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The Future of Primordial Performance

lots of crazy claims in here.

I cant wait to see some user feedback. I've always enjoyed PP's products but the entire lineup is just about out of my price range
 
halfhuman said:
So im guessing taking andromass on a full dose for 6 weeks lethargy will occur? Now will taking a pre workout with andromass be useful? Wat would be good to combat lethargy while andromass if this happens? I do have androlean but im thinking of running that solo as well at full dose.
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I wouldn't think so, the conversion to 4AD/Test should keep lethargy at bay. Running it at double the dose then perhaps, which is why Eric recommends running AH with it instead.
 
that was one of the reasons for running 4-ad with 1-ad back in the day, to prevent the lethargy & other sides you see from 1-testosterone.
 
well, it's more similar to ams's 1-ad & 4-ad than the old ergopharm's 1-ad/4-ad thats for sure.

I wish it wasn't expensive, i'd def like to actually try this stuff. but I can buy 4-androstenediol & m1t for cheaper.

(def not as safe, but hey, 4-diol + m1t, your gonna blow the fcuk up!)
 
jbryand101b said:
well, it's more similar to ams's 1-ad & 4-ad than the old ergopharm's 1-ad/4-ad thats for sure.

I wish it wasn't expensive, i'd def like to actually try this stuff. but I can buy 4-androstenediol & m1t for cheaper.

(def not as safe, but hey, 4-diol + m1t, your gonna blow the fcuk up!)
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Yes, one might literally blow up from that lol

M1t raises methyl estradiol right?
 
halfhuman said:
Yea i read that alot but im scared of the dht. Hairloss is something i am scared of lol. I did a tbol and androhard stack last month and dosed the androhard at 2.5 instead of the full 5ml. A little shed but nothing bad. very minimal. Anything else to stack andromass with besides androhard? i have androlean but i rather run that 6-8weeks at full dose alone.
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If you stocked up on some turinabol lv or even dermacrine might do that trick to combat lethargy and work well in a stack, but it all depends on your goals.
 
chocolatemilk said:
lol^

twistid, another important factor into making a compound valuable or not is the "quality" of muscle that it builds. The amount of keep-able lean tissue after a cycle says more about a compound than the amount of lean tissue it can put on during the cycle... at least IMO. I now value compounds in which I keep the gains post-cycle over compounds which gains are amazing on cycle but hard to hold on to.

I wonder what keeping gains will be like on Andromass...
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Compared to methylated compounds, the gains from AndroMass will be more retainable.

The 17-methyls tend to induce pretty rapid intracellar ion retention, which lend to the immediate "fullness" which is rapidly lost after the cycle. (superdrol)

-Eric
 
jbryand101b said:
4 weeks of sd @ 20mg e/d + pct would cost me 70$ plus s&h. just saying.

but im not the average user either.

didn't want to point this out, but since no one is researching it, 1-testosterone is known for a host of cardiovascular side effects, including enlarged liver & increased triglyceride count.
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I'm not familiar with increased cardiovascular risk with 1-test, and the research that is available was unable to find any signs of liver toxicity despite enlargement of the liver. FYI, most natural androgens enlarge the organs, it just was not demonstrated in that study in regards to testosterone -

17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one (1-testosterone) is a potent androgen with anabolic properties.
Friedel A, et al.
Toxicol Lett. 2006 Aug 20;165(2):149-55. Epub 2006 Apr 18.




jbryand101b said:
also, im curious, I saw someone from pp post that the dione would have ar binding ability. I wasn't aware of this. I know diol's are able to bind to the ar, though much weaker without the 3-ketone, could someone point in to some data discussing dione's binding to the ar.
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The intrinsic potency of androstenediol and androstenedione is 73/100 and 52/100, respectively -- compared to testosterone. (at the concentrations we are achieving with the AndroSeries products)

We derived that data from these studies -


Partial agonist/antagonist properties of androstenedione and 4-androsten-3beta,17beta-diol.
Chen Fet al.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2004 Aug;91(4-5):247-57.

In vitro bioassays for androgens and their diagnostic applications.
Roy et al.
Hum Reprod Update. 2008 Jan-Feb;14(1):73-82. Epub 2007 Dec 4.

