The New Product Release Thread

VeinNutrition said:
Stepping in for a quick reply on behalf the company:

Yes the article is very broad/general but the referenced 2016 study has the exact data you're looking for. I think for a lot of people, there's an assumption that because acreoline is in acrea nuts, and areca nuts are a carcinogen that acreoline is also a acreoline. However, this is not particularly valid because the ROAs (route of administration) is different and you cannot backwards extrapolate like that.

A few sentences down from the quote you posted, there's another direct quote from the article "As for its toxic properties, the study showed that there was no obvious toxicity when treating the mice, but emphasized that more research must be done to uncover the true extent of Arecoline's possible dangers."

I think the evidence and studies we have now are just too inconclusive. If you go back to my earlier in-depth post, my conclusion is basically that there's not enough conclusive evidence for the acreoline compound (not the acrea nut) to draw any solid conclusions at this time. However, because we recognize that that the evidence is inconclusive, we will pull the ingredient from our next run. The potential backlash out-weighs the benefits of the inclusion of the ingredient in our product.
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oh, im totally on board with you... just trying to get your reps to not post up articles that arent really relevant and may even be counterproductive to your (IMO reasonably valid) argument! Not meant to be a jab at all at the formula
 
booneman77 said:
oh, im totally on board with you... just trying to get your reps to not post up articles that arent really relevant and may even be counterproductive to your (IMO reasonably valid) argument! Not meant to be a jab at all at the formula
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No worries! From our daily conversations thus far, I think all our rep are genuine guys with good intentions. My reps stand behind me, so I have to stand up for them (in the appropriate situations of course). I posted a more elaborate explanation and went more in depth after my rep's post. justhere4comm and I were actually discussing a response at 1am in the morning and I linked him a few articles/studies I was planning to talk about. My entire post would have been too much to go over over text but neither he or I had any intentions on misleading or taking quotes out of context. I try to present both sides fairly, because I think if you have a strong argument, you don't have to shy away from criticism or counter arguments.

Our reps are still relatively new to the brand and products, but after some time, I welcome community members to give our reps a challenge every once in awhile! The only way to grow to be challenged, and I think our reps will be up for it!

A message I've been relaying to our rep team is to not let your emotions get into discussions or debates and to not bad-talk other companies. Instead, focus on logical, evidence backed reasoning and stick to the benefits and features of our products rather than what company X, Y, Z is doing wrong, etc.
justhere4comm Marms blueline438 smith_69
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Back at you, but combined with the 1mg of actual AHB given to the mice... It's like: "AHB isn't the only thing in Betal Nut!" - "But the mice were given isolated AHB!" - "Uh, well, the dose will be so low for humans!" :D
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My apologies, can you clarify? I think I understand your message but I don't want to misinterpret! Thanks.
 
VeinNutrition said:
My apologies, can you clarify? I think I understand your message but I don't want to misinterpret! Thanks.
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I was just giving respect back and contrasting the two arguments of: Arecoline isn't the only thing in the Betal Nut, and then in the Swiss Mice studies they gave them isolated Arecoline.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I was just giving respect back and contrasting the two arguments of: Arecoline isn't the only thing in the Betal Nut, and then in the Swiss Mice studies they gave them isolated Arecoline.
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Ah ok, that is what I thought. I'm not disagreeing with the Swiss mice study, those sort of isolate arecoline studies is what we need to see more of. However, the links posted regarding the studies on just the betal nut are less of significance is the point I was making regarding the cigarette analogy.

My only concerns with the Swiss mice study is that they noted that was no explanation for the discrepancy in female results as well as the note that the data collection methodology was not accurately documented - please refer to my original in-depth post to see the cited links and quote.

To further contrast, I provide 2 additional studies that showed acreoline as non toxic with no adverse effects at the studied doses. That's why I believe there just isn't enough conclusive evidence to point one way or the other.
 
From all-out battles over protein bar flavors to civil, intelligent conversations about a controversial ingredient....God I love this place!

