical to your future, but it will be worthless if we examine it in the same way that it has been presented to us by what I’ll term ‘our popular culture.’

So your first opportunity today will be the opportunity to change your thinking.

I must warn you; this will not be easy for some of you. I know this from experience. You may well find yourself progressing through something akin to the five stages of grief throughout the day, and throughout the next few months. Awareness can be troubling enough to mirror the process of grief, and knowing this can be an important means of grounding oneself.

STAGE 1: You might begin with a series of statements to yourself such as “No way can this be true. There must be alternative explanations. This simply can’t be; I would have heard about it.” To help speed you through this stage of denial, I offer you full access to all the source data so that you can check it for yourself. Further, I only draw upon sources that most reasonable people would consider to be highly credible. If you can view all of the data that I will present and find some alternative set of explanations as to why/how all of these things will not matter, I need you to share this with me. Pronto.

STAGE 2: Next, you might find yourself full of anger, saying to yourself (and possibly your loved ones and anybody else that will listen), “Goddammit! Those bastards at the Fed, in the government, in media have been hiding things from me, lying, and serving their own interests at my expense. How dare they!!!” While anger is a perfectly normal and even healthy stage to pass though, it is also counterproductive, in the sense that anger often serves to inhibit action…and as you’ll see later, we don’t really have a lot of time to spend in the non-solution stage. So for everybody’s sake need you to move through this phase as rapidly as possible. This is also why you will not find me assigning blame and pointing fingers. Blame leads to anger and often a sense of victimization – both of which serve to inhibit taking action. Further, the blame game only serves to polarize people into opposing teams - and we’re all on the same team.

STAGE 3: The next stage is bargaining, and you might find yourself thinking such thoughts as “If I simply change a few things in my life, perhaps that will be sufficient and I won’t have to really change. I’ll use efficient light bulbs, buy a Prius, and save more each year.” You will find yourself bargaining with the data for more time, a different outcome, perhaps for a miracle to emerge. Perhaps some new technology will arise that will give us abundant and limitless energy, or we'll elect a new president capable of speaking the truth and marshaling the considerable talents and energy of this country. This too is a stage, and I’ve assembled a framework for understanding in such a way as to help you understand the critical difference between wishful thinking and realistic solutions. Please understand that I am not going to purposely step on your hopes – I am as hopeful as anybody you will ever meet – it’s just that I want our collective hopes to be placed in the right spots where they will do us some good. My hopes center on the tremendous reservoirs of talent, energy, and problem solving that reside in this country, this community, and this room. I am confident that we will pull through all of these problems that we are about to discuss and that we can do it with joy, verve, and excitement. Misplaced hopes and defective strategies, on the other hand, will only let us down in the future, as they fail to deliver.

STAGE 4: The next stage is fear, and it can take many shapes. “I’m going to die broke. People will come out of the cities and eat all my food and harm my family. The future is going to be unbearably bleak. I might die. I might starve. I’m not built for a world that mirrors the dystopian nightmare of Mad Max.” It is important to name these fears and confront them directly. Trying to ignore or stuff them away is simply a recipe to assure that they linger deep down infecting your dreams and fostering paralysis. Fears are debilitating. They will prevent you from acting and they will ultimately erode your physical well-being. Most of these fears are grounded in the knowledge that our social, energy, and food networks are, for the most part, unnecessarily complicated and often wafer-thin. How will they operate in a more challenging environment? We don’t really know, and it’s that uncertainty which creates a deep sense of unease. Our food supply is both robust and fragile. If the continuous parade of trucks ever stopped rolling, for any reason, nearly all communities would find their store shelves stripped bare within 2-3 days. In fact, when we peel back the covers and examine each aspect of our various support systems, we find that they are nearly all built upon the implicit assumption that the future will be pretty much exactly like today. But what if it’s not? For myself, the only answer was to actively take steps to address each of my most basic fears. Imagine that you live in a maze made out of some flammable material and you have a fear of being caught in a fire in the maze. How could you reduce your fear? One way would be to familiarize yourself with the way out. Another might be to leave the maze and live somewhere else. Attempting to ignore the fear is not a strategy, because you would still know, on some level, that even though you are ignoring the fear, the risk remains…and so will the fear. The easiest way to reduce fear is to take concrete actions to reduce risk.

STAGE 5: The most critical stage to navigate is depression. With a realistic assessment of our predicament, it is extremely common for people to begin to harbor such thoughts as “Crap, we’re screwed. What’s the point? I am powerless to do anything about this. There’s nothing that any of us can do, anyway.” At this stage, dark fantasies of the future begin to creep into our thoughts, and fear paralyzes our ability to think, let alone act. It is my goal to help you limit this stage to the absolute shortest possible time – perhaps we can find a way to bypass it altogether.

STAGE 6: The final state is acceptance. You will know you are here when you begin to think, “However we got here is unimportant – it is what it is. Let’s figure out how to navigate the future with the tools and advantages we’ve got, not what we wish we had.” With acceptance comes peace, a sense of calm, and the ability to think clearly and take actions. However, acceptance and urgency can co-exist, and I do not mean to imply otherwise. In fact, I am going to actively try to create both here today.

Working through these stages is not a one-way trip. I cycle through stages #4 (fear) and #6 (acceptance) pretty routinely, but spend less and less time in #4 with every pass. What I hope you take away from this is that wherever you happen to be in these Six Stages of Awareness will almost certainly shift over time. If you do not like where you are, know that it is temporary. My audacious, gigantic goal is to enable you to move through each of the six stages faster and more smoothly than I did.

Lastly, please remember that everybody is somewhere along this curve, and my experience is that the people who are further along tend to catch grief from the people who are not. I ask that you be as respectful as possible of those who are in a slightly different place with all this and know that where they happen to be is right where they need to be at this moment. "

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If you use as the end result accepting that "racism is no longer the prevalent systematic persecution of any particular group of people" the stages are just as valuable. :)

This may help you a little luther

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What to do in regards to affirmative action?

Affirmative action requirements have become paper tigers in a sense over the past fifteen years or so; first, because of the Reagan-era assaults, and now because the agencies charged with overseeing civil rights compliance have too few resources to make the laws meaningful.

The Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP), for example, conducted a review in 1994-1995 which concluded that about 75% of the businesses they investigated were in "substantial violation"—not only of affirmative action mandates, but of the basic premises of the Civil Rights Act of 1964!

The real kicker, though, is that the OFCCP only has enough money to conduct about 4000 reviews a year, meaning that they can check up on each workplace under their jurisdiction about once ever 38 years. In addition, only a handful of companies have ever been banned from receiving government contracts for failure to comply with the laws. Until we get serious and treat discrimination like the crime it is, affirmative action will remain somewhat hollow.


There are other things we can do to improve, or supplement, affirmative action.

For example, the 1991 Civil Rights Act, says that job qualification requirements—like a standardized test score or educational degree—which disproportionately exclude people of color, are only legitimate if they are absolute business necessities: in other words, having a certain score or credential has to be necessary to performing the job in question, or else the requirement is not allowed.

This was originally asserted by the Supreme Court in 1971, but had been weakened in 1989 so that all companies had to do was show a "reasonable" relationship between qualification requirements and ability to perform the job. To the extent the Congress took us back to a more stringent standard, fine.

So you want to throw private businessmen in jail for not hiring who you think they should hire?
 
I personally agree with Mr. holder, we are a nation of cowards, and our record on racial issues is pathetic. However, I don't think it was the right time or place to say the things he did. As a black american race effects me on a daily basis. When my white friends tell me that it is b.s. it is very offensive, we have gottin into heated debates about it at work. Tolerence has changed, but discrimination is alive and well, it's just more subtle, and harder to prove. I feel that afirmative action is still very necessary. It's normal to my black friends. We know we aren't welcomed in certain businesses, and I frequently change the way I dress, so I won't have to deal with attitudes. I change where I drive so I won't have to deal with harassment from police. I have often been followed by police for no reason on a regular basis, I even had an officer wait for twenty minutes while I'm shopping to pull me over when I leave the parking lot. A lot of this has to do with the way black males are protrayed in the media, but most of the violence is against our own people, not whites lol. I try not to make eye contact with white women in elevators or parking garages, because they are scared of me. I have to try extra hard to overcome stereotypes when trying to obtain employment, and show that I am compitant and intellegent. It gets worse the more sucessful you get, a friend of mine is in medical school, and experiences it from her professors all the time. I'm frequently followed around in shopping malls and stores. This has just been my experience.
 
I feel a lot of white americans just want to move on, and forget about the past. I cant blame them. We have a really ugly past. I have one friend who said it's not his fault what the generation did before us. But we have to face our past before we can truely heal. I don't hate white people, my daughter is half white. It just irks me when my white friends deny that it happens, many of them feel that I have an advantage over them cause I am black. Most get defensive and talk about affirmitive action, and how blacks are embittered, and talk about experiences where they have been acussed of being racist. Get over it they say!!! Then they go on and talk about how they have black friends and they aren't racist. And they all seem to have a story about a rude black person lol. Then I tell them stories about Emmet Till lol. I do think America took a big step by evaluating a presidential canidate based on his ideas and character instead of his color. I think we are moving in the right direction. But we got a long way to go.
 
So you want to throw private businessmen in jail for not hiring who you think they should hire?

If that is your true understanding of what I wrote I will bow out here because there is nothing else I can say to someone who reads posts and seems to actually be looking for things that he can misinterpret.
 
What's funny is that he asked for a specific type of example, I provided it and then he condemned it, out of pocket. Ah well, at this point, I'll just sit back, read and laugh quietly to myself.

You didn't provide such evidence. One, I asked for an incident that was not preceeded by some violent episode or high speed chase, etc. If you would actually read about this incident rather than just watching the video you would know the police were responding to a call about a violent fight going on. Two, I also asked for evidence of any trend of such incidents happening, as of yet neither your nor Lutherwhathisname have provided jack ****. At most all that's been provided is statistics that show different outcomes for people of different races. It's just as wrong to presume racism is the cause of such differences as it is to assume a genetic predisposition to lower intelligence is the cause of standardized testing disparities found between the races.

So while you might want to have your cake and eat it too, you can't fault people like Murray for, according to Luther, using a fallacious argument to draw unsupported conclusions, but then use the same fallacious argument to 'support' your point of view. Statistically if you separate the population by sex and age you will find young males of all races are far more likely to commit violent crimes and end up in jail for longer stretches than any other segment of the population. By your logic that means there is a powerful bias in the police and judicial system against young males. And, if you would like to pick any particular race as the reference point and make the argument that statistically poorer treatment means bias against, statistically better treatment must mean bias in favor. So why does the judicial system show an anti black/pro asian and jew bias when compared to caucasians?

Come on now, the same stats and reasoning you simpletons use to 'prove' racial bias against blacks supports these very same conclusions. So explain them.
 
