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Save $$$$ - Grapefruit Juice with your orals

Infer wat u will. It clearly says that u are not guilty of everything in the statement but some of it you are (not using the search function. I personally don't care what u do. Drink all the gfj u can get ur hands on but there is a reason why no one is talking about this....BECAUSE IT'S AND OLD IDEA. Had u used the search function you could have avoided this entire thread. Hell I. Think I might even have a thread that I started asking about something like this.

Also, not all my posts were personal attacks I said in my first one u should have used the search function (not a personal attack just a statement, and a very true statement) and yes this board is for people to ask questions but the fact still remains that too often threads are made that shouldn't be simply because the poster didn't use the search function. And I personally don't know about your other cycle your planning because after that unhealthy 80 lb. bulk you did I've got no intrest in following your progress. And yes it was unhealthy 80 lbs in 11 months puts a lot of strain on your body. This is bodybuilding its not about instant gratification, small gains are the key to quality managable gains, not 80 high fat lbs in under a year.

But I'm sure you're going to do wat u want even though there is a reason why this idea never caught on. And even though this reason(s) has been explained to u I'm sure you'll try it.

I'm not coming back here to check your response because I'm sure the point I'm trying to make and the points others have made haven't sunk in . But if you want to beat a dead horse still feel free. Grow up and listen to the advice that other highly respected members have given most of us are only trying to help. And sometimes yea it might seem rude but suck it up and take the lesson and use the search. Peace.
 
n8te said:
Infer wat u will. It clearly says that u are not guilty of everything in the statement but some of it you are (not using the search function. I personally don't care what u do. Drink all the gfj u can get ur hands on but there is a reason why no one is talking about this....BECAUSE IT'S AND OLD IDEA. Had u used the search function you could have avoided this entire thread. Hell I. Think I might even have a thread that I started asking about something like this.

Also, not all my posts were personal attacks I said in my first one u should have used the search function (not a personal attack just a statement, and a very true statement) and yes this board is for people to ask questions but the fact still remains that too often threads are made that shouldn't be simply because the poster didn't use the search function. And I personally don't know about your other cycle your planning because after that unhealthy 80 lb. bulk you did I've got no intrest in following your progress. And yes it was unhealthy 80 lbs in 11 months puts a lot of strain on your body. This is bodybuilding its not about instant gratification, small gains are the key to quality managable gains, not 80 high fat lbs in under a year.

But I'm sure you're going to do wat u want even though there is a reason why this idea never caught on. And even though this reason(s) has been explained to u I'm sure you'll try it.

I'm not coming back here to check your response because I'm sure the point I'm trying to make and the points others have made haven't sunk in . But if you want to beat a dead horse still feel free. Grow up and listen to the advice that other highly respected members have given most of us are only trying to help. And sometimes yea it might seem rude but suck it up and take the lesson and use the search. Peace.
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With all due respect all you have said is it a "bad idea" you have not validated this with one single fact and as I said before I did research this and I have an arsenal of data to support the argument. Was just wanted to see if you were going to back up your claims and this protocol is not dead at all
If you started such a thread in the past I would love to see it ? Ill use the search function and see if we can find it
 
Random info on this topic that I remember from years ago. Like others have said this is old news...but I'll post for fun anyways:

dinoiii said:
I cannot offer an answer to your question with certainty as I have little experience with both the product and one of the potential ingredients: Emblica officinalis. But, we can however, pontificate a little, so please indulge me and I will address each ingredient one-by-one.

Emblica

While a 50% extract of Emblica officinalis (EO) seems to exert a hepatoprotective effect, its relationship to the steroidal nucleus with cycles is unclear. There seems to be the most research available with the anti-tuberculosis subset of drugs (rifampicin, isoniazid, and pyrazinamide), which don’t translate identically. For instance, there are 3 mechanisms hypothesized for aiding EO’s effects:
(1) membrane stabilization
(2) antioxidative properties
(3) Cytochrome p450 2E1 inhibition

The first two are suggested as least likely and the cytochrome effects do NOT involve 3A4 (predominate offering in AAS metabolism) so I am uncertain it would offer any type of aid in that regard and have no blood test backing here.

