Terrorism anyone?

[YellowJacket]

Bro you deleted a post where I said:


HA HA HA this thread is FUNNY ****.

I seem to agree with about every OTHER post I WONDER why that is.

What is wrong with that???

I think you are getting too personal, but this is MY opinon OK???

And I also deleted the other one where you said "I agree with everyone who doesnt have their heads shoved up their ass" Why is this thread funny? It was intended as a joke? Oooh! I know you're trying to be a smartass, sorry I didnt catch on.

 

[Sir Savage]

Well if he cant and doesnt have the athority to prevent it in America, how the hell's he going to do it in other countries? By threatenening them? No one takes this dumbass serious anymore, he's all talk.

He's the Commander In Chief of the armed forces, so he can help prevent attacks and such through the use of military force.

So other countries dont have the right to be pissed at him and the US? Scroll back up and look at the number of lives we've taken, you expect other countries to sit there and take it because we're the "supreme dominate country" At least the Al Queda is doing something to make the playing field fair.

Other countries have a right to be pissed off all they want, but that doesn't mean their feelings are justified.

As for the number of lives we've taken, they have all been for what we felt at the time was a good reason. In the case of Vietnam, our aim was to stop the spread of Communism, and thus, stop oppression. Did we make mistakes? Sure. Did some of our soldiers act less than soldierly? Of course. However, all of our mistakes were made with good intentions, and we've never done anything like Al Qaida has done.

Al Qaida made the playing field fair? How so? By blind siding us and killing thousands?

Every time we've invaded a country its been pointless and all for not, jsut got a few hundred troops killed here and there, no big deal, he doesnt care, its not his life.

What is one time that we invaded a country, for truly no reason?

If we were truly thriving and successful, we wouldnt be trying to step on other countries for petty reasons. The reason we are doing well is BECAUSE of those other countries that provide us with the necessities we need to live and what do we give them in return? Some products and a couple missles.

We're not trying to step on other countries. We are trying to protect our citizens and maintain some stability of the global economy, of which, we are all a part of.

Other countries don't give us necessities to live. I'd say that's a pretty inaccurate description of our part in the global economy. If anything, we give others the necessities to live. The companies in our economy probably make more contributions to the world than most other economies combined. Add to that, the fact that our government gives out billions in foreign aid to help other countries.

Whos to say we wont misues them? And if we did say that, who would stop us? No one. We're the big dog of the world and we want it to be known, thats lame. Who's to judge a radical goverment? I think our government is radical? Everyone is so blind by what they here on television and what theyre being told by our goverment.

Have we misused them yet? Nope. Why wouldn't we? We don't have a government bent on destroying another civilization.

LoL...theres a hundred countries that are Anti-US. Even the UN is backing out, everyone's tired of our ****. Tired of our desperation to get back the respect we lost when we lost the Trade Centers. Get over it, they got the better of us. End of story. If anyting it should open the goverment's eyes to listen to them. That was the whole point anyways. Instead of listening, Bush is out to kill more people, like a 6 year old on the playground. You're not going to win the world's favortism by bombing and raiding them

Yes, there are many that are anti-U.S. to an extent, but nothing like Iraq and a few others. They are not as extreme. The main problem lies with extremist regimes such as Iraq, North Korea, and extremist organizations, such as Al Qaida.

And there are MANY other countries that care about this situation and want to see Saddam gone. We live in a world economy now, so if we get fucked up, everyone gets fucked up. That, if nothing else, has many countries on our side.

Yes, they got the best of us that one instance. But how hard is it to get the "best" of someone when you blind side them??

And what a great job he's doing. "If they dont agree with us, we'll just kill some of their people and threaten their rights and ability to defend themselves"

I think it's more like "If they threaten us, we will use force against them." Nobody is taking away anybody's right to defend themselves. North Korea has a good military, and is very capable of defending itself.

So uhhh......any idea why we have them?

Yes, we developed them and used them so we would not have to invade Japan in WWII and face hundreds of thousands of more casualties. Since that point, we have had them, and developed them further, mostly due to the communist, Soviet threat of the Cold War.

This nation is still weak, always will be. Bush keeps making enemies for us and we'll have to reap the concenquesnces of HIS actions and thats bullshit. Thats what this lovely goverment is doing for us all. We elected Gore and got Bush and look what he's doing for us? We're living in fear because of that piece of ****. Congrats if you voted for him, you've fucked us all.

The only way we are weak is that the commoner is ignorant. Granted, that is a big weakness. And we wonder why the government takes away our freedoms.

Anyway, Bush isn't making anymore enemies than we didn't already have. These people have hated us for a long time, for absurd reasons.

I'm very happy that Gore didn't win. That's all we need is another idiot liberal in the white house. The terrorists wouldn't need to sneak into the country to perform their deeds, Gore would invite them into the Whitehouse to have fucking coffee!

And even though I am basically a Libertarian, I loathe Harry Brown. He's so soft on terrorism it's disgusting.

So yes, I voted for Bush, because he was the lesser of three evils. Turns out, because of the circumstances we are now in, he's the right man for the job.

 

[Sir Savage]

YJ I really have to agree with you.

In the last century the US has really messed its self up.  We've concerened our selves with foreign matters while allowing our country to go to hell.  Right now were throwing sh*t at Afghan and Iraq claiming they are dangerous and worthy of war but not to long ago we were praising these countires and **** over weapons by the shipful in our war againsts the commies and other countries.  Had we never got involved in Iran or felt like arming the Taliban to fight the Soviets we wouldn't have these problems to clean up.

How has our country "gone to hell"?? Yes, we praised those countries, because, at the time, they were the lesser of two evils. But because we employed Afghan rebels, the Soviets were driven out, and the empire collapsed soon after. Mistake? Dunno. Like I said, lesser of two evils.

Also, about the same time, Iran had gone through that whole Islamic revolution thing. Remember the U.S. Embassy? Yeah. So picking between the lesser of two evils again. Iraq over Iran.

It's so easy to look back now and say "We were stupid." But what was the alternative? There are no easy choices.

Also if we wished to imporve the quality of life in the US, statistically terrorism would be a very low priority.  But no one gets political prestige from improving health, controlling alcohol and smoking, or making safer auto transportation, they get it from bombing the hell our of country just to waste a few $bil. and create a few a new enemies.

It is apparent to me, from this passage, that you have very little knowledge of politics. Politicians get prestige anytime they "save" the public from a "threat". That can be from outside the country, or inside the country. It can be health related, etc. Does the prohormone bill mean anything to you? A couple of Congressmen are attempting to "save the children" with their anti-prohormone bill. This gives them prestige among the people they represent, because they are ignorant and truly believe these reps. have saved their kids from a dangerous threat.

How does the goverment improve the quality of life in a capitalistic society?? It's free enterprise, a free economy. YOU improve your quality of life through hard work and achievement.

 

[Sir Savage]

Christ, have I really been debating for over two hours?? Damn, I must go work out now.

 

[YellowJacket]

He's the Commander In Chief of the armed forces, so he can help prevent attacks and such through the use of military force.

Yes and put his ass on a plane and fly him over there to fight and I think his mind would change real quick.

As for the number of lives we've taken, they have all been for what we felt at the time was a good reason. In the case of Vietnam, our aim was to stop the spread of Communism, and thus, stop oppression. Did we make mistakes? Sure. Did some of our soldiers act less than soldierly? Of course. However, all of our mistakes were made with good intentions, and we've never done anything like Al Qaida has done.

