Thoughts on Ketamine therapy for addiction

hyperCat

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Wanted to get some feedback from those chemistry types in here about ketamine as a treatment for addiction. My youngest son who is now 22 is currently weaning off of methadone treatment for an opiate addiction. His substance abuse issues started back when he was ~15. We sent him away to a rehab facility at 17 for 2 months and like most ppl, he’s had relapses several times since. However he’s done well on the methadone for over 2 years with I believe only a single relapse that was short lived. He really wants to get off of methadone as he feels he’s better equipped to cope with the triggers and cravings as he’s gotten older. He does use thc which he said helps with his anxiety and sleep. I spoke to a nurse at a ketamine clinic and she indicated they do have a protocol using ketamine for substance abuse that she said has been quite effective and long lasting for those she’s treated. It does require a maintenance dose every 3-6 months after the initial treatment. I’m just researching other therapies as a proactive measure in the case my son does fall back into using again, and this is one I wanted to check on. So if anyone has thoughts or experience with this, I’d appreciate any feedback.
 
botk1161

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Maybe not the answer yuou want to hear, but imo and with the years of being addicted to opiates, cocaine etc....the only thing that works is a 12 step progam (preferably AA as its not a watered down 12 step program). Taking drugs of any kind will only bring him back to his preferred drug and death or jails and institutions (if he is lucky). The sooner he stops trying otherwise, the more of his life that he can live with this monkey off his back (removal of the obsession). Obviously he has been introduced to 12 step. Whatever the case, this is and has been literally the only path out of this life - for many millions. Ketamine is highly addictive (I know). Addicts want more of anything that feels good. Offer an addict Ketamine therapy and they will say yes in a heartbeat. Until you fix what is causing the need for addiction, you will always have an obessed addict. All the best. God speed.
 
Smont

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Every person I've seen use a drug to get off another drug ends up addicted to the new drug or both. Ketamine is a drug, it's addictive physically and mentally, it can make you hallucinate and/or get high. If you ever seen someone too high on k it's pretty crazy, they call it the k hole. Not good at all. Completely detached from life and tripping out
 

hyperCat

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Maybe not the answer yuou want to hear, but imo and with the years of being addicted to opiates, cocaine etc....the only thing that works is a 12 step progam (preferably AA as its not a watered down 12 step program). Taking drugs of any kind will only bring him back to his preferred drug and death or jails and institutions (if he is lucky). The sooner he stops trying otherwise, the more of his life that he can live with this monkey off his back (removal of the obsession). Obviously he has been introduced to 12 step. Whatever the case, this is and has been literally the only path out of this life - for many millions. Ketamine is highly addictive (I know). Addicts want more of anything that feels good. Offer an addict Ketamine therapy and they will say yes in a heartbeat. Until you fix what is causing the need for addiction, you will always have an obessed addict. All the best. God speed.
Thx for the feedback and congrats on your sobriety. I understand where you’re coming from, and appreciate you sharing what has worked for you and millions of others. Yes, he’s familiar with the 12 step program but hasn’t necessarily embraced it fully. I’ve tried to keep an open mind about his situation, as everyone has different experiences and nuances with how they handle it. Him being a young adult now means he basically has complete ownership of this. We support him the best we know how. This is one reason I’ve been exploring relatively new treatments, as I know it isn’t a program that necessarily works for everyone depending where they may be at any given point in time in their journey. Perhaps it’s something he might embrace fully at some point.
 
Smont

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Ketamine treatment is basically methadone treatment, it's not a step down, it's just swapping one drug for another. I will say that 2 years is short for methadone so congratulations on that. I've seen ppl on it for over 10 years with very little reduction in dose. Almost like they don't want you to get off there drugs...
 
botk1161

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Thx for the feedback and congrats on your sobriety. I understand where you’re coming from, and appreciate you sharing what has worked for you and millions of others. Yes, he’s familiar with the 12 step program but hasn’t necessarily embraced it fully. I’ve tried to keep an open mind about his situation, as everyone has different experiences and nuances with how they handle it. Him being a young adult now means he basically has complete ownership of this. We support him the best we know how. This is one reason I’ve been exploring relatively new treatments, as I know it isn’t a program that necessarily works for everyone depending where they may be at any given point in time in their journey. Perhaps it’s something he might embrace fully at some point.
Most unfortuantely need to reach yet another lower rock bottom before they can embrace (lower their ego enough) a 12 step program.
 

