theBIGcactus
Member
Yo, I got a tub of soy protein from my buddy, I was wondering when the best time to use this stuff is, i use whey pre/post. Maybe before bed time? I donno let me know what you think
Soy Protein any one use?
- Thread starter theBIGcactus
- Start date
Hyde12
Well-known member
Yep that is true.
LeeN
Member
that's from excessive soy intake in any form.
Hyde12
Well-known member
Flax seed is said to be a phytoestrogen as well.
BodyWizard
Registered User
++ - "large amounts of soy protein" are not necessary for the estrogenic properties of soy to show themselves, and it adds no benefit that cannot be had just as easily from other sources.
BigBAMA has it right: give that tub (and its contents) to a lady-friend!
BigBAMA has it right: give that tub (and its contents) to a lady-friend!
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Invalid Link Removed
Source: Elite Fitness: Online Bodybuilding Magazine
If you remember many years ago, weight gainers were the big thing and
protein powders were out! Then, in like a storm came the "low calorie"
weight gainers (yeah right!) and the criticism of the high calorie
diet. Right after this came the inundation of whey protein. Here's the
trend: promote something, then dispel it, promote it again, then
dispel it. This way, the supplement companies always have something
"new" to bring to the market. I predict that soon, there will be a
resurgence in the high calorie diet. I'm sure it will be slightly
modified, but a high calorie diet nonetheless.
Most supplement companies do not really care what the truth about
supplements really is -- they will promote what is "hot". Translation:
what has the lowest production costs, and the greatest money-making
potential. Back to protein powders -- is whey really the king protein?
And are you getting what you pay for? The answer is that you've been
misled again.
In this issue of Elite Fitness News, we'll take a close look at whey
protein and how it compares to other proteins -- soy protein in
particular. We'll look at how in many ways it is not the superior
protein that the bodybuilding magazines would lead you to believe.
We'll look at the following:
BV vs PDCAAS BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS (Protein Digestibility
Corrected Amino Acid Score).
A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.
Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test
Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate
Soy Protein Isolate for body-builders
Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters
The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate
I guarantee that after reading this newsletter, you'll never look at
proteins the same way again. I also guarantee that the information in
this letter will save you money and help you get closer to finding the
ultimate protein source for building a hard lean muscular physique.
If you read any of the bodybuilding magazines for the last few years
now, it is hard not to notice the concerted effort that the publishers
have made to push whey protein as bodybuilding's superior protein
source. You've seen the claims and the hype, "biological value of
168--over 50% better that egg protein," "ion- exchanged," "richest
source of glutamine," and the list goes on and on. What many
bodybuilders do not realize, is that this hype is just that - hype.
Much of what you have heard about whey's superiority as a protein
source is just plain untrue. Let's take a closer look.
Most people do not realize whey protein's humble origins. Originally,
whey was a by-product of cheese production. Cheese is mostly fat and
casein. In the cheese making process, whey was a left over by-product,
and it was simply poured down the drain. Now, that was some time ago -
back then, the manufacturers thought, wouldn't it be nice if we could
find a way to sell the waste and make some money out of it. And the
stuff was cheap as could be. Maybe they thought, "we'll sell it to
bodybuilders! They'll eat (believe) anything." And the rest is
history.
History has repeated itself for the other sources of protein as well,
when eggs were cheap, they were the preferred protein, now that they
are not quite the bargain they once were, they are no longer in vogue.
Later on, dairy subsidies made milk casein pricing more attractive, so
it then became the star. Then along came whey, and you know the rest
of the story.
1. BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS Protein Digestibility Corrected
Amino Acid Score).
Several studies have been done to assess any differences in weight
gain between individuals supplementing with whey protein, soy protein,
or egg protein. SURPRISE, SURPRISE! There were NO differences
whatsoever (statistically speaking) between the effectiveness of the
proteins. Remember, all three of these proteins are designed to
stimulate growth-- albeit in chicks, calves, etc. So, is one really
better than another? Not according to the weight gained in the
studies. Proponents of whey say that it has an ultra high BV
(biological value), exceeding by far every other protein. One
manufacturer even claims that their protein has a BV of 168-- over 50%
better that egg protein!
Scoring Protein by BV is the first area where the bodybuilding public
is being deceived and manipulated. Elite Fitness has researched this
topic rather thoroughly and has talked to experts in the field who
work for the actual companies which manufacture and process the raw,
bulk products. I have questioned several experts as to the quality of
the various proteins and have found a few interesting facts. First and
foremost, BV and PER (protein efficiency ratio) are OUTDATED. The
newest and most accurate measurement of a protein's quality for a
HUMAN is the PDCAAS--Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score.
A mouthful I know, and yet it is the industry standard.
According to the PDCAAS scale, whey is not necessarily the best
protein. In fact, soy and whey are both considered a ONE (top score)
on the scale. Does this mean that both of these proteins are equal?
Not at all--I will discuss the pros and cons of each protein later in
the article. What it does mean is that either will supply the BASIC
BUILDING BLOCKS for muscle tissue growth and recuperation as well as
the next one.
2. A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.
The first thing that I do when a consultation client asks me about Soy
Isolate Deluxe protein is to ask them to forget whatever they have
heard about soy protein. Soy has received a bad reputation in recent
years because it is a protein source that comes entirely from
soybeans. Since soy is derived from a plant source, it has been viewed
as an inferior and incomplete protein. It also doesn't help that its
two greatest consumers in the U.S. today are vegetarians and people
with milk allergies such as lactose intolerance; not exactly the type
of people you expect to see squatting 500-lbs reps at your local gym.
Soy protein powders first came on the market as a food supplement
around 20 years ago in the form of soy protein concentrate. At that
time, soy protein concentrate was about 70% protein by weight. This
protein was loaded with carbohydrates, sodium, and had a poor amino
acid profile that made it inefficient for use as a quality muscle
building supplement.
The production and development of soy protein changed dramatically
over the following decade with the introduction of isolation.
Isolation is a method of extracting the soy protein from the beans and
concentrating it to make it far more useful to the body than the old
soy concentrate. This new product is called soy protein isolate and
contained over 90% protein.
3. Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test
This new soy-protein isolate looked fantastic on paper. Imagine a food
supplement that contains over 90% protein by weight with near zero
amounts of carbohydrates and fats. In addition, soy-protein isolate
could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of other protein
sources. This is due to the U.S. producing more than $15 billion worth
of soybeans each year for use as foodstuffs for animals and humans.
The biggest question however was how efficiently would your body use
this soy-isolate as a protein source?
In 1989, soy protein was put to the test to see how it stacked up
against other proteins on a scale of protein quality. The most
advanced protein-quality measurement scale is the Protein
Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS). The highest PDCAAS
score possible is 1.0. Any protein with a score of 1.0 is considered
complete for use by the human body. Soy was tested along with egg
white, casein (derivative of milk protein), beef, and a variety of
beans to determine their PDCAAS rating. Soy-protein isolate, along
with egg white, whey, and casein proteins, came back with a perfect
1.0 score. Interestingly enough, beef scored only a .92 while kidney
beans came in highest among the beans with a .68 rating.
