Thermolife at it again!

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ironkill

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The patent holder ThermoLife of the widely used and effective NO3-T nitrate ingredients, has filed a lawsuit against Compound Solutions, the company distributing Dynamine and TeaCrine. The complaint is in regards to Compound Solutions’ nitric oxide ingredient Vaso6 that can be found in many supplements.

ThermoLife alleges that Vaso6 is nothing but green tea extract, it is not patented, and that its science is fake. ThermoLife mentions in its complaint that it tested a sample of Vaso6 at two separate laboratories and found it to be nothing more than regular green tea that typically sells for around $30 per kilogram.

“ThermoLife’s Complaint seeks an injunction, barring further false advertising by Compound Solutions and actual damages. As a result of Compound Solutions willfully false advertising, ThermoLife also seeks an order from the court disgorging its profits on VASO6 and an award of treble damages.”
 
BigGame84

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But are they wrong? I've bought several bottles of Vaso6, even gone up to 900mg, not sure I've noticed much of anything. Just saying..
 
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That's a bold accusation that it's snake oil. I'm sure they've got pretty accurate data on the two tests to slam Compound Solutions publicly.
 
00A

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SNS Vaso6? Need to know more also now s7 out maybe same ****
 
sns8778

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But are they wrong? I've bought several bottles of Vaso6, even gone up to 900mg, not sure I've noticed much of anything. Just saying..
Before you (not you personally, meaning anyone reading now or future haha) think I'm biased answering from my perspective, please keep in mind that we offer plenty of other ingredients that people view as competitors to VASO6 such as Citrulline Malate, Agmatine XT, X-Gels, etc.

As far as telling a difference, always keep in mind that a single ingredient product is not going to and is not meant to work as well as a product that for example contains Citrulline + Agmatine + VASO6, etc. I suspect that you yourself do keep that in mind but many people don't. The purpose of offering it as a single ingredient is to let people try it and see if it works for them, allow them to add it to their pre-workout of choice, use it for daily use benefits, etc.

Personally, I have found that 300 to 600 mg. of VASO6 per day works great or me. That doesn't mean that it will for everyone but based on feedback that you see here on AM and a lot of other places, a lot of people love it.

I'm a big believer in that when it comes to supplements, the rule that is most often forgotten is that different things affect people differently.

For example, Nitrosigine does nothing for me - nothing, zero, nada, can't tell I'm taking it. But that doesn't mean I don't think its a great ingredient for some people. I've honestly never fully read through their science but I don't have to to. I know enough people that say it works well for them that I know it has to work great for many people. For whatever reason, I'm not one of those people. Would it work as great for them if they took it as a single ingredient? Most likely it would still work great for some and not as great for others.

I hope that makes sense. I'm trying to show complete respect for your experience but presenting a different side to it as well.

SNS Vaso6? Need to know more also now s7 out maybe same ****
I'm going to post a long reply after this but wanted to acknowledge you and your mention. If my post doesn't cover any questions that you have, please pm me and I'll be glad to help you in any way that I can.

VASO6 as an ingredient has received great feedback on AM and other places for a very long time and I've seen some of the smartest minds that post here discussing the science and and really liking the ingredient. I don't mean the Compound Solutions marketing points but the science itself; and its always been very popular on AM ever since it was first released. That's what finally led to us offering one - we received so many requests and we always try to offer you guys what you want to see from us (as evidenced by my sig asking people to let us know what they want from us haha).

S7 - the data on S7 looks good but it has nothing to do with VASO6. I think that S7 has a lot of great potential and I also think that it could stack very well with VASO6, Agmatine, or other ingredients.
 
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jrock645

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I remember when thermolife used to make good but overpriced supps. Now they make nothing and just file lawsuits.
 
sns8778

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To the best of my knowledge, Olympus Labs was the first company to use VASO6 when they included it in Re1gn. The feedback on pumps from Re1gn was very good, not just from casual people but also from very skeptical people including some that had a reputation for not being fans of Olympus Labs. When Olympus Labs originally launched Re1gn with VASO6, I’m not sure if Compound Solutions was distributing VASO6 yet or not. If they were, I wasn’t familiar with it.

Almost immediately after Re1gn was released, people on the forums started talking about, debating, and discussing VASO6. I remember seeing some very well-respected and well-liked people on here discussing VASO6 and being very impressed with it in terms of the science and personal use results. Two of these that really stand out to me are Danes and Synapsin because they both have very high knowledge levels of science and because I’ve seen both of them be hesitant to recommend anything that didn’t work for them personally.