I am unaware after visiting toxicology reports if any directly occur secondary to use of the EO itself. And a rather neat thing is that the Estrogen-channeler is present in EO (ascorbigen - which is actually I3C + Vitamin C), which actually might make it more viable on cycle for aromatizable agents (unsure).

I don’t care for the tannins present (Emblicanin A&B) which are the hypothesized anti-oxidants due to how they work and if you do NOT possess asthma, the rationale for this agent seems likely moot overall.


Bioperine

This agent is tricky as when used with certain compounds, it increases absorption…yet others it DECREASES it. I am unaware of quality research with steroid molecules for adequate appraisal, but it certainly seems like companies put this in virtually everything these days for the sake of what it does.

Piperine strongly inhibits hepatic arylhydrocarbon hydroxylase and UDP-glucuronyl transferase activities, thus prolonging hexabartital sleeping time and zoxazolamine paralysis time in mice, but again the translation to humans is very limited. Piperine enhanced the bioavailability of oxyphenylbutazone and thereby potentiated its anti-inflammatory activity in rats – again, you might start to see a theme.

Now, there are some nutrients (some basic vitamins/minerals) that it has been shown to increase the absorption of, but the translation to steroidal nuclei is so much less clear.


DHB

This may be the most important and/or minimally most-directly related item in the formula, however – those that have tried it concurrently with cycles don’t tend to report phenomenal results.

5 furocoumarins isolated from grapefruit juice were evaluated at different concentration on cytochrome P450 3A4, cytochrome P450 2C9, and cytochrome P450 2D6 isoenzyme activity. Among the 5 furocoumarins tested, the inhibitory potency was in the order of paradisin A > dihydroxybergamottin > bergamottin > bergaptol > geranylcoumarin at 0.1 μM to 0.1 mM concentrations. The IC50 value was lowest for paradisin A for CYP3A4 with 0.11 μM followed by DHB for CYP2C9 with 1.58 μM, so I think there is significant application – however, the translation into what a real-world IN VIVO dose would include is unclear.



D_
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dinoiii said:
It may very well follow that pardisin A (3A4) is the ingredient with more rationale for employment here rather than DHB (2C9).


D_
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This thread is full of back and forth:

Invalid Link Removed . lean bulk . com/forum/ask-dr-houser/2721-naringin-ai.html

There is so much more. But I'm feeling lazy now. It's something that should be used with caution however.
 
sanchezgreg18 said:
good post royd thats the AX trisorbagen breakdown . a product i mentioned earlier in this thread
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Doesnt this prove my point? FACT The precise chemical compound in grapefruit that causes the interaction has not been identified

Yet supplement companies continue to produce products that claim to mimic this effect

OHHH and we if we to really get technical you should read this study

Metabolism of anabolic steroids in humans: synthesis of 6 beta-hydroxy metabolites of 4-chloro-1,2-dehydro-17 alpha-methyltestosterone, fluoxymesterone, and metandienone.

Schänzer W, Horning S, Donike M.
Institut für Biochemie, Deutschen Sporthochschule Köln, Germany.

Hydroxylation at position 6 beta testosterone I (17 beta-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one) and the anabolic steroids 17 alpha-methyltestosterone II (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methylandrost-4-en-3-one), metandienone III (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one), 4-chloro-1,2-dehydro-17 alpha-methyltestosterone IV (4-chloro-17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one), and fluoxymesterone V (9-fluoro-11 beta, 17 beta-dihydroxy-17 alpha-methylandrost-4-en-3-one) was achieved via light-induced autooxidation of the corresponding trimethysilyl 3,5-dienol ethers dissolved in isopropanol or ethanol. The reaction further yielded the 6 alpha-hydroxy isomer in low amounts. The 6 beta-hydroxy isomer of I-V and the 6 alpha-hydroxy isomers of I, III, and IV were isolated and characterized by 1H and 13C NMR, high-performance liquid chromatography, gas chromatography, and mass spectrometry. Human excretion studies with single administered doses of boldenone (17 beta-hydroxyandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one), 4-chloro-1,2-dehydro-17 alpha-methyltestosterone, fluoxymesterone, metandienone, 17 alpha-methyltestosterone, and [16,16,17-2H3] testosterone showed that 6 beta-hydroxylation is the major metabolic pathway in the metabolism of 4-chloro-1,2-dehydro-17 alpha-methyltestosterone, fluoxymesterone, and metandienone, whereas for boldenone, 17 alpha-methyltestosterone, and testosterone, 6 beta-hydroxylation is negligible.