But what about hydrolization (breaking the proteins into smaller
fractions like "di and tri peptides") couldn't this make whey into the
superior product that it is supposed to be? What we found was that the
hydrolyzed whey promotes less nitrogen retention than a similar
non-hydrolyzed whey (a bad thing for a bodybuilder because a positive
nitrogen balance is a must for anabolic muscle gain.) As a note: the
hydrolyzed product that we studied was the BEST in the industry with a
27% hydrolization, no bitter taste, and at a cost from the
manufacturer of greater than $8.00 per pound! Rest assured, NO
manufacturer is selling a whey product where the raw materials for the
protein cost anywhere close to $8 per pound.
Consider the above and you will quickly realize that supplement
companies (who don't actually manufacture the whey but buy the raw
product from an actual manufacturer) are telling "some fibs" about
whey protein. BV of 168--ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! Real whey manufacturers
sometimes still use BV to grade protein, and they always rate whey
protein as a 94 BV! When you see a 168 BV claim listed on the label of
several manufacturers' whey protein, just turn your head, know you're
being scammed, and absolutely don't buy!
Now let's consider the other claims and statements about the di-and
tri- peptides, about glutamine, and about the BCAAs (Branch Chain
Amino Acids).
If hydrolization doesn't further increase nitrogen retention, then
what is the point of breaking protein into its smaller fractions like
di- and tri- peptides? There IS a good reason for hydrolyzing a
protein and having short peptides but it has nothing to do with
BV/nitrogen retention. Instead, it has everything to do with how FAST
and EASY the product is absorbed in the gut. Regular, undigested whey
will be broken down into di- and tri-peptides via enzymes in a
person's gut and will be absorbed as such. The caveat is that the
whole process just takes a little longer. Hydrolyzed products are
basically only useful in baby food or hospital situations where a
person's digestive system is not functioning optimally or when protein
delivery is needed very quickly.
Is there any benefit of a hydrolyzed product for the bodybuilder? To
tell you the truth, I would have to say NO -- except possibly for the
benefit of having a quickly absorbed protein immediately after a
workout to ensure the muscle tissue is flooded with nutrients in a
timely manner albeit with a nitrogen penalty. Interestingly, this
entire argument about hydrolized protein is academic as it is not
currently sold on the market. Here's why. One, the cost of hydrolyzed
whey is outrageous and two, its taste is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Trust
me, if you're want to induce vomiting, just take a little hydrolyzed
whey protein!
4. Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
Isn't the claim true about whey having significantly higher amounts of
glutamine and BCAAs? Sorry, but NO! Whey does have the highest amounts
of BCAAs of any protein but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY higher amounts. When it
comes to the amounts of glutamine, soy beats whey hands down. For
every 100 grams of protein, whey has 20.1 grams of BCAAs and 4.9 grams
of glutamine. Maybe to your surprise, soy has 18.1 grams of BCAAs and
a whopping 10.5 grams of glutamine! Again, we have been lied to and
deceived.
5. Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate
Most companies are selling whey protein concentrate (WPC) and saying
that their product is whey protein isolate. Ion exchange protein
really doesn't mean anything in terms of the quality of the protein
powder as a whole! Any high quality, pure protein will be labeled an
ISOLATE and this is what you MUST look for. A true ion-exchange
process CAN yield a good isolate but it is not the only process
available for getting a superior whey protein. An isolate will have
very little fat and lactose and will be about 90% protein (the protein
fractions are "isolated" from the rest of the material).
On the other hand, a WPC made through protein filtration is vastly
inferior to an isolate with about 7% fat and lactose and only 75%
protein (The actual protein in WPC is usually pretty good, but who
wants to deal with all of the fat and lactose?) Interestingly, WPC
costs less than half of what an isolate costs. Unfortunately, both
products look and taste about the same so it becomes very hard to know
what you have--you basically have to trust the manufacturer
(supplement company) of the particular product.
Here's the picture--the industry through various articles in muscle
magazines touts the benefits and characteristics of a whey protein
ISOLATE and turns around and uses a CONCENTRATE. Tell me, who's the
wiser? The supplement companies, that's who, and they're a whole lot
richer to boot! Some manufacturers will put 98% WPC in their product
and then put in 1% of a hydrolyzed product (remember this tastes
horrible!) and 1% of an isolate. Then, they can legally claim all
types of stuff on their label-- di and tri peptides, ion-exchange,
blah, blah, blah!
What about the other available proteins--egg, casein, and soy? How do
these compare? First, let me state that all of the above proteins are
decent if processed correctly. Each will provide the body very
efficiently with the protein that it "needs". I would definitely stay
away from casein and egg white. Casein has been shown to have
detrimental effects on a person's cholesterol profile and egg white
protein tastes poorly, is expensive, and consists of about 10%
carbohydrates.
Before you say it, I know your response--"That's all wonderful, but
what is the best protein for me, a bodybuilder/weightlifter?" If you
were to use any ONE protein source then I would have to say that it's
a toss up between a soy isolate and a whey ISOLATE (you know, the one
that no one can buy.) WPC provides a good protein; however the
accompanying fat and carbs is something you do not want. If I had a
choice, I would pick a soy isolate. A soy isolate is inexpensive, has
the highest score on the PCDAAS, is very soluble if instantized, is
extremely bland (a good thing), IMPROVES kidney function (unlike any
other protein), is anticarcinogenic, is anti-estrogenic, lowers LDL
(bad) and raises HDL (good) cholesterol, IMPROVES THYROID FUNCTION,
etc, etc--the list goes on and on. But best of all, unlike whey
isolate, pure soy isolates exist.
6. Soy Protein Isolate benefits for Bodybuilders
Animal research suggests some great advantages of using soy protein
isolate as a bodybuilding supplement. Research has shown that the
isoflavone daidzein found in soy-protein isolate might have a gender
specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone production. Lab animals
experienced testosterone and growth hormone excretion as well as
muscle growth in males, while the female animals experienced a
decrease in these hormones and fat loss.
Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent
phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen"
(about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol).
This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like
daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for
available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor
sites daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to
and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached,
estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further
minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many
researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to
a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and
prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription
drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)--an anti-estrogen staple in the
bodybuilding community.
Research also indicates that the soy-protein isolates may reduce
nitrogen loss and keep you in a positive nitrogen balance to better
facilitate muscle growth. The human body can only repair and build
muscles when it has a positive nitrogen balance.
Source: Elite Fitness: Online Bodybuilding Magazine
If you remember many years ago, weight gainers were the big thing and
protein powders were out! Then, in like a storm came the "low calorie"
weight gainers (yeah right!) and the criticism of the high calorie
diet. Right after this came the inundation of whey protein. Here's the
trend: promote something, then dispel it, promote it again, then
dispel it. This way, the supplement companies always have something
"new" to bring to the market. I predict that soon, there will be a
resurgence in the high calorie diet. I'm sure it will be slightly
modified, but a high calorie diet nonetheless.
Most supplement companies do not really care what the truth about
supplements really is -- they will promote what is "hot". Translation:
what has the lowest production costs, and the greatest money-making
potential. Back to protein powders -- is whey really the king protein?
And are you getting what you pay for? The answer is that you've been
misled again.
In this issue of Elite Fitness News, we'll take a close look at whey
protein and how it compares to other proteins -- soy protein in
particular. We'll look at how in many ways it is not the superior
protein that the bodybuilding magazines would lead you to believe.
