My Epi+11-oxo plan - any thoughts?

[BritCitFutsie]

Hi folks, new member.
I'm 40, had been largely inactive through most of my 30's, in my 20's I lifted more regularly including some PH/DS use such as Epistane, H-drol + 3-AD (I don't think they make 3-AD any more do they). I used to post on muscletalk forums but like 3-AD I don't think they exist anymore!
I have now been back lifting regularly (every other day) consistently for about 6 months.
Im 6'0 about 195lb and don't wish to get much bigger or smaller - just wish to gain some more muscle and lose some more chub.
I tried 11-oxo a few months back at 300mg/day and it seemed fine for me and think it did help modestly.

Now for superior results I am planning on 6 weeks (42 days) as follows:
- 12 days at just 450mg 11-oxo
- 30 days at 30mg Epistane & 450mg 11-oxo

I have cycle support and PCT products ready.

I am also taking Venlafaxine (but recently lowered from 150mg/day to 75/day) which is why I don't want to push the Epistane any higher than 30/mg day, nor any more than 1 bottle. As I believe epi and venlafaxine may both strain the liver and I don't want to push my luck too hard.

I welcome any thoughts you guys may have, cheers

 

[Smont]

The only problem is your cycle is 30days, You can lose a decent amount of fat in 30 days. But no matter how much gear you take whether it be your cycle above or 1000mg of test and tren, There's very limited muscle you can build in thirty days. So what happens is you fill out nice and you look good for a month or two, and then you deflect back down And the cosmetic effects are gone. And that's why most guys who run oral only in short cycles Tend to never really make any progress. They just look good on cycle and then back to normal and repeat the process over and over again. There's no real actual progress being made. Or there's such little being made that you lose it right away, espically if you pct and are not on testosterone.

It would make a lot more sense to run something like 4 andro with the 11-oxo for about 8-10 weeks and use the epistane the last 4 weeks. At least that gives you time to make real adaptations and progress a bit.

4andro 220-440mg weeks 1-8
11oxo 450-900mg weeks 1-8
Epistane 20-30mg weeks 4 or 5-8
Pct 9-12

Whether or not you do 4 weeks or the cycle above, hope your pct has a serm, nolva or clomid or enclo. A lot of people's recent blood work would lead me to believe enclo is the best solo option. Im on test so i dont pct anymore.

Nac or tudca if your worried about your liver. I use nac pretty much year round 600-1200 a day and 1800 on cycle. Tudca 250-500mg 3x a day is pretty standard

 

[Stacks1]

I agree with above. I'm actually going to do a 12 week run of 11-KT for a cut. Something to consider. Maybe extend the cycle to 10 or 12 weeks, add some 4-DHEA, and you can run the epistane for the last 4 weeks or maybe instead pulse it for the last 8 weeks. I haven't pulsed epistane, so I don't know how well that would work but it might give you more keepable gains from what some people say.

 

[Smont]

I agree with above. I'm actually going to do a 12 week run of 11-KT for a cut. Something to consider. Maybe extend the cycle to 10 or 12 weeks, add some 4-DHEA, and you can run the epistane for the last 4 weeks or maybe instead pulse it for the last 8 weeks. I haven't pulsed epistane, so I don't know how well that would work but it might give you more keepable gains from what some people say.

Just my personal opinion cus i lloooooovvvve epistane, it takes me about 10-14 days before i feel its full effects And I've tried taking it pre-workout only. And I don't ever really get the same effect. If I take it every day after about 2 weeks. Everything's kind of filled out and my strength goes up on everything, espically pushing movements. When i took it pre workout only 4x week my strength still went up but the round tight look never really shined through.

Id do daily for physique goals and pre workout If I was running it for a long time With strength goals as the main focus.

To be fair there's plenty of people who like it both ways. Just my prefrence for myself

 

[Smont]

I agree with above. I'm actually going to do a 12 week run of 11-KT for a cut. Something to consider. Maybe extend the cycle to 10 or 12 weeks, add some 4-DHEA, and you can run the epistane for the last 4 weeks or maybe instead pulse it for the last 8 weeks. I haven't pulsed epistane, so I don't know how well that would work but it might give you more keepable gains from what some people say.

Also, if you log your run tag me

 

[BritCitFutsie]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.. I would clarify it isn't actually 30 days it's 30 days with Epistane... It's 42 days ..6 weeks... in total. I have plenty of 11-oxo I could run 11-oxo for longer before the Epistane, or could try 600mg instead of 450mg through the 6 weeks. Thanks again I am looking into 4-andro and 4-DHEA as I am not familiar with either, or whether they are available in UK. Seems like 4-andro might be, not sure about 4-DHEA yet. Cheers

 

[Stacks1]

Just my personal opinion cus i lloooooovvvve epistane, it takes me about 10-14 days before i feel its full effects And I've tried taking it pre-workout only. And I don't ever really get the same effect. If I take it every day after about 2 weeks. Everything's kind of filled out and my strength goes up on everything, espically pushing movements. When i took it pre workout only 4x week my strength still went up but the round tight look never really shined through.