hyperCat

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Ketamine treatment is basically methadone treatment, it's not a step down, it's just swapping one drug for another. I will say that 2 years is short for methadone so congratulations on that. I've seen ppl on it for over 10 years with very little reduction in dose. Almost like they don't want you to get off there drugs...
He’s seen guys at the methadone clinic who’ve been on it for years at doses approaching 300mg. Crazy. Highest he got to was I think 65mg, and that seemed to work for him. I understand the whole idea of treating one drug dependency with another isn’t ideal. However there is some interesting research with regards to ketamine and other psychoactive drugs, so really just looking into it for information at this point. I’m fully aware that there isn’t a magic bullet for this, but can’t hurt to look into things that could potentially have beneficial effects.
 
botk1161

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A good friend of mine and his girl friend snorted $37,000 of heroin in one year! He used kratom as a bridge, then a full rehab where he cried, shook, and pissed himself for 9 days. They're both off of opiates/opioids but he's on suboxone and she's on methadone and probably will be for life. Your son has got one hell of an up hill battle ahead, good luck to you guys.
Suboxone (what I used) and methadone just prolong the need for a real withdrawl. I went on suboxone and was weened off after a few months and it was hell when I no longer had it in my system. But no fkn way did I want to be on that crap for life.
 
Renew1

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Suboxone (what I used) and methadone just prolong the need for a real withdrawl. I went on suboxone and was weened off after a few months and it was hell when I no longer had it in my system. But no fkn way did I want to be on that crap for life.
I've never used either... But I've known people that have, and a lot of times while on it, they'd have the same addictive behaviors that they had on their preferred drugs.
:-(
 
botk1161

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My friend that's still on it has a rib injury and now no pain meds will work on him. It really is a horrible place to be. It all started when he broke his ankle in 2000 and was prescribed heavy doses of oxy. It's been a losing battle ever since.
I got addicted through an accident and slid so low blowing about 200k of my retirement savings along the way. He can win. I did in spades.
 
Rocket3015

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I guess I glad this is a sublet I know nothing about !! I have been in a lot of pain lately but the fear of opiate addiction has keep me from seeking relief from my Oxycodone.
 
hercules_22

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Wanted to get some feedback from those chemistry types in here about ketamine as a treatment for addiction. My youngest son who is now 22 is currently weaning off of methadone treatment for an opiate addiction. His substance abuse issues started back when he was ~15. We sent him away to a rehab facility at 17 for 2 months and like most ppl, he’s had relapses several times since. However he’s done well on the methadone for over 2 years with I believe only a single relapse that was short lived. He really wants to get off of methadone as he feels he’s better equipped to cope with the triggers and cravings as he’s gotten older. He does use thc which he said helps with his anxiety and sleep. I spoke to a nurse at a ketamine clinic and she indicated they do have a protocol using ketamine for substance abuse that she said has been quite effective and long lasting for those she’s treated. It does require a maintenance dose every 3-6 months after the initial treatment. I’m just researching other therapies as a proactive measure in the case my son does fall back into using again, and this is one I wanted to check on. So if anyone has thoughts or experience with this, I’d appreciate any feedback.
NA works 11 years clean this year due to the 12 step program
 
PhantomReaper

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Always sad to hear...Addiction is a horrible thing and still a huge problem in the World today..
Being a former addict, it's a hard ass road to stay clean..I've dragged myself across concrete for many years..before finally making the personal decision to Stop..
I believe if the situation is uncontrollable, an in-house program is the best route..followed by treatment, out-patient, until some months of sobriety are gained..
But that's just one guy's opinion..!!
Best of luck Brother..
 
Rocket3015

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I hope you don't mind, I posted this on my personal page, but I think I may get a little more in site here. Please let me know if I am stepping on anyone's toes!

I would really like to hear some input on this subject.

