The Muscle Pump Restoration Project: Aging Man Reclaims Response to Pump Products

[thescience]

I've had a few encounters with people who have stated they arent responding to pump products, vasodilators, cialus etc like they used to. Has this happened to you? was this a bump in the road that you overcame by addressing the situation supplementally? Do you have any information or theories as to why this phenomenon may exist? is this problem a consequence of excessively inducing pumps and can it be addressed by balencing pump supplementation with all the necessary cofactors? If you have any input or interest for any of these questions, youve come to the right place. I've got a few theories of my own. and, Also, I will be running a log on Vasodrive AP be Ekkovision. any logs and reviews of products that have attempted or did address this issue are also welcome here

 

[thescience]

So Ed Byrd is accredited with having brought No2 products to the market with MRI's NO2, a later incarnate of which was NO2 Black that supposedly contained an undisclosed amount eNOS enzyme, which is known as a rate limiting factor in Nitric Oxide production. Ive kicked the idea around that a shortage of this may be the reason why im no longer getting back and glut pumps from dosing a few grams of agmatine, but i havent been inclined to go back to choking down those horsepills to test the theory.

Anyway, Vasodrive AP is an ingredient that has been popping up in some formulas. There are reviews stating some products that contain it are delivering the best pump theyve ever had. My interest is a tip I got concerning a standalone Vasodrive AP 508mg/serving product by Ekkovision. 1 just ordered it, but the company has a 8 day handling policy so it should be an eon before i begin logging.

The product writeup is here:

VasoDrive-AP®

One of the most researched tripeptide ingredients for cardiovascular health, VasoDrive-AP (also known as AmealPeptide®) is said to improve arterial flexibility by increasing the production of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS).* Derived from milk protein through a proprietary enzymatic...

www.maypro.com

Basically, the company is stating Vasodrive increases eNOS, which is an enzyme involved in the production of pump-inducing nitric oxide

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

I'm curious about this as well. Salt always helps, but I am up to 10,000 L Citruline and its not hitting the same.

 

[thescience]

10G? holy Sh*T in one sitting?

 

[Resolve10]

An interesting topic. I have some thoughts maybe I'll post up when I get some free time, "pump" can be quite multifactorial and the specifics of what you are or aren't doing training and nutrition wise can have quite an impact as well. It also helps to nail down what exactly we are talking about with the pump.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

10G? holy Sh*T in one sitting?

Yessir although I usually drink half pre half intra. Its called BioPump'd. Add a scoop of glycerol too. Love me some pumps haha.

 

[thescience]

Yessir although I usually drink half pre half intra. Its called BioPump'd. Add a scoop of glycerol too. Love me some pumps haha. View attachment 236548

oh my god. AND 1500 agmatine and 3500 beta alanine

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

oh my god. AND 1500 agmatine and 3500 beta alanine

It's definitely one of the higher dosed pump products I have been able to find. The Huperzine and Mucuna are a nice add for motivation and dopamine instead of stims/caffeine. If you try it, the watermelon flavor is best. Tastes like a Watermelon Jolly Rancher. Best price is at Nutrishop stores vs their site.

 

[thescience]

i see there are some blood building nutrients in there. i had this theory that maybe i just dont produce the same volume of blood as i used to and thought that theory was perhaps supported by the beet red trt guys at my gym always sporting massive pumps. that said, i spoke to one lifter on trt who also experienced a significant reduction in his pumps and he was making so much blood on trt that he needed transfusions. at least that one example doesnt support the blood theory

 

[sns8778]

Anyway, Vasodrive AP is an ingredient that has been popping up in some formulas. There are reviews stating some products that contain it are delivering the best pump theyve ever had. My interest is a tip I got concerning a standalone Vasodrive AP 508mg/serving product by Ekkovision. 1 just ordered it, but the company has a 8 day handling policy so it should be an eon before i begin logging.

The product writeup is here:

VasoDrive-AP®

One of the most researched tripeptide ingredients for cardiovascular health, VasoDrive-AP (also known as AmealPeptide®) is said to improve arterial flexibility by increasing the production of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS).* Derived from milk protein through a proprietary enzymatic...

www.maypro.com

Basically, the company is stating Vasodrive increases eNOS, which is an enzyme involved in the production of pump-inducing nitric oxide

VasoDrive AP is a branded ingredient that is distributed by MayPro, a large raw material supplier.

A lot of people don't realize that VasoDrive AP is actually AmealPeptide - same patent holder, different marketing.

AmealPeptide is a great ingredient for helping with blood pressure and that is what the clinicals are actually on.

AmealPeptide for blood pressure support has to be used at 508 mg. Amealpeptide to provide the active 3.4 mg. dosage that was used in the clinical studies, so it has to used at that dose to actually be called AmealPeptide.

It is a very expensive raw material at that dosage and that's why the patent holder came up with a different name and allowable dosage to be used for sports nutrition and pump purposes - VasoDrive AP.

VasoDrive AP is typically AmealPeptide at half the dose - 254 mg. VasoDrive AP for 1.7 mg. active.

In the case of the product you're referring to, that brand did something different from a marketing perspective - they went with the 508 mg. dose which would normally be called AmealPeptide, but they labeled it as VasoDrive AP, which is perfectly allowable. It was smart because they give the appearance that they're offering VasoDrive AP at double the dose of everyone else, but they're really only offering it at the normal AmealPeptide dose.

