The Official PCT of 2009

[Eric Potratz]

Eric,
Since this is a PCT thread I'm interested in your take on a few other type of PCT questions.. I know you have seen alot and have alot of experiances to draw on. I'd sure value your opinion..

I see so many different opinions on training and volume in PCT. From a deloading with a one week break, and claims Test levels rise during that break. You have the camp who advocates the lighter weights and work for a quick pump, they are against heavy workouts as they feel they drop your natty Test when your trying to start it back up. Then you have the guys who say drive hard and heavy to keep your gains. Eric, based on your experiance what do you advocate for PCT training for your run of the mill 6 week PH/PS cycle?

Then I see all kinds of conflicting opinions on sex draining your Test levels. Including a study I saw that after a week without sex mens Test levels increased to 147% of their average, I think that was a study done in China.
Eric do you have any opinion on sexual activity during PCT, should we abstain for quickest recovery while our Test levels are rebounding?

Cardio.. I see avocates of no cardio, to 3 to 4 days a week. Eric?

Eric, have you considered laying out a general baseline PCT training, diet, cardio, and any other tricks or tips you have up your sleeve in a write up?
It seems like a no brainer to market to me. PP's products already are tip top, now if there was a resource to follow.... hmmm... buy your PH/PS, buy your TRS, and buy a published pamplet.. or if you buy a PH/PS, and TRS stack, you get the pamplet... think about how it would help guys with less experiance get the most results they could out of your products..

I always advise heavy weights, with lower volume for PCT. For example, if you did 5 sets of a given exercise during a cycle, you would do 3 sets during PCT with the same amount of weight. Doing this will help keep the neuromuscular system stressed and fast twitch cells recruited.

This will help you keep as much muscle and strength as you realistically can, while avoiding overtraining.

Abstain from sex for PCT? You go right ahead my friend…

Traditional treadmill cardio is a waste of time for bodybuilders IMO. I believe you can get ripped with a ketogenic diet and weight training in less time. This is a vastly huge topic that probably deserves its own thread though.

Not a bad idea on the tips & tricks for PCT. I could put something together, but it wouldn’t be anything specific to PCT per se’… I mean anything that is good for T levels is always going to be good for T levels.

-Eric

 

[chainsaw]

Eric,
Since this is a PCT thread I'm interested in your take on a few other type of PCT questions.. I know you have seen alot and have alot of experiances to draw on. I'd sure value your opinion..

I see so many different opinions on training and volume in PCT. From a deloading with a one week break, and claims Test levels rise during that break. You have the camp who advocates the lighter weights and work for a quick pump, they are against heavy workouts as they feel they drop your natty Test when your trying to start it back up. Then you have the guys who say drive hard and heavy to keep your gains. Eric, based on your experiance what do you advocate for PCT training for your run of the mill 6 week PH/PS cycle?

Then I see all kinds of conflicting opinions on sex draining your Test levels. Including a study I saw that after a week without sex mens Test levels increased to 147% of their average, I think that was a study done in China.
Eric do you have any opinion on sexual activity during PCT, should we abstain for quickest recovery while our Test levels are rebounding?

Cardio.. I see avocates of no cardio, to 3 to 4 days a week. Eric?

Eric, have you considered laying out a general baseline PCT training, diet, cardio, and any other tricks or tips you have up your sleeve in a write up?
It seems like a no brainer to market to me. PP's products already are tip top, now if there was a resource to follow.... hmmm... buy your PH/PS, buy your TRS, and buy a published pamplet.. or if you buy a PH/PS, and TRS stack, you get the pamplet... think about how it would help guys with less experiance get the most results they could out of your products..

I will bump this, a very good question.

 

[Bigchourico]

I always advise heavy weights, with lower volume for PCT. For example, if you did 5 sets of a given exercise during a cycle, you would do 3 sets during PCT with the same amount of weight. Doing this will help keep the neuromuscular system stressed and fast twitch cells recruited.

This will help you keep as much muscle and strength as you realistically can, while avoiding overtraining.



-Eric

Mooch isn't gonna like this response............

 

[dg806]

Best HCG advice I've seen in a long time. I agree 100%.

 

[TripDog]

Looks great Eric, mine just shipped so the log will be up soon.

 

[pistonpump]

Looks great Eric, mine just shipped so the log will be up soon.

what shipped, the TRS? log on what? fill me in here trip.


guys this is a thread on PCT so lets try to stay on topic please, so it doesnt turn into a huge jumbled mess of various subjects, this includes topics that should probably be talked more in a separate thread and also questions on ONcycle supplementation.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I like the write up Eric. Real nice.