Chris Martenson PhD wrote a very good piece relating to the financial crisis that helps put the awareness level of the various posters in this discussion in perspective:

It is a very loose adaptation of the Kubler-Ross "Five Stages of Grief" framework.

"Often a broad new awareness results in a series of emotional responses that mimic the grief associated with loss. I have termed these the Six Stages of Awareness.

Each of us here is somewhere along this progression. Most of us will inevitably pass through all six stages, each at a different speed, not always in order, and some will skip a few stages.

While we read each others' comments at this site (and elsewhere), my hope is that we can find acceptance and understanding of the fact that each person is at a slightly different stage of acceptance and awareness.

Today is about examining some data in a whole new way. I am going to provide you with a new framework for viewing this data, a scaffolding on which to drape this data, that is probably built a little differently than the one you already have. The information is absolutely vital and critical to your future, but it will be worthless if we examine it in the same way that it has been presented to us by what I’ll term ‘our popular culture.’

So your first opportunity today will be the opportunity to change your thinking.

I must warn you; this will not be easy for some of you. I know this from experience. You may well find yourself progressing through something akin to the five stages of grief throughout the day, and throughout the next few months. Awareness can be troubling enough to mirror the process of grief, and knowing this can be an important means of grounding oneself.

STAGE 1: You might begin with a series of statements to yourself such as “No way can this be true. There must be alternative explanations. This simply can’t be; I would have heard about it.” To help speed you through this stage of denial, I offer you full access to all the source data so that you can check it for yourself. Further, I only draw upon sources that most reasonable people would consider to be highly credible. If you can view all of the data that I will present and find some alternative set of explanations as to why/how all of these things will not matter, I need you to share this with me. Pronto.

STAGE 2: Next, you might find yourself full of anger, saying to yourself (and possibly your loved ones and anybody else that will listen), “Goddammit! Those bastards at the Fed, in the government, in media have been hiding things from me, lying, and serving their own interests at my expense. How dare they!!!” While anger is a perfectly normal and even healthy stage to pass though, it is also counterproductive, in the sense that anger often serves to inhibit action…and as you’ll see later, we don’t really have a lot of time to spend in the non-solution stage. So for everybody’s sake need you to move through this phase as rapidly as possible. This is also why you will not find me assigning blame and pointing fingers. Blame leads to anger and often a sense of victimization – both of which serve to inhibit taking action. Further, the blame game only serves to polarize people into opposing teams - and we’re all on the same team.

STAGE 3: The next stage is bargaining, and you might find yourself thinking such thoughts as “If I simply change a few things in my life, perhaps that will be sufficient and I won’t have to really change. I’ll use efficient light bulbs, buy a Prius, and save more each year.” You will find yourself bargaining with the data for more time, a different outcome, perhaps for a miracle to emerge. Perhaps some new technology will arise that will give us abundant and limitless energy, or we'll elect a new president capable of speaking the truth and marshaling the considerable talents and energy of this country. This too is a stage, and I’ve assembled a framework for understanding in such a way as to help you understand the critical difference between wishful thinking and realistic solutions. Please understand that I am not going to purposely step on your hopes – I am as hopeful as anybody you will ever meet – it’s just that I want our collective hopes to be placed in the right spots where they will do us some good. My hopes center on the tremendous reservoirs of talent, energy, and problem solving that reside in this country, this community, and this room. I am confident that we will pull through all of these problems that we are about to discuss and that we can do it with joy, verve, and excitement. Misplaced hopes and defective strategies, on the other hand, will only let us down in the future, as they fail to deliver.

STAGE 4: The next stage is fear, and it can take many shapes. “I’m going to die broke. People will come out of the cities and eat all my food and harm my family. The future is going to be unbearably bleak. I might die. I might starve. I’m not built for a world that mirrors the dystopian nightmare of Mad Max.” It is important to name these fears and confront them directly. Trying to ignore or stuff them away is simply a recipe to assure that they linger deep down infecting your dreams and fostering paralysis. Fears are debilitating. They will prevent you from acting and they will ultimately erode your physical well-being. Most of these fears are grounded in the knowledge that our social, energy, and food networks are, for the most part, unnecessarily complicated and often wafer-thin. How will they operate in a more challenging environment? We don’t really know, and it’s that uncertainty which creates a deep sense of unease. Our food supply is both robust and fragile. If the continuous parade of trucks ever stopped rolling, for any reason, nearly all communities would find their store shelves stripped bare within 2-3 days. In fact, when we peel back the covers and examine each aspect of our various support systems, we find that they are nearly all built upon the implicit assumption that the future will be pretty much exactly like today. But what if it’s not? For myself, the only answer was to actively take steps to address each of my most basic fears. Imagine that you live in a maze made out of some flammable material and you have a fear of being caught in a fire in the maze. How could you reduce your fear? One way would be to familiarize yourself with the way out. Another might be to leave the maze and live somewhere else. Attempting to ignore the fear is not a strategy, because you would still know, on some level, that even though you are ignoring the fear, the risk remains…and so will the fear. The easiest way to reduce fear is to take concrete actions to reduce risk.

STAGE 5: The most critical stage to navigate is depression. With a realistic assessment of our predicament, it is extremely common for people to begin to harbor such thoughts as “Crap, we’re screwed. What’s the point? I am powerless to do anything about this. There’s nothing that any of us can do, anyway.” At this stage, dark fantasies of the future begin to creep into our thoughts, and fear paralyzes our ability to think, let alone act. It is my goal to help you limit this stage to the absolute shortest possible time – perhaps we can find a way to bypass it altogether.

STAGE 6: The final state is acceptance. You will know you are here when you begin to think, “However we got here is unimportant – it is what it is. Let’s figure out how to navigate the future with the tools and advantages we’ve got, not what we wish we had.” With acceptance comes peace, a sense of calm, and the ability to think clearly and take actions. However, acceptance and urgency can co-exist, and I do not mean to imply otherwise. In fact, I am going to actively try to create both here today.

Working through these stages is not a one-way trip. I cycle through stages #4 (fear) and #6 (acceptance) pretty routinely, but spend less and less time in #4 with every pass. What I hope you take away from this is that wherever you happen to be in these Six Stages of Awareness will almost certainly shift over time. If you do not like where you are, know that it is temporary. My audacious, gigantic goal is to enable you to move through each of the six stages faster and more smoothly than I did.

Lastly, please remember that everybody is somewhere along this curve, and my experience is that the people who are further along tend to catch grief from the people who are not. I ask that you be as respectful as possible of those who are in a slightly different place with all this and know that where they happen to be is right where they need to be at this moment. "

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What the **** is the point of this post?
 
And of course there is nothing racist about this illustration,just all in good fun right?

In the context of the point that those who look for racism can find it anywhere, it is not.

This picture was a serendipitous find. I was browsing a site "www.theinternetisterrible.com" and it was one of his entries and I thought it was rather apropos. The internet is terrible :)
 
If that is your true understanding of what I wrote I will bow out here because there is nothing else I can say to someone who reads posts and seems to actually be looking for things that he can misinterpret.

This is what you wrote:

Until we get serious and treat discrimination like the crime it is, affirmative action will remain somewhat hollow.

To paraphrase you're saying get tough on the "crime" of affirmative action. Typically when someone says get tough on crime they mean jail time. What do you want done....fines?

You keep bobbing and weaving the question I've asked like 3 times. Just succinctly say what SPECIFICALLY needs to be done by the government to stop racism.

Does a new law need to be created?

Do we need to throw people in jail to enforce affirmative action?

Do we need to fine people to enforce affirmative action?

Do we need to forcibly relocate people to encourage integration?

What in your view needs to be done by government?
 
I personally agree with Mr. holder, we are a nation of cowards, and our record on racial issues is pathetic. However, I don't think it was the right time or place to say the things he did. As a black american race effects me on a daily basis.

Could you provide some examples from say, yesterday or today?

When my white friends tell me that it is b.s. it is very offensive, we have gottin into heated debates about it at work. Tolerence has changed, but discrimination is alive and well, it's just more subtle, and harder to prove. I feel that afirmative action is still very necessary. It's normal to my black friends. We know we aren't welcomed in certain businesses

How do you 'know' you aren't welcome?

and I frequently change the way I dress, so I won't have to deal with attitudes.

So do I. I prefer wearing jeans or shorts and a t shirt. I have to wear a shirt, tie, and slacks at work. Exactly what the hell is racist about that? Nothing. So assuming a similar standard applied to you, why is it all of a sudden racist?

You know discrimination is not a negative word. A discriminating person dresses well, shows some class in how they act toward others, and keeps good company. I can't comment on your experience because I'm not a black guy in America today. I can comment on my experience though and it seems any time any standard of any kind is enforced on blacks there are always some who say it's racist, even if that same standard is applied equally across the board to all people. If you think people should be held to the same standards I agree. But all to often what I hear sounds like an argument for no standards.

I change where I drive so I won't have to deal with harassment from police. I have often been followed by police for no reason on a regular basis, I even had an officer wait for twenty minutes while I'm shopping to pull me over when I leave the parking lot.

So have I. And there's a bookstore I can't go into around here because loss prevention is up my ass the second I walk in the door for some reason even though I've never stolen anything since I was 17 years old. I have cops on my ass tailgating me on a regular basis, I've stopped and harassed before, my trunk emptied, no tickets issued. You think the police going off on a power trip on you makes you special? Welcome to the club.

A lot of this has to do with the way black males are protrayed in the media,

What media? The only media I know of goes out of its way to portray black males as harmless and the same as all other guys. That same media often does not report and actiely hides the race of assailants in black on white crimes to avoid 'racially charged' situatioms. That is except for the media of hip hop and rap, which blacks seem to control and which portrays young black men as thugs and lunatics. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

but most of the violence is against our own people, not whites lol.

Raw numbers, yes. Per capita black on white crime rates for all types of crimes including hate motivated attacks are all higher than white on black equivalents. See the FBI uniform crime report, The Color of Crime, etc. If the rates stayed the same and the population proportions were reversed there would be truckloads of black yahoos chaining white guys to their pick-ups and dragging them to their deaths on a weekly basis.

I try not to make eye contact with white women in elevators or parking garages, because they are scared of me.

So do I, because I'm 6'4" sans boots and people seem to think I scowl.

I have to try extra hard to overcome stereotypes when trying to obtain employment, and show that I am compitant and intellegent. It gets worse the more sucessful you get, a friend of mine is in medical school, and experiences it from her professors all the time. I'm frequently followed around in shopping malls and stores. This has just been my experience.

What I, and you might want to consider other whites as well are thinking, is that you are seeing racism where normal human experience exists. Everyone gets followed by loos prevention. Like I said above there's one store I go into where they're on my ass no matter how many times I come in and buy **** and leave without stealing. Something about me sets them off. Who knows what. As for employment, how do you know prejudice and bias are what you're dealing with, or are you just presuming?