You may have seen people comment on the SNS Blood Pressure Support XT product that it gives the same or better pumps than many popular pump products, and that's because it actually contains AmealPeptide at the 508 mg dose providing the 3.4 mg. active dose used in the studies.

So, Blood Pressure Support XT actually contains this plus MegaNatural BP, S7, Hawthorn, Pine Bark Extract, and more for the 29.99 to 39.99 range.

Here's a link for anyone that wants to read the write up which includes information about Amealpeptide:

Blood Pressure Support XT - 120 Veg Caps | Serious Nutrition Solutions

Cardiovascular & Blood Pressure Support. Clinically Researched Key Ingredients. AmealPeptide, MegaNatural BP, S7, Hawthorn, & More. Full 30 Day Supply.

seriousnutritionsolutions.com

 

[thescience]

VasoDrive AP is a branded ingredient that is distributed by MayPro, a large raw material supplier.

A lot of people don't realize that VasoDrive AP is actually AmealPeptide - same patent holder, different marketing.

AmealPeptide is a great ingredient for helping with blood pressure and that is what the clinicals are actually on.

AmealPeptide for blood pressure support has to be used at 508 mg. Amealpeptide to provide the active 3.4 mg. dosage that was used in the clinical studies, so it has to used at that dose to actually be called AmealPeptide.

It is a very expensive raw material at that dosage and that's why the patent holder came up with a different name and allowable dosage to be used for sports nutrition and pump purposes - VasoDrive AP.

VasoDrive AP is typically AmealPeptide at half the dose - 254 mg. VasoDrive AP for 1.7 mg. active.

In the case of the product you're referring to, that brand did something different from a marketing perspective - they went with the 508 mg. dose which would normally be called AmealPeptide, but they labeled it as VasoDrive AP, which is perfectly allowable. It was smart because they give the appearance that they're offering VasoDrive AP at double the dose of everyone else, but they're really only offering it at the normal AmealPeptide dose.

You may have seen people comment on the SNS Blood Pressure Support XT product that it gives the same or better pumps than many popular pump products, and that's because it actually contains AmealPeptide at the 508 mg dose providing the 3.4 mg. active dose used in the studies.

So, Blood Pressure Support XT actually contains this plus MegaNatural BP, S7, Hawthorn, Pine Bark Extract, and more for the 29.99 to 39.99 range.

Here's a link for anyone that wants to read the write up which includes information about Amealpeptide:

Blood Pressure Support XT - 120 Veg Caps | Serious Nutrition Solutions

Cardiovascular & Blood Pressure Support. Clinically Researched Key Ingredients. AmealPeptide, MegaNatural BP, S7, Hawthorn, & More. Full 30 Day Supply.

seriousnutritionsolutions.com

View attachment 236551View attachment 236552

really good info. codeword amealpeptide for the same product, but stronger and at a better price

 

[thescience]

An interesting topic. I have some thoughts maybe I'll post up when I get some free time, "pump" can be quite multifactorial and the specifics of what you are or aren't doing training and nutrition wise can have quite an impact as well. It also helps to nail down what exactly we are talking about with the pump.

i remember doing high reps during covid for a bit. there were definately increased pumps specific to what i was hammering away at. I abandoned the practice when i shredded my arms so much that, while they were undoubtably composed of a higher muscle percentage, they had shrunk. it turns out a good amount a fat is making my arms look bigger and better. I definitely agree with hitting an area with multiple sets and following that with any other exercise for that muscle before doing anything else,

definitely interested in any thoughts on nutrition. i eat about 80g of carbs from shredded wheat before i train. in a perfect world id train at night after eating a big meal, but circumstances dictate. ive tried adding carb powders on top of breakfast preworkout.. i felt like oatmuscle was an exceptional carb product, but didnt see benefits in the pump area. total carbs for a normal day is 170g. people bring up salt. ive tried that to no avail, but i actually retain zero water from any amount of salt consumption. it may have to do with being on the normal but low end range for aldosterone. i also dont take caffeine in any form and dhea is pretty low in the normal range as well so maybe that all factors into why salt doesnt really affect me. test is 550. zero imptovements in pump via significant increases via natural means.

i suppose the pump that a pump addict wants here would be a feeling that youre as pumped as youde ever want to be, with that lasting all day. that kind of pump would exist on body parts, even ones that werent worked on that day, everything is popping out, massive unwarranted boners all the time, lying with your back down on a bed and feeling a layer of pump between you and the mattress. the kind of pump that when anyone touches you, theyre aghast at how firm everything is.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Another thing that comes to mind for forcing the pump is training with Blood Flow Restriction BFR Bands for legs and arms. There are tons of benefits, and while you are slightly weaker with them on, the pumps are insane, painful even. I highly recommend them. Get the cheap 20$ elastic leg straps/bands/cuffs as they work for arms too, and are no less effective than the pricey pump up ones. https://a.co/d/d8MQAwI

"Blood flow restriction (BFR) training has been reported to have significant benefits on local skeletal muscle including increasing local muscle mass, strength, and endurance while exercising with lower resistance."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8329318/

https://www.strengthresurgence.com/what-is-blood-flow-restriction-training-how-why-and-when-to-use-it/