Over the course of the last few months, my pain level has really increased. I have been taking Tylenol as needed, about 8-10 a day. Over the past few week the pain is worst and last longer, some times I can barely move and when I do the pain is a 10. I have a script for Oxycodone and since February up to last week, I have taken 3 pills. Last weekend the pain was so bad I took one on Saturday morning and I felt great, pain not gone but manageable and it seem to last most of the day. Yesterday was the worst "Pain Day" yet, I could not sleep, every time I moved it felt like someone was putting an Ice Pick in my lower back. This morning I took a Oxycodone at about 3am had a cup of coffee and just waisted some time on social media. At about 4:15am my eyes started to get heavy and I went and laid down slept for a hour and a half, I woke up back pain about a 2-3 and I feel like I can function like a Normal Person. I guess my struggle, how do I manage the pain with out becoming dependent on pain killers.
 
botk1161

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I hope you don't mind, I posted this on my personal page, but I think I may get a little more in site here. Please let me know if I am stepping on anyone's toes!

I would really like to hear some input on this subject.

Over the course of the last few months, my pain level has really increased. I have been taking Tylenol as needed, about 8-10 a day. Over the past few week the pain is worst and last longer, some times I can barely move and when I do the pain is a 10. I have a script for Oxycodone and since February up to last week, I have taken 3 pills. Last weekend the pain was so bad I took one on Saturday morning and I felt great, pain not gone but manageable and it seem to last most of the day. Yesterday was the worst "Pain Day" yet, I could not sleep, every time I moved it felt like someone was putting an Ice Pick in my lower back. This morning I took a Oxycodone at about 3am had a cup of coffee and just waisted some time on social media. At about 4:15am my eyes started to get heavy and I went and laid down slept for a hour and a half, I woke up back pain about a 2-3 and I feel like I can function like a Normal Person. I guess my struggle, how do I manage the pain with out becoming dependent on pain killers.
The source of the pain needs to be addressed or it will be by the Opiates. Opiates should only be for short term (post surgery / trauma). Other than that - u can already see how dangerous they can be. This is where it starts. I am sorry that you have that level of pain. Would you like to share the source?
 

Foxx13

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I've never used either... But I've known people that have, and a lot of times while on it, they'd have the same addictive behaviors that they had on their preferred drugs.
:-(
they have the same addictive behaviors because they are addicts and they haven’t delt with the real issue. The real issue isnt the drugs or alcohol it’s the person. I agree with Botk1161, swapping drugs isn’t the answer. It’s just a new addiction in my opinion. The answer is the program, if and when he’s open to it. It works if he wants to work it.
 
PhantomReaper

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The source of the pain needs to be addressed or it will be by the Opiates. Opiates should only be for short term (post surgery / trauma). Other than that - u can already see how dangerous they can be. This is where it starts. I am sorry that you have that level of pain. Would you like to share the source?
Well said..
Usually, after awhile the addiction becomes a bigger problem than the Original cause..
It did for me..
For some of us,the cause may Never be fixable..and have to learn how to deal with it in a healthy manner..I hope that's not the case...
The sad thing is..until the person decides to address the real cause..there's nearly nothing anyone can do...
I have a relative on H...and family has pretty much given up on her..I just moved into the same town and am going to try to make her see me to talk..
Z...
 
Renew1

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they have the same addictive behaviors because they are addicts and they haven’t delt with the real issue. The real issue isnt the drugs or alcohol it’s the person. I agree with Botk1161, swapping drugs isn’t the answer. It’s just a new addiction in my opinion. The answer is the program, if and when he’s open to it. It works if he wants to work it.
Program, or no program ... If you're taking substances that can be addictive, when you've already had issues before, you're just asking for, and inviting trouble.

I'm very happy that you've found something that works for you, but it definitely isn't the answer for all.
I've known a lot of guys (and gals) over the years who struggled with addiction. Some found success in that program, some found it in other places .... And more than a couple are just gone now.