First off NOTHING justifies taking another person's life. No one on this earth can do that and get away with it. A good reason to take someone's life, thats hilarious. There's no such thing as a good reason to kill someone. Those dirty fuckers killed 1,000's of Americans, nothing justifies that, but it served its purpose. Its pretty shitty a country has to kill that many people just to be listened to huh?

Al Qaida made the playing field fair? How so? By blind siding us and killing thousands?

The playing field is fair now because we think about what we do everyday. Americans now value their lives more than ever. We pay attention to petty countries because we now see what they're capable of. We've oppressed so many countries for so long, maybe times are changing?

What is one time that we invaded a country, for truly no reason?

I'll give you a few. How many times have we went into a country and set up shop to prepare to raid a boarding country? a shitload of times. How many countries do we have "bases" in now to prepare for attack? Many. And if they dont let us in their country to set up bases, they better fear for their lives huh? No one questions or contradicts America by god, you'll feel the wrath of George Bush

We're not trying to step on other countries. We are trying to protect our citizens and maintain some stability of the global economy, of which, we are all a part of.

But dont you see? By taking these steps, there's psycho's out there in planes ready to crash into buildings. Bush is killing off his own country by trying to prove himself.

Other countries don't give us necessities to live. I'd say that's a pretty inaccurate description of our part in the global economy. If anything, we give others the necessities to live. The companies in our economy probably make more contributions to the world than most other economies combined. Add to that, the fact that our government gives out billions in foreign aid to help other countries.

Whoa! So we dont get foods, oils, automobiles, soliders, etc from other countries, could have fooled me.

Have we misused them yet? Nope. Why wouldn't we? We don't have a government bent on destroying another civilization.

Oh we havent misused them? What about all those tests we've ran to test our nukes out aye? The Barbi Islands will be a wasteland for 30,000 more years. What about when we nuked Japan? I thought you said earlier a country can defend itself without the use of nukes? Guess we cant. We have a goverment bent on letting everyone know we're in charge.

Yes, there are many that are anti-U.S. to an extent, but nothing like Iraq and a few others. They are not as extreme. The main problem lies with extremist regimes such as Iraq, North Korea, and extremist organizations, such as Al Qaida.

Another double standard. Your critical of other countries who do the same ignorant **** as we do. What gives us the right to do it and not them? Try to see this beyond what you hear on TV and beyond YOUR best interest.

Yes, they got the best of us that one instance. But how hard is it to get the "best" of someone when you blind side them??

I wouldnt say "blind side" we had it coming. The US government knew of Bin Laden, and didnt do anything about him, so their own ingorance cost a lot of American's their lives. And besides, what do you expect Afghanistan to do? I doubt we'll let them make missles or plans to do anything on their own.

I think it's more like "If they threaten us, we will use force against them." Nobody is taking away anybody's right to defend themselves. North Korea has a good military, and is very capable of defending itself.

Against who? We have the greatest Military in the world, why do we have to make nukes? Surely not for shits and giggles. I think us having nukes is jsut to say we do, so other countries will fear us. N. Korea is just lelveling the playing field by having some of their own, nothing wrong with that.

Yes, we developed them and used them so we would not have to invade Japan in WWII and face hundreds of thousands of more casualties. Since that point, we have had them, and developed them further, mostly due to the communist, Soviet threat of the Cold War.

We used nukes to kill thousands upon thousands of people, why cant Korea use them to get what they need done done? Oh wait another double standard. Its ok for us to do it, but no one else.

The only way we are weak is that the commoner is ignorant. Granted, that is a big weakness. And we wonder why the government takes away our freedoms.

Just the beginning of communism my friend.

Anyway, Bush isn't making anymore enemies than we didn't already have. These people have hated us for a long time, for absurd reasons.

Not true. Everyone is sick of our ****. We're constantly wanting war with someone and expecting to be backed up EVERY time. Thats bullshit.

I'm very happy that Gore didn't win. That's all we need is another idiot liberal in the white house. The terrorists wouldn't need to sneak into the country to perform their deeds, Gore would invite them into the Whitehouse to have fucking coffee!

Tell me this, how many terrorist attacks occured on America when Clinton was president? None. Maybe we need him back. Maybe he'd do his job. And the terrorists obviously had no trouble sneaking as Bush is our leader although he knew of the Al Queda's activity, just neglected to do anything, probably had a hunting trip or something that weekend, oh well, he and his family are ok, thats all that matters.

So yes, I voted for Bush, because he was the lesser of three evils. Turns out, because of the circumstances we are now in, he's the right man for the job.

What a great job he's doing. Indirectly killing his own people. We should all praise him

 

[YellowJacket]

**** it, Life's too short to be told what to do all your life. Im from WV, Im already in the negative. Capitalism suppresses my options in life bcause I come from a low income family, thats bad enough. Then I have to pay a fine for not wearing a seatbelt while driving MY car. When does it end? It doesnt until the day you die. People got created equal to you, rule YOUR Life. They tell YOU what to do and you will do it, whether you want to or not. **** that, you can have your petty country and its powertriping government. ****, wont even be able to use pro hormones in a month or 2, why? **** it, why not! Something else to restrict in this country to insure you're not enjoying life.

 

[DarCSA]

This thread has progressed with amazing speed and thought. I have to say our president is not like the great leaders of the distant past. Leaders, kings, and emperors of the past used to fight side by side with their troops. They even led them into battle. Their purpose was to rally and spur the troops into a winning spirit of unconditional surrender. I know that we must act as a global cooperative now, so we must deal with the feelings of other countries in this horrible transgression. In acting globally we need to take into account the actions of others as we dwell on this problem. We need to hear both sides of the story whether we believe what they have to say or not. We now have to consider a war on two fronts besides the Iraqi problem. North Korea is no laughing matter either. They have the possible backing of the Chinese government. This is a time of concern and deep thought in the history of our nation. We should proceed with caution into these endeavors. We are a strong nation with a head strong population. We need to look at this with great concern and an open mind. Our nation is not in peril but standing once again on the brink of political and social greatness. The mind is our greatest ally in going into this war if we must have it. Fear is not an option. Like the British Prime Minister said be prepared for the backlash if you do not stand with us. We are ready for the fight and we are going to whoop some ass so be ready you have been forewarned.

 

[pjorstad]

You know if it was up to me id fucking drop a hydrogen bomb on all the major cities in iraq and north korea and china all at one instance just so they get the message

That truly is the only way to solve. But because bush is gonna be a wussy about things and let things get out of control like wussy clinton and wussy Bush Sr we are gonna have a lot ofproblems on are hands in the future.

 

[YellowJacket]

You know if it was up to me id fucking drop a hydrogen bomb on all the major cities in iraq and north korea and china all at one instance just so they get the message

That why it will never be up to you. Once a bomb like that is dropped in this day and age, WW3 is inevitable and the world WILL come to an end. This isnt even a consideration. But I agree that Bush either needs to put up or shut up. Quit threatening countrys, do something or keep your fuckin mouth shut

 

[CROWLER]

That why it will never be up to you. Once a bomb like that is dropped in this day and age, WW3 is inevitable and the world WILL come to an end. This isnt even a consideration. But I agree that Bush either needs to put up or shut up. Quit threatening countrys, do something or keep your fuckin mouth shut

Ok so since you are a mod you can tell a member to keep your fuckin mouth shut.