 

[thescience]

Another thing that comes to mind for forcing the pump is training with Blood Flow Restriction BFR Bands for legs and arms. There are tons of benefits, and while you are slightly weaker with them on, the pumps are insane, painful even. I highly recommend them. Get the cheap 20$ elastic leg straps/bands/cuffs as they work for arms too, and are no less effective than the pricey pump up ones. https://a.co/d/d8MQAwI

"Blood flow restriction (BFR) training has been reported to have significant benefits on local skeletal muscle including increasing local muscle mass, strength, and endurance while exercising with lower resistance."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8329318/
View attachment 236554
https://www.strengthresurgence.com/what-is-blood-flow-restriction-training-how-why-and-when-to-use-it/

one of the reviewers said he would just bust them out on his last set , effectively training to the pump for every exercise which i could see myself doing

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

one of the reviewers said he would just bust them out on his last set , effectively training to the pump for every exercise which i could see myself doing

I usually use them after heavy lifts on my volume sets at the end of my leg day or arm day. Great finisher.
Another guy I train with cant go as heavy as he used to (due to a low back injury) so he uses them the whole workout- as you get the same stimulation from lighter weight.
The added bloodflow/nutrients forced to stay in the muscle can help an injured tricep (for example) or other part of leg or arm in a rehab scenario.
Girls will use them to occlude(and therefore weaken) leg muscles to increase load on their glutes and force more butt growth. They are a really interesting added facet to training, that I have found fun to play around with.

 

[Beau]

According to this webinar, some men lose the ability to produce Nitric Oxide, regardless of supplementing with materials such as Citrulline Malate. The entire video is worth watching, but (I believe) the most targeted information is at about 35:00.

 

[thescience]

According to this webinar, some men lose the ability to produce Nitric Oxide, regardless of supplementing with materials such as Citrulline Malate. The entire video is worth watching, bit (I believe) the most targeted information is at about 35:00.

. here is the ingredient list of the product he put together and he wants $99 for it:

the video is really good

 

[thescience]

interestingly, he said 50% of men who take viagra are non-responders ( due to low NO production)

 

[sns8778]

^^^ The above part here about the body's natural NO production is why we use S7 in Blood Pressure Support XT and Optimize-T; because whereas other things are introducing nitric oxide enhancers into the body, the studies on S7 show it to help increase the body's natural levels.

 

[thescience]

the lecture is also saying 50-60% of the population may have the mthfr defect (resulting in lack of methylfolate) which in turn prevents NO production.

 

[thescience]

it's also wild how much he's saying nitrate levels found in grocery store vegetables vary from one area to another, "in dallas 6 stalks of celery" are (approximately) equal to 86 stalks in new york

 

[sns8778]

the lecture is also saying 50-60% of the population may have the mthfr defect (resulting in lack of methylfolate) which in turn prevents NO production.

it's also wild how much he's saying nitrate levels found in grocery store vegetables vary from one area to another, "in dallas 6 stalks of celery" are (approximately) equal to 86 stalks in new york

I haven't watched the video. I will try to this weekend.

But I've known that I had the MTHFR issue since before most people had ever heard of it. I would say that it may hinder nitric oxide production or make someone produce less, but I don't believe that it prevents it - I'm going off of what you wrote, if that's what the video said.

I don't know the percentage difference for nitrates, as that is something that's honestly never interested me enough to research, but I know the mineral values can vary dramatically from area to area for vegetables.

 

[Resolve10]

i remember doing high reps during covid for a bit. there were definately increased pumps specific to what i was hammering away at. I abandoned the practice when i shredded my arms so much that, while they were undoubtably composed of a higher muscle percentage, they had shrunk. it turns out a good amount a fat is making my arms look bigger and better. I definitely agree with hitting an area with multiple sets and following that with any other exercise for that muscle before doing anything else,

definitely interested in any thoughts on nutrition. i eat about 80g of carbs from shredded wheat before i train. in a perfect world id train at night after eating a big meal, but circumstances dictate. ive tried adding carb powders on top of breakfast preworkout.. i felt like oatmuscle was an exceptional carb product, but didnt see benefits in the pump area. total carbs for a normal day is 170g. people bring up salt. ive tried that to no avail, but i actually retain zero water from any amount of salt consumption. it may have to do with being on the normal but low end range for aldosterone. i also dont take caffeine in any form and dhea is pretty low in the normal range as well so maybe that all factors into why salt doesnt really affect me. test is 550. zero imptovements in pump via significant increases via natural means.

i suppose the pump that a pump addict wants here would be a feeling that youre as pumped as youde ever want to be, with that lasting all day. that kind of pump would exist on body parts, even ones that werent worked on that day, everything is popping out, massive unwarranted boners all the time, lying with your back down on a bed and feeling a layer of pump between you and the mattress. the kind of pump that when anyone touches you, theyre aghast at how firm everything is.

Ok so I think that is a bit of a different question than the original. All the factors that encompass a pump are pretty vast and the answer might be different from what is limiting an individual from finding a pump as they age.