Find something (besides more drugs) that works for you, and stick with it.
:)
 
PhantomReaper

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Often getting and staying clean...requires support and accountability..Support from family, Friends or other recovering addicts..
It's never an easy road..
We watched a former member spiral down to an overdose..We all saw it..but it was too late..
Talking about it is the step 1...Sadly, many addicts, including myself, wouldn't talk about it to anyone..it happens to all types of people..No one is immune..
There's not many outcomes from addiction..Incarceration, getting help or Death...It's still a stigma in our society, unless you're Famous...then it's Glamous..
And Now, with fenytanal(spell wrong) the death rate has skyrocketing..
Just a sad thing..
Z...
 
Rocket3015

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The source of the pain needs to be addressed or it will be by the Opiates. Opiates should only be for short term (post surgery / trauma). Other than that - u can already see how dangerous they can be. This is where it starts. I am sorry that you have that level of pain. Would you like to share the source?
I am currently being treated for Leukemia, I have had 62 rounds of Chemo and I take about 12-15 other drugs a day, I have had lower back pain for years, but never to this Level. My Blood Platelets are 10-20 and currently my WBC Zero. I believe the chemo has just killed off all the "Good Stuff" that should help me battle the pain.
 
botk1161

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I am currently being treated for Leukemia, I have had 62 rounds of Chemo and I take about 12-15 other drugs a day, I have had lower back pain for years, but never to this Level. My Blood Platelets are 10-20 and currently my WBC Zero. I believe the chemo has just killed off all the "Good Stuff" that should help me battle the pain.
God speed. I knew this through following you, but I was not aware of how you currently were. Certainly not everyone gets addicted to opiates, but it’s not hard with the relief and the added clean high bonus they provide. If they are taken daily, the amount you take can quickly (within about two weeks) have less and less of an effect requiring more and more and more until one is sick from side effects, getting little relief and needing large doses just to function or face terrible withdrawl. This can be the state in under 6 months. Someone in your situation would be able to get more very easily. A couple of times a week when things are unbearable at the lowest dose you can get to work should be something you could maintain until hopefully you get can get long term relief. The more time in between doses, the more effective the dose will be. Your hard work ethic and knowledge of how dangerous this stuff is too someone in your situation I believe will guard you. If you find yourself obsessing about the relief or high they will provide, it’s a definite sign that they are getting too you and starting to notch up the list of what is most important in your life. I will pray for your relief.
 

Jstrong20

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Surprisingly, he never screwed up his work over it. He's a carpenter and he has had some real back breaking **** jobs and never missed a beat. He's in bad shape now because his old lady lacks his discipline, they're still clean, but real close to losing it all.
I know a guy that has been a heroin addicted for over 20 years and he shows up and works hard everyday. Like this guy your son sounds like the rare exception. I looked into ketamine clinics for ocd and itt is one thing that can supposedly knock it our for two weeks from each visit. Ketamine and psychedelics are showing great promise. For many things. I don't know much about addiction treatments but ketamine use is newer so not many on here will probably know much about it. I would research it further before giving up on it. If the treatment is the same as for ocd. They got your with a high dose(what people call the k hole) then your good for a week or two.
 
Rocket3015

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God speed. I knew this through following you, but I was not aware of how you currently were. Certainly not everyone gets addicted to opiates, but it’s not hard with the relief and the added clean high bonus they provide. If they are taken daily, the amount you take can quickly (within about two weeks) have less and less of an effect requiring more and more and more until one is sick from side effects, getting little relief and needing large doses just to function or face terrible withdrawl. This can be the state in under 6 months. Someone in your situation would be able to get more very easily. A couple of times a week when things are unbearable at the lowest dose you can get to work should be something you could maintain until hopefully you get can get long term relief. The more time in between doses, the more effective the dose will be. Your hard work ethic and knowledge of how dangerous this stuff is too someone in your situation I believe will guard you. If you find yourself obsessing about the relief or high they will provide, it’s a definite sign that they are getting too you and starting to notch up the list of what is most important in your life. I will pray for your relief.

Thank you for your kind words and the information.
 