PMID: 8539789 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
lyfespan said:
why would you buy this when bulk bergamottin can just be purchased for half the cost?
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where are the studies that this work? Also GFJ is good for you

Heres another study that basically states the same thing as the one above


Metabolism of anabolic steroids by recombinant human cytochrome P450 enzymes. Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric determination of metabolites.

Rendic S, Nolteernsting E, Schänzer W.
Faculty of Pharmacy and Biochemistry, University of Zagreb, Croatia.

Metabolism of steroid hormones with anabolic properties was studied in vitro using human recombinant CYP3A4, CYP2C9 and 2B6 enzymes. The enzyme formats used for CYP3A4 and CYP2C9 were insect cell microsomes expressing human CYP enzymes and purified recombinant human CYP enzymes in a reconstituted system. CYP3A4 enzyme formats incubated with anabolic steroids, testosterone, 17alpha-methyltestosterone, metandienone, boldenone and 4-chloro-1,2-dehydro-17alpha-methyltestosterone, produced 6beta-hydroxyl metabolites identified as trimethylsilyl (TMS)-ethers by a gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) method. When the same formats of CYP2C9 were incubated with the anabolic steroids, no 6beta-hydroxyl metabolites were formed. Human lymphoblast cell microsomes expressing human CYP2B6 incubated with the steroids investigated produced traces of 6beta-hydroxyl metabolites with testosterone and 17alpha-methyltestosterone only. We suggest that the electronic effects of the 3-keto-4-ene structural moiety contribute to the selectivity within the active site of CYP3A4 enzyme resulting in selective 6beta-hydroxylation.PMID: 10630892 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
 
ever read the ingredient profile for mass tabs? or grow tabs? ever wonder why people got such great results from theses? BERGAMOTTIN, but using this needs supplementation as well in order to sustain the loop. when you supplement with berg, it uses the bodies store of SAMe, and once this is depleated you then get high levels of homocysteine, which is not a good thing.
 
lyfespan said:
ever read the ingredient profile for mass tabs? or grow tabs? ever wonder why people got such great results from theses? BERGAMOTTIN, but using this needs supplementation as well in order to sustain the loop. when you supplement with berg, it uses the bodies store of SAMe, and once this is depleated you then get high levels of homocysteine, which is not a good thing.
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Understood

Cytochrome P450 3A4-catalyzed testosterone 6beta-hydroxylation stereochemistry, kinetic deuterium isotope effects, and rate-limiting steps.

Krauser JA, Guengerich FP.
Department of Biochemistry and Center in Molecular Toxicology, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, Nashville, Tennessee 37232-0146, USA.

Testosterone 6beta-hydroxylation is a prototypic reaction of cytochrome P450 (P450) 3A4, the major human P450. Biomimetic reactions produced a variety of testosterone oxidation products with 6beta-hydroxylation being only a minor reaction, indicating that P450 3A4 has considerable control over the course of steroid hydroxylation because 6beta-hydroxylation is not dominant in a thermodynamically controlled oxidation of the substrate. Several isotopically labeled testosterone substrates were prepared and used to probe the catalytic mechanism of P450 3A4: (i) 2,2,4,6,6-(2)H(5); (ii) 6,6-(2)H(2); (iii) 6alpha-(2)H; (iv) 6beta-(2)H; and (v) 6beta-(3)H testosterone. Only the 6beta-hydrogen was removed by P450 3A4 and not the 6alpha, indicating that P450 3A4 abstracts hydrogen and rebounds oxygen only at the beta face. Analysis of the rates of hydroxylation of 6beta-(1)H-, 6beta-(2)H-, and 6beta-(3)H-labeled testosterone and application of the Northrop method yielded an apparent intrinsic kinetic deuterium isotope effect ((D)k) of 15. The deuterium isotope effects on k(cat) and k(cat)/K(m) in non-competitive reactions were only 2-3. Some "switching" to other hydroxylations occurred because of 6beta-(2)H substitution. The high (D)k value is consistent with an initial hydrogen atom abstraction reaction. Attenuation of the high (D)k in the non-competitive experiments implies that C-H bond breaking is not a dominant rate-limiting step. Considerable attenuation of a high (D)k value was also seen with a slower P450 3A4 reaction, the O-dealkylation of 7-benzyloxyquinoline. Thus P450 3A4 is an enzyme with regioselective flexibility but also considerable regioselectivity and stereoselectivity in product formation, not necessarily dominated by the ease of C-H bond breaking.