A couple things to keep in mind is that there is an interplay between many factors for what may cause a pump so that you won't find one unifying reason why some people are having trouble getting pumped (they'll have different limiters) and that there is only so much "pump" you can have outside of training. There are things you can do to improve, but it doesn't make sense physiologically to maintain the level of pump you get in training outside of training since it would hinder so many other things going on inside the body.

Another thing that comes to mind for forcing the pump is training with Blood Flow Restriction BFR Bands for legs and arms. There are tons of benefits, and while you are slightly weaker with them on, the pumps are insane, painful even. I highly recommend them. Get the cheap 20$ elastic leg straps/bands/cuffs as they work for arms too, and are no less effective than the pricey pump up ones. https://a.co/d/d8MQAwI

"Blood flow restriction (BFR) training has been reported to have significant benefits on local skeletal muscle including increasing local muscle mass, strength, and endurance while exercising with lower resistance."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8329318/

FWIW I have extensive use of BFR training and while the straps are nice, they are not going to be as effective as using a calibrated device to achieve specific levels of occlusion per each individual and body part.

They have great benefits in injured populations and if used in the right way can have a place in various other training programs as well. The 30-15-15-15 protocol will blow you up if done appropriately.

I haven't watched the video. I will try to this weekend.

But I've known that I had the MTHFR issue since before most people had ever heard of it. I would say that it may hinder nitric oxide production or make someone produce less, but I don't believe that it prevents it - I'm going off of what you wrote, if that's what the video said.

I don't know the percentage difference for nitrates, as that is something that's honestly never interested me enough to research, but I know the mineral values can vary dramatically from area to area for vegetables.

Ya it varies and that is part of the reason why it can be so hard to feel confident buying a beetroot product for nitrate content. My mistrust of companies product testing and standardization runs deep.

What's in Your Beet Juice? Nitrate and Nitrite Content of Beet Juice Products Marketed to Athletes

 

[sns8778]

Ya it varies and that is part of the reason why it can be so hard to feel confident buying a beetroot product for nitrate content. My mistrust of companies product testing and standardization runs deep.

Cheers to that. There are very few companies that I trust and like their formulas.

The lack of testing in this industry, products not meeting label claims, and brands not even doing basic heavy metals and microbial testing is way too common.

I've been in this industry for a long time on both the supply chain side and the finished products side, and I use a lot of supplements but they all come from just a handful of companies that I trust.

 

[Beau]

I am very glad that I watched and posted the video. It sort of "feels good" when you see something provoked thought. I certainly didn't do anything (nor am I trying to take credit), but I am pleased to see that others also found it of interest.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

@Resolve10 I agree, 30 - 15 - 15 - 15 or higher rep ranges with minimal rest really works. I use the straps which are numbered and try to keep note of the number which achieves optimal tightness without numbness, but thats the extent of my calibration. What 'calibrated' BFRs do you recommend? And why? Do you progressive overload tightness?

 

[Resolve10]

For just general hypertrophy the straps are probably fine. I don't want to try and downplay that.

For clinical use in a rehab situation there is specific levels based on upper arm or thigh that you can use that will be calibrated based on your own blood pressure.

Currently use Saga wireless BFR cuffs, but I've used some others in the past.

Again don't feel the need to rush out and grab some, I should have added a * for like a caveat that I meant in more measured settings like rehab.

 

[thescience]

Ok so I think that is a bit of a different question than the original. All the factors that encompass a pump are pretty vast and the answer might be different from what is limiting an individual from finding a pump as they age.

A couple things to keep in mind is that there is an interplay between many factors for what may cause a pump so that you won't find one unifying reason why some people are having trouble getting pumped (they'll have different limiters) and that there is only so much "pump" you can have outside of training. There are things you can do to improve, but it doesn't make sense physiologically to maintain the level of pump you get in training outside of training since it would hinder so many other things going on inside the body.



FWIW I have extensive use of BFR training and while the straps are nice, they are not going to be as effective as using a calibrated device to achieve specific levels of occlusion per each individual and body part.

They have great benefits in injured populations and if used in the right way can have a place in various other training programs as well. The 30-15-15-15 protocol will blow you up if done appropriately.



Ya it varies and that is part of the reason why it can be so hard to feel confident buying a beetroot product for nitrate content. My mistrust of companies product testing and standardization runs deep.

What's in Your Beet Juice? Nitrate and Nitrite Content of Beet Juice Products Marketed to Athletes

"with a ~50-fold range in NO3- content between the lowest and highest"
-yikes

I could see some people not getting pumps like they used to on account of reduced nitrate intake because they moved to a different area, changed their diet, or caught a week batch of beet powder

 

[Resolve10]

Been feeling a little unmotivated to fully dive in, but in regards to the initial question about aging and its effects on pumps, here is some relevant research just to get your mind going.

Modulatory influences on ageing of the vasculature in healthy humans

Consistent with this idea, habitual aerobic exercise appears to attenuate or completely prevent these adverse changes. Other factors including sex hormone status, circulating total and low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol levels, total body and abdominal fatness, and dietary sodium intake also appear to influence arterial stiffening and endothelial dysfunction with ageing. It is now clear that a number of physiological factors and lifestyle behaviors collectively determine how much and, perhaps in some cases, if functionally or clinically significant vascular ageing occurs in adult humans. Of these, the existing evidence indicates that habitual aerobic exercise may be the single most important modulatory influence.