But I can not say "I agree with everyone who doesnt have their heads shoved up their ass" or you will delete it???

Why I did NOT direct this at anyone.

Your post was directly at a member.

What is up with that sensorship???

 

[pjorstad]

Heh your right i just thought about it and realized that somehow they will manage to sneek some atomic bombs backon us or some other country might get pissed.

 

[Matthew D]

Crowler go back and reread YJ last post... he was saying that Bush needs to either shut up with the threats or do it.. not pjorstad

 

[CROWLER]

Crowler go back and reread YJ last post... he was saying that Bush needs to either shut up with the threats or do it.. not pjorstad

OOPs he says as he whipes the egg off his face.

BTW who keeps giving me Karma on my posts.

I don't mind it but is there any way to find out.

Heh I think I actually got some on the posts that got deleted.

 

[YellowJacket]

Ok so since you are a mod you can tell a member to keep your fuckin mouth shut.

But I can not say "I agree with everyone who doesnt have their heads shoved up their ass" or you will delete it???

Why I did NOT direct this at anyone.

Your post was directly at a member.

What is up with that sensorship???

Umm....yea. Go back and re-read that drama queen and its actually Censorship.

 

[YellowJacket]

AH Y/J you aren't still made at me about the ginger root post are ya bro.

Come on life is too short to get upset it's only a BB forum bro.

You gotta role with the smack talk or you'll be old before your time

Take the example of Bean he doesn't take it personal. RELAX

Ummm.... I dont take it personal "bro". Like I said, I started this thread for shits and giggles and if anyone takes it personal, thats your problem not the bees

 

[pjorstad]

Haha this thead is a perfect example of the fact that ROID rage and post cycle FEMININE EMOTIONS(due to anti-estrogens and lowered test) is in fact TRUE.

 

[YellowJacket]

Haha this thead is a perfect example of the fact that ROID rage and post cycle FEMININE EMOTIONS(due to anti-estrogens and lowered test) is in fact TRUE.

Please explain this one....Im lost.

 

[CROWLER]

Haha this thead is a perfect example of the fact that ROID rage and post cycle FEMININE EMOTIONS(due to anti-estrogens and lowered test) is in fact TRUE.

BRO YOU are Correct sir.

 

[YellowJacket]

Christ man, you need some Valium, you talk way too much and you're turning this thread into useless post whoring.

 

[Bean]

Anyone who wants anarchy is foolish IMO. Less strict government fine; but anarchy- yea right.

hell yeah...

Most people who want anarchy have absolutely no conception of how it really could be

 

[YellowJacket]

hell yeah...

Most people who want anarchy have absolutely no conception of how it really could be

Thats exactly right. And those morbid, mediocre citizens who do everything they're told by the government have no idea either. With all the restrictions placed on people these days, no one knows what it would be like to be free and do what you want.

 

[Bean]

Thats exactly right. And those morbid, mediocre citizens who do everything they're told by the government have no idea either. With all the restrictions placed on people these days, no one knows what it would be like to be free and do what you want.

I'm free to do a lot of things that i can't in another country

Although being here and being an avid poster in the roid forum is plenty of proof i don't believe everything the government tells me... but you sir are taking it to an extreme amount... you don't believe ANYTHING from OUR government; but seems like you take info from every other government with open arms...

Anarchy is what humanity was all about before the major civs started popping up and evolving... You don't have a concept of anarchy because there hasn't been one in your lifetime nor ever will be. Its only our imaginations on how it could be and I think you're going on the bit extreme side

With anarchy you wouldn't be posting on this forum right now... with anarchy roids as they are known about now would not exists.... with anarchy the bodybuilding community would not exist and most of us wouldn't know a damn thing about it...

with anarchy there is no law and there is no social order; without that social order the many things that YOU and I take for granted would not exist... can you imagine not being able to take a **** inside a bathroom but going to an outhouse? ever had to do that? i have and it sucks...
do you actually believe people would ban together in a world full of anarchy? sure they would; they would ban together to form communities; which would form together to become nations/civilizations... and those nations would have GOVERNMENTS just like we have now...

yup i'm talking in circles; but i'm sure you can see how it goes i think governments like this are just natural evolution... anarchy isn't... there may be evolution of the body but not of the mind in anarchy (that whole survival of the fittest thing which you seem to be a full believer)

 

[Sir Savage]

Yes and put his ass on a plane and fly him over there to fight and I think his mind would change real quick. [/b]

I'm sure he would do just that if he could be of any help, but he is not a trained soldier. It is not a job delegated to him. His job, among others, is to be the top commander of the military, NOT participate. He, nor any of our presidents, enjoyed or made the decision lightly to go to war (and actually, that's not even a power of the president). It's never a pleasant thing when deaths occur.

We have an all volunteer military force. Those guys and gals knew exactly what the military was for when they signed up; they knew there was a chance that something could happen, and they would have to go to war. They accepted this fact when they enlisted. There is no dilusion here. They signed up to fight for our country.

First off NOTHING justifies taking another person's life. No one on this earth can do that and get away with it. A good reason to take someone's life, thats hilarious. There's no such thing as a good reason to kill someone. Those dirty fuckers killed 1,000's of Americans, nothing justifies that, but it served its purpose. Its pretty shitty a country has to kill that many people just to be listened to huh?

Nothing justifies it? What about self-defense? Isn't defending your national interests self-defense? If something threatens the lives or well-being of a government's citizens, then they are justified to protect them by whatever means necessary. This is very unfortunate, but, occasionally it gets to this point. But, the one provoking the action, in this case Iraq and/or terrorists, is to blame.

The playing field is fair now because we think about what we do everyday. Americans now value their lives more than ever. We pay attention to petty countries because we now see what they're capable of. We've oppressed so many countries for so long, maybe times are changing?

The playing field isn't fair, nor will it ever be, with those kind of actions. How can an organization commit an atrocity such as that, and run back into hiding? That's not very fair, is it?

And we have not oppressed countries. We promote capitalism and democracy. I fail to see how we oppress when we promote freedom.

I'll give you a few. How many times have we went into a country and set up shop to prepare to raid a boarding country? a shitload of times. How many countries do we have "bases" in now to prepare for attack? Many. And if they dont let us in their country to set up bases, they better fear for their lives huh? No one questions or contradicts America by god, you'll feel the wrath of George Bush

Who says those bases are necessarily for attack? Sure, if the need arose, they would be used for attack, but did it ever occur that maybe those bases are there because the people of the respective countries want them there? Prince Sultan AirBase is in Saudi Arabia because the Saudis want their borders protected.

If the governments of those nations did not want us there, we would not be there. And we would not bomb them just because they didn't want us there.

But dont you see? By taking these steps, there's psycho's out there in planes ready to crash into buildings. Bush is killing off his own country by trying to prove himself.

Bush is not responsible for the actions of irrational extremists who have no regard for human life. Personal responsibility. You take responsibility for your own actions.

Bush may be making more extremists mad by taking a hardline approach to terrorism, but what's the alternative? Ignoring it? Talking it out? No, they want to kill us, kill the "Great Satan". Unfortunately, what it's basically come down to, is us or them.

Whoa! So we dont get foods, oils, automobiles, soliders, etc from other countries, could have fooled me.

Some, yes, but who has the biggest economy in the world, with the exception of Hong Kong and Japan, and therefore, the most productive companies? We do.