I know nothing about the company, but I must admit that I am impressed by VN's handling of the situation. I'm also impressed with the knowledge dropped by everyone on both sides of the argument, and the demeanor of those who participated. It really helps consumers who aren't as well educated on these topics to make informed decisions (myself included).

That said, I still enjoy the immaturity and lightheartedness.
 
TrainerTone said:
Hear a lot of good things about Centurion Labz and their products. Just never got around to trying them myself.
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Yeah dude I met their team and Guy at a small event at our local shop recently all around good group and seemed like one of these very small companies putting together good product line focused on "for the people"

I've only used the various PRE's...rage, and GOW red and black. All are amazing. Rage is on par with meso and GOW red is the higher doses AMP-c pre and my current fav. It delivers every time and never gets old but I'm an Amp-c over Dmaa guy myself which is why I say that Dana is hit or miss for me.
 
Darkhorse192 said:
Yeah dude I met their team and Guy at a small event at our local shop recently all around good group and seemed like one of these very small companies putting together good product line focused on "for the people"

I've only used the various PRE's...rage, and GOW red and black. All are amazing. Rage is on par with meso and GOW red is the higher doses AMP-c pre and my current fav. It delivers every time and never gets old but I'm an Amp-c over Dmaa guy myself which is why I say that Dana is hit or miss for me.
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Sounds good. I know Guy was at a supp shop near me as well. Also one of my clients swears by one of their preworkouts. I'm interested in their protein powder among other things. And I agree, I'm not a fan of DMAA at all.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
2014 Meta Analysis out of India:

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Also indexed on PubMed:

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These are on betal nut chewing though.

Thats like saying you should avoid Vitamin C in apples because apples also have methanol which in high doses will kill you.

Im not defending the product, but cite evidence on the active in question being dangerous, not the entire nut being chewed which also contains a host of other actives which may contribute to the outcome.
 
Jiigzz said:
These are on betal nut chewing though.

Thats like saying you should avoid Vitamin C in apples because apples also have methanol which in high doses will kill you.

Im not defending the product, but cite evidence on the active in question being dangerous, not the entire nut being chewed which also contains a host of other actives which may contribute to the outcome.
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Thank you for your comment and added clarification. This is a commonly misunderstood or misrepresented concept. While there's some value in looking at the areca nut studies, the main focus and debate should be around the active ingredient in question.

Citing evidence for the dangers of the whole areca nut when discussing acreoline specifically is a form of straw man argument. There's no doubt that the indigenous use of areca nuts is dangerous, but that's the the argument we are pushing, we are focused on just the acreoline compound. A straw man argument is " refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent". It's a logical fallacy that an opponent can never "win" because you and your opponent are essentially not even debating the same subject.
Jiigzz the above comment mostly isn't directed at you, it's mainly for the readers to give some further background about why we can't and shouldn't be debating around the areca nut when we are discussing the acreoline compound. I'm glad that you made your comment because it shows that I'm not crazy in trying to explain why we shouldn't debate around the areca nut!

In any case, I'll reiterate that we plan on removing arecoline on our next production run of Controlled Burn due to the inconclusive body of evidence regarding toxicity as well as our belief that the general backlash and uncertainty outweigh the potential benefits of keeping it in our product.
 
Jiigzz said:
These are on betal nut chewing though.

Thats like saying you should avoid Vitamin C in apples because apples also have methanol which in high doses will kill you.

Im not defending the product, but cite evidence on the active in question being dangerous, not the entire nut being chewed which also contains a host of other actives which may contribute to the outcome.
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I did, the giant PDF with all the Swiss Mice that got cancer - isolated Arecoline, did you miss it? This just bolsters that you would have to be a moron (IMO) to sell/ use this stuff - especially since its "fat loss" data is even more sparse than its cancer data.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I did, the giant PDF with all the Swiss Mice that got cancer - isolated Arecoline, did you miss it? This just bolsters that you would have to be a moron (IMO) to sell/ use this stuff - especially since its "fat loss" data is even more sparse than its cancer data.
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If you get a chance please read my more in depth post here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/273260-new-product-release-394.html#post5664670

I go over the Swiss mice study, I go over a more recent study in 2015 that used 3x the HED of the 1984 Swiss mice data (which also had some fat loss data), as well as a 2016 study. I cover all the subjects that people have been mentioning in my original post but I'm not sure people are reading my original post because of the length. It's easy and convenient to continuously switch between pointing at the betal nut and then pointing at a 30+ year old study , ignoring the more recent studies.