Ageing reduces the compensatory vasodilatation during hypoxic exercise: the role of nitric oxide

Our data suggest that ageing reduces the compensatory vasodilator response to hypoxic exercise via blunted NO signalling.

I've often wondered how much some people's issues with recovery could stem from lack of blood flow and cardiovascular fitness (putting that super generally) and the first study just gets me thinking about that again. Maybe more in relation to how if you neglect your aerobic fitness you might be decreasing your long term progress; healthy heart, lungs, and tubes carrying your blood could help keep the pump going.

I honestly never have issues with pumps and think I am in decent shape.

 

[sns8778]

Been feeling a little unmotivated to fully dive in, but in regards to the initial question about aging and its effects on pumps, here is some relevant research just to get your mind going.

Modulatory influences on ageing of the vasculature in healthy humans

Ageing reduces the compensatory vasodilatation during hypoxic exercise: the role of nitric oxide

I've often wondered how much some people's issues with recovery could stem from lack of blood flow and cardiovascular fitness (putting that super generally) and the first study just gets me thinking about that again. Maybe more in relation to how if you neglect your aerobic fitness you might be decreasing your long term progress; healthy heart, lungs, and tubes carrying your blood could help keep the pump going.

I honestly never have issues with pumps and think I am in decent shape.

I've been kind of hesitant to want to do a deep dive into explaining all of this too, but there's definitely more to it - and you brought up one of the points I'd been thinking about since seeing the thread, and that's how neglecting aerobic fitness and cardiovascular health can effect blood flow, especially as we age.

That's actually one of the reasons we use VasoFlo+ in Pepti-Plex.

Another point I think that gets overlooked is endothelial health in general - and I've mentioned in several threads how Super Swole is great for pumps but so good for endothelial health that we could easily take the same formula, put it under the SNS Health Series, and could sell it as the most complete endothelial health product on the market.

That's a big part of why people not only see great pumps when they take Super Swole on workout days, but why a lot of people use it every day because daily use can help improve endothelial health which can lead to even better pumps and blood flow; and is also why I think people report such good benefits on erection quality from Super Swole caps.

 

[Resolve10]

I’m obviously somewhat biased, but I think a lot of people neglect the cardio for too long and it adds up.

Lots of solid ingredients to help with these things too, it’s very multifaceted and I also think it’s a tough subject because “what a pump is” may depend on what each persons view is and isn’t always one unified idea.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

So remedies would be more cardio, S7, high quality beets and other endothelial health/supplementation/stimulation? Oh and dont age? haha

 

[thescience]

Ageing reduces the compensatory vasodilatation during hypoxic exercise: the role of nitric oxide


I've often wondered how much some people's issues with recovery could stem from lack of blood flow and cardiovascular fitness (putting that super generally) and the first study just gets me thinking about that again. Maybe more in relation to how if you neglect your aerobic fitness you might be decreasing your long term progress; healthy heart, lungs, and tubes carrying your blood could help keep the pump going.

I honestly never have issues with pumps and think I am in decent shape.

"Additionally, the lack of change in compensatory vasodilatation following administration of l-NMMA suggests that the impaired vasodilator response with ageing is due to blunted NO signalling":

"age-related increases in free radical scavenging can inactivate NO (via formation of peroxynitrite) (van der Loo et al. 2000) and possibly blunt NO-mediated vasodilatation during exercise. In this context, intra-arterial infusion of the anti-oxidant ascorbic acid has been shown to improve blood flow to the contracting forearm in older men and women during normoxic exercise"

so what blunts the NO signaling. these guys are suggesting free radical scavenging since vitamin c helped increase blood flow, but hasnt vitamin c been shown to have a blood-thinning effect? is the improved blood flow from vitamain c possibly due to that or one of it's other effects? I wonder if a tendency toward atherosclerosis in ageing people is more of the issue as dr. Bryan suggested

 

[sns8778]

"Additionally, the lack of change in compensatory vasodilatation following administration of l-NMMA suggests that the impaired vasodilator response with ageing is due to blunted NO signalling":

"age-related increases in free radical scavenging can inactivate NO (via formation of peroxynitrite) (van der Loo et al. 2000) and possibly blunt NO-mediated vasodilatation during exercise. In this context, intra-arterial infusion of the anti-oxidant ascorbic acid has been shown to improve blood flow to the contracting forearm in older men and women during normoxic exercise"

so what blunts the NO signaling. these guys are suggesting free radical scavenging since vitamin c helped increase blood flow, but hasnt vitamin c been shown to have a blood-thinning effect? isnt benefit from vitamain c possibly due to that or one of it's other effects? I wonder if a tendency toward atherosclerosis in ageing people is more of the issue as dr. Bryan suggested

I'm not going to touch on the Vitamin C question bc it always seems to cause a heated argument on here haha.

But one of the things that causes age-related issues with decreased NO is what I mentioned above about diminished endothelial health.

I researched this in tremendous depth when doing the formula for Super Swole and that's why the formula for that targets nitric oxide and blood flow from a variety of different pathways - increasing NO, improving blood flow, through NO synthase, and then a big aspect of it is on improving endothelial health and also on not just introducing NO to the body but helping the body produce more on its own.