Since I hire people for a living, let me tell you want I can't say or do. I get a paradeof human vegetables every day, all day, to deal with. All races, all religions, all ages, etc. Conversing with most of them is like trying to explain high energy physics to an artichoke. The exceptions, we hire, or try to. So one day this young guy comes in. Black as night, wearing a great suit, looking good, well put together, smiling and, and here's the kicker, unbelievably well spoken. You tend to notice things like that when the majority of the people you deal with all day can barely speak. This kid was intelligent, thought before he spoke, and you could see he was actually choosing words based on their nuances. Unfortunately he was an auditor with no control experience and I needed a controller. Neither me nor my CFO could compliment this kid or recommend him. If either of us had dared say anything along the lines of a compliment to his dress, comportment, articulateness, we run the risk of being called racists. Why? Because he's black, and the implication might be taken by some that we're saying, "Gee, we got us here a negra that can spek! Let's put him in a side show..."

Maybe a reasonable presumption according to some people. However the majority of people I see in a day are white and barely able to go beyond monosyllables. And when a white guy with a great presentation comes in who is impressive as a candidate but off target for what we need, I can at least say, "It was a pleasure to meet you, you're well presented and I think you're going places, I'm just sorry it wasn't a match with us." I can recommend him to an outside recruiter and give them an honest run down of what I thought. With a black guy I can't, because I have to walk on egg shells worrying about how what I say might be taken.

So let me ask you, is it 'right' or 'fair' for me to have to put my job at risk to compliment someone? How about risking a lawsuit for both me and my company? Also, am I not supposed to deal with reality? Like I wrote earlier I have good and bad workers here from all races, but the blunt truth is the majority of bad workers, and by bad I mean people who mouth off to their bosses, consistently show up late, finish work late if at all, etc., are blacks. I didn't make them behave that way. And they are given every opportunity to improve and usually don't. And as an adjunct to that, if a white guy is a problem employee he's out on his ass faster than **** through a goose. If we're having a problem with a black employee or a woman or a latino or any other 'protected' minority it takes months of documentation and paperwork showing incompetence, and losses to the business, before we can make a move and fire the person, just to cover our asses on any potential lawsuits.

I don't doubt the existence of racism, it's a corralary to general stupidity. But I think it's necessary for all people to look at not just their subjective exeriences but put them in the context of the whole of reality. In your experience you deal with racism daily. In my experience I often wish I could be as protected on the job as blacks are and get away with the **** I see them routinely getting away with. I would kill for that level of legal protection and job security. If I call my boss an ******* and moron to his face I'm on the street within minutes. A black guy who did the same is still employed here while we document his screw ups to the point where we feel safe enough to can him. Otherwise we risk firing him for a 'cultural misunderstanding' and end up paying his salary for the year anyway.
 
And of course there is nothing racist about this illustration,just all in good fun right?

So when a white person points out that a black person says something insanely stupid and sees racism where none exists, that's also racist?

Let me ask you, is there a single thing any white person could do or omit doing that isn't racist to you?
 
So do I. I prefer wearing jeans or shorts and a t shirt. I have to wear a shirt, tie, and slacks at work. Exactly what the hell is racist about that? Nothing. So assuming a similar standard applied to you, why is it all of a sudden racist?

I go out of my way to dress like a slob whenever I go to buy something expensive, just out of perversity to see how the car dealership, jewelery store, etc treats me.
 
This is what you wrote:



To paraphrase you're saying get tough on the "crime" of affirmative action.

Let me get this straight,you understood me saying "get serious and treat discrimination like the crime it is" to mean "get tough on the "crime" of affirmative action"??????????



You keep bobbing and weaving the question I've asked like 3 times. Just succinctly say what SPECIFICALLY needs to be done by the government to stop racism.

Specifically see post #211
 
You know discrimination is not a negative word. A discriminating person dresses well, shows some class in how they act toward others, and keeps good company. I can't comment on your experience because I'm not a black guy in America today. I can comment on my experience though and it seems any time any standard of any kind is enforced on blacks there are always some who say it's racist, even if that same standard is applied equally across the board to all people. If you think people should be held to the same standards I agree. But all to often what I hear sounds like an argument for no standards.

White folks have been quick to accuse blacks bring up discrimmination (which in this context is a negative word) of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere.

The regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds.

In other words, it's not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere).

Secondly, white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn't new, and it isn't something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable.

Fact is, whites have always doubted claims of racism at the time they were being made, no matter how strong the evidence.

So, whatever "card" claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly.



What media? The only media I know of goes out of its way to portray black males as harmless and the same as all other guys.

This is a joke,right?

See: African American men as “criminal and dangerous”: Implications of media portrayals of crime on the “criminalization” of African American men found here:

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Also see: Effects of stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans on person perception. Personality and Social Psychology Quarterly, 60, 266-275

An experiment was conducted to test the hypothesis that stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans increase the likelihood that whites will make negative social perception judgments of an African-American (but not a white) target person.

Forty white subjects were exposed to comedy skits featuring stereotypical or neutral portrayals of African-American characters. Subjects then read a vignette describing an incident in which a college student was allegedly assaulted by his roommate. In half of the conditions, the alleged offender was assumed to be white; in the other half he was assumed to be African-American. Subjects rated the likelihood that the alleged offender was guilty of the assault. Guilt ratings of the white target did not differ significantly between the stereotypical and the neutral comedy skit conditions. In contrast, guilt ratings of the African-American target were higher in the stereotypical comedy skit condition than in the neutral comedy skit condition.

Television portrayals of African-Americans and other minorities have been shown to influence whites’ perceptions of those groups. Greenberg (1972), for instance, found that over half of the white children sampled reported that television was a principal source for information about African-Americans. Furthermore, children who experienced a high degree of exposure to African-Americans on television were particularly likely to believe that the portrayal of African-Americans was "true to life" (p. 13). Television’s portrayal of minorities, then, can serve to create, reinforce, or change disparaging stereotypes (Dates 1980; Scherer 1971).

Not surprisingly, much research has been conducted over the years examining the ways that minorities are depicted on television (e.g., Banks 1977; Baptiste 1986; Donagher et al. 1975; Greenberg 1986; Poindexter & Stroman 1981). Little research, however, has directly investigated how television portrayals of African-Americans affect person perception—impressions of individuals. Therefore, in the present research, I address a relatively neglected question—how do stereotypical portrayals of African-Americans on television affect the way whites think about and respond to individual African-Americans?

Television Portrayals of African-Americans

African-Americans and members of other minorities appeared on prime-time television with increasing frequency throughout the 1970s and 1980s (e.g. Greenberg 1986; Seggar, Hafen, and Hannonen-Gladden 1981; Wigel, Kim, and Frost 1995). Weigel et al. (1995) performed a content analysis of prime-time television programs during the 1989 season. The found that the amount of time African-American characters appeared on the screen increased from 8.3 percent of the total human appearance time in 1978 to 17 percent in 1989.

Unfortunately, however, these advances are largely limited to appearances in situation comedies with predominantly African-American casts. Weigel et al. (1995) report, "Fully one-third of the black appearance time in the 1989 sample of prime-time programming was concentrated in six situation comedies that constituted less than 6 percent of the overall program time" (p. 230). This finding is consistent with research by Reid (1979), who examined prime-time programs during the spring of 1977 and found that "virtually all regularly appearing black characters on television were on comedy programs" (p. 466). Similarly, Baptista-Fernandez and Greenberg (1980) found that half of the black characters in a one-week sample of programs, but only one-third of the whites in that sample, appeared in comedies.

African-American characters are not only limited to roles in select comedies, but are also frequently based on disparaging stereotypes (e.g., Banks 1977; Baptiste 1986; Greenberg and Atkin 1982; Poindexter and Stroman 1981; Seggar and Wheeler 1973). Seggar and Wheeler (1973), for instance, found that African-Americans (and members of other minorities) were more likely than whites to be portrayed in menial "personal service" occupations. Similarly, Greenberg and Atkin (1982) reported that only one-third of African-Americans on television were depicted as having an identifiable job, whereas one-half of all white characters were depicted as having a job. Furthermore, African-Americans were more likely to have low socioeconomic status.

The stereotypical portrayal of African-Americans has traditionally been more pronounced in programs with predominantly African-Americans casts. Banks (1977), for instance, found that African-Americans in situation comedies with predominantly African-American casts (e.g., Good Times, That’s My Mamma, Sanford and Son) were particularly likely to be characterized by traits that are stereotypically associated with African-Americans, such as "fun-loving," "happy-go-lucky" (clownish) and "poor."

Recently, critics in the popular press have also lamented the stereotypical portrayal of African-Americans in situation comedies (e.g. Hammer 1992; O’Connor 1991). In a 1992 article for Newsweek magazine, Hammer argued that too many comical black characters (e.g. Vidal in Out All Night) are simply "one-note stereotypes" portrayed as buffoons and libidinous lechers (p. 71). Hammer also reported an interview with Bill Cosby in which Cosby accused the networks of presenting images of African-Americans that "reinforce shallow stereotypes" (p. 70).

The Effects of Stereotypical Portrayals on Person Perception

The level of activation or accessibility of a construct stored in memory determines how readily people use that construct to encode person information (e.g., Brunr 1957; Higgins, Rholes, and Jones 1977; Srull and Wyer 1979). Higgins et al. (1977), for instance, found that subjects interpreted a target person’s behavior in terms of applicable trait constructs made momentarily accessible through priming—that is, recent activation of those constructs in memory. Social judgement can also be influenced by trait constructs made chronically accessible through frequent activation over time (Higgins, Bargh, and Lombardi 1985; Higgins, King, and Mavin 1982; Srull and Wyer 1979, 1980).

Television and other media can be powerful priming agents, activating constructs that subsequently influence social judgements (e.g., Berkowitz and Rogers 1986; Hansen 1989). Relevant to the present research, stereotypical television portrayals of men and women have been found to increase the accessibility and subsequent use of sex-role stereotypes to interpret behavior. In a study by Hansen and Hansen (1988), for instance, subjects watched either sex-role-stereotypical music videos portraying women as sex objects or neutral music videos. The subjects then viewed a tape of an interaction between a man and woman who were getting to know each other. During the interaction, the man made a number of sexual advances (i.e. he touched her blouse and made subtle sexual comments). Afterward, subjects who viewed the sex-role stereotypical videos rated the woman (who reciprocated the man’s advances) as more sensitive, more sympathetic, more sexual, and less dominant than subjects who viewed the neutral videos. Similarly, Hansen and Krygowski (1994) exposed subjects to a short commercial of a male model demonstrating exercise equipment after they viewed a music video that depicted either a "sexy" or "nonsexy" male character. Subjects who watched the "sexy" video rated the model as sexier, less aggressive, and more amusing than subjects who watched the "nonsexy" video.