I am going to have to try the TRS in the future, for sure.

I also really like your less is more on SERM dosing protocol. IMO, Invaluable advice.

One question.

Toremifene is a relatively new SERM. How you can place it on top of clomid and nolva?

I keep clo and tor on hand, btw.

 

[rabican]

Hey Eric, good writeup i enjoyed the read.

After reading your article / post i have a few quick questions:


1) In your post you say to start hCG after week 6, but in your article 'HCG - Unraveled' you state "It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use." and "For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system."

...so should it be started at week 2 or week 6?

----

2) Does this info apply to orals? (which are typically run under 6 weeks) If so your post would say don't use hCG but your article "HCG - Unraveled" would cause me to think i should run hCG for a week during cycle.

----

3)...on a side note, in your article 'Transdermal Steroids – Expanded' does the chapter on application site also apply to sustain alpha? I will be running a bottle after my hdrol cycle (starting may 1st).
Previously i read the following was the best application procedure but i would like clarification if shoulders is also a good spot to use vs thighs?


1. Shower then completely dry off
2. Spray once to each side of Chest (2)
3. Spray twice to each upper thigh including behind knee (4)
4. Wipe the excess onto the balls, top of feet, and front of the neck.
5. Rub into skin well.
6. Stand in front of fan to dry off.





...any info is appreciated to clear up my misunderstanding of your articles/post.
Thanks.

 

[mqsymth]

Maybe something mild like stinging nettle is fine. I have mixed feelings about tribulus supplements. I really havent researched them enough to say for certain if they would have a positive or negative effect…. Although they are probably fine.

I would just be careful with forskolin. It upregulates aromatase and E2 levels pretty quick in most guys. (via cAMP)

-Eric

Thanks for a great discussion on E2 control.

What does "It upregulates aromatase and E2 levels" mean?

 

[ehoeft]

If taking Tren Xtreme would this be enough for PCT or would i need something else? Can you take AI's post cycle support during this PCT too?

 

[rabican]

If taking Tren Xtreme would this be enough for PCT or would i need something else? Can you take AI's post cycle support during this PCT too?

wow...why are you posting this question in this thread?

 

[bslick69b]

If taking Tren Xtreme would this be enough for PCT or would i need something else? Can you take AI's post cycle support during this PCT too?

how long were your tren cycle?
slick.

 

[DLM5]

wow...why are you posting this question in this thread?

Bcuz he's researching for his cycle and PCT.. he hasn't started yet as far as I know.. I linked him this thread bcuz I thought Eric could answer his questions.. he's being smart asking for diff opinions and not just running with mine, even though I just ran Tren Xtreme and I'm in day 3 of PCT with Tore and PP"s TRS..

 

[DLM5]

If taking Tren Xtreme would this be enough for PCT or would i need something else? Can you take AI's post cycle support during this PCT too?

Hey Bro..
I answered this for you on the other thread.. I told you the TRS will work, with or without a SERM ran along side of it for this PCT.. I'm using a SERM, Torem along with the TRS..
The reason you don't want to run the TRS and A.I. PCS at the same time is.. they both have Resveratrol in them. You don't need that much resveratrol at one time...
IMO the TRS is the better bcuz it's a total PCT route. It's a 3 part stack, you get mild estro control, testies are stimmed more to LH/FSH, and you get the cort blocker with the EndoAMP, what more do I need? I will run the bottle of A.I. PCS I have after the TRS is done to string out the PCT longer, if i choose..
I commend you for researching and I'm betting Eric will answer any questions you got bro, good luck..

 

[Eric Potratz]

I like the write up Eric. Real nice.

I am going to have to try the TRS in the future, for sure.

I also really like your less is more on SERM dosing protocol. IMO, Invaluable advice.

One question.

Toremifene is a relatively new SERM. How you can place it on top of clomid and nolva?

I keep clo and tor on hand, btw.

Toremifene is a closely related analog to Nolva and studies demonstrate that it has very similar estrogen antagonism, so it should be just as efficient for PCT purposes. One benefit is that its slightly less toxic on the liver. (Which is why it requires a higher dose)

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

Hey Eric, good writeup i enjoyed the read.

After reading your article / post i have a few quick questions:


1) In your post you say to start hCG after week 6, but in your article 'HCG - Unraveled' you state "It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use." and "For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system."

...so should it be started at week 2 or week 6?

----

2) Does this info apply to orals? (which are typically run under 6 weeks) If so your post would say don't use hCG but your article "HCG - Unraveled" would cause me to think i should run hCG for a week during cycle.