Id do daily for physique goals and pre workout If I was running it for a long time With strength goals as the main focus.

To be fair there's plenty of people who like it both ways. Just my prefrence for myself

Yeah I've personally never pulsed it myself, I just wanted to throw the idea out there as some people like using pulsing to extend the cycle. Some people say the gains are less but more keepable. I should try pulsing though. I would consider it with a really strong compound like sdrol or M1T.

 

[Stacks1]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.. I would clarify it isn't actually 30 days it's 30 days with Epistane... It's 42 days ..6 weeks... in total. I have plenty of 11-oxo I could run 11-oxo for longer before the Epistane, or could try 600mg instead of 450mg through the 6 weeks. Thanks again I am looking into 4-andro and 4-DHEA as I am not familiar with either, or whether they are available in UK. Seems like 4-andro might be, not sure about 4-DHEA yet. Cheers

Well predator nutrition supposedly sells the original 4AD in the UK. I haven't tried theirs and cannot say whether or not it is legit. However, if it really is the original 4AD, then it would definitely work well with this cycle.

 

[composner]

How do people use 4 Andro these days other than as a test base? Been sitting on some old Alpha Gainz TD that I haven't decided what to do with because I dont want to mess with anything more suppressive than 11KT or epiandro anymore. How much does it help on a cut?

 

[delsolrob]

Hi folks, new member.
I'm 40, had been largely inactive through most of my 30's, in my 20's I lifted more regularly including some PH/DS use such as Epistane, H-drol + 3-AD (I don't think they make 3-AD any more do they). I used to post on muscletalk forums but like 3-AD I don't think they exist anymore!
I have now been back lifting regularly (every other day) consistently for about 6 months.
Im 6'0 about 195lb and don't wish to get much bigger or smaller - just wish to gain some more muscle and lose some more chub.
I tried 11-oxo a few months back at 300mg/day and it seemed fine for me and think it did help modestly.

Now for superior results I am planning on 6 weeks (42 days) as follows:
- 12 days at just 450mg 11-oxo
- 30 days at 30mg Epistane & 450mg 11-oxo

I have cycle support and PCT products ready.

I am also taking Venlafaxine (but recently lowered from 150mg/day to 75/day) which is why I don't want to push the Epistane any higher than 30/mg day, nor any more than 1 bottle. As I believe epi and venlafaxine may both strain the liver and I don't want to push my luck too hard.

I welcome any thoughts you guys may have, cheers

Iconic Formulations has a limited supply of 3-AD transdermal gel available - as far as I'm aware this was the last of the 3-AD material offered from the patent holder...don't think they'll be offering it any more. It's a beta product called Ultra Three

I would recommend 11-keto over 11-oxo - 11-keto is going to be much more effective for leaning/recomp. Iron Legion has XI-KT and Iconic Formulations has Ultra Eleven

 

[Stacks1]

Iconic Formulations has a limited supply of 3-AD transdermal gel available - as far as I'm aware this was the last of the 3-AD material offered from the patent holder...don't think they'll be offering it any more. It's a beta product called Ultra Three

I would recommend 11-keto over 11-oxo - 11-keto is going to be much more effective for leaning/recomp. Iron Legion has XI-KT and Iconic Formulations has Ultra Eleven

I've never tried 3-AD before because I honestly don't know what it is. Is it a DHT derivative? Test derivative? Does it convert to test as a replacement for 4-DHEA or is it something else?

I would like to try it but I just don't have any good information on it, so I don't really know how to use it.

 

[BritCitFutsie]

UPDATE

Hi again folks... Just thought I would update in case it benefits anyone who searches and finds this thread.
I ran the cycle pretty much as I planned it out above,
6 weeks as
- First 12 days at just 450mg 11-oxo
- then 30 days at 30mg Epistane & 450mg 11-oxo

And I would say it went fairly well...
I was crap at documenting initial stats but during cycle I began using a boditrax machine so I know over the second half of the cycle I gained about 1.5kg muscle and fat stayed about the same
Over the whole cycle my weight increased about 3kg so believe I may have gained up to 3kg muscle over the 6 weeks but this isnt precise.

Minimal/no side effects during cycle or so far in PCT (which is probably done now after about a month, it has been Activate Xtreme + formestane max) EXCEPT for body temperature running high (or feels like it is, temp is actually ok but I feel warm) and sweating particularly during the night.

I will check bloods in a couple more weeks.