A fair analysis looks at evidence from both sides and acknowledges then refutes or confirms each piece of evidence. Please take a few minutes to read my linked post above, I think I provide a short but fair analysis of both sides citing direct evidence. Thank you.
 
VeinNutrition said:
If you get a chance please read my more in depth post here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/273260-new-product-release-394.html#post5664670

I go over the Swiss mice study, I go over a more recent study in 2015 that used 3x the HED of the 1984 Swiss mice data (which also had some fat loss data), as well as a 2016 study. I cover all the subjects that people have been mentioning in my original post but I'm not sure people are reading my original post because of the length. It's easy and convenient to continuously switch between pointing at the betal nut and then pointing at a 30+ year old study , ignoring the more recent studies.

A fair analysis looks at evidence from both sides and acknowledges then refutes or confirms each piece of evidence. Please take a few minutes to read my linked post above, I think I provide a short but fair analysis of both sides citing direct evidence. Thank you.
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I will, but at this point, I could care less - I'll never touch anything with AHB in it, and will counsel others to do the same. There's a thing behind the Pharmacy counter called 'Primatene', and it blows AHB out of the water x 1 million as far as fat loss goes. Heck, if you want to be adventurous - which ingesting AHB certainly is in my book, you can legally obtain Albuterol, which is FDA approved and used in children.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I will, but at this point, I could care less - I'll never touch anything with AHB in it, and will counsel others to do the same. There's a thing behind the Pharmacy counter called 'Primatene', and it blows AHB out of the water x 1 million as far as fat loss goes. Heck, if you want to be adventurous - which ingesting AHB certainly is in my book, you can legally obtain Albuterol, which is FDA approved and used in children.
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I understand and respect your opinion. My main point is that as a community we should strive to approach debates in a fair and object matter.

We would get in big trouble if we used ephedrine and/or salbutamol(albuterol) in our dietary supplement products. They are FDA restricted drugs in which we cannot even legally purchase the raws materials for. Yes some of these are available OTC through a round about way, but then you get into the territory of slippy slopes. We should be comparing legal dietary supplements to other legal dietary supplements, not FDA restricted drugs. Anabolic steroids are many times more effective than any legally available supplement but then you're comparing a controlled substance with a legal dietary supplements. This is an unfair comparison because it's not comparing two legally available products.
 
VeinNutrition said:
I understand and respect your opinion. My main point is that as a community we should strive to approach debates in a fair and object matter.
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I wasn't suggesting you include banned (as an OTC Dietary Supplement), or outright scheduled drugs in your product. I was merely indicating that IMO, those other two options are *proven* safer, more effective and as easily obtained (and E is cheaper). Your product has a kitchen sink of stuff in it, a lot of which I don't even know what they are (probably different stims) - just pull the AHB (like you said you were) and you'd still have an attractive product. I get trying to defend the initial inclusion of it, as well as being "cutting edge" - but with this much smoke around AHB, and all the heat Dynamik Muscle got for including it - I'd have never even gone there.

It's like GSK pulling GW501516 - Sure, no humans in the concurrent trials developed cancer like the rats did - but why risk it?
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I wasn't suggesting you include banned (as an OTC Dietary Supplement), or outright scheduled drugs in your product. I was merely indicating that IMO, those other two options are *proven* safer, more effective and as easily obtained (and E is cheaper). Your product has a kitchen sink of stuff in it, a lot of which I don't even know what they are (probably different stims) - just pull the AHB (like you said you were) and you'd still have an attractive product. I get trying to defend the initial inclusion of it, as well as being "cutting edge" - but with this much smoke around AHB, and all the heat Dynamik Muscle got for including it - I'd have never even gone there.