----

3)...on a side note, in your article 'Transdermal Steroids – Expanded' does the chapter on application site also apply to sustain alpha? I will be running a bottle after my hdrol cycle (starting may 1st).
Previously i read the following was the best application procedure but i would like clarification if shoulders is also a good spot to use vs thighs?


1. Shower then completely dry off
2. Spray once to each side of Chest (2)
3. Spray twice to each upper thigh including behind knee (4)
4. Wipe the excess onto the balls, top of feet, and front of the neck.
5. Rub into skin well.
6. Stand in front of fan to dry off.





...any info is appreciated to clear up my misunderstanding of your articles/post.
Thanks.

First off, Id like to say that I have made a couple small changes to my recommendations since I wrote that hCG article a couple years ago. Plus, I didn’t clearly layout the on-cycle protocol in the original article.

Basically, if you plan on cycling longer than 6 weeks, then start the hCG on week 3 and run it as the PCT guide shows. Although you will get some testicular degeneration on a 4-6 week cycle, it is still repairable with a “light” PCT, such as the TRS alone, and does not require hCG.

If the cycle starts going out longer than 6 weeks it becomes considerably harder to recover and regain full testicular function, thus requiring steady E4D shots throughout the cycle to keep sensitivity & functionality (or large doses of hCG to reinstate testicular function if the on-cycle approach is not used).

Also, the "length of the cycle" depends on the half-life of the drug being used. Remember, if you are using a long acting injectable (like Deca) and shooting for 6 weeks, this really counts as a 11 week cycle, since the nandrolone will be lingering in your system long after your last injection. So for this cycle, I would recommend the on-cycle hCG protocol.

The site of application for Sustain is not as important as the other products with hormones, since it doesn’t require conversion. Application to torso and arms are find, and the scrotum is also an excellent place since the skin is extremely thin and vascular in this area.

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

Thanks for a great discussion on E2 control.

What does "It upregulates aromatase and E2 levels" mean?

Means it causes your estrogen to increase.

-Eric

 

[Messenger]

Eric can you elaborate on this a bit please? I was under the impression forskolin can have positive effects on hormone regulation as well as metabolism, and I have seen it included in PCT products lately. Could it be beneficial used along with Sustain and a low dose AI?

I am about 10 days away from starting PCT (Sustain, Toco-8, EndoAmp). I am including bulk 1-carboxy, Super Saponins and some Icarian 50(all USP bulks).

Thanks Eric. I will stick to the TRS and use the rest later. However i will also be incorporating bulk Agmatine. I think this might have a nice synergy with the increase in LH production form the Sustain.

 

[Eric Potratz]

If taking Tren Xtreme would this be enough for PCT or would i need something else? Can you take AI's post cycle support during this PCT too?

Yes, it would be enough for Tren Xtreme if the cycle is 6 weeks or less. (It shouldn’t be any longer than this anyway).

If I remember the ingredients correctly, Post Cycle support is fine to take for PCT with the TRS, long as it doesn’t contain any steroidial AI’s.

-Eric

 

[small_guy]

So sustain should only be used 5 days on and 2 days off? Any issues using it staight besides the money savings???

I had good results when using it 7 days on, so just curious.

 

[small_guy]

N.B.

For those that are going to use the 10 mg nolva dose you should be aware that 15.2 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate equal 10mg of Tamoxifen (Nolvadex). So if you are using research grade products then it may be underdosed by 50%.

 

[Eric Potratz]

So sustain should only be used 5 days on and 2 days off? Any issues using it staight besides the money savings???

I had good results when using it 7 days on, so just curious.

Usually results start to diminish after several weeks if you continue to use it every day, so we recommend the 5 on, 2 off period now…. Or 3 on, 3 off for the on-cycle protocol)

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

N.B.

For those that are going to use the 10 mg nolva dose you should be aware that 15.2 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate equal 10mg of Tamoxifen (Nolvadex). So if you are using research grade products then it may be underdosed by 50%.

Yes, good point.

-Eric

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Good read.. So for Prop. esters you recommend waiting 2 weeks after your last inject, to start PCT?

 

[TripDog]

what shipped, the TRS? log on what? fill me in here trip.


guys this is a thread on PCT so lets try to stay on topic please, so it doesnt turn into a huge jumbled mess of various subjects, this includes topics that should probably be talked more in a separate thread and also questions on ONcycle supplementation.