G3nghisKhan

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Wanted to get some feedback from those chemistry types in here about ketamine as a treatment for addiction. My youngest son who is now 22 is currently weaning off of methadone treatment for an opiate addiction. His substance abuse issues started back when he was ~15. We sent him away to a rehab facility at 17 for 2 months and like most ppl, he’s had relapses several times since. However he’s done well on the methadone for over 2 years with I believe only a single relapse that was short lived. He really wants to get off of methadone as he feels he’s better equipped to cope with the triggers and cravings as he’s gotten older. He does use thc which he said helps with his anxiety and sleep. I spoke to a nurse at a ketamine clinic and she indicated they do have a protocol using ketamine for substance abuse that she said has been quite effective and long lasting for those she’s treated. It does require a maintenance dose every 3-6 months after the initial treatment. I’m just researching other therapies as a proactive measure in the case my son does fall back into using again, and this is one I wanted to check on. So if anyone has thoughts or experience with this, I’d appreciate any feedback.
Tbh given his history of addiction you’d be better off using psychedelics (LSD, DMT or magic mushrooms (psilocybin)) based treatment as opposed to ketamine as psychedelics have negligible abuse potential and aren’t harmful to the body. While a bit of ketamine every few months won’t do any real damage, if abused it’ll shrink your kidneys and may have other side effects that I can’t remember off the top of my head

Also, regarding weed, tell him to avoid the strains with tonnes of THC and barely any CBD as those strains are way more likely to induce psychosis, anxiety, paranoia, etc than ones with more balanced profiles
 
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hyperCat

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Whoa, lots to unpack in this thread now. Cancer, addiction, terminal illnesses etc. I can relate to most of these issues on some level. Sister died 2 yrs ago from colorectal cancer. My life has been a bit of a roller coaster ride for the past 5-6 years now, kinda starting with coming to terms with my son’s addiction. Aging parents, aunts, uncles and in-laws really starting to require more time and care. Stressful job. Young grand kids who are awesome but exhausting! Life can really come at you fast. I need to go back and read through some of these responses to digest everything, but to all those of you struggling with whatever in life, hang in there.
 

Stacks1

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I don't know much about ketamine therapy but I have seen studies on psilocybin helping with addiction and it looks quite promising.
 
Steuss

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On my phone, and have potato fingers, so this is going to be much shorter than it should be.

Therapeutic use of ketamine is still largely in its infancy. The current general psychiatric guidelines for its use is kind of "last resort." It's currently generally (amongst ethical practitioners) only used in cases of extreme suicidal ideation where other treatments have failed. Kind of a last ditch effort; and even then, it's kind of a temporary bandaid.

There are a few potential side effects -- most of which go away with cessation, and are fortunately somewhat relatively rare. However, one side effect can become permanent for those affected by it; and, those with potential of becoming addicted will be at a particularly high risk of developing permanent Cystitis (aka, Ketamine Bladder Syndrome).

Only people I know that are winning the battle of sobriety have found something else to obsess about, and take the place of "addiction." One is a hobby blacksmith. One is a perpetual sponsor in recovery programs, one is an addiction coach, one has about 70% of their body tattooed (I am a little worried for when there's nowhere left), one is hyper religious. There are a few more, but I imagine you get the picture.

Sometimes with addictive personalities, a new ("healthy") addiction is needed. Something to obsess about, and be a key identity marker.
 
Rocket3015

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Replacing a Bad Addition with a Healthy Passion is a great step in the right direction !
 
PolishHamm3r77

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I have dealt w withdrawal from opiates as well as from methadone. I used methadone to get high as 2 40mg wafers were a lot cheaper than 4 Oxy 80’s. I did this for 5 yrs. High wasn’t the same but I could go a day without methadone and not have visible symptoms of detox. I knew what I was feeling on the inside but less visible to the outside world.
That being said, anyone who has detoxed from both would rather “kick” 10 times from pills or heroin than once from methadone. The longer you are on methadone the worse it is to come off. The half life is right around 24 hrs. It gets into your bones. Your teeth will rot and fall out. The clinic sees you as a lifetime customer so they are not in the business of trying to lower your dose.
I went from 80mgs a day and cut it by 10 mgs a day for a week and dropped it 10 mg per week each following week. Once I got to 5mg every other day
I road that for 4 weeks in a quasi dope sick limbo. I completely pulled the plug and was physically sick for 4 days. The body has a great memory. I would get anxiety at the times I would normally take my methadone. This went on for roughly 3 months. Most of it being psychological.
So to summarize the longer he waits to kick the longer the roller coaster of bull shiz will go on. The stuff is POISON. Ketamine is not the answer
You have to get to the real reason of why he went to opiates in the first place. Otherwise it is a shitty ride people just keep getting on and off of.
Best of luck. God Speed
 