Priming research has consistently shown that to influence judgements, primed constructs must be applicable to the target of judgement (Higgins, et al. 1977). In regard to trait priming, applicability is considered in terms of semantic meaning. Priming a trait such as "friendly," for example would be expected to affect judgments of a target on descriptively similar dimensions (e.g., intelligence) (Erdley and D’Agostino 1998). Indeed, Devine (1989) primed subjects, to varying degrees, with negative stereotypical African-American traits (e.g., "poor," "lazy," "hostile"). Subjects were then asked to make judgments of a race-unspecified person who performed ambiguously hostile behavior. Ratings of the target person on hostility-related traits (e.g., "hostile," "unfriendly") were more negative insofar as subjects were primed with the stereotypical traits. Ratings on traits unrelated to hostility were not affected by priming.

Hansen (1995) and Hansen and Krygowski (1994), however, argue that stereotypical television portrayals of social groups do not simple activate a single trait construct in memory; rather, they activate a broader, abstract mental representation or schema of those groups. Such schematic representations are thought to consist of general knowledge and expectations that provide an organizational framework for processing social information (Fiske and Taylor 1991; Taylor and Crocker 1981).

Research by Ford, Stangor, and Dua (1994) suggests that in priming a social group or category (e.g., African-American, education major) the issue of applicability is whether or not the target person is a member of the primed category. In one study by Ford et at., for instance, subjects read a short vignette describing a young man who was either an education major or a mathematics major. To prime the young man’s social category, subjects were asked to recall and write down his major. Next, subjects read a second vignette describing either a dual major in education and mathematics or a geography major. Subjects then rated the second target person on trait dimensions associated with education majors and mathematics majors (e.g., people-oriented versus technical). They were more likely to characterize the dual major in terms of traits associated with the primed than with the nonprimed major. Priming, however, did not affect judgments of the geography major.

Although the priming procedures in the Ford et al. (1994) study did not involve stereotypical portrayals of social groups on television, one may hypothesize that in the case of priming an abstract representation of a social group in general, the target person must belong to the primed category. He or she must fit the activated stereotypical representation if priming is to influence social judgment. Accordingly, upon exposure to stereotypical television portrayals of social groups, people should be more likely to perceive individual members of those groups (but not nonmembers) through the lens of the activated stereotypical representation. Thus, in the present study, I predicted that when whites were exposed to negative stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans, they would be more likely to make negative judgments of an African-American target person. However, exposure to negative stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans was not predicted to affect their judgments of a white target person.

) of violent behavior when it was depicted in a humorous form (cartoon featuring animals acting like people) than in a nonhumorous form (realistic depictions of people). Mannell interpreted this finding as suggesting that humor activates a "playful judgmental set" in which one’s usual attitudes toward socially unacceptable actions or sentiments are temporarily suspended (p. 273). Similarly, Husband (1977) argued that humor "blunt the critical sensitivity" of the audience to events they would normally find socially unacceptable (p. 268).

In a study more relevant to social perception, Bill and Naus (19920 found that incidents of sexual discrimination were considered acceptable (i.e., not inappropriate) by male subjects insofar as they perceived the incidents as humorous. Taken together, these studies suggest that disparagement of social groups through humor (e.g., comical stereotypical portrayals of social out-groups) may indeed create a climate of tolerance of discrimination by providing cues that discrimination is not serious or is not to be examined critically.

CONCLUSION

Stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans in a humorous context increase the likelihood that whites will perceive an AA target person in a stereotypical manner. This finding is consistent with a priming hypothesis and contributes to a growing body of research investigating the influence of priming different varieties of social constructs.

The present study also raises the possibility that some yet-unexplored mechanisms inherent in humorous stereotypical portrayals contribute to devaluating social judgment. Indeed, this research suggests that the effects of humorous disparagement deserve serious examination particularly in light of the proliferation of television shows such as Comedy Central, Def Comedy Jam, Mad TV, and Saturday Night Live. These programs often derive their humor from the stereotypical portrays of social groups.




Raw numbers, yes. Per capita black on white crime rates for all types of crimes including hate motivated attacks are all higher than white on black equivalents. See the FBI uniform crime report, The Color of Crime, etc. If the rates stayed the same and the population proportions were reversed there would be truckloads of black yahoos chaining white guys to their pick-ups and dragging them to their deaths on a weekly basis.

To begin with, the white victim totals in the Justice Department's victimization data include those termed Hispanic by the Census, since nine in ten Latino/as are considered racially white by government record-keepers. Since Latinos and Latinas tend to live closer to blacks than non-Hispanic whites, this means that many "white" victims of "black crime" are Latino or Latina, and that in any given year, the majority of black crime victims would be people of color, not whites.

Even without breaking out Hispanic victims of "black crime," your position is without merit. In 2002, whites, including Latinos, were about 81.5 percent of the population .

That same year, whites (including Latinos) were 51 percent of the victims of violent crimes committed by blacks, meaning that whites were victimized by blacks less often than would have been expected by random chance, given the extent to which whites were available to be victimized .

From 1995-2000, blacks were 65 percent of racial and ethnic hate-crime victims, while whites were 21 percent of such victims . Adjusted for population, any given black person was nearly twenty times more likely to be the victim of a racially motivated hate crime than any given white. In 2001, there were approximately 4.6 times more white-on-black than black-on-white hate crimes , despite the fact that whites were between six and seven times more available in the population to become victims.

As for profiling, many seem to insist that because of higher black crime rates, it only makes good sense to focus police efforts on the black community. But this is demonstrably ludicrous. If, as the Justice Department data suggests, blacks commit somewhere between 25-30 percent of violent crime in most years (23 percent in 2002), to profile blacks for crime will result in police being wrong, between 70-75 percent of the time .

U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstracts of the United States, 2003. Table No. 14: 16.

United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2002, Statistical Tables, (U.S. Department of Justice, 2004), tables 40, 42, 46 and 48, and calculations by the author.

Robert O'Brian. "The Interracial Nature of Violent Crimes: A Reexamination." American Journal of Sociology 92(6) (1987).

United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2002, Statistical Tables, (U.S. Department of Justice, 2004), tables 40, 42, 46 and 48, and calculations by the author.

United States Department of Justice, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, "Hate Crime Statistics," (various years, 1995-2000), and calculations by the author.

United States Department of Justice, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 2002, "Hate Crime Statistics, 2001."

Peter Greenwood and Alan Abrahamse. Selective Incapacitation (Santa Monica, CA: Rand Corporation, 1982); Todd Clear, "Backfire: When Incarceration Increases Crime," Oklahoma Criminal Justice Research Center, at: Invalid Link Removed
 
I go out of my way to dress like a slob whenever I go to buy something expensive, just out of perversity to see how the car dealership, jewelery store, etc treats me.

I used to do that with the hifi snob crowd. (c:
 
White folks have been quick to accuse blacks bring up discrimmination (which in this context is a negative word) of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere.

There are no "facts" that are "as they see them". Those items are called opinions. Please refer to my earlier link.

Invalid Link Removed

and again

racism
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Again, many (i don't say all) of the claims of racism come from the viewer's expectation of racism, not from the principals of the action. They choose to believe that is the primary reason that something occurred. In and of itself it comically is more of an indictment of the viewer's own racism - that they choose to believe the other race is so flawed that they will act irrationally because of the color of someone's skin.

I can point out dozens of these from my own personal experience, as I live in a highly integrated neighborhood (whites are a small minority here) and have always ignored skin color as a part of my personal dealings/feelings.
 
White folks have been quick to accuse blacks bring up discrimmination (which in this context is a negative word) of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere.

I made no mention of any "card." You have said a whole lot of nothing here. I'm not one to criticize a poster for being verbose, but you're taking eight paragraphs to say what can be said in one. Trim it a little. In the above you have not answered a single point I brought up. I any event I'll wait for d's response.

This is a joke,right?

No, it isn't.

See: African American men as “criminal and dangerous”: Implications of media portrayals of crime on the “criminalization” of African American men found here:

Invalid Link Removed

Not accessible. The first three citations turn up diddly **** on Google. What I did find tends to suggest that implicit bias suggests people will be more likely to judge a black criminal and cops more likely to shoot a black than a white. You could tie this to media portrayals I guess. You could also tie it to the documentated fact that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than other races and are thus more likely to be in a situation with law enforcement, and are this correctly judged more dangerous by others.

Also see: Effects of stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans on person perception. Personality and Social Psychology Quarterly, 60, 266-275

An experiment was conducted to test the hypothesis that stereotypical television portrayals of African-Americans increase the likelihood that whites will make negative social perception judgments of an African-American (but not a white) target person.

Forty white subjects were exposed to comedy skits featuring stereotypical or neutral portrayals of African-American characters. Subjects then read a vignette describing an incident in which a college student was allegedly assaulted by his roommate. In half of the conditions, the alleged offender was assumed to be white; in the other half he was assumed to be African-American. Subjects rated the likelihood that the alleged offender was guilty of the assault. Guilt ratings of the white target did not differ significantly between the stereotypical and the neutral comedy skit conditions. In contrast, guilt ratings of the African-American target were higher in the stereotypical comedy skit condition than in the neutral comedy skit condition.

Question: where is the control group? You see, when a dishonest moron designs a study to get the conclusion he wants, he picks the above model. If he wants to be honest, there would be at least one additional scenario, testing the response of a group shown a sketch with a white person behaving badly, moronicaly, criminally, etc., to see that affected their judgement of the guilt of the assumed white offenders when presented with the vignette later.

All this quoted 'study' proves, if anything, is that media portayals of race may affect decisions/judgements immediately following exposure. It says nothing about long term effects, if any. It says nothing about whether similar effects were found for other races, likley because the ******* who designed the study wanted to assume his conclusion. Unless you test for and rule out similar responses to other races this study says absolutely diddly **** specific about blacks and the media.

Television portrayals of African-Americans and other minorities...

Once more says diddly **** about the point because, at least as you quote the findings, it looks like the putz who designed the study forgot to use controls again and forgot to not assume his own findings and let that slant the study design. What did the TV tell these kids about whites, about asians, about latinos? Did the study bother to check, or is this just another "Do you still beat your wife?" approach to research that you seem to favor so far?

Not surprisingly, much research has been conducted over the years...

Got something from this century? We are dealing with your claims about the current state of affairs, not what may or may not have been the case 30-50+ years ago.

African-Americans and members of other minorities appeared on prime-time television...

Once more, anything from this century? I highly doubt any if all of the shows they studied are even still on the air which kind of makes the findings a bit useless.

African-American characters are not only limited to roles in select comedies...

Still waiting on you to get to the twenty first century.

The Effects of Stereotypical Portrayals on Person Perception...

You might want to throw some " in here or a credit or link to Invalid Link Removed from which you copied and pasted this bit. Sloppily too, I might add. A nice summary of antiquated shows no one under thirty has likely ever seen with regularity, if at all, making its applicability limited to say the least.