PMID: 15772082 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
So with that out there the proper way to supplement with GFJ to sustain the loop,would be to increase SAMe intake, along with additional B6,B12, and folic acid. otherwise you can just look forward to sum sever indigestion. In either of two forms, dispespia, gerd,and acid reflux, or with sum sever burning in your stomache kinda like an ulcer, or sumthing along thoses lines. t

There are other minor problems that can arise from blocking the CYP enzymes.
 
but it does reason to stand, that SD taken with berg, or GFJ will be more potent in your body do to less oxidation on the first pass.
 
this is stupid.
if u take clen at normal dose (not above 120mcgs/day) and cycle it, week on week off than you will b fine. are there sides? not that many, some shaky hands after u take it or something like that. those r sides im willing to take.

it just sounds stupid to me that drinking grapefruit with my dbols will make them work better than drinking water.
 
GLHF said:
this is stupid.
if u take clen at normal dose (not above 120mcgs/day) and cycle it, week on week off than you will b fine. are there sides? not that many, some shaky hands after u take it or something like that. those r sides im willing to take.

it just sounds stupid to me that drinking grapefruit with my dbols will make them work better than drinking water.
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Dbols + Invalid Link Removed = Invalid Link Removed
 
GLHF said:
this is stupid.
if u take clen at normal dose (not above 120mcgs/day) and cycle it, week on week off than you will b fine. are there sides? not that many, some shaky hands after u take it or something like that. those r sides im willing to take.

it just sounds stupid to me that drinking grapefruit with my dbols will make them work better than drinking water.
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typical response from sumone that knows nothing about their bodys systems or how they are affected by the things you put in it.
 
lyfespan said:
typical response from sumone that knows nothing about their bodys systems or how they are affected by the things you put in it.
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Lol yes this guy clearly didn't read the thread or more likely didn't understand it. Whilsi Rodja Nt8 and me disagree on whether we should do this we all agree the studies are sound and gfj does effect the bioavaliablity just to what extennt is a an unknown as is the excelerrated sides and I'm not advocating its use either. I wouldn't consider this protocol on present stack and using with Clen poses many unknown questions. My point was give it a shot with VAR an expensive compound with very mild sides. I do however regret bringing this topic up as it seems it will be misinterpreted again and again. There is a reeason for label warning on drugs such as xanax and there is no doubt that if D-bol was FDA approved it too would carry suich a warning
 
Rodja said:
This also increases toxicity, side effects, and potential for unforeseen interactions. Extending T 1/2 is good in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory...
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So could you dose the PH lower if you're drinking grapefruit juice?

Sounds like some broscience.
 
edwitt said:
Lol yes this guy clearly didn't read the thread or more likely didn't understand it. Whilsi Rodja Nt8 and me disagree on whether we should do this we all agree the studies are sound and gfj does effect the bioavaliablity just to what extennt is a an unknown as is the excelerrated sides and I'm not advocating its use either. I wouldn't consider this protocol on present stack and using with Clen poses many unknown questions. My point was give it a shot with VAR an expensive compound with very mild sides. I do however regret bringing this topic up as it seems it will be misinterpreted again and again. There is a reeason for label warning on drugs such as xanax and there is no doubt that if D-bol was FDA approved it too would carry suich a warning
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i have done more personal studies on this GFJ/BERG than i care to admit. yes it increases the bioavailbility, yes with increased availibility there is a chance of exacerbated sides. Yes it makes the methyls easier to breakdown, thru the increase of SAMe and other liver metabolites,



BUT AT WHAT COST, as i have stated before you can count on sum dispepsia, gerd, and the inability to digest fats.