Im gonna run a Superdrol cycle, with Dermacrine along with it to prevent and aid with lethargy/ libido loss. I will also be using the pct kit for post cycle ( Sustain Alpha, Toco 8, Endo Amp). Will be up and running very soon.

 

[Trauma1]

Im gonna run a Superdrol cycle, with Dermacrine along with it to prevent and aid with lethargy/ libido loss. I will also be using the pct kit for post cycle ( Sustain Alpha, Toco 8, Endo Amp). Will be up and running very soon.

I'm looking forward to your results, kid. Speaking of....did you get a little package yet?

 

[slacker86]

subbed

 

[Kristofer68SS]

N.B.

For those that are going to use the 10 mg nolva dose you should be aware that 15.2 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate equal 10mg of Tamoxifen (Nolvadex). So if you are using research grade products then it may be underdosed by 50%.

This would not surprise me at all, but do you have any scientific data to back this statement?

 

[small_guy]

This would not surprise me at all, but do you have any scientific data to back this statement?

No lab test if that is what you mean. But a research chemical producer will bring in the raw powder and then divides it with filler to make the desired product concentration they wish to sell. So most likely they are selling you tamoxifen citrate at a certain dose say 20 mgs per cap which is what they advertise so that is fine. It is up to you as the educated consumer to realize that 20 mg nolvadex(Tamoxifen) dosage would give you 30.4 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate and not 20 mgs. So it is not like their product is really underdosed but rather that tamoxifen citrate does NOT equal nolvadex.

 

[MaxGolf]

Im gonna run a Superdrol cycle, with Dermacrine along with it to prevent and aid with lethargy/ libido loss. I will also be using the pct kit for post cycle ( Sustain Alpha, Toco 8, Endo Amp). Will be up and running very soon.

I would love to see a log on this

 

[Eric Potratz]

Good read.. So for Prop. esters you recommend waiting 2 weeks after your last inject, to start PCT?

Right, two weeks before PCT. From my experience, it take a good 10-14 days for the test prop to really clear the system after a cycle.

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

This would not surprise me at all, but do you have any scientific data to back this statement?

I think he means 33% less, because of the extra weight of the citrate in "Nolvadex".

-Eric

 

[CopyCat]

Just wanted to say I'm loving this thread.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I think he means 33% less, because of the extra weight of the citrate in "Nolvadex".

-Eric

so if i wanted 25mg of clomid, i dose 38mg? or just follow the directions on the bottle?

 

[CopyCat]

so if i wanted 25mg of clomid, i dose 38mg? or just follow the directions on the bottle?

No, he was referring to the difference from the pharmaceutical grade Nolva and the generic research grade. The latter also contains a significant amount of citrate that needs to be accounted for in the overall amount of a dose.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

No, he was referring to the difference from the pharmaceutical grade Nolva and the generic research grade. The latter also contains a significant amount of citrate that needs to be accounted for in the overall amount of a dose.

i get ya........ive always just what the label stated.

damn RC's. I would love to get me hands on some pharm cloey tabs.

 

[Eric Potratz]

No, he was referring to the difference from the pharmaceutical grade Nolva and the generic research grade. The latter also contains a significant amount of citrate that needs to be accounted for in the overall amount of a dose.

Yep.

-Eric

 

[MaxGolf]

Just wanted to say I'm loving this thread.

I think we all are

 

[CopyCat]

I think we all are

It really has been one of the more informative and helpful threads lately.

 

[MaxGolf]

It really has been one of the more informative and helpful threads lately.

I would have to agree 100%

 

[daos]

Good to know.

 

[FitModel]

hmm, this is an interesting thread.

so if you advise against using Nolva on cycle to combat "gyno flare-ups" what is the alternative adex? throughout? what dose?

also, i'm not completely understanding why you say not to use nolva (or torm) AND clomid. Nolva to combat estrogen and gyno, and clomid to help get your LH levels back, and the "boys" back (I'm not sure of the proper terminology.)

is it because your products do the same thing and are safer?

 

[MaxGolf]

hmm, this is an interesting thread.

so if you advise against using Nolva on cycle to combat "gyno flare-ups" what is the alternative adex? throughout? what dose?

also, i'm not completely understanding why you say not to use nolva (or torm) AND clomid. Nolva to combat estrogen and gyno, and clomid to help get your LH levels back, and the "boys" back (I'm not sure of the proper terminology.)

is it because your products do the same thing and are safer?

Check out this article. It’s a very good read.

 

[CopyCat]

Check out this article. It’s a very good read.

I'm telling ya PP is winning me over more and more each day with this thread.

 

[MaxGolf]

I'm telling ya PP is winning me over more and more each day with this thread.