We'll look at the following:
BV vs PDCAAS BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS (Protein Digestibility
Corrected Amino Acid Score).
A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.
Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test
Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate
Soy Protein Isolate for body-builders
Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters
The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate
I guarantee that after reading this newsletter, you'll never look at
proteins the same way again. I also guarantee that the information in
this letter will save you money and help you get closer to finding the
ultimate protein source for building a hard lean muscular physique.
If you read any of the bodybuilding magazines for the last few years
now, it is hard not to notice the concerted effort that the publishers
have made to push whey protein as bodybuilding's superior protein
source. You've seen the claims and the hype, "biological value of
168--over 50% better that egg protein," "ion- exchanged," "richest
source of glutamine," and the list goes on and on. What many
bodybuilders do not realize, is that this hype is just that - hype.
Much of what you have heard about whey's superiority as a protein
source is just plain untrue. Let's take a closer look.
Most people do not realize whey protein's humble origins. Originally,
whey was a by-product of cheese production. Cheese is mostly fat and
casein. In the cheese making process, whey was a left over by-product,
and it was simply poured down the drain. Now, that was some time ago -
back then, the manufacturers thought, wouldn't it be nice if we could
find a way to sell the waste and make some money out of it. And the
stuff was cheap as could be. Maybe they thought, "we'll sell it to
bodybuilders! They'll eat (believe) anything." And the rest is
history.
History has repeated itself for the other sources of protein as well,
when eggs were cheap, they were the preferred protein, now that they
are not quite the bargain they once were, they are no longer in vogue.
Later on, dairy subsidies made milk casein pricing more attractive, so
it then became the star. Then along came whey, and you know the rest
of the story.
1. BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS Protein Digestibility Corrected
Amino Acid Score).
Several studies have been done to assess any differences in weight
gain between individuals supplementing with whey protein, soy protein,
or egg protein. SURPRISE, SURPRISE! There were NO differences
whatsoever (statistically speaking) between the effectiveness of the
proteins. Remember, all three of these proteins are designed to
stimulate growth-- albeit in chicks, calves, etc. So, is one really
better than another? Not according to the weight gained in the
studies. Proponents of whey say that it has an ultra high BV
(biological value), exceeding by far every other protein. One
manufacturer even claims that their protein has a BV of 168-- over 50%
better that egg protein!
Scoring Protein by BV is the first area where the bodybuilding public
is being deceived and manipulated. Elite Fitness has researched this
topic rather thoroughly and has talked to experts in the field who
work for the actual companies which manufacture and process the raw,
bulk products. I have questioned several experts as to the quality of
the various proteins and have found a few interesting facts. First and
foremost, BV and PER (protein efficiency ratio) are OUTDATED. The
newest and most accurate measurement of a protein's quality for a
HUMAN is the PDCAAS--Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score.
A mouthful I know, and yet it is the industry standard.
According to the PDCAAS scale, whey is not necessarily the best
protein. In fact, soy and whey are both considered a ONE (top score)
on the scale. Does this mean that both of these proteins are equal?
Not at all--I will discuss the pros and cons of each protein later in
the article. What it does mean is that either will supply the BASIC
BUILDING BLOCKS for muscle tissue growth and recuperation as well as
the next one.
2. A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.
The first thing that I do when a consultation client asks me about Soy
Isolate Deluxe protein is to ask them to forget whatever they have
heard about soy protein. Soy has received a bad reputation in recent
years because it is a protein source that comes entirely from
soybeans. Since soy is derived from a plant source, it has been viewed
as an inferior and incomplete protein. It also doesn't help that its
two greatest consumers in the U.S. today are vegetarians and people
with milk allergies such as lactose intolerance; not exactly the type
of people you expect to see squatting 500-lbs reps at your local gym.
Soy protein powders first came on the market as a food supplement
around 20 years ago in the form of soy protein concentrate. At that
time, soy protein concentrate was about 70% protein by weight. This
protein was loaded with carbohydrates, sodium, and had a poor amino
acid profile that made it inefficient for use as a quality muscle
building supplement.
The production and development of soy protein changed dramatically
over the following decade with the introduction of isolation.
Isolation is a method of extracting the soy protein from the beans and
concentrating it to make it far more useful to the body than the old
soy concentrate. This new product is called soy protein isolate and
contained over 90% protein.
3. Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test
This new soy-protein isolate looked fantastic on paper. Imagine a food
supplement that contains over 90% protein by weight with near zero
amounts of carbohydrates and fats. In addition, soy-protein isolate
could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of other protein
sources. This is due to the U.S. producing more than $15 billion worth
of soybeans each year for use as foodstuffs for animals and humans.
The biggest question however was how efficiently would your body use
this soy-isolate as a protein source?
In 1989, soy protein was put to the test to see how it stacked up
against other proteins on a scale of protein quality. The most
advanced protein-quality measurement scale is the Protein
Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS). The highest PDCAAS
score possible is 1.0. Any protein with a score of 1.0 is considered
complete for use by the human body. Soy was tested along with egg
white, casein (derivative of milk protein), beef, and a variety of
beans to determine their PDCAAS rating. Soy-protein isolate, along
with egg white, whey, and casein proteins, came back with a perfect
1.0 score. Interestingly enough, beef scored only a .92 while kidney
beans came in highest among the beans with a .68 rating.
But what about hydrolization (breaking the proteins into smaller
fractions like "di and tri peptides") couldn't this make whey into the
superior product that it is supposed to be? What we found was that the
hydrolyzed whey promotes less nitrogen retention than a similar
non-hydrolyzed whey (a bad thing for a bodybuilder because a positive
nitrogen balance is a must for anabolic muscle gain.) As a note: the
hydrolyzed product that we studied was the BEST in the industry with a
27% hydrolization, no bitter taste, and at a cost from the
manufacturer of greater than $8.00 per pound! Rest assured, NO
manufacturer is selling a whey product where the raw materials for the
protein cost anywhere close to $8 per pound.
Consider the above and you will quickly realize that supplement
companies (who don't actually manufacture the whey but buy the raw
product from an actual manufacturer) are telling "some fibs" about
whey protein. BV of 168--ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! Real whey manufacturers
sometimes still use BV to grade protein, and they always rate whey
protein as a 94 BV! When you see a 168 BV claim listed on the label of
several manufacturers' whey protein, just turn your head, know you're
being scammed, and absolutely don't buy!
Now let's consider the other claims and statements about the di-and
tri- peptides, about glutamine, and about the BCAAs (Branch Chain
Amino Acids).
If hydrolization doesn't further increase nitrogen retention, then
what is the point of breaking protein into its smaller fractions like
di- and tri- peptides? There IS a good reason for hydrolyzing a
protein and having short peptides but it has nothing to do with
BV/nitrogen retention. Instead, it has everything to do with how FAST
and EASY the product is absorbed in the gut. Regular, undigested whey
will be broken down into di- and tri-peptides via enzymes in a
person's gut and will be absorbed as such. The caveat is that the
whole process just takes a little longer. Hydrolyzed products are
basically only useful in baby food or hospital situations where a
person's digestive system is not functioning optimally or when protein
delivery is needed very quickly.