Determination of androgen bioactivity in human serum samples using a recombinant cell based in vitro bioassay.
Roy et al.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Sep; 101(1):68-77. Epub 2006 Aug 8.

Circulating bioactive androgens in midlife women.
Chen et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Nov;91(11):4387-94. Epub 2006 Aug 29.


Then we reconciled those values with the vida. For instance, vida shows an average of 40.5 for androstenedione on the levator ani (anabolic) compared to testosterone (100 ref stand.)

Since we know the conversion rate of Androstenedione --> Testosterone is about 7.5% in a biological environment we did the following calculation -


Testosterone = 100 anabolic activity (AA) value

100mg androstenedione – 7.5% testosterone conversion = 92.5mg of remaining androstenedione & 7.5mg testosterone.

7.5mg of testosterone = 7.5mg of testosterone for AA

40.5mg of AA (vida) – 7.5mg of AA from testosterone = 33mg of AA derived from 92.5mg of androstenedione

92.5mg of androstenedione = 33mg of testosterone for AA

33mg/92.5mg = 0.36​

In other words, the vida suggests that androstenedione is 36% as potent as testosterone WITHOUT conversion, but that is a conservative calculation because its not factoring conjugation and collateral weakening of androstenedione's potency. Actual intrinsic value is probably higher, like the modern bio-assay data suggests.


For those who want to dig deeper, Ive attached our notes on the calculations from these above referenced studies -


jbryand101b said:
I haven't looked too much into androsterone, but I wasn't aware it had ar activity either that would label it as being "more androgenic". I know it converts into dht, which is as active as the dht converted from 5a reduced test.

I personally dont think dht would be needed with 1-test/test combo, but I've yet to run this, so I really have no idea.
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Overall, androsterone is more androgenic than DHEA. It may have some intrinsic value on its own, or it may be because its more immediate androgenic metabolites.

-Eric
 
halfhuman said:
Yea i read that alot but im scared of the dht. Hairloss is something i am scared of lol. I did a tbol and androhard stack last month and dosed the androhard at 2.5 instead of the full 5ml. A little shed but nothing bad. very minimal. Anything else to stack andromass with besides androhard? i have androlean but i rather run that 6-8weeks at full dose alone.
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If you want to try and avoid lethargy you can bring your dose down to 2x2 on AndroMass and stack it with 2x2 of the AndroLean.

Granted, you wont gain as much weight on this stack with the thermogenic properties of the AndroLean, but it will be very clean gains.

-Eric
 
jbryand101b said:
well, it's more similar to ams's 1-ad & 4-ad than the old ergopharm's 1-ad/4-ad thats for sure.

I wish it wasn't expensive, i'd def like to actually try this stuff. but I can buy 4-androstenediol & m1t for cheaper.

(def not as safe, but hey, 4-diol + m1t, your gonna blow the fcuk up!)
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Ah bull*hit... you know andromass is closer to the original 1-AD and 4-AD... maybe even better.
 
Primordial Perf said:
If you want to try and avoid lethargy you can bring your dose down to 2x2 on AndroMass and stack it with 2x2 of the AndroLean.

Granted, you wont gain as much weight on this stack with the thermogenic properties of the AndroLean, but it will be very clean gains.

-Eric
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This is what I will be doing:afro:....CANT WAIT!!!!!:aargh:
 
HATEFULone said:
If you stocked up on some turinabol lv or even dermacrine might do that trick to combat lethargy and work well in a stack, but it all depends on your goals.
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I should have stocked up but didn't. I have one bottle of the old Androhard but again i dont want to risk the DHT being risen again. I just got off a tbol and androhard cycle last month. Only shedded a little but rather stay away.
 
Primordial Perf said:
If you want to try and avoid lethargy you can bring your dose down to 2x2 on AndroMass and stack it with 2x2 of the AndroLean.

Granted, you wont gain as much weight on this stack with the thermogenic properties of the AndroLean, but it will be very clean gains.