 

[sns8778]

I’m obviously somewhat biased, but I think a lot of people neglect the cardio for too long and it adds up.

Lots of solid ingredients to help with these things too, it’s very multifaceted and I also think it’s a tough subject because “what a pump is” may depend on what each persons view is and isn’t always one unified idea.

I agree. Some people think of a pump as something they experience in the gym and for a few hours afterwards. I think about it in terms of better muscle fullness all the time.

I definitely agree too that a lot of people neglect cardio for far too long and then its like they're playing catchup later in life when they try to focus on it more and if neglected for too long, some of the damage is simply done. Of course people should do it regardless and do the best they can, but someone starting at 45 is very doubtful ever going to achieve the cardiovascular level of someone that has always done it.

 

[sns8778]

So remedies would be more cardio, S7, high quality beets and other endothelial health/supplementation/stimulation? Oh and dont age? haha

I think more cardio definitely helps in the long term. The better the blood flow and vein and arterial integrity, the better you'll see benefits from most anything else in the nitric oxide/blood flow families.

S7 is a great ingredient for helping increase your body's own NO production. People tend to think of it as just for pumps, but it helping to increase your bodies own levels is why we use it in things like Blood Pressure Support XT and Optimize-T. It's also in VasoForce XT and Super Swole caps.

If you figure out the don't age part, be sure to let me know. I've always loved dinosaurs but unfortunately have started to feel like one haha

 

[Beau]

So remedies would be more cardio, S7, high quality beets and other endothelial health/supplementation/stimulation? Oh and dont age? haha

Arugula is much higher in nitrates than beets, yet you almost never hear this. Odd, huh?

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Arugula is much higher in nitrates than beets, yet you almost never hear this. Odd, huh?

Never heard that. Youve got all the tips @Beau! Thanks I'll add em to the diet.

 

[Beau]

Never heard that. Youve got all the tips @Beau! Thanks I'll add em to the diet.

Hardly, but thanks.

 

[thescience]

obviously, these values are subject to wild variation depending on where you buy them. there's a powder called techtanic red that claims to be standardized to 350mg/30g beet powder

 

[thescience]

Endothelial dysfunction due to eNOS uncoupling: molecular mechanisms as potential therapeutic targets - PubMed

Nitric oxide (NO) is one of the most important molecules released by endothelial cells, and its antiatherogenic properties support cardiovascular homeostasis. Diminished NO bioavailability is a common hallmark of endothelial dysfunction underlying the pathogenesis of the cardiovascular disease...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

"Cardiovascular risk factors such as diabetes, dyslipidemia, hypertension, aging, or smoking increase vascular oxidative stress that strongly affects eNOS activity and leads to eNOS uncoupling. Uncoupled eNOS produces superoxide anion (O2-) instead of NO, thus becoming a source of harmful free radicals exacerbating the oxidative stress further."

"Here, we discuss the main mechanisms of eNOS uncoupling, including oxidative depletion of the critical eNOS cofactor BH4, deficiency of eNOS substrate L-Arg, or accumulation of its analog asymmetrical dimethylarginine (ADMA), and eNOS S-glutathionylation."

 

[Resolve10]

So we have not doing cardio and now not eating enough vegetables, can we turn this into like a three strikes you are out of things lots of gym bros don't do enough of?

 

[SweetLou321]

I am not an expert on this topic but I will add some notes.

Blood volume likely matters for a "pump." Having enough sodium as mentioned earlier would matter here. I have read that the tongue has salt related receptors that are sensitive to the bodies overall needs, so salting food to taste is likely the way to go here. If you sweat a lot, based on some research in athletes, you can sweat grams of salt in a single session. Make sure you have enough water to go with this, light yellow urine color is usually sufficient from what I have seen suggested.

Fluid in the muscle will matter as well. Not eating enough total carbohydrates to have nearly full glycogen stores will be a factor here. I think most people assume just eating before a session is enough, but it can take hours for carbohydrates to be digested and assimilated into glycogen. So if you are on a lower carb diet, do not be surprised if your pumps are less overall.

On the topic of peroxynitrite, gamma tocopherol has some data meditating this concern:

Gamma-tocopherol may promote effective no synthase function by protecting tetrahydrobiopterin from peroxynitrite - PubMed

Oxidation of tetrahydrobiopterin by peroxynitrite in oxidant-stressed endothelium compromises nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) activity while amplifying superoxide production; this mechanism contributes prominently to the endothelial dysfunction that characterizes many common clinical disorders. As...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If looking at supplemental or dietary nitrate as a method to increase NO, be considerate regarding mouthwash use and the oral microbiome:

Antibacterial Mouthwash Blunts Oral Nitrate Reduction and Increases Blood Pressure in Treated Hypertensive Men and Women

AbstractBACKGROUND. Endothelial nitric oxide (NO) is fundamental to cardiovascular health. Dietary nitrate and nitrate from endothelial derived NO metaboli

academic.oup.com

Endothelial function has been talked about in this thread with things to help, but also focusing on the glycocalyx can be important as we age:

The Structure and Function of the Glycocalyx and Its Connection With Blood-Brain Barrier

The vascular endothelial glycocalyx is a dense, bush-like structure that is synthesized and secreted by endothelial cells and evenly distributed on the surface of vascular endothelial cells. The blood-brain barrier (BBB) is mainly composed of pericytes ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

).