So, to ED believe me when i state i get it, and my comment to GLHF wuz directed at him bcuz of this line "it just sounds stupid to me that drinking grapefruit with my dbols will make them work better than drinking water". Becuz it will make them werk better than water.
 
lyfespan said:
i have done more personal studies on this GFJ/BERG than i care to admit. yes it increases the bioavailbility, yes with increased availibility there is a chance of exacerbated sides. Yes it makes the methyls easier to breakdown, thru the increase of SAMe and other liver metabolites,



BUT AT WHAT COST, as i have stated before you can count on sum dispepsia, gerd, and the inability to digest fats.

So, to ED believe me when i state i get it, and my comment to GLHF wuz directed at him bcuz of this line "it just sounds stupid to me that drinking grapefruit with my dbols will make them work better than drinking water". Becuz it will make them werk better than water.
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Point well made sir

I never said "better" so I think we can conclude in full agreement that one should take caution/avoid GFJ whilst taking certain orak medications due to the unknown incresae in bioavaliability and its associated sides.

Apologies if I came across as a ****, upwards and onwards,

Peace
 
Well this what ive got to show for 18 months of my labor and Ive got to say im not unhappy

Ill be trying to add a few more LBM on this final blast but the curtain is coming down on this chapter.... So round one is almost in the bag

Whats next? Well been planning it out for couple of months already and far from decided on the exact path but im gonna go for another 30lbs in the shortest time frame humanly possible.... Kick off will prob be some time in December

Invalid Link Removed
 
edwitt said:
Well this what ive got to show for 18 months of my labor and Ive got to say im not unhappy

Ill be trying to add a few more LBM on this final blast but the curtain is coming down on this chapter.... So round one is almost in the bag

Whats next? Well been planning it out for couple of months already and far from decided on the exact path but im gonna go for another 30lbs in the shortest time frame humanly possible.... Kick off will prob be some time in December

Invalid Link Removed
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My muscle marinade and slin shot log plus 30day blast with 20mg Super DMZ and 50mg Dbol

My last hoorah before taking a break from a long and successful cycle

Please come join @
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/160316-muscle-marinade-slin.html#post2568271

Thank-You
 
I know theres a whole bunch of haters out there but this a new study and its is relevant... Also i recenyly had some Dbol whick was ssuspended in liquid from a very reputable UGL it was suspended in Grain Alcolohol PEG and GF Extract :) guess im not the only one after all

Here is the new study

ANN ARBOR—Researchers, led by a team from the University of Michigan Medical Center, have isolated a pair of substances in grapefruit juice that cause greater absorption of certain drugs in the human body. The new findings are published in the November issue of the journal Drug Metabolism and Disposition.
Earlier studies found that patients who took certain medications with grapefruit juice absorbed more of the medicine. The key to how grapefruit juice enhances drug absorption lies in the interaction between the grapefruit juice and an enzyme found in the small intestine.
Now, Paul B. Watkins, M.D., director of the U-M General Clinical Research Center, and his colleagues have isolated two substances in grapefruit, called furanocoumarins (few-ran-oh-COO-muh-rinns), that are responsible for the so-called grapefruit effect. Watkins says the two components act like suicide bombers, attaching themselves to the enzyme and destroying its ability to interfere with drug absorption.
The enzyme, known as CYP3A4, normally acts as a sort of gatekeeper against certain types of medication, including those prescribed for high blood pressure, heart disease, allergies, AIDS and organ transplantation. These types of drugs, unlike most medications, are not absorbed efficiently in the intestines because they are largely broken down by CYP3A4 in the intestinal wall. Watkins says people typically have varying levels of the enzyme in their intestines—which appears to explain why some individuals absorb greater amounts of a given medication than others.
Watkins says the two furanocoumarins have different properties. The major active substance in grapefruit juice is called 6',7'-dihydroxybergamottin (DHB) and the researchers named the other ingredient they discovered FC726. Where the two differ is that DHB appears to have multiple effects, while FC726 seems to work specifically on the CYP3A4 enzyme.
Watkins says these findings could have important ramifications for the future of drug-making. Researchers now believe that by adding one of the furanocoumarins contained in grapefruit to certain oral medications, the reliability and safety of the drugs can be noticeably improved. "This discovery allows for the development of improved oral medications, not just for existing drugs, but more importantly, drugs that would not have made useful oral medications without this prior understanding," Watkins says. "By placing DHB or FC726 directly into a pill, much more of the drug will be absorbed in a reliable manner."
Another interesting finding in the study was that the concentration of the active ingredients varies dramatically among grapefruits and grapefruit juices, even within the same product line. This is most likely because of growing conditions in different regions and because manufacturers typically buy their grapefruits from many areas. "For this reason," Watkins says, "it would be preferable to add the active ingredient to pills, rather than just taking medication with grapefruit products."
Watkins believes there are probably additional substances in grapefruit that control drug absorption. "The direction of the research now," he says, "is to continue to search for these furanocoumarins to find the magic bullet, the one that just does what we want it to without interfering with anything else. We believe the grapefruit harbors all kinds of compounds that will be useful in formulating different kinds of drugs."
 