Oh we havent misused them? What about all those tests we've ran to test our nukes out aye? The Barbi Islands will be a wasteland for 30,000 more years. What about when we nuked Japan? I thought you said earlier a country can defend itself without the use of nukes? Guess we cant. We have a goverment bent on letting everyone know we're in charge.

Sure, we've misused them. As I said, we've made mistakes. We were the first to develop and test the bomb, so we found out, firsthand, exactly why others SHOULDN'T develop them.

Yes, a country can defend itself without a nuke. We did just fine defending ourselves after Pearl Harbor, and so did Japan. We used the bomb to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of our men. Us or them. So much for our administrations not caring about our soldiers.

Another double standard. Your critical of other countries who do the same ignorant **** as we do. What gives us the right to do it and not them?

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

I wouldnt say "blind side" we had it coming. The US government knew of Bin Laden, and didnt do anything about him, so their own ingorance cost a lot of American's their lives. And besides, what do you expect Afghanistan to do? I doubt we'll let them make missles or plans to do anything on their own.

Something was bound to happen sooner or later, but we didn't "have it coming". It was an atrocity, and for what? What did they prove? That they're raving lunatics who have no regard for the lives of others?

Against who? We have the greatest Military in the world, why do we have to make nukes? Surely not for shits and giggles. I think us having nukes is jsut to say we do, so other countries will fear us. N. Korea is just lelveling the playing field by having some of their own, nothing wrong with that.

What do you mean, against who? You made a statement to the effect of "we are taking away the powers of others to defend themselves", and I said no we're not, N. Korea can defend itself just fine without nukes.

We have a stockpile of nukes, but I'm not sure that we manufacture anymore.

There is something wrong with N. Korea having nukes, because they are anti-U.S., and extreme. Nukes+extremists=bad news.

We used nukes to kill thousands upon thousands of people, why cant Korea use them to get what they need done done? Oh wait another double standard. Its ok for us to do it, but no one else.

Dude, please tell me you didn't just say this. We used a nuke, and BTW, a very weak nuke compared to today's nukes, to end a very long, very serious, and very costly war. We wanted to end it without having to lose anymore of our boys.

WTF does N. Korea need to use a nuke for???? They don't. There is no war where the fate of the world hangs in the balance, like there was when we used it.

Just the beginning of communism my friend.

Probably true.

Not true. Everyone is sick of our ****. We're constantly wanting war with someone and expecting to be backed up EVERY time. Thats bullshit.

If everyone is sick of our ****, then why are they backing us if Saddam does not comply?

When have we ever gone and started a war just to start a war?

Tell me this, how many terrorist attacks occured on America when Clinton was president? None. Maybe we need him back. Maybe he'd do his job. And the terrorists obviously had no trouble sneaking as Bush is our leader although he knew of the Al Queda's activity, just neglected to do anything, probably had a hunting trip or something that weekend, oh well, he and his family are ok, thats all that matters.

There may have been terrorist attacks, we just may not know of them. We rarely hear of the ones that are thwarted

Clinton had an oppurtunity to bring Bin Ladin in from the Sudanese, but he DECLINED, stating that there was not enough evidence. Maybe he was too busy getting it on with interns to see how important this issue was.

They didn't sneak in BECAUSE Bush is our president. They snuck in because of past intelligence failures that Bush INHERITED when he took over the presidency. He had been president for only a short period of time.

What a great job he's doing. Indirectly killing his own people. We should all praise him

What's better, taking a hardline approach to terrorism and fighting it, or letting them kill us? I'd prefer the former.

 

[Sir Savage]

Haha this thead is a perfect example of the fact that ROID rage and post cycle FEMININE EMOTIONS(due to anti-estrogens and lowered test) is in fact TRUE.

I'll have you know I'm off androgens for now.

Now I'm going to give you a hard time.

How can feminine emotions be present, when anti-estrogens are being taken, to either block formation of estrogen completely, or bind to the estrogen receptors to prevent estrogen from exerting its effects?

 

[Sir Savage]

Capitalism suppresses my options in life bcause I come from a low income family, thats bad enough.

Nope, capitalism and democracy allows you to do basically whatever you want as far as taking a direction in life and earning a living. If you want to work at McDonald's, you can do that. If you want to start your own company, you can do that. If you want to go to college and study ancient Mycenean culture, you can do that.

My family used to be dirt-poor Georgia trailer trash, but we turned our bar of lead into gold. Anyone can do it.

As an example of what REAL oppression is, one of my former professors is Chinese. He was tested by the government, and TOLD what field he was to go into. He had no choice.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

How many of you have studied History or Political Science as an undergrad/post-graduate concentration? I see so many inaccuracies here its mindboggling and there are just too many too correct. The Clinton argument is the most ridiculous notion I've ever heard. I won't go into to it because I could write a book on it. I would like to know how Bush unlawfully used force or violence against anyone or group for the purpose of intimidation to coerce ideological or political gains (definition of terrorism if you didn't know).

YJ you know this is never personal but most anti-government proponents preach nothing but complete garbage. Its a refuge for those too lazy to think rationally and full of emotionally driven people with clouded judgements based on complete paranoia. Anarchy produces death of culture, people and everything surrounding it.


The picture itself looks like third world propaganda.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Thats the way this country was intended from the start.

Wrong. This country was oringinally a republic with an elite leading class that mirrored the monarchy they escaped. They could care less about anyone but themsevles. Check out Bacons Rebellion. At one point free blacks were valued higher than former indentured servants (whites).

One of the several mistakes stated throughout this thread. Its late and I'm bored

 

[Dwight Schrute]

**** that, you can have your petty country and its powertriping government.

Would you like to live in Finland where 65% of your paycheck goes to the government? This is just one example. If your wondering, the US takes the least.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well if he cant and doesnt have the athority to prevent it in America, how the hell's he going to do it in other countries? By threatenening them? No one takes this dumbass serious anymore, he's all talk.



So other countries dont have the right to be pissed at him and the US? Scroll back up and look at the number of lives we've taken, you expect other countries to sit there and take it because we're the "supreme dominate country" At least the Al Queda is doing something to make the playing field fair.

[/b]

Every time we've invaded a country its been pointless and all for not, jsut got a few hundred troops killed here and there, no big deal, he doesnt care, its not his life.

[/b]

If we were truly thriving and successful, we wouldnt be trying to step on other countries for petty reasons. The reason we are doing well is BECAUSE of those other countries that provide us with the necessities we need to live and what do we give them in return? Some products and a couple missles.



[/b]

I agree and maybe Bush should think about this next time he wants to attack another country, he might win the battle, but he'll NEVER win the war. Theres too many countries that hate us now and out to get us or aid those who will get us..... we'll have Bush to thank in a couple years

[/b]

Whos to say we wont misues them? And if we did say that, who would stop us? No one. We're the big dog of the world and we want it to be known, thats lame. Who's to judge a radical goverment? I think our government is radical? Everyone is so blind by what they here on television and what theyre being told by our goverment.



[/b]

LoL...theres a hundred countries that are Anti-US. Even the UN is backing out, everyone's tired of our ****. Tired of our desperation to get back the respect we lost when we lost the Trade Centers. Get over it, they got the better of us. End of story. If anyting it should open the goverment's eyes to listen to them. That was the whole point anyways. Instead of listening, Bush is out to kill more people, like a 6 year old on the playground. You're not going to win the world's favortism by bombing and raiding them

[/b]

And what a great job he's doing. "If they dont agree with us, we'll just kill some of their people and threaten their rights and ability to defend themselves"



[/b]

So uhhh......any idea why we have them?