Olympus Labs has had such good feedback on VASO6 that it has led to them using VASO6 in quite a few of their products. Olympus are smart guys, they wouldn’t be increasing their product cost and using it in so many different formulas if the feedback on it weren’t good and the demand for the ingredient wasn’t there.

A note on branded ingredients in general:

Companies that license branded ingredients generally do so because they want their products to be more effective. There is a marketing advantage in the sense that people may buy their product based off that ingredient but there is also a disadvantage in that their product(s) will cost more due to the increased price from using the branded ingredient. Therefore, the marketing advantage to using branded ingredients would most likely only work if the ingredient itself works.

Initial demand for branded ingredients is usually created by hype and marketing but sustained demand for branded ingredients is normally only accomplished through the ingredients actually working.

In this case, Olympus Labs saw enough sustained demand to go from using VASO6 in one formula to 4+ formulas and companies such as Primeval Labs, MusclePharm, Sparta Nutrition, Performix, Performax, Chaos & Pain, and many more had enough demand for VASO6 to use it in formulas.

---------

Almost immediately after Re1gn becoming so popular, we started getting asked to come out with a single ingredient VASO6. At the time, I cannot remember if Compound Solutions was offering it or not, but if they were, I don’t remember knowing that they were. I only became familiar with Compound Solutions offering it around the time that MusclePharm released a product with it in there.

It took us a long time to release VASO6 caps because we wanted to see if it was really that good and if the demand for it would be steady or if people were just wanting to buy it because of the hype that Re1gn was getting. As more products came out with it in there and we kept getting asked, that’s when we went ahead and moved forward on it.

We didn’t come out with VASO6 to try to ‘sell’ it or ‘promote’ it and definitely not to ‘over-hype’ it. The hype was already there, the requests were there, and we did what we do – we listened to our customers and released a VASO6 capsule product at a very cost effective price. If you think about it, when we take an ingredient like that and offer it as a single ingredient product, we are taking a huge chance because it should become evident real quick if the ingredient can live up to the hype because it gives people the ability to use it as a single ingredient product and see how much they really like it.

You can see evidence of how much people were asking us to do a single ingredient VASO6 by how excited people were when we launched it. And you can see how much people liked the ingredient itself solo by the great feedback that it received both on here and elsewhere. To say that that feedback would be a placebo is to say that some of the most knowledgeable, well-respected, and skeptical people on here aren’t trust worthy to give their feedback on something. The results and reviews have been overwhelmingly positive.

Note 1: I made a point above about how offering an ingredient like this as a single ingredient is a huge chance for us, but it’s also a huge chance for a branded ingredient supplier because they generally realize that if their ingredient doesn’t really show results, people are getting ready to find out. And do not ask me who because I don’t speak negatively of anyone, but we have been told no in the past by some companies in that they didn’t want their ingredients to be sold as single ingredients. My impression of this is that if Compound Solutions was not confident that VASO6 would show great results in people, they would have said no and not allowed us to do one because they would have had a lot to lose and hardly anything to gain because it would have tarnished the reputation of their ingredient; and the volume that we do on any single ingredient is nothing compared to what a company like MusclePharm or Primeval can do with it.

Note 2: VASO6 is not a miracle ingredient, nothing is. Just like most everything else, there are going to be some people that don’t respond as well to it as others and there are going to be some people that have to take a higher dosage than others. There are also people that are going to read how much people are hyping something and have an unrealistic expectation that no ingredient can possibly live up to.

----------------

I think that the companies that are offering VASO6 in their products feel that VASO6 offers a great benefit and that they most likely get great feedback on their products or they wouldn’t pay the increased costs to use it in their products (because it increases the raw material cost substantially and results in less margin on their end).

If Compound Solutions misrepresented any studies, they misrepresented them to companies as well as consumers.

If Compound Solutions over-exaggerated the science, that’s sad because I don’t think they needed to because VASO6 is so popular and the feedback on it is so good.
 
thebigt

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personally I am a fan of vaso6!!! and SNS/OLYMPUS LABS.
 
The Express 42

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There’s no way, I get way too much vascularity from SNS Vaso 6 that I don’t even come close to without it. Calling bogus on that claim.
 