Is there any benefit of a hydrolyzed product for the bodybuilder? To
tell you the truth, I would have to say NO -- except possibly for the
benefit of having a quickly absorbed protein immediately after a
workout to ensure the muscle tissue is flooded with nutrients in a
timely manner albeit with a nitrogen penalty. Interestingly, this
entire argument about hydrolized protein is academic as it is not
currently sold on the market. Here's why. One, the cost of hydrolyzed
whey is outrageous and two, its taste is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Trust
me, if you're want to induce vomiting, just take a little hydrolyzed
whey protein!
4. Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
Isn't the claim true about whey having significantly higher amounts of
glutamine and BCAAs? Sorry, but NO! Whey does have the highest amounts
of BCAAs of any protein but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY higher amounts. When it
comes to the amounts of glutamine, soy beats whey hands down. For
every 100 grams of protein, whey has 20.1 grams of BCAAs and 4.9 grams
of glutamine. Maybe to your surprise, soy has 18.1 grams of BCAAs and
a whopping 10.5 grams of glutamine! Again, we have been lied to and
deceived.
5. Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate
Most companies are selling whey protein concentrate (WPC) and saying
that their product is whey protein isolate. Ion exchange protein
really doesn't mean anything in terms of the quality of the protein
powder as a whole! Any high quality, pure protein will be labeled an
ISOLATE and this is what you MUST look for. A true ion-exchange
process CAN yield a good isolate but it is not the only process
available for getting a superior whey protein. An isolate will have
very little fat and lactose and will be about 90% protein (the protein
fractions are "isolated" from the rest of the material).
On the other hand, a WPC made through protein filtration is vastly
inferior to an isolate with about 7% fat and lactose and only 75%
protein (The actual protein in WPC is usually pretty good, but who
wants to deal with all of the fat and lactose?) Interestingly, WPC
costs less than half of what an isolate costs. Unfortunately, both
products look and taste about the same so it becomes very hard to know
what you have--you basically have to trust the manufacturer
(supplement company) of the particular product.
Here's the picture--the industry through various articles in muscle
magazines touts the benefits and characteristics of a whey protein
ISOLATE and turns around and uses a CONCENTRATE. Tell me, who's the
wiser? The supplement companies, that's who, and they're a whole lot
richer to boot! Some manufacturers will put 98% WPC in their product
and then put in 1% of a hydrolyzed product (remember this tastes
horrible!) and 1% of an isolate. Then, they can legally claim all
types of stuff on their label-- di and tri peptides, ion-exchange,
blah, blah, blah!
What about the other available proteins--egg, casein, and soy? How do
these compare? First, let me state that all of the above proteins are
decent if processed correctly. Each will provide the body very
efficiently with the protein that it "needs". I would definitely stay
away from casein and egg white. Casein has been shown to have
detrimental effects on a person's cholesterol profile and egg white
protein tastes poorly, is expensive, and consists of about 10%
carbohydrates.
Before you say it, I know your response--"That's all wonderful, but
what is the best protein for me, a bodybuilder/weightlifter?" If you
were to use any ONE protein source then I would have to say that it's
a toss up between a soy isolate and a whey ISOLATE (you know, the one
that no one can buy.) WPC provides a good protein; however the
accompanying fat and carbs is something you do not want. If I had a
choice, I would pick a soy isolate. A soy isolate is inexpensive, has
the highest score on the PCDAAS, is very soluble if instantized, is
extremely bland (a good thing), IMPROVES kidney function (unlike any
other protein), is anticarcinogenic, is anti-estrogenic, lowers LDL
(bad) and raises HDL (good) cholesterol, IMPROVES THYROID FUNCTION,
etc, etc--the list goes on and on. But best of all, unlike whey
isolate, pure soy isolates exist.
6. Soy Protein Isolate benefits for Bodybuilders
Animal research suggests some great advantages of using soy protein
isolate as a bodybuilding supplement. Research has shown that the
isoflavone daidzein found in soy-protein isolate might have a gender
specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone production. Lab animals
experienced testosterone and growth hormone excretion as well as
muscle growth in males, while the female animals experienced a
decrease in these hormones and fat loss.
Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent
phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen"
(about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol).
This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like
daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for
available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor
sites daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to
and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached,
estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further
minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many
researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to
a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and
prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription
drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)--an anti-estrogen staple in the
bodybuilding community.
Research also indicates that the soy-protein isolates may reduce
nitrogen loss and keep you in a positive nitrogen balance to better
facilitate muscle growth. The human body can only repair and build
muscles when it has a positive nitrogen balance.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Of particular interest to the bodybuilder is Soy Isolates high
concentration of the amino acids glutamine and arginine. These two
aminos are extremely important to a body builder for their ability to
release growth hormone, aid in immune system functions, and for their
ability to speed muscle cell recovery.
Glutamine (per 100g)
Soy
10.5g
Milk Protein
8.8g
Whey
4.9g
Many bodybuilders understand the importance of the essential amino
acid L- glutamine to their muscle building supplementation. What many
bodybuilders don't
know is that soy protein isolate has the highest concentration of
glutamine among protein sources-over twice that of whey protein! (7)
Glutamine has been used for years in hospitals to speed muscle cell
recovery and improve maintenance of muscle mass during periods of
starvation, infection, and exercise trauma. ( Glutamine
supplementation has been shown to promote muscle glycogen
accumulation, which has been linked to an increase in muscle protein
synthesis. (10) Glutamine has also shown the ability to increase
muscle cell volume through the process of cellular hydration. (11)
Glutamine supplementation in as little as 2 grams per day has been
shown to increase plasma growth hormone levels. This increase in
growth hormone has been shown to help shift the fuel for muscle from
glucose to fatty acids. (9) Research has suggested that a bodybuilder
should consume between 8 - 15 grams of glutamine each day.
Supplementing 3-5 grams of glutamine 3 times per day has been shown to
elicit a positive response without stimulating the excretion of
glutamine in the urine.
Arginine (per 100g)
Soy
7.6g
Beef
6.3g
Egg
5.8g
Cassein
3.7g
Whey
2.9g
L-Arginine is another important amino acid with respects to body
building. Arginine plays several roles in the body such as fighting
mental and physical fatigue, but its
main job is to assist with growth. This amino acid promotes the
release of two highly anabolic hormones, insulin and growth hormone.
Arginine promotes gains further by assisting in recovery from post
workout muscle trauma through its ability to speed tissue healing.
This amino acid aids in the detoxification of the liver by removing
ammonium from the body. Arginine has also shown the ability to lower
LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Arginine is used
in the medical treatment of angina, congestive heart failure, male
infertility and wound healing. Soy isolate protein contains higher
amounts of this important amino acid than any other protein source.
As a hard training bodybuilder, your body needs protein every 2 -2 1/2
hours even if you may not think you need it. The human body does not
store protein long term as it does for fat and carbohydrates. Instead,
your body holds amino acids in three pools that provide the body's
necessary protein for fuel. These pools are constantly in a state of
flux and are replenished either from dietary protein or the breakdown
of muscle. It is extremely important to keep these amino acid pools
topped off through the feeding of protein every 2 - 2 1/2 hours. When
feeding stops, there is a fall in protein synthesis and a rise in
protein breakdown. This translates into a loss of lean body mass after
extended periods without protein.
7. Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters
For years, bodybuilding gurus have recommended the use of soy protein
for pre-contest bodybuilders who need to shed body fat while keeping
as much lean muscle as possible. Normally when the body is forced into
a low calorie diet program, it reacts by slowing down your metabolic
rate. This will make it increasingly more difficult to lose body fat.
Soy-protein isolate helps lessen this effect through several different
pathways. First, soy-protein isolate has been found to enhance
endogenous production of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), thyroxin
(T4), and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroxin is the main player in the
regulation of your metabolic rate. The more thyroxin you have the
faster your metabolism will be. A faster metabolism insures that more
of the food you eat will be used as fuel and less will be stored as
fat, an important advantage to any dieter.
Another way soy accelerates fat loss is with its unique concentration
of amino acids. Soy-protein isolate has the highest concentration of
amino acids in what is called the "critical cluster". This cluster of
amino acids contains the three branch chain amino acids (BCAA's) and
two essential aminos - glutamine and arginine. These critical amino
acids help a bodybuilder spare muscle while losing body fat during a
pre-contest diet. Any time you diet, your body tries to break down
muscle glycogen in an effort to provide the body with more calories.
In fact, your body will often try to use broken down muscle for fuel
before it uses stored body fat. This is called muscle catabolism or
muscle breakdown. These three branch chain amino acids are the first
amino acids that are used for fuel when your body begins muscle
catabolism. If you have a high amount of these branch chain amino
acids in your diet, your body will first use these for fuel before it
breaks down your stored muscle.
8. The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate
Now that we know that soy is a quality protein source, what health
benefits can soy protein bring to its consumer? The intake of soyfoods
has long been associated with a reduced risk for certain cancers.
Research has suggested that phytic acid and protease inhibitors, two
of the nonnutritive compounds in soybeans, contribute to the observed
anticarcinogenic effects of consuming soy. (1) Residents of the United
States and the United Kingdom, as a whole, consume the smallest
amounts of soyfoods but have the highest instances of breast and
prostate cancer. Japanese residents in comparison are the largest
consumers of soyfoods and have the lowest instances of these cancers.
(3) Researchers point to the isoflavones genistein and daidzein, which
are found exclusively in soy and soy protein isolate, as the major
components behind soy's anti-carcinogenic effects.(2)
Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to promote bone health,
which in turn aids in the prevention of Osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is
a chronic disease characterized by a decrease in bone density, which
results in abnormally porous and fragile bones. It has been suggested
that a high protein diet may increase the excretion of calcium in the
urine, which can lead to this health condition. Studies have shown
that not all proteins have the same effect on calcium excretion.
Compared with animal protein, soy does not result in an increased loss
of calcium in the urine thus promoting a more optimal calcium balance.
(4) In addition, the isoflavones in soy protein have been shown to
increase both bone mineral content and bone mineral density which will
improve the health of abnormally porous bones.(5)
Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to effectively lower LDL
cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Experts agree that
these cholesterol-lowering effects can be achieved through the
consumption of as little as 25 grams of soy isolate protein each day.
The experts point to the high levels of the amino acid arginine for
this lipid lowering effect. (6) LDL cholesterol is one of the primary
factors behind progressive atherosclerosis. This medical condition is
caused by the progressive build up of plaque that clogs blood flow in
the arteries.
Soy protein has also shown the ability to improve kidney function.
While scientists agree that the high protein intake of bodybuilders is
necessary for proper muscle building and repair, they also agree that
this diet will place additional stress on the kidneys. Studies of both
humans and animals have shown that soy proteins filter more easily in
the kidneys thereby reducing their workload. In 1993, a study was
performed on the Romanian Olympic swimming and rowing teams. In this
study, the athletes were supplemented with 1.5 grams per kg of
bodyweight of soy protein along with their dietary protein (2 grams
per kg of bodyweight) per day. This additional protein showed no
detrimental effects on kidney function and actually showed from 5 to
46 percent improvement in kidney function.
Also another thing people have said with out any backing of any medical journals is the interference of amino acids in the soy while taking medication. To this date there is no sound science to support those claims.
References
(1)(2) Messina M, Messina V. Increasing use of soyfoods and their
potential role in cancer prevention. J Am Diet Assoc 1991;91:836-840
(3) American Cancer Society. Cancer Facts & Figures-1996.
(4)(5)(6)Ross PD. osteoporosis: Frequency, consequences and risk
factors. Archives of Internal Med 1996's 156.1399-1411.
(7)((9) Bulus, N., Pysysiological Importance of Glutamine.
Metabolism Vol.38, No.8, August 1989.
(10)(11) Parry-Billings, M. Effects of changes in cell volume on the
rates of glutamine and alanine release from rat skeletal muscle in
vitro. Biomedical Journal, 276, 1991.
concentration of the amino acids glutamine and arginine. These two
aminos are extremely important to a body builder for their ability to
release growth hormone, aid in immune system functions, and for their
ability to speed muscle cell recovery.
Glutamine (per 100g)
Soy
10.5g
Milk Protein
8.8g
Whey
4.9g
Many bodybuilders understand the importance of the essential amino
acid L- glutamine to their muscle building supplementation. What many
bodybuilders don't
know is that soy protein isolate has the highest concentration of
glutamine among protein sources-over twice that of whey protein! (7)
Glutamine has been used for years in hospitals to speed muscle cell
recovery and improve maintenance of muscle mass during periods of
starvation, infection, and exercise trauma. ( Glutamine
supplementation has been shown to promote muscle glycogen
accumulation, which has been linked to an increase in muscle protein
synthesis. (10) Glutamine has also shown the ability to increase
muscle cell volume through the process of cellular hydration. (11)
Glutamine supplementation in as little as 2 grams per day has been
shown to increase plasma growth hormone levels. This increase in
growth hormone has been shown to help shift the fuel for muscle from
glucose to fatty acids. (9) Research has suggested that a bodybuilder
should consume between 8 - 15 grams of glutamine each day.
Supplementing 3-5 grams of glutamine 3 times per day has been shown to
elicit a positive response without stimulating the excretion of
glutamine in the urine.
Arginine (per 100g)
Soy
7.6g
Beef
6.3g
Egg
5.8g
Cassein
3.7g
Whey
2.9g
L-Arginine is another important amino acid with respects to body
building. Arginine plays several roles in the body such as fighting
mental and physical fatigue, but its
main job is to assist with growth. This amino acid promotes the
release of two highly anabolic hormones, insulin and growth hormone.
Arginine promotes gains further by assisting in recovery from post
workout muscle trauma through its ability to speed tissue healing.
This amino acid aids in the detoxification of the liver by removing
ammonium from the body. Arginine has also shown the ability to lower
LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Arginine is used
in the medical treatment of angina, congestive heart failure, male
infertility and wound healing. Soy isolate protein contains higher
amounts of this important amino acid than any other protein source.
As a hard training bodybuilder, your body needs protein every 2 -2 1/2
hours even if you may not think you need it. The human body does not
store protein long term as it does for fat and carbohydrates. Instead,
your body holds amino acids in three pools that provide the body's
necessary protein for fuel. These pools are constantly in a state of
flux and are replenished either from dietary protein or the breakdown
of muscle. It is extremely important to keep these amino acid pools
topped off through the feeding of protein every 2 - 2 1/2 hours. When
feeding stops, there is a fall in protein synthesis and a rise in
protein breakdown. This translates into a loss of lean body mass after
extended periods without protein.
7. Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters
For years, bodybuilding gurus have recommended the use of soy protein
for pre-contest bodybuilders who need to shed body fat while keeping
as much lean muscle as possible. Normally when the body is forced into
a low calorie diet program, it reacts by slowing down your metabolic
rate. This will make it increasingly more difficult to lose body fat.
Soy-protein isolate helps lessen this effect through several different
pathways. First, soy-protein isolate has been found to enhance
endogenous production of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), thyroxin
(T4), and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroxin is the main player in the
regulation of your metabolic rate. The more thyroxin you have the
faster your metabolism will be. A faster metabolism insures that more
of the food you eat will be used as fuel and less will be stored as
fat, an important advantage to any dieter.
Another way soy accelerates fat loss is with its unique concentration
of amino acids. Soy-protein isolate has the highest concentration of
amino acids in what is called the "critical cluster". This cluster of
amino acids contains the three branch chain amino acids (BCAA's) and
two essential aminos - glutamine and arginine. These critical amino
acids help a bodybuilder spare muscle while losing body fat during a
pre-contest diet. Any time you diet, your body tries to break down
muscle glycogen in an effort to provide the body with more calories.
In fact, your body will often try to use broken down muscle for fuel
before it uses stored body fat. This is called muscle catabolism or
muscle breakdown. These three branch chain amino acids are the first
amino acids that are used for fuel when your body begins muscle
catabolism. If you have a high amount of these branch chain amino
acids in your diet, your body will first use these for fuel before it
breaks down your stored muscle.
8. The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate
Now that we know that soy is a quality protein source, what health
benefits can soy protein bring to its consumer? The intake of soyfoods
has long been associated with a reduced risk for certain cancers.
Research has suggested that phytic acid and protease inhibitors, two
of the nonnutritive compounds in soybeans, contribute to the observed
anticarcinogenic effects of consuming soy. (1) Residents of the United
States and the United Kingdom, as a whole, consume the smallest
amounts of soyfoods but have the highest instances of breast and
prostate cancer. Japanese residents in comparison are the largest
consumers of soyfoods and have the lowest instances of these cancers.
(3) Researchers point to the isoflavones genistein and daidzein, which
are found exclusively in soy and soy protein isolate, as the major
components behind soy's anti-carcinogenic effects.(2)
Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to promote bone health,
which in turn aids in the prevention of Osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is
a chronic disease characterized by a decrease in bone density, which
results in abnormally porous and fragile bones. It has been suggested
that a high protein diet may increase the excretion of calcium in the
urine, which can lead to this health condition. Studies have shown
that not all proteins have the same effect on calcium excretion.
Compared with animal protein, soy does not result in an increased loss
of calcium in the urine thus promoting a more optimal calcium balance.
(4) In addition, the isoflavones in soy protein have been shown to
increase both bone mineral content and bone mineral density which will
improve the health of abnormally porous bones.(5)
Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to effectively lower LDL
cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Experts agree that
these cholesterol-lowering effects can be achieved through the
consumption of as little as 25 grams of soy isolate protein each day.
The experts point to the high levels of the amino acid arginine for
this lipid lowering effect. (6) LDL cholesterol is one of the primary
factors behind progressive atherosclerosis. This medical condition is
caused by the progressive build up of plaque that clogs blood flow in
the arteries.
Soy protein has also shown the ability to improve kidney function.
While scientists agree that the high protein intake of bodybuilders is
necessary for proper muscle building and repair, they also agree that
this diet will place additional stress on the kidneys. Studies of both
humans and animals have shown that soy proteins filter more easily in
the kidneys thereby reducing their workload. In 1993, a study was
performed on the Romanian Olympic swimming and rowing teams. In this
study, the athletes were supplemented with 1.5 grams per kg of
bodyweight of soy protein along with their dietary protein (2 grams
per kg of bodyweight) per day. This additional protein showed no
detrimental effects on kidney function and actually showed from 5 to
46 percent improvement in kidney function.
Also another thing people have said with out any backing of any medical journals is the interference of amino acids in the soy while taking medication. To this date there is no sound science to support those claims.
References
(1)(2) Messina M, Messina V. Increasing use of soyfoods and their
potential role in cancer prevention. J Am Diet Assoc 1991;91:836-840
(3) American Cancer Society. Cancer Facts & Figures-1996.
(4)(5)(6)Ross PD. osteoporosis: Frequency, consequences and risk
factors. Archives of Internal Med 1996's 156.1399-1411.
(7)((9) Bulus, N., Pysysiological Importance of Glutamine.
Metabolism Vol.38, No.8, August 1989.
(10)(11) Parry-Billings, M. Effects of changes in cell volume on the
rates of glutamine and alanine release from rat skeletal muscle in
vitro. Biomedical Journal, 276, 1991.
BodyWizard
Registered User
I'll see your "Elite" fitness, and raise you an AM: 
Invalid Link Removed
Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.
Invalid Link Removed
Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
I'll see your "Elite" fitness, and raise you an AM:
Invalid Link Removed
Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.
I consume soy protein and my normal free testosterone level is 0.3 to 2 pg/mL.
BodyWizard
Registered User
and your age is...?
Not trying to tussle w/ ya, bro - different strokes & all that: I'm still dealing w/ VAT accumulated during an illness, and I've been struggling to get estrogen/aromatase under control & rebuild normal test levels. The article I linked is the thing that got me thinking about soy in a different way, and it's been a helpful/productive way of looking at it *for me*...and I suspect would be for anyone who ended up similarly.
Not trying to tussle w/ ya, bro - different strokes & all that: I'm still dealing w/ VAT accumulated during an illness, and I've been struggling to get estrogen/aromatase under control & rebuild normal test levels. The article I linked is the thing that got me thinking about soy in a different way, and it's been a helpful/productive way of looking at it *for me*...and I suspect would be for anyone who ended up similarly.
DreamWeaver
Legend
I don't trust it, I never liked how those vegetarians looked 
BIGSWIN19
New member
Never...
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
strategicmove
Legend
Despite the influence of the whey-lobby, supplementation with soy protein has been shown to neither reduce serum testosterone levels nor inhibit lean mass. As a matter of fact, a soy-whey combination is more effective than a whey-only or soy-only alternative, in terms of hormone modulation. You might want to see the following recent (2007) study published in the Journal of the International Association of Sports Nutrition: Invalid Link Removed
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 4.
Published online 2007 July 23. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-4-4.
PMCID: PMC1997115
Copyright © 2007 Kalman et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones
Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA
corresponding authorCorresponding author.
Douglas Kalman: [email protected]; Samantha Feldman: [email protected]; Michele Martinez: [email protected]; Diane R Krieger: [email protected]; Mark J Tallon: [email protected]
Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.
Abstract
Background
Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.
Methods
For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.
Results
Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).
Conclusion
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 4.
Published online 2007 July 23. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-4-4.
PMCID: PMC1997115
Copyright © 2007 Kalman et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones
Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA
corresponding authorCorresponding author.
Douglas Kalman: [email protected]; Samantha Feldman: [email protected]; Michele Martinez: [email protected]; Diane R Krieger: [email protected]; Mark J Tallon: [email protected]
Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.