If you would like to continue following my progress here is the link to my new log

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/161973-my-gh-igf1.html

My GH IGF1 SLIN TRT PCT/Bridge Cycle

Operation “Stay Swole”

Invalid Link Removed

Last 18 months have been productive :)

PCT/Bridge 3 - 4 months

HG SLIN IGF1 Recovery Cruise
Test Cyp 200mg EW
Proviron 100mg ED pre bed

GOALS
maintain mass on igf/slin/HG PCT/Bridge cycle also help repair left shoulder now 90% normal, bring up lagging body parts (arms)

HGH
7 days a week
as Im on a pct recovery maintenance log, use 4ius gh ED before go to bed, and 6 ius on days I train back, chest and legs. do all shots intra muscular into the damaged shoulder.

IGF1
Igf bilateral 30 mcg 30 mins IM pre WO days bis/shoulders and tris/chest 120mcg total, Legs will pin calves. All pinnng will be done up and down the muscle.

SLIN
Eat half of breakfast Pre WO meal, shoot 5ius then consume 50g dextrose/glucos and creatine glutamine, protein shake. then resume, it peaks in 30 mins so I want carbs in seconds after 10 mins of shot, then shoot 5ius post training with protein, aminos, creatine and obviously 50g fast sugar.dextrose glucose.

Pre Wo Carbs total 90g Pre WO, 110g Post WO both to contain at least 50g fast acting carbs

Will be using Humalog rapid acting insulin

I have done extensive research and i am fully aware of the multiple fifferent protocols and the synergies between these compounds and AAS and this was determined to be the best protocol that suits my goals

Training
new split, body will then grow to adapt to new stress, reason iv grown off
chest,tris
back,
rest
legs
shoulders, biceps.
rest
rest

I will be increasing volume on sets but not going to failure, this ensures a full muscle and not too taxing on cns and ill need extra rest day to combat fact i cant synthesis protein as rapidly on 200mg test cyp, cortisol is more rampant off so combat by adding rest day.

Cardio 3 x 40 min steady state EW will try to do AM fasted when possible
 
I tried the GF thing with M1T 4 years back....Huge mistake...Pissed blood, its amazing Im not dead with how stupid I was back then... Wish I woulda known bout AM back then cause I woulda known how to do things right!
 
jjbogner said:
I tried the GF thing with M1T 4 years back....Huge mistake...Pissed blood, its amazing Im not dead with how stupid I was back then... Wish I woulda known bout AM back then cause I woulda known how to do things right!
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yea GFJ and M1T prob not a good combo :slomo:
 
VERY good thread!

Aside from the usually discussed: GFJ/Naringin/DHB/Bioperine/Emblica Officinalis compounds taken with medications and/or oral steroids... what would the thoughts of the contributors here be regarding their usage with natural non-hormonal OTC supplements (if a user was not on any medications at the time and was looking to extend and amplify the half-life and efficacy of their supplement protocol)?

Thank you :)
 
Dr.Lang said:
It may not always be a good thing.
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Yes,

this was clearly a controversial thread and i regret the title as it implies drink GFJ with your AAS and save a few bucks.... Clearly there are a lot of unknowns and the negatives are amplified as well as any positives...

Primarily the largest concern is not knowing how you are effecting the positive and negative sides of your dosing schedule... I personally would use with a drug such as Anavar or even Dbol but that being said i am irresponsible ;)
 
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