Olympus Labs

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It's been one day i'd wait for compound solutions to respond and take care of it. As SNS noted there are tons of ingredients that look good on paper but don't deliver and there are tons of ingredients lacking data that provide a great amount of anecdotal benefits . Just look at a major competitor here who sells a majority of ingredients based off rat and animal studies which provide anecdotal results in AM users. I'd just wait for them to respond really.
 
djbombsquad

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But are they wrong? I've bought several bottles of Vaso6, even gone up to 900mg, not sure I've noticed much of anything. Just saying..
Exactly. Just like compound solutions claim nano cbd is better than other brands ! I call bs
 
sns8778

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Exactly. Just like compound solutions claim nano cbd is better than other brands ! I call bs
In the case of nextCBD, Compound Solutions is just the distributor of the raw materials for Ananda Scientific who appears to be a rather large company with some very convincing data. I only glanced at it but here's a link to Ananda. https://www.anandascientific.com/

The only reason that I looked into this is that I had spoken with a retailer who carried a brand of nextCBD and said that oddly enough, a lot of their customers swore it was better than regular CBD. That got my curiosity up and I told a family member about it who had tried regular CBD and didn't get any benefits from it. They ordered a bottle of nextCBD and have used it ever since and say that it helps them a lot (they use it for sciatica).

I've never tried CBD myself so I couldn't compare brands or types based off personal experience. If I had to make a guess, I would say that regular CBD works great for most people but in some people that don't see results off regular CBD, the nextCBD may be worth a try.
 
TommyTuffGuy

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I'll be honest, I have like 3-4 preworkouts on rotation, I have White Flash that has Vaso6 and it's the ONLY one I get painful pumps from.
 
rob112

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So he is saying that none of these companies test their raws? Or that they are intentionally lying?
 
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Following the lawsuit filed earlier this week by the NO3-T nitrate patent holder ThermoLife, against Compound Solutions and Vaso6. A response has been issued by Compound Solutions confirming that the reputable ingredient company actually looks forward to defending its credibility.

“All of us at Compound Solutions are committed to ensuring the highest-quality ingredients available to support our partners delivering premier sports nutrition, functional food and nutraceutical products. While we are reviewing the claims from ThermoLife, we want our partners to know that we stand firmly behind the quality of our products and that we look forward to vigorously defending the credibility and the reputation of our company which is underscored by the incredible relationships and trust we have earned from our global partners and customers.”
 
VaughnTrue

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Based on what I read it sounded more like the latter.
a company wouldn't really be testing for those active ingredients when doing their QA (at least they don't HAVE to). A company would receive a sample provided by CS, and use that as a basis for testing future runs. You can't take an herbal extract and say "yup, this is 99.9% pure!". Pure for what? CS doesn't specifically list the levels of active components (that I am aware of anyway), so what are you going to test for in specific?

You take the sample and have it analyzed by a lab. You then send in the next set of raw materials you receive to the lab, and the test it against the original...if it matches you're done your required QA testing.
 
00A

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I'll be honest, I have like 3-4 preworkouts on rotation, I have White Flash that has Vaso6 and it's the ONLY one I get painful pumps from.
Which ones - please list as i experiance similar
 
djbombsquad

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In the case of nextCBD, Compound Solutions is just the distributor of the raw materials for Ananda Scientific who appears to be a rather large company with some very convincing data. I only glanced at it but here's a link to Ananda. https://www.anandascientific.com/

The only reason that I looked into this is that I had spoken with a retailer who carried a brand of nextCBD and said that oddly enough, a lot of their customers swore it was better than regular CBD. That got my curiosity up and I told a family member about it who had tried regular CBD and didn't get any benefits from it. They ordered a bottle of nextCBD and have used it ever since and say that it helps them a lot (they use it for sciatica).

I've never tried CBD myself so I couldn't compare brands or types based off personal experience. If I had to make a guess, I would say that regular CBD works great for most people but in some people that don't see results off regular CBD, the nextCBD may be worth a try.
Cheaper to use cbd with astragin.
 
TommyTuffGuy

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Which ones - please list as i experiance similar
I have:
Total War
Dymatize Pre
ENGN SHRED Pre
Tons of samples of BOTH Steel Supplements Pre's (Charged AF and AMPED AF)
White Flash

White Flash is the only one I get good pumps from.
 
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Thermolife does not mess around. The patent trolling aspect aside, they are highly researched and methodical. At this point I would be unwilling to pay for Vaso6.
 
djbombsquad

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Thermolife does not mess around. The patent trolling aspect aside, they are highly researched and methodical. At this point I would be unwilling to pay for Vaso6.
Yep.
 
thebigt

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Thermolife does not mess around. The patent trolling aspect aside, they are highly researched and methodical. At this point I would be unwilling to pay for Vaso6.
I could not find any thermolife products, where are you buying from?
 
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Vasolate years ago was ahead of it's time.
 
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Thermolife does not mess around. The patent trolling aspect aside, they are highly researched and methodical. At this point I would be unwilling to pay for Vaso6.
I could respect that point of view when thermolife actually made stuff. They make nothing anymore, except for lawsuits. If they made a competing product, and alleged that this was a fake version of theirs, I would be on their side. They literally make nothing anymore.
 