We do what we can

 

[Eric Potratz]

hmm, this is an interesting thread.

so if you advise against using Nolva on cycle to combat "gyno flare-ups" what is the alternative adex? throughout? what dose?

also, i'm not completely understanding why you say not to use nolva (or torm) AND clomid. Nolva to combat estrogen and gyno, and clomid to help get your LH levels back, and the "boys" back (I'm not sure of the proper terminology.)

is it because your products do the same thing and are safer?

This might sound sarcastic, but if you have gyno flare up’s during the cycle, then don’t run the compound that is giving your flare up’s, or reduce the dose until the issue goes away. If you want to use something, I would recommend a steroidial AI such as exemestane, formestane, or ATD. (Clomid isn’t that great for combating flare up’s and Nolva can make the problems worse in the long run)

If the gyno is caused by a progestin then your only option besides keeping estrogen down is to take an anti-prolactin. (eg, bromocriptine, vitex, caber, ect)

Yes, our products are safer and similar in effectiveness to popular SERM’s for restoring the HPTA.

-Eric

 

[MaxGolf]

New EndoAmp Max check it out

 

[Alpine]

Its good to see a company bringing solid, legit, no frills products backed by hard science. These arent rare herbs and extracts that nobody has heard of. They are compounds with proven research behind them. We need a little more of this in the industry.

EndoAmp Max looks great. Toco8 too - Ive been using a NOW brand toco formula (not as good as toco8) for a long time now. I'm also real curious about the 1-T Tren, tempted to try that out.

Eric: How would you compare the standard dose of 1-T Tren to the standard oral dose of 19- Norandrosta-4, 9-Diene-3, 17-Dione in the 100mg/day range? Topical is roughly 25-35% delivery and oral is like 8-10%. I'm just wondering how that might play out in real world effect. It's a lot more being delivered and you're avoiding the liver stress of high oral doses too.

The 19- Nor should be ok on hair (apparently) but what about the 1-Androsterone (i.e. 1-testosterone)? It can be pretty harsh can't it? I guess 1-Test (100) would fall a little above Havoc/Epistane (91) but below PheraPlex (187) in terms of Androgenic #. All I know is 1-AD used to make a lot of people prone shed. I try to shy away from the more androgenic prohormones as of late. Getting older, hair line is creepin...

 

[Eric Potratz]

Its good to see a company bringing solid, legit, no frills products backed by hard science. These arent rare herbs and extracts that nobody has heard of. They are compounds with proven research behind them. We need a little more of this in the industry.

EndoAmp Max looks great. Toco8 too - Ive been using a NOW brand toco formula (not as good as toco8) for a long time now. I'm also real curious about the 1-T Tren, tempted to try that out.

Eric: How would you compare the standard dose of 1-T Tren to the standard oral dose of 19- Norandrosta-4, 9-Diene-3, 17-Dione in the 100mg/day range? Topical is roughly 25-35% delivery and oral is like 8-10%. I'm just wondering how that might play out in real world effect. It's a lot more being delivered and you're avoiding the liver stress of high oral doses too.

The 19- Nor should be ok on hair (apparently) but what about the 1-Androsterone (i.e. 1-testosterone)? It can be pretty harsh can't it? I guess 1-Test (100) would fall a little above Havoc/Epistane (91) but below PheraPlex (187) in terms of Androgenic #. All I know is 1-AD used to make a lot of people prone shed. I try to shy away from the more androgenic prohormones as of late. Getting older, hair line is creepin...

I’d say a 5 pump application of 1-T TREN is pretty close to 200-300mg/day of timed released oral 19-nor… timed released because the skin creates a depot for a slow release over 24hrs if you can keep from showering after each application.

We have had zero reports of 1-T causing hair shedding, and I don’t expect 1-T TREN to be much worse.

-Eric

 

[Alpine]

I’d say a 5 pump application of 1-T TREN is pretty close to 200-300mg/day of timed released oral 19-nor… timed released because the skin creates a depot for a slow release over 24hrs if you can keep from showering after each application.

We have had zero reports of 1-T causing hair shedding, and I don’t expect 1-T TREN to be much worse.

-Eric

Right but there is some DHT conversion with 1-T though. I assume this is why standard 1-T formula has pregnenolone and DHEA to balance and reduce conversion to DHT.
It was left out of the Tren formulation because of the E2/Tren/Progestrone issue that can arise. Anyway, the main question i guess is how would 1-test and its DHT conversion (however low) compare to something like Epistane in terms of effect on hair?