botk1161

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Any real addict that has gone through opiate hell like the guy above and myself will tell you that Ketamine or any other drug is not the way to deal with it. "You have to get to the real reason of why he went to opiates in the first place". The only solution that worked for me "after trying everything" was Alchoholics Anonomous. I did use suboxone, but for only 6 weeks and then faced pured hell for 3 months. And then it got better and better, but only because I got down to causes asap.
 
muscleman

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Taking ketamine is an option although psychedelics as mentiined have a broadrr spectrum of possible spuritual benefits in my opinion.
Even in drug conservative Northern Europe studies pn magic mushrooms possibility to help with depression and more looks promising.

Ibogaine is a powerful Aftican medicine derived from tree bark and according to a growing number of witnessess it has been that in some cases even a songle dose of this medicine has helped to stop addiction and even wothdrawal symptoms.
It is a very strong medicine so experienced support is important.

The citations below are from an internetarticla about Deborah Mash and her discoveries and treatmen of addiction with ibogaine:

link to article



”It was around that time that Deborah Mash, a neuroscientist researching addiction at the University of Miami first heard rumblings of an intriguing "magical cure." Lotsof even called her himself.

"I didn't believe it. How could one molecule have an effect on alcohol, nicotine, cocaine and opiates?" she told America Tonight. “[It] didn't make sense."

The thing we learned straight away was that the ibogaine detox was 98 percent effective for opiate withdrawals," Mash said of its short-term detoxification rate. "I couldn't believe it."

”The patients reported back no cravings for drugs, no desire to run out and get high and, perhaps most impressively, none of the usual painful withdrawals.”

For centuries, followers of the Bwiti religion in the West African nation of Gabon have used ibogaine in healing ceremonies and spiritual rituals. Taken in high enough doses, the plant extract can cause a psychedelic trip more intense than LSD or psilocybin mushrooms.

That's exactly what Howard Lotsof, a 19-year-old American heroin addict, was looking for when he decided to experiment with the hallucinogen in 1962. But he found something a little different. After a long and intense trip, he discovered that he had no cravings for heroin or any other drug. Even more incredibly, he had no withdrawal symptoms. So Lotsof gave ibogaine to seven friends also addicted to heroin. Five of them stopped using, saying their desire for the drug had been extinguished, at least temporarily, after just one use.

I myself developed a minor addiction for tianeptine. On low doses it was amazong as antidepressant for me but if you multiply that dose it will also hit opioid receptors and thats addictive snd luckily I have never been much addicted although a two weel treatment codein after pulling my tonsils already made me a bit addicted.
Tianeptine just has some minor shakes and anxiety for me and I never used crazy high doses like I have seen some other do.

Good luck though everybody fighting with any addiction. Its difficult for many but if we really want to we csn and in case of seriously addictive drugs like opiates I guess support would be very helpful

I actually got inspired quitting after reading Keiths Richards autobiography and when he writes about quitting heroin. He says it really sucks to be do addicted and helpless when all drugs are gone and used up and how he felt so helpless and low waiting for his next dose to be delivered, snd I thought the ssme.
As long as you choose to use something it is okay but when it comes to addiction and those times when people feel forced to use things just to make the withdrawal go away then we havectrulyvgiven awayva certain amount of will.

I have just dabbled and realize addiction csn be bad but at the same time we as human beings have amazing capabilities and giving up addiction is possible and all those of you who have successfully broken an addiction remember how great it feels snd hiw that empowers yourself!

💪🙏🌈❤🕺👍🔥🎈🍁
 
Wimsicle

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I was going to mention Ibogaine as well. I have seen it do wonders for friends after the military who have been addicted to opiate abuse.

A brutal treatment (theirs was done in Mexico), but it worked..
 

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