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I could respect that point of view when thermolife actually made stuff. They make nothing anymore, except for lawsuits. If they made a competing product, and alleged that this was a fake version of theirs, I would be on their side. They literally make nothing anymore.
They are claiming there is no such thing as Vaso6 entirely from how I saw the lawsuit.
 
rob112

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If what they find is truthful they are helping us; I just don’t think they are actually doing it to help us.

I think it’s fair to think of them like a person who can be a dick, but at the same time isn’t really wrong either.

Just my take and I am willing to be shown otherwise.
 
DEVANS89

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I think it’s down to Ron losing out on business


Everyone is adding vaso6 to formulas and other then a few companies you rarely see nitrates


Maybe if he wasn’t so strict on his patent use?
 
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I know nothing about Thermolife, but I can say they hired a good law firm.
 
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I will be surprised or disappointed if they find nothing to vaso6 as I see and feel a difference. From pump to vascularity, hope I know my body better than that if it's placebo.
 
thebigt

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I will be surprised or disappointed if they find nothing to vaso6 as I see and feel a difference. From pump to vascularity, hope I know my body better than that if it's placebo.
same
 
TommyTuffGuy

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I miss the old Supplement Company BEEFS from 2005 - 2009 or whatever it was. Driven Sports, formally Designer Supplements vs Thermo, Jungle Warfare sketchiness. Anabolic Xtreme, man, all that. So fun.
 
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Ron had a genuine hatred towards rich gaspari. Kept calling him out on spiked and bogus products.
 
ax1

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Ron had a genuine hatred towards rich gaspari. Kept calling him out on spiked and bogus products.
Huh, wonder if he ever lab tested his stuff too and based it off of that??????
 
djbombsquad

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That’s why retail company’s should do a 3rd party testing and then we will know like companies such as sponsored company’s on here before selling it then it would save us the Hassle of having crap
 
ax1

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I will be surprised or disappointed if they find nothing to vaso6 as I see and feel a difference. From pump to vascularity, hope I know my body better than that if it's placebo.
A placebo can still take in effect even if your aware your taking a placebo.
 
Skigazzi

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I miss the old Supplement Company BEEFS from 2005 - 2009 or whatever it was. Driven Sports, formally Designer Supplements vs Thermo, Jungle Warfare sketchiness. Anabolic Xtreme, man, all that. So fun.
2000s were GOLD , companies wanting to sue everyone who posted on bb.com, Bruce Kneller v PA, Gasparis magic pump pill (forget its name), emax supposedly being extracted from elephant piss... it was awesome on the forums. Mind and Muscle forums with all the brains (I wonder were they all are now, Avant Labs S1+ omg)

Now I'm a middle aged lurker (who lifts)
 
thebigt

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A placebo can still take in effect even if your aware your taking a placebo.
I got a perfect example of a great placebo effect....


you go to a strip club and see a chick that really turns you on and you get a hard on....then you go home-alone, lol.
 
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slickwillie

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I got a perfect example of a great placebo effect....


you go to a strip club and see a chick that really turns you on and you get a hard on....then you go home-alone, lol.
Reminds me of my visit to a Dallas strip club back in the 80s to see Christy Canyon.
 
thebigt

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Reminds me of my visit to a Dallas strip club back in the 80s to see Christy Canyon.
back in the 80's Christy was my favorite placebo....:09:
 
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Hehehe, yeah, Plasmajet. That was some great marketing. The supp game was so fun back then.
 
sns8778

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2000s were GOLD , companies wanting to sue everyone who posted on bb.com, Bruce Kneller v PA, Gasparis magic pump pill (forget its name), emax supposedly being extracted from elephant piss... it was awesome on the forums. Mind and Muscle forums with all the brains (I wonder were they all are now, Avant Labs S1+ omg)

Now I'm a middle aged lurker (who lifts)
Gonna give me flashbacks of the good old days mentioning Avant Labs haha.

I hope you're doing well.
 
NoAddedHmones

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They are claiming there is no such thing as Vaso6 entirely from how I saw the lawsuit.
The claim they are making is the extract to which CS is selling - isn’t providing the actives to which the patent claims ie. most bioactive oligomers.

Not going to comment on where I think it will end up going, but I was the first to present the data on patent here and I sure as hell could tell a difference compared to regular green tea extract.
 
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The claim they are making is the extract to which CS is selling - isn’t providing the actives to which the patent claims ie. most bioactive oligomers.

Not going to comment on where I think it will end up going, but I was the first to present the data on patent here and I sure as hell could tell a difference compared to regular green tea extract.
What if they win the lawsuit. What would that prove? A temporary hiccup on the suppliers end?
 

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