To begin with, the white victim totals in the Justice Department's victimization data include those termed Hispanic by the Census, since nine in ten Latino/as are considered racially white by government record-keepers. Since Latinos and Latinas tend to live closer to blacks than non-Hispanic whites, this means that many "white" victims of "black crime" are Latino or Latina, and that in any given year, the majority of black crime victims would be people of color, not whites.

To begin with "whites and hispanics" are a victim category in the FBI numbers, they are separated in the perpetrator category. so I hate to break it to you, but this works even further against you in the stats. A hispanic attacked by another hispanic is classified as a white perpetrator with a hispanic victim. If a hispanic commits a hate crime against black, the crime is reported as a white perpetrator and a black victim. And even with these numbers slanted to make whites appear as bad as possible, blacks are still more than two times as likely to commit a black on white hate crime.

Even without breaking out Hispanic victims of "black crime," your position is without merit. In 2002, whites, including Latinos, were about 81.5 percent of the population .

That same year, whites (including Latinos) were 51 percent of the victims of violent crimes committed by blacks, meaning that whites were victimized by blacks less often than would have been expected by random chance, given the extent to which whites were available to be victimized.

Quite interesting. Because according to 2001-2003 data from NVCS, where again whites are allowed to be perps but not victims, blacks were 39 times more likely to commit general violent crimes against whites than the reverse, about 135 times more likely to commit robbery, 115 times more likely to commit rape, and about 50 times more likely to commit a general sexual assault.

Here's another one that's fun: "What about interracial murder? The Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) include the race of the victim and offender, and make it possible to calculate rates of interracial murder. In 2002, blacks were 16 times more likely to murder W&H than the reverse. SHR statistics from 1976 to 2002 tell us blacks murdered 26,727 W&H during those 26 years, and W&H murdered 10,207 blacks, making the black-on-W&H murder rate 17 times that of the W&H-on-black murder rate."
Color of Crime, 2005

From 1995-2000, blacks were 65 percent of racial and ethnic hate-crime victims, while whites were 21 percent of such victims. Adjusted for population, any given black person was nearly twenty times more likely to be the victim of a racially motivated hate crime than any given white. In 2001, there were approximately 4.6 times more white-on-black than black-on-white hate crimes , despite the fact that whites were between six and seven times more available in the population to become victims.

Source?

"In 2002, there were 8,832 bias crimes reported to the FBI, of which 5,738 were crimes of race or ethnic origin. The rest were for reasons of religion, sexual orientation, or disability. The FBI says there were 5,119 suspected hate crime offenders whose race was known. Of that number, 3,712 were W&H and 1,082 were black.47 It is widely believed that blacks are generally victims rather than perpetrators of hate crimes, but they are actually more likely than W&H to be offenders. On the basis of offense rates—number of offenses divided by population—blacks were 82 percent more likely than W&H to commit hate crimes of all kinds, including those based on religion, disability, etc."
Color of Crime, 2005

As for profiling, many seem to insist that because of higher black crime rates, it only makes good sense to focus police efforts on the black community. But this is demonstrably ludicrous. If, as the Justice Department data suggests, blacks commit somewhere between 25-30 percent of violent crime in most years (23 percent in 2002), to profile blacks for crime will result in police being wrong, between 70-75 percent of the time.

Profiling like on the New Jersey turnpike where, "The PublicS ervice Research Institute in Maryland observed 40,000 cars on the turnpike and found blacks were twice as likely to speed as whites. The disproportion was even greater for people driving 90 miles per hour or more. While blacks were 25 percent of speeders, they were 23 percent of those stopped by police, again a figure that shows, if anything, police are less rigorous about stopping blacks than people of other races."
The Color of Crime, 2005 - Are Cops Racist, PSRI, 2002

United States Department of Justice, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, "Hate Crime Statistics," (various years, 1995-2000), and calculations by the author.

United States Department of Justice, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 2002, "Hate Crime Statistics, 2001."

Peter Greenwood and Alan Abrahamse. Selective Incapacitation (Santa Monica, CA: Rand Corporation, 1982); Todd Clear, "Backfire: When Incarceration Increases Crime," Oklahoma Criminal Justice Research Center, at: Invalid Link Removed

Ah, finally some sources. Of course since nothing is really referenced there's no way to tell if what you're citing actually supports your claim. You might want to credit Invalid Link Removed here, as he seems to have done most of your writing for you. And here is Invalid Link Removed which shows how he ****s up his analysis majorly to try and make PC myths hold when they plainly don't.
 
Heres a book you may want to pick up as well Luther, and unlike many of your statistics is at least from this century.

Thicker than Blood

How Racial Statistics Lie

Tukufu Zuberi

A clear explanation and provocative look at the impact of new technologies on world society.

In our complex and multicultural society, racial identity is often as much a matter of family background, economic opportunity, and geographic location as it is determined by skin color or hair texture. And yet study after study is released and reported in the media regarding African American test scores, Asian American social mobility, and the white domination of our political institutions. In short, there is a fundamental disconnect between the nuanced understanding many people have of race and the ways it is studied and quantified by researchers.

In this timely and hard-hitting volume, Tukufu Zuberi offers a concise account of the historical connections between the development of the idea of race and the birth of social statistics. Zuberi describes the ways race-differentiated data is misinterpreted in the social sciences and asks essential questions about the ways racial statistics are used: What is the value of knowing the income disparities or differences in crime and incarceration rates, differences in test scores, infant mortality rates, abortion frequencies, or choices of sexual partner between different racial groups? When these data are available, what should the principles be guiding their dissemination, interpretation, and analysis? How does the availability of this information shape public discourse, alter scientific research agendas, inform political decision making, and ultimately influence the very social meaning of racial difference?

When statistics are interpreted in a racist manner, no matter how inadvertent the racism may be, the public is exposed to seemingly neutral information that in its effect is anything but neutral. Zuberi argues that statistical analysis can and must be deracialized, and that this deracialization is essential to the goal of achieving social justice for all. He concludes by putting forward a principle of racially conscious social justice, offering an incendiary and necessary correction to the inaccuracies that have plagued this topic at the center of American life.

"Zuberi, who was named one of Philadelphia's 76 smartest people by Philadelphia Magazine, has written a brilliant new book, Thicker Than Blood. One of the most powerful claims of the book is that instead of being a fixed biological reality, race is instead a socially produced phenomenon. His point is to show just how vicious—especially through the use of statistics-the notion of race has been when it has been employed to protect the interest of those in power (whites), especially those who say that because race does not exist, racism is not real." —Michael Eric Dyson in The Chicago Sun-Times

"A call to action and, Zuberi hopes, a precursor to a conversation about the real meaning of race, ethnicity, and political power in America." —Time Magazine

“In this timely, hard-hitting volume Tukufu Zuberi offers a concise account of the development of the idea of race and the birth of social statistics.” —Hispanic Outlook

“Zuberi presents a detailed history of racial statistics, and the story he tells is disturbing in many ways.” —Contemporary Sociology

"Tukufu Zuberi's critical assessment of the analysis of racial data in Thicker Than Blood is a tour de force. His discussion and evaluation of the use of racial statistics in historical and cross-cultural contexts is original and important. I strongly feel that all students and scholars in the social sciences should read this thoughtful book." —William Julius Wilson

Tukufu Zuberi is professor of sociology and director of the African Census Analysis Project at the University of Pennsylvania. He is the author of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (1995).

232 pages | 5 7/8 x 9 | cloth: 2001/paper: 2003
 
Screw it, here's the whole response to Wise, it's worth the read through:

The Color Of Crime and the Liberal Response
Invalid Link Removed

Several years ago, the New Century Foundation, called “White Nationalist” by supporters and “racist” by the Civil Rights Crusaders, published a study called “The Color Of Crime” on race and crime based on official government statistics. In response, Tim Wise penned an article that sought to counter the report. Whether you agree with the goals of the New Century Foundation, it is hard not to conclude that Mr. Wise‘s response (1) is meant to obfuscate the issue, while “The Color Of Crime” is a mostly honest account of what our own government states. Those who support affirmative action must be especially upset at the lying and false logic used by Mr. Wise.

The New Century Foundation report found that:

Blacks are much more dangerous than whites as evidenced by higher crime rates;
Crime statistics are backed not by arrests, but rather interviews with victims who have little reason to lie about their attackers’ identities;
Black criminals target whites more often than each other. Meanwhile white criminals almost always victimize each other. For that reason, a black man is 110 times more likely to rape a white woman than a white man is to rape a black woman. Likewise, blacks are 135 times more likely to commit a robbery against whites than the reverse. The trend of blacks overwhelmingly targeting whites in interracial crimes is consistent whether one looks at “regular” or “hate” crimes;
Black crime rates justify racial profiling, since it only makes sense to focus law enforcement attention on those who commit a disproportionate share of crime;
The report insinuates that interracial crime data makes fear of large young black men rational and logical response to the crime rates.
Now let’s take Wise’s response step by step:

“a close examination of these arguments proves that (Jared) Taylor (the head of the New Century Foundation) and his followers are either statistically illiterate, or knowingly deceive for political effect.”

So far, so good the readers must think. We are looking to see how numbers got manipulated by Jared Taylor in the report.

“According to several studies, when community and personal economic status is comparable between whites and blacks, there are no significant racial crime differences (1). In other words, the implicit message of Taylor’s report–that blacks are dangerous because they are black–is insupportable.”

There are two problems with what Mr. Wise has written. For one, there are no studies that show that poverty is responsible for all the difference in crime.

There are some studies that show that poor people are more violent and otherwise more prone to crime than the wealthy and middle class. However, even the wealthiest blacks commit several times more crime than the poorest whites, and the more violent the crime, the more likely blacks to commit it.

If poverty predicted crime, then we would expect the share of the violent crime rate to be the same as the share of the poor population. It doesn’t.

Blacks are 24% of the poor in the United States (2) At the same time, they commit 40% of violent crime in the country. (3)

Thus, we see that even amongst the poor, blacks are 60% more likely to commit more crime. Even the wealthiest blacks, such as hip-hop superstars and major league athletes, commit crime at rates significantly above that of even the poorest whites.

This is often interpreted by the politically correct media as a sign of a culture where celebrities can do what they please. Yet, we do not see the same behavior among the famous whites. True, Britney Spears can go outside without panties and spread her legs in front of photographers - but that is hardly the same as shooting your rival singer. And while athletes keep getting arrested, it is usually black athletes. When was the last time one saw a hockey player get arrested? That doesn’t happen even in Canada where hockey is the national sport and the celebrity-obsessed culture is just as bad as in the United States.

The second problem with blaming crime on poverty is the problem of “the chicken or the egg”. Did poverty cause increased crime or are the criminals dysfunctional individuals who cannot bring themselves up into the middle or upper class?