It's like GSK pulling GW501516 - Sure, no humans in the concurrent trials developed cancer like the rats did - but why risk it?
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Yes we plan on pulling it from future production! Like you said, it isn't greatly detrimental to our product to remove it and the evidence for using it is too inconclusive. A risk/benefits analysis leans more towards removing it!

Oh I wish we could use a lot of what FDA has restricted :( . There's a lot of very effective compounds that the FDA has restricted, a lot of them due to the dangers of misuse. I think a good trend we're seeing in the supplement industry is companies and athletes being more open about how dietary supplements will not get you big and shredded without good food, consistency in the gym and drugs. With drugs, the potential for abuse is too large for the average user so I understand why the government has to regulate it.
 
VeinNutrition said:
Yes we plan on pulling it from future production! Like you said, it isn't greatly detrimental to our product to remove it and the evidence for using it is too inconclusive. A risk/benefits analysis leans more towards removing it!

Oh I wish we could use a lot of what FDA has restricted :( . There's a lot of very effective compounds that the FDA has restricted, a lot of them due to the dangers of misuse. I think a good trend we're seeing in the supplement industry is companies and athletes being more open about how dietary supplements will not get you big and shredded without good food, consistency in the gym and drugs. With drugs, the potential for abuse is too large for the average user so I understand why the government has to regulate it.
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Love me some bronk aid in the morning with some caffeine especially when I'm stuffed up like I am today.
 
AntM1564 said:
This. I have some caffeinated BCAA, but I only use them when I train fasted and feel like I need some caffeine. I would much rather have a pre workout and add aminos.
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yeah thats always my preference as well... theres just too many times a day I take bcaas to be having caff with every one of them.
 
1Fast400 said:
Good thing we offer all your BCAA needs lol. :)
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I bought 10 tubs to resell at my sisters lil warehouse gym few days ago. I went to open one tonight before teaching class and we had only one left a green apple. I wanted to try one of the new flavors oh well. Oh next time I may get some xtend go cause they kill the bangs every time. I buy them but I can't get them cheap anymore.
 
pulsefit said:
I bought 10 tubs to resell at my sisters lil warehouse gym few days ago. I went to open one tonight before teaching class and we had only one left a green apple. I wanted to try one of the new flavors oh well. Oh next time I may get some xtend go cause they kill the bangs every time. I buy them but I can't get them cheap anymore.
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Check it

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Xtend GO + Free Teacrine caps

This will give you some Sick energy and long lasting focus. 1Fast400 says this is his go to replacement for energy throughout the day.

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carguy123 said:
Oddly enough just checkout their website and on their home page under the Testimonials they have a picture and quote from the Gorilla Chemist (aka Bryan Moskow). Thought he was solely devoted to Black Stone Labs but maybe that is not the case, if not seems like a conflict of intrest haha
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I don't see a testimonial page.
 
Quake should be dropping soon guys!

When it does I'll get a logging promo up to get some tubs out to AM members for their honest feedback and review

Make sure you guys are checking that company promo and are log free!
 
The Solution said:
Quake should be dropping soon guys!

When it does I'll get a logging promo up to get some tubs out to AM members for their honest feedback and review

Make sure you guys are checking that company promo and are log free!
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Dang it, man. I literally JUST bought more non stim pre workout
 
The Solution said:
Quake should be dropping soon guys!

When it does I'll get a logging promo up to get some tubs out to AM members for their honest feedback and review

Make sure you guys are checking that company promo and are log free!
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I have been waiting for this, hopefully it is very soon!
 
Im sure if you ate enough apple seeds you might die from cyanide poisoning as well.
 
The Solution said:
Jason Theobald starting a small supp line (owner of scooby prep and a great prep coach)

First product is his GDA

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Few weeks bud

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Save your money and wait for the reincarnation of recompadrol y'all ...or buy that one and then be prepared to be blown away when you compare. Then new version will be MUCH more than just a gda. It will have a myriad of additional health benefits and be versatile for a variety of Physique and performance / health goals.
 
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