Abstract
Background
Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.
Methods
For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.
Results
Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).
Conclusion
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
MrBrightside
Active member
Heck yes. I can keep using my soy!
Note: 200 posts! Yay
Note: 200 posts! Yay
Hyde12
Well-known member
Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer. Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+) (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones); or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones). For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement. Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone, sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione, androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and free testosterone concentrations by RIA. Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR) and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry. At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR expression but did not alter estrogen receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones. Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and androstenedione concentrations, and tended to suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is uncertain, these data show that AR expression in the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing prostate cancer.
PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer. Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+) (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones); or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones). For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement. Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone, sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione, androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and free testosterone concentrations by RIA. Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR) and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry. At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR expression but did not alter estrogen receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones. Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and androstenedione concentrations, and tended to suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is uncertain, these data show that AR expression in the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing prostate cancer.
PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hyde12
Well-known member
Department of Anatomy, Physiology and Pharmacology, 109 Greene Hall, Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama 36849, USA. [email protected]
The use of soy-based products in the diet of infants has raised concerns regarding the reproductive toxicity of genistein and daidzein, the predominant isoflavones in soybeans with estrogenic activity. Time-bred Long-Evans dams were fed diets containing 0, 5, 50, 500, or 1000 ppm of soy isoflavones from gestational d 12 until weaning at d 21 postpartum. Male rats in all groups were fed soy-free diets from postnatal d 21 until 90 d of age. The mean +/- SD concentration of unconjugated (i.e. biologically active) genistein and daidzein in serum from the group of dams maintained on the diet containing the highest amount of isoflavones (1000 ppm) were 17 +/- 27 and 56 +/- 30 nM, respectively, at d 21 postpartum. The concentrations were considerably greater in male offspring (genistein: 73 +/- 46 nM; daidzein: 106 +/- 53 nM). Although steroidogenesis was decreased in individual Leydig cells, male rats from the highest exposure group (1000 ppm diet) exhibited elevated serum levels of the sex steroid hormones androsterone at 21 d (control: 15 +/- 1.5 vs.28 +/- 3.5 ng/ml; P < 0.05) and testosterone at 90 d of age (control: 7.5 +/- 1 vs.17 +/- 2 ng/ml; P < 0.05). Testosterone secretion by immature Leydig cells, isolated from 35-d-old male rats, decreased on exposure to 0.1 nm genistein in vitro (control: 175 +/- 5 vs. 117 +/- 3 ng/10(6) cells per 24 h; P < 0.05), indicative of direct phytoestrogen action. Thus, phytoestrogens have the ability to regulate Leydig cells, and additional studies to assess potential adverse effects of dietary soy-based products on reproductive tract development in neonates are warranted.
PMID: 17569756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
The use of soy-based products in the diet of infants has raised concerns regarding the reproductive toxicity of genistein and daidzein, the predominant isoflavones in soybeans with estrogenic activity. Time-bred Long-Evans dams were fed diets containing 0, 5, 50, 500, or 1000 ppm of soy isoflavones from gestational d 12 until weaning at d 21 postpartum. Male rats in all groups were fed soy-free diets from postnatal d 21 until 90 d of age. The mean +/- SD concentration of unconjugated (i.e. biologically active) genistein and daidzein in serum from the group of dams maintained on the diet containing the highest amount of isoflavones (1000 ppm) were 17 +/- 27 and 56 +/- 30 nM, respectively, at d 21 postpartum. The concentrations were considerably greater in male offspring (genistein: 73 +/- 46 nM; daidzein: 106 +/- 53 nM). Although steroidogenesis was decreased in individual Leydig cells, male rats from the highest exposure group (1000 ppm diet) exhibited elevated serum levels of the sex steroid hormones androsterone at 21 d (control: 15 +/- 1.5 vs.28 +/- 3.5 ng/ml; P < 0.05) and testosterone at 90 d of age (control: 7.5 +/- 1 vs.17 +/- 2 ng/ml; P < 0.05). Testosterone secretion by immature Leydig cells, isolated from 35-d-old male rats, decreased on exposure to 0.1 nm genistein in vitro (control: 175 +/- 5 vs. 117 +/- 3 ng/10(6) cells per 24 h; P < 0.05), indicative of direct phytoestrogen action. Thus, phytoestrogens have the ability to regulate Leydig cells, and additional studies to assess potential adverse effects of dietary soy-based products on reproductive tract development in neonates are warranted.
PMID: 17569756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hyde12
Well-known member
Department of Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry
of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681, USA. [email protected]
PURPOSE: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days -7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42. A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-beta and ER-alpha in vitro. RESULTS: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(+/-22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder. Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-beta using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast. CONCLUSION: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-beta agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study.
PMID: 17416779 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681, USA. [email protected]
PURPOSE: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days -7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42. A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-beta and ER-alpha in vitro. RESULTS: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(+/-22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder. Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-beta using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast. CONCLUSION: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-beta agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study.
PMID: 17416779 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
strategicmove
Legend
Hyde12; said:
...................
strategicmove
Legend
Hyde12; said:
...............
strategicmove
Legend
Hyde12; said:
The conclusion here is far from admissible.
Hyde12
Well-known member
Yes, but there is enough evidence present for me to stay away from using large amounts of soy. I do feel, however that soy in small amounts in a mixture of whey and milk is OK.
Hyde12
Well-known member
This study is hard to interpret because some of the subjects were also consuming whey protein with the soy. How do we know if was the soy and not the whey that kept the serum testosterone normal. Also, this study reinforces the benefit of Whey due to the fact that it decreased estradiol.
Hyde12
Well-known member
another study on the anti-androgen effects of soy. Yes, at the end of the study, testosterone was increased, but only because DHT was decreased.
Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.
Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 d each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.
Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(2):206-10.
Related Articles, Links
Regulation of male sex hormone levels by soy isoflavones in rats. Yi MA, Son HM, Lee JS, Kwon CS, Lim JK, Yeo YK, Park YS, Kim JS.
Department of Animal Science and Biotechnology, Kyungpook National University, Taegu 702-701, South Korea.
Several studies have suggested that soybean intake is associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer. However, the mechanism of prostate cancer prevention by soybeans remains unclear. Because prostate cancer is reported to have an association with an increased level of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and soybean isoflavones are known to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase, which is involved in the conversion of testosterone to DHT, the effects of soybean extract and isoflavones on the plasma levels of male sex hormones were investigated using male rats. In Experiment I, Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets with and without soy flour; in Experiment II, rats were fed diets containing 2% soy methanol extract or 0.2% semipurified isoflavones or a control diet. The study showed a reduction of plasma DHT along with an increase in total plasma androgen in rats fed soy flour or semipurified isoflavones for 1 wk. These results suggest that soy isoflavone intake may reduce plasma DHT level.
PMID: 12416261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.
Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.
Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 d each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.
Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(2):206-10.
Related Articles, Links
Regulation of male sex hormone levels by soy isoflavones in rats. Yi MA, Son HM, Lee JS, Kwon CS, Lim JK, Yeo YK, Park YS, Kim JS.
Department of Animal Science and Biotechnology, Kyungpook National University, Taegu 702-701, South Korea.