Evidence suggest that the criminals are poor because they are dysfunctional. After all, when the “ghetto youths” suddenly get multi-million dollar contracts as musicians and athletes, they continue to commit crime at tremendous levels. The crime rate among millionaire black athletes and rappers is much closer to those of the poor blacks living in the ghetto than to businessmen who made their millions using their brains.

Mr Wise continued: “Secondly, to claim that blacks are more dangerous than whites because of official crime rates, is to ignore that when it comes to everyday threats to personal well-being, whites far and away lead the pack in all kinds of destructive behaviors: corporate pollution, consumer fraud, violations of health and safety standards on the job, and launching wars on the basis of deceptive evidence, to name a few. Each year, far more people die because of corporate malfeasance, occupational health violations and pollution than all the street crime combined, let alone street crime committed by African Americans.”

Here Wise can’t argue with plain facts, so he just changes the topic. First of all, consumer fraud and pollution is not the same thing as gang rape with a gun in the victim’s face. When you are walking on the street at night, you aren’t thinking, “God, I hope nobody here puts up a sign with deceptive advertising.” Instead you are thinking, “This place is dark, it is known for its high crime and there’s nobody around. I need to get out of here as fast as possible before someone robs or rapes me.”

When people fear crime while walking on the street, they think of homicide, robbery, rape and other violence, not that some landlord forgot to install a fire detector. To compare violent crimes with failing to keep a clean restaurant kitchen - and then to suggest that the dirty kitchen is worse than murder - is the ultimate lie that can only be presented in vague terms meant to confuse the reader.

Second, blacks are several times more likely to commit white collar crimes than whites. They are less likely to commit fraud than violent crimes, whereas whites are less likely to commit violence than fraud. However, when comparing fraud among the two races, blacks still are responsible for far more crime than whites.

“Next, Taylor claims that most victims of black violent crime are white, and thus, that blacks are violently targeting whites. Furthermore, since only a small share of the victims of white criminals are black (only 4.4 percent in 2002, for example), this means that blacks are far more of a threat to whites than vice-versa. But there are several problems with these claims.”

The only problem here is that Wise does not want to admit basic facts. Unfortunately for him, the numbers are very clear-cut here.

“To begin with, the white victim totals in the Justice Department’s victimization data include those termed Hispanic by the Census, since nine in ten Latino/as are considered racially white by government record-keepers. Since Latino/as tend to live closer to blacks than non-Hispanic whites, this means that many “white” victims of “black crime” are Latino/a, and that in any given year, the majority of black crime victims would be people of color, not whites.”

This is yet another lie. Because of political correctness, the federal government counts Hispanic criminals as white, but Hispanic victims are … Hispanic! Some of the remaining 12% of victims who were neither white nor black are Latino. As we see, whites are not only targeted more often than blacks, they are targeted far more often than Latinos, even though they live farther away from the ghetto, as Wise admits.

“In 2002, whites, including Latinos, were about 81.5 percent of the population (3). That same year, whites (including Latinos) were 51 percent of the victims of violent crimes committed by blacks, meaning that whites were victimized by blacks less often than would have been expected by random chance, given the extent to which whites were available to be victimized (4).”

This statement directly contradicts what Wise said before. White people do not live in close proximity to blacks. Blacks who are poor and violent overwhelmingly live in a black ghetto where they see hardly any whites. Violent criminals usually do not have jobs outside the ghetto (if at all) and do not go to school outside the their neighborhood (if at all). Ghetto blacks can go for days or even weeks without seeing a white person in their neighborhood, and those blacks who are dysfunctional and have no job, do not venture out of their neighborhood as much as most people would.

The opportunity for dysfunctional blacks to victimize whites, therefore, is nowhere near 51%. To suggest that most of the people one would see in the black ghetto are white would be either a lie or a sign of incredible ignorance. Considering that the average ghetto youth sees even hundreds of times more blacks than whites, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the statistic that blacks commit 51% of the crime against whites is that whites are purposely being targeted.

Additionally, readers must realize that most of the black-on-black violence involves relatives (e.g., domestic violence by a husband against the wife), gang-on-gang warfare or disputes between criminals, pimps or drug dealers. White people, however, rarely “compete” with black criminals. Even white criminals, such as corporate tax evaders and Italian mobsters, very rarely fight with blacks for the same turf.

“As for the claim that blacks victimize whites at rates that are far higher than the reverse, though true, this statistic is meaningless, for a few obvious but overlooked reasons, first among them the simple truth that if whites are more available as potential victims, we would naturally expect black criminals to victimize whites more often than white criminals would victimize blacks.”

It’s fascinating to read that the targeting of whites by blacks is “meaningless” according to Wise. As is his usual routine (and done by all politically correct liberals), he states a vague conclusion without backing it up. What are the “few obvious” reasons why it is meaningless that blacks victimize whites at rates far higher than the reverse?

He again states that there are more whites. But the large number of whites in rural South Dakota and Salt Lake City has nothing to do with black ghettos in Detroit, Washington, New Orleans, Newark and other major cities. There are very few whites in black neighborhoods, and the 51% rate suggests that the odds are huge that the few whites living in a black neighborhood would fall victim to violent crime. What are the other “obvious reasons”? Wise does not say.

“From 1995-2000, blacks were 65 percent of racial and ethnic hate-crime victims, while whites were 21 percent of such victims”.
 
This is yet another case of Wise playing fast and loose with facts. Blacks and whites aren’t the only two races in the United States, so one should look at how often they commit hate crimes, not how often they are victimized. The reason is simple: a black victim of hate crime need not suffer at the hands of whites and may be victimized by Hispanics and others. In fact, several Mexican gangs have openly declared a war on blacks, especially those living inside or near Mexican neighborhoods. The vast majority of anti-black crime that is not committed by fellow blacks is committed by Latinos.

But now let’s look at hate crimes as committed by each race. Whites commit twice as many acts classified as hate-crimes. But whites outnumber blacks almost 6 to 1, meaning that blacks are about 3 times more likely per capita to commit a hate crime. Furthermore, due to political correctness, a white-on-black crime is much more likely to be classified as a hate crime than a black-on-white crime. Well over 95% of interracial crimes involving blacks and whites involve black criminals and white victims.

Mr. Wise then continues with his usual routine that blacks are more likely to see whites than the reverse because whites are the majority in this country. However, as I’ve pointed out, those blacks most likely to commit crime are usually not the sort to have jobs and schools outside the ghetto, and therefore see whites very rarely.

“White Fear of Blacks - The Height of Irrationality

Of course, above and beyond the mere statistical chicanery at the heart of Taylor’s report, the larger point is that for Taylor and other racists to claim that black-on-white crime data justifies white fear of African Americans, or racial profiling by police is sheer ignorance.”

Of course, even if blacks did not specifically targeted whites, considering that they are more crime prone and more likely to be violent and use weapons when they are committing a crime, it would be perfectly rational to fear them.

Considering that most victims of black crime are white, while they are only a tiny minority of the people that are “available as victims” to dysfunctional black youths in the ghetto, it would seem perfectly rational to fear blacks. This would be so even if blacks are more violent due to poverty, which they aren’t. After all, if you are getting raped, your suffering is not any less if someone tells you that the rapist has just received welfare, food stamps, Medicaid and government-subsidize housing in the projects.

But who needs basic statistics like “Blacks commit 8 times more crime and most of it is against whites” when you can come up with some ridiculous, vague explanations mean to confuse the reader so as to allow Mr. Wise to seem intelligent, while accusing anyone who disagrees with his position of being a racist.

“Since blacks committed roughly 1.2 million violent crimes in 2002, if seventy percent of these were committed by seven percent of the black offenders, this would mean that at most there were perhaps 390,000 individual black offenders that year (13). In a population of 29.3 million over the age of twelve, this would represent no more than 1.3 percent of the black population that committed a violent crime in 2002.”

That’s nice! So in 2002, 1.3% of all blacks over the age of 12 committed a violent crime. Not just a crime, but a violent crime.

Now consider that half of all blacks are women, who are about 10 times less likely to commit crime than men. That would mean that in just one year, 2.5% of black males over the age of 12 committed a violent crime.

Between the age of 12 and 72 when the average black man dies, 60 years go by. If 2.5% commit a violent crime in an average year of their life, over the course of 60 years, a staggering percentage of black men will commit a violent crime.

In fact, about a third of all blacks have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a crime. Since at least some criminals get away with their acts and middle class blacks commit less crime than ghetto blacks, one must conclude that the odds that of a ghetto youth committing a crime at some point in his life are probably better than 50%. And as stated above, most of that crime will be against the few whites who had the misfortune to wind up in a poor black neighborhood.

Now consider that the majority of black males are either too young or too mature to commit much violent crime. Those between the ages of 16 and 25, the most dangerous demographic, make up about a quarter of the black population. Between the ages of 16 and 25, a black male has a better than 1 in 20 chance of committing a crime in that particular year. Given that ten years goes by between the age of 16 and 25, the odds of a black young man committing a violent crime during his youth are simply spectacular.

Now add to the violence committed by those under 16 and over 25, the non-violent crimes (such as stealing a car), as well as other anti-social behavior (such as “punking” white people just for fun), and the whites’ fear of large young black men becomes perfectly rational.

Even those numbers underestimate the dangers faced by whites in a black neighborhood. Not only are whites the majority of crime victims while being hardly ever seen in the ghetto, but the people in the ghetto are far more likely to be violent than middle class blacks who have moved out that neighborhood. The odds of a large black man living in the ghetto committing a crime (violent or not) at some point between the ages of 16 and 25 are probably at least 50-50.

Furthermore, consider what it would mean for a white person living in a black neighborhood to know that 2.5% of all males over the age of 12 will commit a violent crime this year.

2.5% is 1-in-40 chance. On any given day, a person sees probably hundreds of people. You see people on the bus, on the street, in the supermarket, in your building, everywhere you turn. To live in a place where 2.5% means that if you see 250 men in a given day (not a huge number at all for someone using public transportation to get to work or who lives in housing projects with thousands of people in several large buildings), it means that every day you will see 6-7 people who’ll commit a crime this year, plus non-violent criminals and plus the people who’ve committed crime in the past or will commit it in future years.

Blacks living in the ghetto have a crime rate that is at least 2-3 times higher than amongst middle-class blacks. Thus, a person living in a ghetto probably sees every day about 15 people who’ll commit a violent crime this year, and most of it against whites.

Now let’s do the math over the course of the year. There are 365 days times and at 15 criminals every day, one will have about 5,500 annual encounters with criminals. Now count that over the course of 3, 5, 10 years.

So should whites be afraid to live in black neighborhoods? If they have any common sense, they should be horrified.

Why is it safer for blacks? Because first of all, blacks are not targeted as much. Second, most blacks who are victims of violent crime are criminals themselves. Not all of them, obviously, but a clear majority.