Glycocalyx Impairment in Vascular Disease: Focus on Inflammation

The glycocalyx is a complex polysaccharide-protein layer lining the lumen of vascular endothelial cells. Changes in the structure and function of the glycocalyx promote an inflammatory response in blood vessels and play an important role in the pathogenesis of many vascular diseases (e.g...

www.frontiersin.org

But as far as actionable steps, I would probably focus on having a stable cardiovascular base and focus on having enough carbohydrates, water, and salt in the diet as a base. It would be good to make sure one has a good metabolism of glucose, healthy lipid profile, low levels of chronic inflammation, and consider paying attention to advanced glycation end products. From there one could focus on endothelial health and NO production via several mechanisms such as nitrates for a non-oxygen dependent pathway, citrulline for an oxygen dependent pathway, increasing hydrogen sulfide via garlic, inhibiting NO breakdown with something like pine bark extract, and increasing eNOS synthase activity with something like aronia berry or S7. One could increase blood volume with high dose glycerin as well.

The last thing I would mention is a lot of NO ingredients can take hours to work to peak levels. Nitrates via the route in the body they are metabolized can take 2-4 hours to result in elevated NO levels after consumption. While still taking about nitrates, if this is something one wants to focus on, then a diet containing several sources of nitrates has been shown to be effective, one would want to aim to consume a decent average level of nitrates almost daily in this case:

Effects of a Short-Term High-Nitrate Diet on Exercise Performance

It has been reported that nitrate supplementation can improve exercise performance. Most of the studies have used either beetroot juice or sodium nitrate as a supplement; there is lack of data on the potential ergogenic benefits of an increased dietary ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Resolve10]

Good info Lou. I was going to post how aerobic training leads to increases in blood volume as well and see you touched on that.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on specifics to fatigue levels and potential reasonings and effects that lower pumps. Along the lines of how when I see trainees mention they just aren't getting pumps, but it could be they need to offload some fatigue and bodybuilders using this as a sign for a need to deload.

 

[SweetLou321]

Good info Lou. I was going to post how aerobic training leads to increases in blood volume as well and see you touched on that.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on specifics to fatigue levels and potential reasonings and effects that lower pumps. Along the lines of how when I see trainees mention they just aren't getting pumps, but it could be they need to offload some fatigue and bodybuilders using this as a sign for a need to deload.

While I have not seen any data on the topic of "fatigue" and a decrease in the ability to develop a "pump," I will layout some thoughts to the matter.

Lets first define "fatigue." In this context I will be talking about scientific definitions of peripheral and central fatigue. Peripheral fatigue is the fatigue a muscle experience locally from the building up of by products. Central fatigue is when the nervous system downregulates the ability to recruit high threshold motor units.

In an acute sense, the factors that lead to peripheral fatigue actually contribute to a pump. This is one reason higher rep training usually results in more of a pump compared to lower rep training, despite on average they are both equally effective for muscle growth. I could see a case within a workout where one just accumulates so much peripheral fatigue that it starts to translate into central fatigue, this may mean that once this tipping point is reached, more sets without letting the peripheral fatigue go away could lead to flattening out effect on an intra training session pump for a muscle and even a decline as one is not able to recruit high threshold motor units and thus the body is working to prevent the build up of more metabolites to allow them to clear, thus causing the pump to start to clear as well. Not only would this result in less of a pump but the volume done after this point would not be very stimulating for muscle growth at all. We could also couple in muscle damage accumulating from set to set and increasing ROS and inflammation, both of these decreasing NO production and causing a pump to decline during a session. These are my best guesses ATM for why one may have a increase in a pump from say set 1 to set 4 for a muscle, but then a decline during say sets 5-9 for example.

Now when talking about carrying around to much "fatigue" to where one goes to train and they cannot really establish a pump in the first place and using that as a sign to deload. My best guess is they have accumulated enough muscle damage in the target muscle over the week or weeks of training that central fatigue is lingering from session to session. Peripheral fatigue is usually occurring between sets in a muscle and is local, this can lead to central fatigue as outline above, but once the peripheral fatigue is cleared, too should be the central fatigue unless it is being driven by muscle damage, which takes some time to repair. So the target muscle is still carrying too much damage to where the nervous system is decreasing the ability to recruit high threshold motor units for that muscle to help prevent further damage and allow the muscle to heal. This would mean that even hitting "failure," the high threshold motor units are still not being recruited and thus this helps the body avoid more peripheral fatigue and damage. This would in my guess lead to a decreased ability to even obtain a pump in the target muscle, also, in this case, this means all the sets, even ones to or near failure are also not very stimulating for muscle growth. Training in this state should be limited to active recovery, as training to get more gains just does not make sense. I would be willing to bet that in most cases one's performance increases are likely very flat lined or declining by the time one has so much muscle damage they cannot even get a pump, and those would be my leading indicators more so in this case if a deload of some kind is warranted. But to me, this is why RP uses the measure of a "pump" in their assessment of the success of a training session or when its time to back off. The longer we training, the slower performance increases are, and in the truly advanced, it can take weeks to see enough adaptations to take place to see a performance increase, then a bad night of sleep could throw off this trend line, so maybe adding a "pump" measurement in this case can help have more data to really see when its time to back off or if there is too much volume in a particular session for example. Coupling this with muscle soreness, as they do makes sense, but that is another topic entirely.