This nation is still weak, always will be. Bush keeps making enemies for us and we'll have to reap the concenquesnces of HIS actions and thats bullshit. Thats what this lovely goverment is doing for us all. We elected Gore and got Bush and look what he's doing for us? We're living in fear because of that piece of ****. Congrats if you voted for him, you've fucked us all. [/B]

1. You can't compare how many lives we've taken. If you do that then put the Catholic Church number one on the list. They wiped out 90% of the indigenous Mexican population in the name of conversion. THats just a small part.

2. Everytim we've invaded a country? Does that mean France, Italy, Germany during WWII or places like Guatamala, Panama, and Nicaragua? Each one I could see benefits and disadvantages.

3. Foget it, I'm too damn tired...You got me thinking though YJ. You accomplished your goal...Time to hit the sack.

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm free to do a lot of things that i can't in another country

Are you? For how much longer? Do you just sit back and let them do what they want? Did you e-mail congress about the PH ban? Times are changing my friend.....

but you sir are taking it to an extreme amount... you don't believe ANYTHING from OUR government; but seems like you take info from every other government with open arms...

Quote me a post I made that said I believe what the Afghan. or Iraq or any other country's government says. If you'd actually go back and read, you'll see that I stated I dont stand for formalization of government, no matter who's it is. I cant believe wha every other government says, because I dont live there, you think our government will allow us to hear the views and thoughts and truths of other countries government? ha.

You don't have a concept of anarchy because there hasn't been one in your lifetime nor ever will be. Its only our imaginations on how it could be and I think you're going on the bit extreme side

Thats your opinion brother, and its appreciated, but I wouldnt call me extreme, just opening up the other door in life, love it or hate it. I dont have a concept of Anarchy, just as I dont have a concept of true freedom. I pay fucking taxes every month because some white trash americans wont get off their lazy ass and get a fucking job. Thats freedom? It costs an awful lot to live here if Im free. If it were freedom, I would have a choice about paying taxes because its MY right to choose NOT to help those who refuse to help themselves.

With anarchy you wouldn't be posting on this forum right now... with anarchy roids as they are known about now would not exists.... with anarchy the bodybuilding community would not exist and most of us wouldn't know a damn thing about it...

Thats where I can not argue with you because you have no idea what anarchy is about. Anarchy to you is what you hear on TV and what books portray of it. Savage men running around killing and taking eachother's wives and money.....sure that could happen, but it could happen now if people wanted it to. Why wouldnt bodybuilding exist? Do you think you would be standing around with a gun guarding your house 24-7? Nope. Theres a big difference between chaos and anarchy.

with anarchy there is no law and there is no social order; without that social order the many things that YOU and I take for granted would not exist... can you imagine not being able to take a **** inside a bathroom but going to an outhouse? ever had to do that? i have and it sucks...

wtf? How out of context is this? With anarchy, all the bathrooms wont disappear. Inovation wont subside. Anarchy is a form of government where there is no government. Thats anarchy, what people choose to do with no laws is up to them, those actions arent anarchy. (On a side note: Im from WV brother, Ive **** in a few outhouses)

do you actually believe people would ban together in a world full of anarchy? sure they would; they would ban together to form communities; which would form together to become nations/civilizations... and those nations would have GOVERNMENTS just like we have now...

Wait......how do you have a concept of anarchy and I dont? How come you can predict the future with anarchy and I cant? If you instill anarchy in a certain area, people would only be foolish to form a government and granted you would have people trying to do that. But Im sure it wouldnt last long when some others realized what restrictions governments place on your life.

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm sure he would do just that if he could be of any help, but he is not a trained soldier. It is not a job delegated to him. His job, among others, is to be the top commander of the military, NOT participate. He, nor any of our presidents, enjoyed or made the decision lightly to go to war (and actually, that's not even a power of the president). It's never a pleasant thing when deaths occur.

So his job is to basically tell others to go over there and defend the country he runs and it may cost them their lives and inevitably it will cost many their lives. Sounds like a dictator to me. Bus enjoys war. He jumps at every chance he gets to ship some troops out. Maybe someone could explain this to him if he would listen.

We have an all volunteer military force. Those guys and gals knew exactly what the military was for when they signed up; they knew there was a chance that something could happen, and they would have to go to war. They accepted this fact when they enlisted. There is no dilusion here. They signed up to fight for our country.

So ****'em right? They're not educated enough to attend college, wealthy enough to start a business, disciplined enough to hold a job. Oh well, we'll **** there ass to Irag and make them fight for us. The way this shitty government is ran, the military is the only way people can afford to live anymore. If you dont go to college, you might as well join the Army. Everyone of my friends joined out of high school. No one here can afford to go to college nor have the grades. So thats their ONLY option if they wish to live.

Nothing justifies it? What about self-defense? Isn't defending your national interests self-defense? If something threatens the lives or well-being of a government's citizens, then they are justified to protect them by whatever means necessary. This is very unfortunate, but, occasionally it gets to this point. But, the one provoking the action, in this case Iraq and/or terrorists, is to blame.

NOTHING justifys taking someone's life.Who are YOU to take another life? Life is the ultimate price to pay. Defending your interests by murdering someone, sounds kind of cruel to me. Theres no better way to work things out? Or is the other way too time consuming and it would be much easier just to kill them as negostiate and maybe have to sacrifice something. Ok now wait..... you say "occasionally it gets to this point" So why are you pissed thousands of people died in NY? The US government listens and pays attention now right? SO that had to be done to get their attention, so maybe it wasnt really a tragedy huh? (I hope a lot of people hate me after this one )

The playing field isn't fair, nor will it ever be, with those kind of actions. How can an organization commit an atrocity such as that, and run back into hiding? That's not very fair, is it?

You have to hide when you have 1K troops and not allowed to posess missles, airplanes, etc. The Afghan nation isnt poor by anymeans, they can afford a military, but the US sanctions wont allow them to do so, that seems fair huh?

And we have not oppressed countries. We promote capitalism and democracy. I fail to see how we oppress when we promote freedom.

Promote freedom? Riiiight. To what extent and to whom? Dont believe everything you see on TV. Look at all the countries we have sanctions against and wont allow them to do things ON THEIR OWN GOD DAMN GROUNDS. Promote capitalism, thats the first problem right there.....

Who says those bases are necessarily for attack? Sure, if the need arose, they would be used for attack, but did it ever occur that maybe those bases are there because the people of the respective countries want them there? Prince Sultan AirBase is in Saudi Arabia because the Saudis want their borders protected.

I think in real life we all know why those bases are there, regardless of what our government preaches, we know why they're there. Just like Cuba denying that Russia sent tons after tons of weapons there to house, we all know they're full of ****...

[qouote]If the governments of those nations did not want us there, we would not be there. And we would not bomb them just because they didn't want us there.[/quote]

No we wouldnt, but you better bet your sweet as there would be "sanctions" against that country. You know thats the truth. Any country who doesnt agree with us, we sanction, Seems so childish to me. Such a big mouth on such a little man leading this country.

Bush is not responsible for the actions of irrational extremists who have no regard for human life. Personal responsibility. You take responsibility for your own actions.

Isnt that Anarchy? I believe so.

Bush may be making more extremists mad by taking a hardline approach to terrorism, but what's the alternative? Ignoring it? Talking it out? No, they want to kill us, kill the "Great Satan". Unfortunately, what it's basically come down to, is us or them.