Several studies have suggested that soybean intake is associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer. However, the mechanism of prostate cancer prevention by soybeans remains unclear. Because prostate cancer is reported to have an association with an increased level of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and soybean isoflavones are known to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase, which is involved in the conversion of testosterone to DHT, the effects of soybean extract and isoflavones on the plasma levels of male sex hormones were investigated using male rats. In Experiment I, Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets with and without soy flour; in Experiment II, rats were fed diets containing 2% soy methanol extract or 0.2% semipurified isoflavones or a control diet. The study showed a reduction of plasma DHT along with an increase in total plasma androgen in rats fed soy flour or semipurified isoflavones for 1 wk. These results suggest that soy isoflavone intake may reduce plasma DHT level.
PMID: 12416261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
strategicmove
Legend
Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!TheMyth; said:
My protein shake is a whey-soy combination. About 50% each way. Depending on my protein intake from other sources, I can do about 100g (=50g whey and 50g soy) daily.
Hyde12
Well-known member
Nice side effect for women
Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome Associated with Increased
Soy Intake
Alison Amsterdam, MD, Nadeem Abu-Rustum, MD, Jeanne Carter, PhD, and
Michael Krychman, MD
All Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of Gynecology, New York, NY, USA
Corresponding Author:
Alison Amsterdam, MD, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of
Gynecology, 1275 York Avenue MRI-1007B New York, New York 10021, USA. Tel: (212) 639-2000; Fax: (212) 717-3879;
E-mail: [email protected]
A B S T R A C T
Introduction.
Persistent sexual arousal syndrome is an uncommon sexual complaint. Patients with
this disorder can be distressed by the escalation of tension in the pelvic region and the prevailing
necessity to diminish the pressure by self-stimulation. Patients frequently suffer from guilt or shame
and often do not seek medical care. There are many potential causes of this disorder; however, a
definitive etiology has yet to be elucidated.
Case.
The patient is a 44-year-old female who presented to her gynecologist for evaluation of
dysmenorrhea and menometrorrhagia. During the review of systems, the patient reported 5–
6 months of increased pelvic tension, not associated with an increase in desire that required her to
self-stimulate to orgasm approximately 15 times daily. Upon further inquiry, the patient disclosed
that her dietary regimen included soy intake in excess of 4 pounds per day that began approximately
1 month prior to the onset of symptoms.
Results.
Treatment consisted of supportive counseling and dietary modification. At the 3-month
follow-up visit, the patient’s menstrual difficulties and sexual complaints resolved.
Conclusions.
Although no known cause or cure of persistent sexual arousal syndrome has been
identified to date, the success of reducing dietary of phytoestrogens in this patient may provide
insight into the etiology of the disorder and suggest potential treatments.
Key Words.
Female Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome; Female Causes and Treatment of Orgasmic
Disorders; Female Modification of Reversible Causes
Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome Associated with Increased
Soy Intake
Alison Amsterdam, MD, Nadeem Abu-Rustum, MD, Jeanne Carter, PhD, and
Michael Krychman, MD
All Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of Gynecology, New York, NY, USA
Corresponding Author:
Alison Amsterdam, MD, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of
Gynecology, 1275 York Avenue MRI-1007B New York, New York 10021, USA. Tel: (212) 639-2000; Fax: (212) 717-3879;
E-mail: [email protected]
A B S T R A C T
Introduction.
Persistent sexual arousal syndrome is an uncommon sexual complaint. Patients with
this disorder can be distressed by the escalation of tension in the pelvic region and the prevailing
necessity to diminish the pressure by self-stimulation. Patients frequently suffer from guilt or shame
and often do not seek medical care. There are many potential causes of this disorder; however, a
definitive etiology has yet to be elucidated.
Case.
The patient is a 44-year-old female who presented to her gynecologist for evaluation of
dysmenorrhea and menometrorrhagia. During the review of systems, the patient reported 5–
6 months of increased pelvic tension, not associated with an increase in desire that required her to
self-stimulate to orgasm approximately 15 times daily. Upon further inquiry, the patient disclosed
that her dietary regimen included soy intake in excess of 4 pounds per day that began approximately
1 month prior to the onset of symptoms.
Results.
Treatment consisted of supportive counseling and dietary modification. At the 3-month
follow-up visit, the patient’s menstrual difficulties and sexual complaints resolved.
Conclusions.
Although no known cause or cure of persistent sexual arousal syndrome has been
identified to date, the success of reducing dietary of phytoestrogens in this patient may provide
insight into the etiology of the disorder and suggest potential treatments.
Key Words.
Female Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome; Female Causes and Treatment of Orgasmic
Disorders; Female Modification of Reversible Causes
OCCFan023
Registered User
Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!
My protein shake is a whey-soy combination. About 50% each way. Depending on my protein intake from other sources, I can do about 100g (=50g whey and 50g soy) daily.
Curious strat. How come not use a whey/casein mix? I have nothing against soy in limited amounts (although don't use it since I don't go out of my way to purchase it) but it seems with the casein you will get the beneficial slow release of AA (or even a soy casein mix).
strategicmove
Legend
The idea was to figure out if whey alone, soy alone, or a whey-soy combination was more effective from an anabolic point of view. If you take your time to read the entire study (via the link), you will realize that the soy-whey combination turned out superior to whey alone and soy alone. If soy were complete crap, that conclusion would not have emerged. And, if whey-only were the best of the best, then the whey-soy combination would not have turned out better than pure whey.Hyde12; said:
I usually try to avoid such arguments where people form their opinions based mostly on word-of-mouth and weak anecdotal evidence. I have been using whey-soy since more than half a decade. If soy were truly "feminizing", I would not have anything close to my current physique.
Just like the whey-only lobby, I am a die-hard whey-soy user and have no intention of dropping soy from the mix. The whey/soy discussion always reminds me of the prejudice against fenugreek. Few realize it has many more potent steriodal saponins and testosterone precursors than tribulus, not to mention its positive impact on luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. Even fewer appreciate the insulin-mimicking property of its 4-hydroxy-isoleucine (4-HIL), and so on. I use fenugreek extracted for steriodal saponins and 4-HIL, irrespective of the tribulus preference of many.
strategicmove
Legend
Casein is fine. No doubt. If you use casein, then you may not need a frequent use of protein shake. I can take a whey-soy combination, in principle, every three or so hours. With casein, the frequency would be less. There is no qualitative loss. If I want to take a slow protein, I prefer egg white. It delivers all the standard goodies. In addition, it is by far the best definition protein around. Lean, dry muscles at their best!OCCFan023; said:
OCCFan023
Registered User
Yea I typically use a whey/casein mix (or just whey with cottage cheese) as my pre workout meal (about 1-1.5 hours prior) since its a lengthy time to training and also my training is above average in length.
My favorite custom mix from True Protein is 33% of Whey Isolate, Casein, and Egg White protein (only reason it isn't a staple is it is pricey). IMO that is pinnacle for my protein supplementation. I definitely (as does the majority on here) have nutrient overlaps between meals due to my meal frequency.
I'll leave ya alone now though and let ya get back to your guys soy discussion.
theBIGcactus
Member
cool thanks for the input
BodyWizard
Registered User
oh, that's *GREAT*!!
"Thanks", I needed that....
"Thanks", I needed that....
Last edited:
JohnnyBGood
Member
Yeah, good one.