 

[Resolve10]

Sweet.

Ya I had some thoughts too, but am a bit busy at the moment.

I had seen some thoughts on how contraction strength could potentially lead to blood flow increase and thought maybe that could tie in.

Lots of other ideas too, but again busy at the moment and you probably covered it better than I could. Thanks.

(Especially the peripheral leading to pumps I wanted to touch on that too, you layered that in nicely).

 

[Resolve10]

I did ask specifically bc of the RP stuff so again thanks for touching on that.

 

[SweetLou321]

I had seen some thoughts on how contraction strength could potentially lead to blood flow increase and thought maybe that could tie in.

I would think it matters. In a real world example doing a set of 30 near failure for a fresh muscle will likely lead to a decent pump for most but doing a set of 30 no where near failure likely does not do much for many. So there is likely something happening with regard to the recruit of high threshold motor units, and thus contraction strength, the accumulation of byproducts and recruitment of high levels of blood flow that ultimately leads to a during set and post-set pump that just does not happen to the same degree when these conditions are not met.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

I tried high nitrite diet this morning. 4 handfuls of arugula with my eggs and a beet and spirulina drink. Lifted at 1:00 and pumps were great.

 

[thescience]

I am not an expert on this topic but I will add some notes.

Blood volume likely matters for a "pump." Having enough sodium as mentioned earlier would matter here. I have read that the tongue has salt related receptors that are sensitive to the bodies overall needs, so salting food to taste is likely the way to go here. If you sweat a lot, based on some research in athletes, you can sweat grams of salt in a single session. Make sure you have enough water to go with this, light yellow urine color is usually sufficient from what I have seen suggested.

Fluid in the muscle will matter as well. Not eating enough total carbohydrates to have nearly full glycogen stores will be a factor here. I think most people assume just eating before a session is enough, but it can take hours for carbohydrates to be digested and assimilated into glycogen. So if you are on a lower carb diet, do not be surprised if your pumps are less overall.

On the topic of peroxynitrite, gamma tocopherol has some data meditating this concern:

Gamma-tocopherol may promote effective no synthase function by protecting tetrahydrobiopterin from peroxynitrite - PubMed

Oxidation of tetrahydrobiopterin by peroxynitrite in oxidant-stressed endothelium compromises nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) activity while amplifying superoxide production; this mechanism contributes prominently to the endothelial dysfunction that characterizes many common clinical disorders. As...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If looking at supplemental or dietary nitrate as a method to increase NO, be considerate regarding mouthwash use and the oral microbiome:

Antibacterial Mouthwash Blunts Oral Nitrate Reduction and Increases Blood Pressure in Treated Hypertensive Men and Women

AbstractBACKGROUND. Endothelial nitric oxide (NO) is fundamental to cardiovascular health. Dietary nitrate and nitrate from endothelial derived NO metaboli

academic.oup.com

Endothelial function has been talked about in this thread with things to help, but also focusing on the glycocalyx can be important as we age:

The Structure and Function of the Glycocalyx and Its Connection With Blood-Brain Barrier

The vascular endothelial glycocalyx is a dense, bush-like structure that is synthesized and secreted by endothelial cells and evenly distributed on the surface of vascular endothelial cells. The blood-brain barrier (BBB) is mainly composed of pericytes ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

).

Glycocalyx Impairment in Vascular Disease: Focus on Inflammation

The glycocalyx is a complex polysaccharide-protein layer lining the lumen of vascular endothelial cells. Changes in the structure and function of the glycocalyx promote an inflammatory response in blood vessels and play an important role in the pathogenesis of many vascular diseases (e.g...

www.frontiersin.org

But as far as actionable steps, I would probably focus on having a stable cardiovascular base and focus on having enough carbohydrates, water, and salt in the diet as a base. It would be good to make sure one has a good metabolism of glucose, healthy lipid profile, low levels of chronic inflammation, and consider paying attention to advanced glycation end products. From there one could focus on endothelial health and NO production via several mechanisms such as nitrates for a non-oxygen dependent pathway, citrulline for an oxygen dependent pathway, increasing hydrogen sulfide via garlic, inhibiting NO breakdown with something like pine bark extract, and increasing eNOS synthase activity with something like aronia berry or S7. One could increase blood volume with high dose glycerin as well.

The last thing I would mention is a lot of NO ingredients can take hours to work to peak levels. Nitrates via the route in the body they are metabolized can take 2-4 hours to result in elevated NO levels after consumption. While still taking about nitrates, if this is something one wants to focus on, then a diet containing several sources of nitrates has been shown to be effective, one would want to aim to consume a decent average level of nitrates almost daily in this case:

Effects of a Short-Term High-Nitrate Diet on Exercise Performance

It has been reported that nitrate supplementation can improve exercise performance. Most of the studies have used either beetroot juice or sodium nitrate as a supplement; there is lack of data on the potential ergogenic benefits of an increased dietary ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

wow theres a pretty phenomenal wealth of info here. it's actually going to take me some time to unpack it!