Thats what they want you to believe. I think our national defense is good enough where no one's going to enter our country and take over. So mind your own business and concentrate on the country you lead is what I say. They dont want us killed, they want HIM killed.

Sure, we've misused them. As I said, we've made mistakes. We were the first to develop and test the bomb, so we found out, firsthand, exactly why others SHOULDN'T develop them.

You jsut said above: "have me misused them, no" Why shouldnt they? Because they're capable of mass destruction? So why do we continue to produce them and become interested in them?

Yes, a country can defend itself without a nuke. We did just fine defending ourselves after Pearl Harbor, and so did Japan. We used the bomb to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of our men. Us or them. So much for our administrations not caring about our soldiers.

Still doesnt answer why we have them and continue to have them in production. Maybe Bush is afraid oneday he'll have to reap what he sows huh?

Something was bound to happen sooner or later, but we didn't "have it coming". It was an atrocity, and for what? What did they prove? That they're raving lunatics who have no regard for the lives of others?

We had it coming, just as we had pearl harbor coming. You act like a dick to people, you're going to get your ass blind isded eventually, this also applies in war. I dont doubt those actions were ignorant and uncalled for, but you gotta do what you gotta do. If thats the only way this country will listen (and it obviously is) then its up to you, but like I said before, it sure in the hell doesnt justify killing thousands......

What do you mean, against who? You made a statement to the effect of "we are taking away the powers of others to defend themselves", and I said no we're not, N. Korea can defend itself just fine without nukes.

I wont touch this, this is too grey for me and you as well. Neither of us know the true capabilities of another countries military. sure on the news it makes N. Korea out to be some type of powerhouse and a country to fear, but thats only designed to make the American people happy when we go over there and kill a few of them.

There is something wrong with N. Korea having nukes, because they are anti-U.S., and extreme. Nukes+extremists=bad news.

Wonder why they're anti-US? Im sick of everyone taking our governments side because this is where we live. People are scared shitless to speak out and oppose something. I for one wont live my lifei n the dark being told what to do and what to believe in. N. Korea hates us, big fucking deal. I dont give a **** that they're making nukes, what are they going to do? Throw them over here? We obviously did something to piss them off, let them makes nukes, we have some. Why can we have them and not N. Korea? Thats a big advancement for that country, so be it.

Dude, please tell me you didn't just say this. We used a nuke, and BTW, a very weak nuke compared to today's nukes, to end a very long, very serious, and very costly war. We wanted to end it without having to lose anymore of our boys.

Thats great. For countries like N. Korea who dont have a booming economy, they makes nukes to end a costly war before it starts, nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

WTF does N. Korea need to use a nuke for???? They don't. There is no war where the fate of the world hangs in the balance, like there was when we used it.

You're being such a typical American. What does anyone need a fucking nuke for? You never answered my question anyways....why can we have them, but no one else? No one needs them. But if they make them, fine, leave them alone and maybe they wont use them ON YOU. Why do people need handguns? Self-Defense brother.

If everyone is sick of our ****, then why are they backing us if Saddam does not comply?

Because if they dont, they'll get the dreaded sanctions.

When have we ever gone and started a war just to start a war?

Desert storm, and thats the only one in my lifetime. But the way it sounds (not from anyone's standpoint, nor our Govt. or any other) We have participated in wars where we didnt belong in the past.

There may have been terrorist attacks, we just may not know of them. We rarely hear of the ones that are thwarted

I think you would hear about little Judy farting in church these day and age.

Clinton had an oppurtunity to bring Bin Ladin in from the Sudanese, but he DECLINED, stating that there was not enough evidence. Maybe he was too busy getting it on with interns to see how important this issue was.

Yea maybe but Im not getting on the issue of extra marital affairs, its not my business nor your's. Clinton was actually rational, didnt look forward to war, didnt like sending OUR brother and sisters and mothers and fathers to foreign countries to be miserable and potentially die. And for what? Die for fuckin what? A flag with your name on it? **** that.

What's better, taking a hardline approach to terrorism and fighting it, or letting them kill us? I'd prefer the former.

Id prefer minding our own business and avoiding it all together.

 

[YellowJacket]

Nope, capitalism and democracy allows you to do basically whatever you want as far as taking a direction in life and earning a living. If you want to work at McDonald's, you can do that. If you want to start your own company, you can do that. If you want to go to college and study ancient Mycenean culture, you can do that.

We all know in capitalism the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there needs no explaination on this topic.

My family used to be dirt-poor Georgia trailer trash, but we turned our bar of lead into gold. Anyone can do it.

Well please do tell the secret. Sure sounds easy huh? Its hard to do it when theres no money avaliable to do so. Things arent free.

As an example of what REAL oppression is, one of my former professors is Chinese. He was tested by the government, and TOLD what field he was to go into. He had no choice.

Yea that sucks, in anarchy you wouldnt have that. Capitalism here also portrays what you will be doing. If you ave a middle class family and obove, your options are endless. Live in lower class WV you will join the army, kill yourself or work at a coal mine for petty change a day. Coal mining, ever done it? I have. No why you're doing it? To keeo this beautiful country running and for what? $17K a year on the average, what a beautiful place.

 

[YellowJacket]

How many of you have studied History or Political Science as an undergrad/post-graduate concentration? I see so many inaccuracies here its mindboggling and there are just too many too correct. The Clinton argument is the most ridiculous notion I've ever heard. I won't go into to it because I could write a book on it. I would like to know how Bush unlawfully used force or violence against anyone or group for the purpose of intimidation to coerce ideological or political gains (definition of terrorism if you didn't know).

If you refuse to go into it, I dont think thats a fair statement to make then man. I have only studied history in high school (which I failed because I refused to be force fed bullshit. Its like the Book "Hard Times" by Charles Dickens....You're conditioned to believe things, Id like to make my own choices and form my own opinions.) I dont have to be educated in the history of our country to understand politics.

YJ you know this is never personal but most anti-government proponents preach nothing but complete garbage. Its a refuge for those too lazy to think rationally and full of emotionally driven people with clouded judgements based on complete paranoia. Anarchy produces death of culture, people and everything surrounding it.

Is it? Whats wrong with questioning the actions of the people who's salary you pay? Am I the only ones who sees a problem with this? Not questioning something is garbage, I think SSX will agree. How do you know Anarchy produces the death fo a nation? Ever been in anarchy? Nope. Sure you can form an opinion about it, and I'll form one of my own too.

 

[YellowJacket]

Would you like to live in Finland where 65% of your paycheck goes to the government? This is just one example. If your wondering, the US takes the least.

Dontk now if thasts true, but you're a good man, so I'll take your word for it. But the least to me being a WV resident is an awful lot. I could use that extra $$$. Im helping house and feed people who truly arent that worse off than myself. I just refuse to jump on welfare and ride it because thats not what I believe in. Take the most, least, whatever but to some people, thats a lot.