-Eric
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Yea thats wat i dont want lol. I want to see wat AM does at full dose alone and the same with the AL. Thats why i dont want to stack them. Is a Pre-workout fine? but thats only when lethargy is high if i dont feel it to bad than i wont
 
halfhuman said:
I should have stocked up but didn't. I have one bottle of the old Androhard but again i dont want to risk the DHT being risen again. I just got off a tbol and androhard cycle last month. Only shedded a little but rather stay away.
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DHT will definitely be on the rise with the new androhard, I can only assume that it will be harsher on the hairline than the original, but that is based on the fact it will be much stronger mg for mg than the original, however until real world results come out that is just an assumption. Toco-8 has helped some people, but if you are prone to mpb, and you don't want to risk it, I'd stay away from androhard.
 
halfhuman said:
Yea thats wat i dont want lol. I want to see wat AM does at full dose alone and the same with the AL. Thats why i dont want to stack them. Is a Pre-workout fine? but thats only when lethargy is high if i dont feel it to bad than i wont
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A preworkout is fine assuming you are not having any bp issues. You shouldn't, but it still smart to watch out for.
 
HATEFULone said:
DHT will definitely be on the rise with the new androhard, I can only assume that it will be harsher on the hairline than the original, but that is based on the fact it will be much stronger mg for mg than the original, however until real world results come out that is just an assumption. Toco-8 has helped some people, but if you are prone to mpb, and you don't want to risk it, I'd stay away from androhard.
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Exactly. I always dose toco 8 year round especially during cycle and pct. I'll wait to see others results on the AH.
 
HereToStudy said:
A preworkout is fine assuming you are not having any bp issues. You shouldn't, but it still smart to watch out for.
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I will be taking Milk thistle before AM and during cycle i will take cycle support just in case and for the other health benefits.
 
Primordial Perf said:
Ah bull*hit... you know andromass is closer to the original 1-AD and 4-AD... maybe even better.
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i was comparing it in terms of ams's products are 1-dhea & 4-dhea with a different delivery system than pp's.

ergopharms were 1-androstenediol & 4-androstenediol

also for me, andromass is closer to ams's products because it is 1-dhea & 4-dhea, just with a different delivery system than what ams is shooting for.

I do believe the availability will be enhanced with these compounds, but I have no idea how much better they will be than other dhea isomer products.

if you'd like to send me a box of andromass to compare, i'll gladly do so :D


and what happened with the 19nor dhea that was going to be in andro mass?
 
jbryand101b said:
i was comparing it in terms of ams's products are 1-dhea & 4-dhea with a different delivery system than pp's.

ergopharms were 1-androstenediol & 4-androstenediol

also for me, andromass is closer to ams's products because it is 1-dhea & 4-dhea, just with a different delivery system than what ams is shooting for.

I do believe the availability will be enhanced with these compounds, but I have no idea how much better they will be than other dhea isomer products.

if you'd like to send me a box of andromass to compare, i'll gladly do so :D


and what happened with the 19nor dhea that was going to be in andro mass?
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They couldn't find someone to formulate it correctly.
 
Hmmm
 
Ive heard of Phera.. After my 1test cycle and the ban in 2004 I thought all prohormones were gone and not untill 2009 did I discover they were still making Ph's. Yes, I did not have internet access untill then.... Anyways, Phera is one that I wished I had not missed.

So many new options and choices to stack with the Androseries, since its virtually sides free. Primordial Performance's Turinabol with Andromass=awesome. Epi with Andromass=awesome. Phera with Andromass=awesome. Superdrone for the 1st 2 weeks would be interesting.
 
rulk22 said:
Ive heard of Phera.. After my 1test cycle and the ban in 2004 I thought all prohormones were gone and not untill 2009 did I discover they were still making Ph's. Yes, I did not have internet access untill then.... Anyways, Phera is one that I wished I had not missed.

So many new options and choices to stack with the Androseries, since its virtually sides free. Primordial Performance's Turinabol with Andromass=awesome. Epi with Andromass=awesome. Phera with Andromass=awesome. Superdrone for the 1st 2 weeks would be interesting.
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I'm actually planning on running a Androhard and Epi cycle sometime this spring. Then wait 6 wks and do a cut with Hdrol and Androlean. But some great ideas i've never read to much on Phera what's it like.
 
i love phera i would always blow up in 20lbs+
 
NADDANME said:
I'm actually planning on running a Androhard and Epi cycle sometime this spring. Then wait 6 wks and do a cut with Hdrol and Androlean. But some great ideas i've never read to much on Phera what's it like.
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Ive heard Phera was good for mass and strength and a little light on sides. Lots of people loved it and was a favorite of many. Phera with Andromass would be no joke. If using Sdol with Andromass id only run it for the 1st 2 weeks in the begining of a cycle.
 