What that means is that the ghetto is fairly safe for a decent black person living in a ghetto without joining a gang, pimping a prostitute or selling drugs.

This does it mean that all blacks are criminals or that whites should be afraid of all blacks. The point here is not whether whites should be afraid of all blacks, but rather that they should be scared to live in a black neighborhood.

Even if the vast majority of black people aren’t criminals, one is not concerned with the overall crime rate, but rather with the odds of one being victimized. Even if 97% of the people around you are not criminals, the other 3% are enough of a threat so that you can be assured of being a victim, sooner or later. If you are raped, you are raped - regardless of the liberal slogan that “most people are law-abiding”.

It does not matter that most people will not commit a crime. It just matters that you will almost certainly be a victim.

Of course, once you get to know a black person, you should judge him as an individual without regard for his race. But if you are in a neighborhood of 40,000 people and 1,000 of them will commit a violent crime this year, and most of those crimes will specifically target “your people”, you should flee before getting robbed, raped or even murdered.

In conclusion, Wise has gone out of his way to try to manipulate very clear statistics. Blacks are much more violent than whites, even when one takes poverty into consideration. In fact, a black man will probably commit a crime at some point in his life, probably between the ages of 16 and 25. Whites will be the majority of the victims of black crime and most black victims are usually “competition” - gangsters, drug dealers, pimps.

Few whites live in the ghetto, but if they do, they will almost certainly fall victim to crime, probably both violent and non-violent. Even a simple walk through the ghetto in a place without potential witnesses, especially at night, is highly dangerous for whites. In private we all know this. And if Wise doesn’t believe what I just wrote, why doesn’t he send his daughter, sister or mother to a black ghetto at night!
 
AVMA numbers show just 26.6 percent of black households owned pets compared to 63.1 percent of white households, 57.5 percent of Spanish/Hispanic households and 4.9 percent of Asian households (see Table 2, p. 11).

AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.
 
Could you provide some examples from say, yesterday or today?



How do you 'know' you aren't welcome?



So do I. I prefer wearing jeans or shorts and a t shirt. I have to wear a shirt, tie, and slacks at work. Exactly what the hell is racist about that? Nothing. So assuming a similar standard applied to you, why is it all of a sudden racist?

You know discrimination is not a negative word. A discriminating person dresses well, shows some class in how they act toward others, and keeps good company. I can't comment on your experience because I'm not a black guy in America today. I can comment on my experience though and it seems any time any standard of any kind is enforced on blacks there are always some who say it's racist, even if that same standard is applied equally across the board to all people. If you think people should be held to the same standards I agree. But all to often what I hear sounds like an argument for no standards.



So have I. And there's a bookstore I can't go into around here because loss prevention is up my ass the second I walk in the door for some reason even though I've never stolen anything since I was 17 years old. I have cops on my ass tailgating me on a regular basis, I've stopped and harassed before, my trunk emptied, no tickets issued. You think the police going off on a power trip on you makes you special? Welcome to the club.



What media? The only media I know of goes out of its way to portray black males as harmless and the same as all other guys. That same media often does not report and actiely hides the race of assailants in black on white crimes to avoid 'racially charged' situatioms. That is except for the media of hip hop and rap, which blacks seem to control and which portrays young black men as thugs and lunatics. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.


Raw numbers, yes. Per capita black on white crime rates for all types of crimes including hate motivated attacks are all higher than white on black equivalents. See the FBI uniform crime report, The Color of Crime, etc. If the rates stayed the same and the population proportions were reversed there would be truckloads of black yahoos chaining white guys to their pick-ups and dragging them to their deaths on a weekly basis.



So do I, because I'm 6'4" sans boots and people seem to think I scowl.



What I, and you might want to consider other whites as well are thinking, is that you are seeing racism where normal human experience exists. Everyone gets followed by loos prevention. Like I said above there's one store I go into where they're on my ass no matter how many times I come in and buy **** and leave without stealing. Something about me sets them off. Who knows what. As for employment, how do you know prejudice and bias are what you're dealing with, or are you just presuming?

Since I hire people for a living, let me tell you want I can't say or do. I get a paradeof human vegetables every day, all day, to deal with. All races, all religions, all ages, etc. Conversing with most of them is like trying to explain high energy physics to an artichoke. The exceptions, we hire, or try to. So one day this young guy comes in. Black as night, wearing a great suit, looking good, well put together, smiling and, and here's the kicker, unbelievably well spoken. You tend to notice things like that when the majority of the people you deal with all day can barely speak. This kid was intelligent, thought before he spoke, and you could see he was actually choosing words based on their nuances. Unfortunately he was an auditor with no control experience and I needed a controller. Neither me nor my CFO could compliment this kid or recommend him. If either of us had dared say anything along the lines of a compliment to his dress, comportment, articulateness, we run the risk of being called racists. Why? Because he's black, and the implication might be taken by some that we're saying, "Gee, we got us here a negra that can spek! Let's put him in a side show..."

Maybe a reasonable presumption according to some people. However the majority of people I see in a day are white and barely able to go beyond monosyllables. And when a white guy with a great presentation comes in who is impressive as a candidate but off target for what we need, I can at least say, "It was a pleasure to meet you, you're well presented and I think you're going places, I'm just sorry it wasn't a match with us." I can recommend him to an outside recruiter and give them an honest run down of what I thought. With a black guy I can't, because I have to walk on egg shells worrying about how what I say might be taken.

So let me ask you, is it 'right' or 'fair' for me to have to put my job at risk to compliment someone? How about risking a lawsuit for both me and my company? Also, am I not supposed to deal with reality? Like I wrote earlier I have good and bad workers here from all races, but the blunt truth is the majority of bad workers, and by bad I mean people who mouth off to their bosses, consistently show up late, finish work late if at all, etc., are blacks. I didn't make them behave that way. And they are given every opportunity to improve and usually don't. And as an adjunct to that, if a white guy is a problem employee he's out on his ass faster than **** through a goose. If we're having a problem with a black employee or a woman or a latino or any other 'protected' minority it takes months of documentation and paperwork showing incompetence, and losses to the business, before we can make a move and fire the person, just to cover our asses on any potential lawsuits.

I don't doubt the existence of racism, it's a corralary to general stupidity. But I think it's necessary for all people to look at not just their subjective exeriences but put them in the context of the whole of reality. In your experience you deal with racism daily. In my experience I often wish I could be as protected on the job as blacks are and get away with the **** I see them routinely getting away with. I would kill for that level of legal protection and job security. If I call my boss an ******* and moron to his face I'm on the street within minutes. A black guy who did the same is still employed here while we document his screw ups to the point where we feel safe enough to can him. Otherwise we risk firing him for a 'cultural misunderstanding' and end up paying his salary for the year anyway.

Thank you for posting, this is a prime example of the new racism that has taken hold among many whites...

"A new form of prejudice has come to prominence, one that is proccupied with matters of moral character, informed by the virtues associated with the traditions of individualism. At it's center are the contentions that blacks do not try hard enough to overcome the difficulties they face and that they take what they have not earned. Today, we say, prejudice is expressed in the language of American individualism."

"More poignantly, most whites insist that minorities (espeically blacks) are the ones responsible for whatever "race problem" we have in this country. They publically denounce blacks for "playing the race card," such as affirmative actions, and for cying "racism" whenever they are criticized by whites. Most whites believe that if blacks and other minorities would just stop thinking about the past, work hard, and complain less (particularly about racial discrimination), then Americans of all hues could "all get along."

But regardless of whites' sincere fictions, racial considerations shade almost everything in America. Blacks and dark-skinned racial minorities lag well behind whites in virtually every areaof social life; thay are about three times more likely to be poor than whits, earn about 40 percent less than whites, and have about a tenth of the net worth that whites have. They also receive inferior education compared to whites, even when they attend integrated institutions. In terms of housing, black owned units comparable to white-owned ones are valued at 35 percent less.

This my friend is the form that you have, I actually feel very sorry you lol. Black Americans are extremely resillient despite these attitudes, and we will continue to make great stides in entertainment, culture, and politics. 60 years ago we were being lynched openly, and now two of the most powerful men in American are black men. And there is not a damn thing you can do about it lol!!!I am extremely proud to be a black american. And I still find ways to be sucessful despite people like you!!! God Bless America.
 
Could you provide some examples from say, yesterday or today?


How do you 'know' you aren't welcome?



So do I. I prefer wearing jeans or shorts and a t shirt. I have to wear a shirt, tie, and slacks at work. Exactly what the hell is racist about that? Nothing. So assuming a similar standard applied to you, why is it all of a sudden racist?

You know discrimination is not a negative word. A discriminating person dresses well, shows some class in how they act toward others, and keeps good company. I can't comment on your experience because I'm not a black guy in America today. I can comment on my experience though and it seems any time any standard of any kind is enforced on blacks there are always some who say it's racist, even if that same standard is applied equally across the board to all people. If you think people should be held to the same standards I agree. But all to often what I hear sounds like an argument for no standards.



So have I. And there's a bookstore I can't go into around here because loss prevention is up my ass the second I walk in the door for some reason even though I've never stolen anything since I was 17 years old. I have cops on my ass tailgating me on a regular basis, I've stopped and harassed before, my trunk emptied, no tickets issued. You think the police going off on a power trip on you makes you special? Welcome to the club.



What media? The only media I know of goes out of its way to portray black males as harmless and the same as all other guys. That same media often does not report and actiely hides the race of assailants in black on white crimes to avoid 'racially charged' situatioms. That is except for the media of hip hop and rap, which blacks seem to control and which portrays young black men as thugs and lunatics. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.



Raw numbers, yes. Per capita black on white crime rates for all types of crimes including hate motivated attacks are all higher than white on black equivalents. See the FBI uniform crime report, The Color of Crime, etc. If the rates stayed the same and the population proportions were reversed there would be truckloads of black yahoos chaining white guys to their pick-ups and dragging them to their deaths on a weekly basis.



So do I, because I'm 6'4" sans boots and people seem to think I scowl.



What I, and you might want to consider other whites as well are thinking, is that you are seeing racism where normal human experience exists. Everyone gets followed by loos prevention. Like I said above there's one store I go into where they're on my ass no matter how many times I come in and buy **** and leave without stealing. Something about me sets them off. Who knows what. As for employment, how do you know prejudice and bias are what you're dealing with, or are you just presuming?

Since I hire people for a living, let me tell you want I can't say or do. I get a paradeof human vegetables every day, all day, to deal with. All races, all religions, all ages, etc. Conversing with most of them is like trying to explain high energy physics to an artichoke. The exceptions, we hire, or try to. So one day this young guy comes in. Black as night, wearing a great suit, looking good, well put together, smiling and, and here's the kicker, unbelievably well spoken. You tend to notice things like that when the majority of the people you deal with all day can barely speak. This kid was intelligent, thought before he spoke, and you could see he was actually choosing words based on their nuances. Unfortunately he was an auditor with no control experience and I needed a controller. Neither me nor my CFO could compliment this kid or recommend him. If either of us had dared say anything along the lines of a compliment to his dress, comportment, articulateness, we run the risk of being called racists. Why? Because he's black, and the implication might be taken by some that we're saying, "Gee, we got us here a negra that can spek! Let's put him in a side show..."