 

[YellowJacket]

3. Foget it, I'm too damn tired...You got me thinking though YJ. You accomplished your goal...Time to hit the sack.

My goal was to piss as many people off as possible and to have the lowest number of people liking me after this. But with that said, I expect respect from it because Ive done my research and just because I dont agree with the ways of this nation doesnt make me and lesser than anyone. But I bet if I said "damn, Id like to kill Geaorge Bush" Damnit my ass would be in jail until I rot away....but if Geaorge Bush said "Damn, Id like to kill Bryan Johnson (me)" Everyone would laugh their asses off and let it pass.....that fair? No. What has this piece of **** done that I havent? I run a gym in lower class WV. WE have the fattest, poorest state in the nation. Why run a gym in WV? No one wants to workout obviously, I must be out of my mind. I choose to stay here and provide a place for those who want help to get help. If they want to change their lives, you either choose my gym or not gym. Theres not another one around. I might be going in debt and be forced to sell very soon, but if I save 1 obese person's life, its worth the money Im loosing. Now you tell me what hes done for YOU and the American people, besides ship your friends and family off to fight for HIS cause.

 

[YellowJacket]

Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right

 

[DarCSA]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right

I don't think I can let that happen. I will get a point across if I think one needs to be made. I will be here as well. When the rest are dead and long forgotten, I will still remember and be here till the job is done.

 

[YellowJacket]

Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create a society in which individuals freely co-operate together as equals without political, economic or social hierarchies. Anarchism essentially seeks to create a classless, stateless society, free of oppression and exploitation, that is organized and held together by the four principles; individual freedom, social and economic equality, free association, and mutual aid (i.e. cooperation and solidarity).

Tell me whats so wrong with that??

Anarchy does not mean chaos, crime, destruction or havoc. To the contrary, these have been the characteristics of political and economic hierarchies throughout history. One of the most common critiques of anarchism is that people "naturally" require hierarchal structures to govern society. However, every single hierarchal structure throughout history has burned to rubble. Not a single government nor empire has lasted more than a few hundred years. People have always rebelled against governments and hierarchal structures. Perhaps this is an obvious indication that people cannot sustain a natural equilibrium within society as long as hierarchy exists because as history has shown us, people will ALWAYS naturally rebel against them.

 

[Big H]

My god YJ. That is the utopian defenition of anarchy- just like people in other countries believe that we are the utopian defenition of Democracy. People can NEVER live in peace with eachother and cooperate; you say that anarchy is not chaos but I beg to differ. Sure we have our own laws, but what's to stop someone from saying "murder is not a crime in my government," and going on a killing spree?

1. People like to have order- It's true that people disagree with the government a lot; but they still couldn't make it without them. How many people would revert to crime if anarchy existed, think about it. With no chance of getting in trouble, how many would do whatever they want.

2. Without a government, and with anarchy, what will happen to all of the nuclear weapons and other technoligical advances that we have now? They will be used however people deem fit.

3. Eventually someone WILL become dicatator- Eventually someone will gather up enough people and become dicatator. This only makes sense, because people will want control of the world- it's human nature. So no government will turn into a dictatorship.

Remember, YJ, Anarchy mean chaos- why? Because on paper it looks good, but in men's hearts they could never live without order.

 

[YellowJacket]

My god YJ. That is the utopian defenition of anarchy- just like people in other countries believe that we are the utopian defenition of Democracy. People can NEVER live in peace with eachother and cooperate; you say that anarchy is not chaos but I beg to differ. Sure we have our own laws, but what's to stop someone from saying "murder is not a crime in my government," and going on a killing spree?

People go on killing sprees today. People will always kill people. There will always be murder. Do you blame murder in this day and age on the government? Hell no. Murder has nothing to do with government. Sure without punishment there would be more murder, but in Anarchy there would be far less reasons to want someone dead. The frustration level of being poor would be much less.

1. People like to have order- It's true that people disagree with the government a lot; but they still couldn't make it without them. How many people would revert to crime if anarchy existed, think about it. With no chance of getting in trouble, how many would do whatever they want.

Again, beat the dead horse. How do you know? Ever lived in an Anarchist society? No. So you can make such a out of bounds generelization. I dont like order. I have friends who dont like order. I could make it without a government. Anarchy does not lead to crime. Like I said before, the government structure doesnt have anything to do with crime. Your points arent really worth debating.

2. Without a government, and with anarchy, what will happen to all of the nuclear weapons and other technoligical advances that we have now? They will be used however people deem fit.

Once again, people and countries can and will use these weapons of mass destruction regardless of government structutre. The inevitablility of every non 3rd world country having nukes us apparent,. regardless of our government structure.

3. Eventually someone WILL become dicatator- Eventually someone will gather up enough people and become dicatator. This only makes sense, because people will want control of the world- it's human nature. So no government will turn into a dictatorship.

Then this will no longer be an anarchist society. There is no dictator in society. We have communist dictator ship now. And again, you make a terrible generalization. I dont want to rule the world, I would like to be left alone to do the things I deem necessary to live a happy life. These are merely your opinions H.

[/b]Remember, YJ, Anarchy mean chaos- why? Because on paper it looks good, but in men's hearts they could never live without order. [/B]

Anarchy doesnt mean chaos, did you fail to read the definition above or are you too hard headed in your own beliefs? Sure it looks good on paper, just as democracy does. Everything looks good on paper. Do you think we have a democracy now like it was drawn up? Ha, no way. This country is full of oppressed, miserable people and its only getting worse. There's regualtions on everything these days, the government is playing you and yourl ife as they want and there's nothing you can do about it. I could live without order. Anarchy isnt how its portrayed on TV, duh. Anarchy is having no social classes, etc. Do a little more research next time.

And tell me H, would you die for your country?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Im hoping to post so many times in a row, everyone just says aw **** it, YJ's right

Yeah. I'm just not in the mood anymore. Give me some time because I know the posts will be extremely long.


That definition of Anarchy is not the real definition. Its a hybrid.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Little tidbit for you:

"The best exponent of anarchist philosophy in ancient Greece was Zeno (342-267 or 270 BC), from Crete, the founder of the Stoic philosophy, who distinctly opposed his conception of a free community without government to the state-utopia of Plato. He repudiated the omnipotence of the state, its intervention and regimentation, and proclaimed the sovereignty of the moral law of the individual - remarking already that, while the necessary instinct of self-preservation leads man to egotism, nature has supplied a corrective to it by providing man with another instinct - that of sociability. When men are reasonable enough to follow their natural instincts, they will unite across the frontiers and constitute the cosmos. They will have no need of law-courts or police, will have no temples and no public worship, and use no money - free gifts taking the place of the exchanges. Unfortunately, the writings of Zeno have not reached us and are only known through fragmentary quotations. However, the fact that his very wording is similar to the wording now in use, shows how deeply is laid the tendency of human nature of which he was the mouthpiece.

In medieval times we find the same views on the state expressed by the illustrious bishop of Alba, Marco Girolamo Vida, in his first dialogue De dignitate reipublicae (Ferd. Cavalli, in Mem. dell'Istituto Veneto, xiii.; Dr E. Nys, Researches in the History of Economics). But it is especially in several early Christian movements, beginning with the ninth century in Armenia, and in the preachings of the early Hussites, particularly Chojecki, and the early Anabaptists, especially Hans Denk (cf. Keller, Ein Apostel der Wiedertaufer), that one finds the same ideas forcibly expressed - special stress being laid of course on their moral aspects.