Ya any of these strong orals can be stacked with the Androseries. I would just run them 4 and whatever product from the AndroSeries I would extend out to 6.
 
ryansm said:
Ya any of these strong orals can be stacked with the Androseries. I would just run them 4 and whatever product from the AndroSeries I would extend out to 6.
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How do you think it would effect the dosing. I was thinking of running the Epi at half the dose i would if running solo. So about 20 mg. Then the Androhard at 2x2 for 6wks.
 
NADDANME said:
How do you think it would effect the dosing. I was thinking of running the Epi at half the dose i would if running solo. So about 20 mg. Then the Androhard at 2x2 for 6wks.
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Seems like a solid cycle, you'd be able to stretch out the 1 bottle of androhard that way too. I've only done epi solo before, I liked it. I'm glad you are cutting down your dosages on both, that stack would annihilate estrogen at full doses of each.
 
I kinda prefer the idea of running the Androseries without any of the harsh methyls. The main advantage of the Andro's is the safety profile (liver and heart, specifically). Why negate that by introducing methyls? Unless, of course, the Andro's turn out to be ineffective. Then why buy them at all? Either they work as advertised, or they don't. Let's find out...
 
ImJ2x said:
I kinda prefer the idea of running the Androseries without any of the harsh methyls. The main advantage of the Andro's is the safety profile (liver and heart, specifically). Why negate that by introducing methyls? Unless, of course, the Andro's turn out to be ineffective. Then why buy them at all? Either they work as advertised, or they don't. Let's find out...
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Good point, i mean if you don't care about the toxicity then just buy superdrol for $20-$30 right..
 
ImJ2x said:
I kinda prefer the idea of running the Androseries without any of the harsh methyls. The main advantage of the Andro's is the safety profile (liver and heart, specifically). Why negate that by introducing methyls? Unless, of course, the Andro's turn out to be ineffective. Then why buy them at all? Either they work as advertised, or they don't. Let's find out...
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Excellent post, reps for you :thumbsup:
 
Ok I've been reading up on androlean some, seems like rosie is going to be taking it, any other females planning on taking it? This may seem wrong, but I really don't care, I am thinking of sneaking my gf some androlean, telling her its fish oil or something. She has been putting on some weight and not in the right places.
 
HATEFULone said:
Ok I've been reading up on androlean some, seems like rosie is going to be taking it, any other females planning on taking it? This may seem wrong, but I really don't care, I am thinking of sneaking my gf some androlean, telling her its fish oil or something. She has been putting on some weight and not in the right places.
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WOW I see a law suit coming out of that one:stick:
 
ImJ2x said:
I kinda prefer the idea of running the Androseries without any of the harsh methyls. The main advantage of the Andro's is the safety profile (liver and heart, specifically). Why negate that by introducing methyls? Unless, of course, the Andro's turn out to be ineffective. Then why buy them at all? Either they work as advertised, or they don't. Let's find out...
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I don't disagree,but i already have a partial bottle of Epi and got Hdrol really cheap. I think that it will still be much easier on my liver running 20mg for a few weeks. Then running 40 or 50 for the sametime. Also a hell of alot cheaper than AndroHard and AndroMass. I've run Epi before and liked it. If this works then i'll have time to stock up before it's gone. I think i'll still be able to tell if i like the Androhard because the Epi is such a low dose.
 
Might try AndroHard and AndroLean stack after all.
 
HATEFULone said:
Ok I've been reading up on androlean some, seems like rosie is going to be taking it, any other females planning on taking it? This may seem wrong, but I really don't care, I am thinking of sneaking my gf some androlean, telling her its fish oil or something. She has been putting on some weight and not in the right places.
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Yeah-- megadose her. (Secretly, of course.) Maybe she'll grow balls and kick your ass.
 
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