Maybe a reasonable presumption according to some people. However the majority of people I see in a day are white and barely able to go beyond monosyllables. And when a white guy with a great presentation comes in who is impressive as a candidate but off target for what we need, I can at least say, "It was a pleasure to meet you, you're well presented and I think you're going places, I'm just sorry it wasn't a match with us." I can recommend him to an outside recruiter and give them an honest run down of what I thought. With a black guy I can't, because I have to walk on egg shells worrying about how what I say might be taken.

So let me ask you, is it 'right' or 'fair' for me to have to put my job at risk to compliment someone? How about risking a lawsuit for both me and my company? Also, am I not supposed to deal with reality? Like I wrote earlier I have good and bad workers here from all races, but the blunt truth is the majority of bad workers, and by bad I mean people who mouth off to their bosses, consistently show up late, finish work late if at all, etc., are blacks. I didn't make them behave that way. And they are given every opportunity to improve and usually don't. And as an adjunct to that, if a white guy is a problem employee he's out on his ass faster than **** through a goose. If we're having a problem with a black employee or a woman or a latino or any other 'protected' minority it takes months of documentation and paperwork showing incompetence, and losses to the business, before we can make a move and fire the person, just to cover our asses on any potential lawsuits.

I don't doubt the existence of racism, it's a corralary to general stupidity. But I think it's necessary for all people to look at not just their subjective exeriences but put them in the context of the whole of reality. In your experience you deal with racism daily. In my experience I often wish I could be as protected on the job as blacks are and get away with the **** I see them routinely getting away with. I would kill for that level of legal protection and job security. If I call my boss an ******* and moron to his face I'm on the street within minutes. A black guy who did the same is still employed here while we document his screw ups to the point where we feel safe enough to can him. Otherwise we risk firing him for a 'cultural misunderstanding' and end up paying his salary for the year anyway.

And the answer to your questions CDP is NO I won't answer your questions or explain myself to you. Your bigotry is oozing from your post, and it is amusing to me how embittered you are when your Euopean ancestors control most of the world and still do. But it will never be enough, you always want more, reeking havoc around the globe and rapping the land of it's resources and forcing your culture and religion everywhere from Africa to the Artic. Your the very type of employer that makes my life more difficult. But beware times are changing, and not all whites hold your views.

However, you are right the most dangerous men in America are black men... educated black men. Because you damn sure aint gonna whoop us in athletics or entertainment. The highest paid actor in the world is a african-american. And so is our nations chief law enforcement officer. And so is your president. We are becoming a force to be Reckoned with in America and abroad, and there is nothing you can do about it. And no matter how much money you have, and how much power you hold, it won't make your pecker grow. I'm done.

Black Power
 
Thank you for posting, this is a prime example of the new racism that has taken hold among many whites...

Same question as to Luther, if you're not one in the same which given your tendency to quote without attribution I'm doubting: is there anything any white person could do that isn't racist?

"A new form of prejudice has come to prominence, one that is proccupied with matters of moral character, informed by the virtues associated with the traditions of individualism. At it's center are the contentions that blacks do not try hard enough to overcome the difficulties they face and that they take what they have not earned. Today, we say, prejudice is expressed in the language of American individualism."

Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. Unfortunately I never said nor do I think we are living in a post-race world. I just think blacks are too quick to blame racism when it's not always called for, and I think it's blacks as much as whites that try to maintain the colorblindness Bonilla-Silva critiques, because they refuse to acknowledge any negative factor can even be correlated with their race. Blacks commit more crime? Well that's because they're disproportionately poor. Adjusting for income still shows a higher crime rate? Must be racism, or aliens, or anything else other than some failure on the part of a lot of blacks to live up to basic civil standards. Why they fail is debatable. But yo can't debate much less solve a problem so long as you're walking around with blinders on.

"More poignantly, most whites insist that minorities (espeically blacks) are the ones responsible for whatever "race problem" we have in this country.

Incorrect. At least with regard to my point of view, I just think responsibiliy for the 'race problem' in this country isn't soley on white's shoulders.

They publically denounce blacks for "playing the race card," such as affirmative actions, and for cying "racism" whenever they are criticized by whites.

To the latter, damn straight. Criticism, friendly and otherwise, and the receiving of general unopleasant behavior from our fellow human beings is a part of life, not some mass conspiracy against one race or another. Everyone gets discriminated against for various reasons because people in this world have to make judgements. Some do it well, others poorly. That's life, not some mass conspiracy against blacks that they alone bear the burden of andmust fight against. Welcome to life.

Most whites believe that if blacks and other minorities would just stop thinking about the past, work hard, and complain less (particularly about racial discrimination), then Americans of all hues could "all get along."

I seriously doubt any whites think this, much less that the problems will go away. Blacks are still receiving substandard educations and are disproportionately hit by policies such as the drug war.

But regardless of whites' sincere fictions, racial considerations shade almost everything in America. Blacks and dark-skinned racial minorities lag well behind whites in virtually every areaof social life; thay are about three times more likely to be poor than whits, earn about 40 percent less than whites,

I'd like to see the source for this income figure. What's more, I do not want to see average wages for populations. All that does is make it look like whichever population has more poor people is making less for the same work when that is not the variable being cited. I would like to see a side by side comparrison of, for example, what a black lawyer with X amount of experience and schooling recieves vs a white with the same experience and schooling. Women's advocate groups use the same bullshit average to make the wage gap appear, it disappears when you compare men women of the same education and experience levels in the same jobs and eliminate the bias of having more people in lower but still equal paying jobs. The relevant info is what does a black janitor make vs a white janitor, a black lawyer vs a white, a black teacher vs a white, etc., normalized for schooling and experience.

I can tell you flat out what you cited is a bullshit statistic. If blacks were making 40% less than whites for comparable productivity levels every company in the country would hire as many blacks as they could and keep the difference. And that opens up a continuous profit advantage whereby someone can hire blacks for 39% less and still make out, but then his competitor can hire blacks for 38% and still make out, etc., etc., etc., until wages are generally equalized.

In other words someone claiming that group A earns on average 60% of the wages group B earns for the same output is about as ignorant of economics as you can get. There's no way in hell that either price would be maintainable over time because there's too much profit motive in trying to steal away the cheap labor until the differential all bust disappears and the price equalizez across the market. Another way of putting it is if blacks did the same work as whites for 60% on the dollar, there would be no black unemployment. What ****ing idiot is going to let a 40% profit differential stare him in the face and not take it?

and have about a tenth of the net worth that whites have. They also receive inferior education compared to whites, even when they attend integrated institutions. In terms of housing, black owned units comparable to white-owned ones are valued at 35 percent less.

None of this surprises me. However net worth is a function of savings and investment which is an individual thing and can be easily tilted given how much of the net worth of the whole country is concentrated in a few, mostly white, hands. As per the education, that was supposed to help blacks. Guess it didn't work. So no is integrated education racist? As JayHawk asked, what to do? Shall we segregate again, officially or unofficially?

This my friend is the form that you have, I actually feel very sorry you lol.

And I for you, since you are so soaked up by race that no other framework for viewing the world is possible for you. A bird could randomly **** on your head and you'd likely find a way to blame white people for it.

Black Americans are extremely resillient despite these attitudes, and we will continue to make great stides in entertainment, culture, and politics. 60 years ago we were being lynched openly, and now two of the most powerful men in American are black men. And there is not a damn thing you can do about it lol!!!I am extremely proud to be a black american. And I still find ways to be sucessful despite people like you!!! God Bless America.

Well, at this point it's safe to say you're either a troll or just a plain idiot. Either way you're not worth any more responses. If what you say is true, then you represent the worst of the black race. The criminal I can understand. The hopeless victim who can't live without some constant conflict against an imaginery foe I can't. You can't live your life without some scapegoat to blame for all your shortcomings, and even your simplest accomplishments are made against the harshest of adversity. Maybe one day you'll meet a fellow black man who knows what most of the world knows and can teach it to you. That is: life is hard for everyone; there is almost never anyone to blame for your failures but you, and you can likewise take credit for your successes; but in the end life is a series of kicks to the balls that we all have to endure, and our race has little to nothing to do with it. The smarter amongst us know this and try to live prosperously while dealing with it. Blacks, yourself among them it seems, are still stuck in the dellusion that there's anyone else to blame for their misfortunes than the man in the mirror.
 
You're not going to answer the questions because you're mentally incompetent or a troll. Either way, more power to you. The real power in this world doesn't give a **** about race, it gives a **** about money and political clout. If you truly are as dumb as you come across, then I can only hope I'm there the day you come into contact with that power, and get to watch as it ever so gently removes your testicles, examines them, and then says, "Excuse me, but are these yours?" At which point you'll realize you over estimated their size and will likely skuttle off into the shadows where you belong.

And the answer to your questions CDP is NO I won't answer your questions or explain myself to you. Your bigotry is oozing from your post, and it is amusing to me how embittered you are when your Euopean ancestors control most of the world and still do. But it will never be enough, you always want more, reeking havoc around the globe and rapping the land of it's resources and forcing your culture and religion everywhere from Africa to the Artic. Your the very type of employer that makes my life more difficult. But beware times are changing, and not all whites hold your views.

However, you are right the most dangerous men in America are black men... educated black men. Because you damn sure aint gonna whoop us in athletics or entertainment. The highest paid actor in the world is a african-american. And so is our nations chief law enforcement officer. And so is your president. We are becoming a force to be Reckoned with in America and abroad, and there is nothing you can do about it. And no matter how much money you have, and how much power you hold, it won't make your pecker grow. I'm done.

Black Power
 
Seriously, can't there be one of these discussions without the name-calling and e-thug mentality? Not only is it bothersome, it's childish and doesn't make your posts any more valid or convincing. This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.
 
Seriously, can't there be one of these discussions without the name-calling and e-thug mentality? Not only is it bothersome, it's childish and doesn't make your posts any more valid or convincing. This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.

I agree Bionic. Although I did not agree with CDP, I tried to be civil in expressing my opinion. I think this is the first time I have never been called a troll before :laugh:. Anyway, the quotes in my post were taken from an article called Racism without "Racists" by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. I got it out of a book that I read for a sociology class. The text book is called Race, Class, Gender. It's a collection of essays and from Americans from different races, genders, and orientations. They just talk about their experiences. It's really interesting for anybody. Check it out. In the end we are all humans, and we all have the same needs and wants. Let's focus on what we have in common instead of our differences. Peace.
 
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