It was Godwin, in his Enquiry concerning Political Justice (2 vols., 1793), who was the first to formulate the political and economical conceptions of anarchism, even though he did not give that name to the ideas developed in his remarkable work. Laws, he wrote, are not a product of the wisdom of our ancestors: they are the product of their passions, their timidity, their jealousies and their ambition. The remedy they offer is worse than the evils they pretend to cure. If and only if all laws and courts were abolished, and the decisions in the arising contests were left to reasonable men chosen for that purpose, real justice would gradually be evolved. As to the state, Godwin frankly claimed its abolition. A society, he wrote, can perfectly well exist without any government: only the communities should be small and perfectly autonomous. Speaking of property, he stated that the rights of every one 'to every substance capable of contributing to the benefit of a human being' must be regulated by justice alone: the substance must go 'to him who most wants it'. His conclusion was communism. Godwin, however, had not the courage to maintain his opinions. He entirely rewrote later on his chapter on property and mitigated his communist views in the second edition of Political Justice (8vo, 1796).



On paper it doesn't sound as bad. Neither did Marxism. In fact Marxism and Communism before it was converted into Stalinism was more humane and fair to the public than capitalsim will ever be. But it also shows how one can distort something without any law present. I know you said you don't need to understand the history behind concepts to understand them. I think you do. History shapes the way your feel about things in the present. Understanding that always helps in understanding what you really feel.

 

[scotty2]

Put that in your pipe............and smoke it!:saw:

 

[Sir Savage]

Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

I feel confident in the points I've made, so I respectfully bow out.

BTW, YJ, the "secret" to succeeding in a capitalistic society, and how my family turned 180 degrees, is, put simply, hardwork and determination. The point is, that in a capitalistic society, you have the OPPORTUNITY to do what you want to do. Sure, it's hard to do certain things, but who ever said it was easy? In many other countries, you have NO opportunities. If you want to go to college, make good grades in high school, and get loans. Hell, you may even be able to get a scholarship. You can make things happen, it just depends on how bad you want it, and how hard you work for it.

 

[Big H]

Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

I feel confident in the points I've made, so I respectfully bow out.

BTW, YJ, the "secret" to succeeding in a capitalistic society, and how my family turned 180 degrees, is, put simply, hardwork and determination. The point is, that in a capitalistic society, you have the OPPORTUNITY to do what you want to do. Sure, it's hard to do certain things, but who ever said it was easy? In many other countries, you have NO opportunities. If you want to go to college, make good grades in high school, and get loans. Hell, you may even be able to get a scholarship. You can make things happen, it just depends on how bad you want it, and how hard you work for it.

Bump this. Basically stating what I said .

YJ- You haven't lived in an anarchist soceity either- so I take it you can't make the same rational judgements. People would still kill, people would still steal and lie; but here they can do it without fear of punishment.

 

[ex_banana-eater]

Ah, enter Bobo, the history buff. Well done.

It appears to me, that another problem with anarchism, is that it assumes all men to be rational, and thus moral, and this just isn't the case. That is why it would lead to disaster. The irrational and/or power-hungry individuals would eventually fight and conquer each other, eventually leading to some sort of government. It's just the nature of man.

Good point.

BTW IMO Capitalism is similar to evolution.

 

[YellowJacket]

Good job guys, Im impressed but you're all forgetting one thing..... if people are going to commit crimes and **** up now, they'll go to jail, pay a fine, etc. If you decide to kill someone, steal someone in an anarchist world, you'd better fear for your own life. I believe the anarchist system follows the golden rule, eye for an eye. I think the thought of sacrificing your life to take someone else's would make someone think twice. Now you can kill someone, go to jail for 10 years or so, be set free. In an anarchist world, you kill someone, its very likely your life will be taken by someone else as your punishment and I like that. To hell with judges and your "peers" judging you. Thats petty. You guys act like everyone would just go nuts without laws. If people wanted to go apeshit, they would do it now. Laws just arent stiff enough. My parents were killed by a drunk driver, the murderer (a prominant lawyer, and politican) served a little over 6 years. For a fucking double murder. Anyone want to know why? Because he's a hero in the community, he's a very well liked politician. But the real reason why is because he belongs to the highest of social classes and when you're a member of a high social class, you're exempt from most laws (Ie. All he coke head baseball players, OJ Simpson, Clinton, etc) You get at what Im saying. With Anarchy, social classes are eliminated and you're responsible for your own.

And H, Im ignoring you for hte simple fact you're just in this to be a prick and bump what everyone else says. You are unable to form quality opinions for yourself so you really dont fit in this debate.

 

[pjorstad]

Eye for an eye yadda yadda blah blah blah

I tell you what, anarchism comes along and i see a pretty girl(hypothetically) i take in my car rape and then drop her off somewhere. She don't know who i am , then she tells her friends who rape her themselves just for a good time and just to be jokingly cruel and know she can't do anything about it because all these guys are gang raping her with no one to defend her. Heh so what are you gonna do about that??


This is just one example, and a rather crude one but this shows how out of control things can be.

 

[YellowJacket]

Eye for an eye yadda yadda blah blah blah

I tell you what, anarchism comes along and i see a pretty girl(hypothetically) i take in my car rape and then drop her off somewhere. She don't know who i am , then she tells her friends who rape her themselves just for a good time and just to be jokingly cruel and know she can't do anything about it because all these guys are gang raping her with no one to defend her. Heh so what are you gonna do about that??

You can rape a girl with our current government and get away with it if she doesnt know who you are. Are you thinking logically when you type or are you trying to be funny? This wasnt a very funny example and a piss poor hypothetical scenario. And you might think twice about raping her if shes packing a 9mm huh? Or if her dad is packing a 12 guage huh? Or if one of your friends decideds to be a MAN and realize what you're doing is wrong and he shoves a beer bottle up your ass. Anarchy is a mtter of maturity and the ability to handle yourself with infinate freedom. Its obvious I guess that not everyone could handle it.

This is just one example, and a rather crude one but this shows how out of control things can be.

For the 50th time. Things are out of control with our current government. Things will be out of control no matter what the government because you CANT please everyone, so why not let people have the freedom to please themselves? Like I said, lifes way to short and miserable to be confined to 1000s of rules and regulations.

 

[YellowJacket]

Another point I would like to make, and this is a bit cruel, but how things need to be. It may seem I contradict myself here but if you pay attention its anything but.......


I dont know if you've noticed or not but the gas prices are going up quite a bit once again and are considerably higher than the previous years. This is just ONE example of government abuse. I think its funny how the government (to "boost" economy) could raise the gas price to $4 a gallon and millions of ignorant, defenseless, stubborn Americans would pay it. For the simple fact "I have a job to do, I have to get back and forth to work". If everyone woul unite and say "**** you" and not go to work, what would this country do without us? Not a god damn thing. But noooo everyone bends over and takes it in the ass when **** like this happens, pathetic.

Let me talk about "Leveling the playing field" All governors, politicans, law enforcement, etc have much more power than any of us could imagine. One is the point I made about gas prices above. Now there's just not enough rebels in our world today, our government as conditioned us to be weak and obediant. Thats bullshit. I know I'll get in trouble for saying this, etc. but **** it, someone needs to. You think these law makers would continue to **** us and strip us of freedom if they were in fear of their lives if they were to do such a thing? If a few more people in this country would get some balls and stand up for THEIR rights in THEIR country and threaten or even further some of these people, thats leveling the playing field. Gas prices would not continue to rise, for the benefit of I dont know what, If the decision makers said "Damn, last week a senator was killed because he wanted to do...... whatever" Think about that. The gun is the power of the people. As long as it exists, WE ARE IN CONTROL. Barbaric huh? Thats life. And you wonder why more and more regulations are placed on gun possession. They know this. Arm the people! Arm the poor! Guns are OUR decision and law makers.