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SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

Keep your blood levels stable and keep dosing Id find a way to do body weight exercises , if there's a will there's a way .
 
Shin Sprints said:
Okay, I don't want to sound like a hypochondriac but rash is still there but doesn't seem to be getting any worse.

However, my nipples seem to be very "erect" for want of a better word. They have always tended towards that but right now they look even more so...not itchy but are hard and if pressed are somewhat sensitive, not sore definitely feel different.

I can't see it being Viron causing this but not sure what else. Currently 3 week into 2xViron, 2xLetrone and 2nd week of 1xCardar1ne (upped to 2x this morning) and 1xGher1ne.

Any insight?

Thanks.
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If it concerns you, see a physician. It's very hard to diagnose an issue over a forum, and now with more symptoms that may or may not be related, its too much too read into. I can't say that I've personally heard the erect nipple symptom related to any of those supplements, but with Viron and Letrone not being products of ours, I'm not as up to date or well-versed regarding them. But again, if you are concerned, seeking a physician is likely your best course of action.
 
Hastur said:
If it concerns you, see a physician. It's very hard to diagnose an issue over a forum, and now with more symptoms that may or may not be related, its too much too read into. I can't say that I've personally heard the erect nipple symptom related to any of those supplements, but with Viron and Letrone not being products of ours, I'm not as up to date or well-versed regarding them. But again, if you are concerned, seeking a physician is likely your best course of action.
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Not concerned as yet but curious as to the occurrence.

I will monitor some more and then decide.

I had blood tests three weeks ago and all was good...I just can't imagine that I would be having estro issues from the stack.
 
Shin Sprints said:
Not concerned as yet but curious as to the occurrence.

I will monitor some more and then decide.

I had blood tests three weeks ago and all was good...I just can't imagine that I would be having estro issues from the stack.
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Of course, I understand. I wish I could be of more help to you, but I will say that I don't believe that the rash and erect nipples are linked. As for potential estrogen issues, if you are experiencing them, they are not occurring from Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne, as neither have the potential to affect estrogen. Have you asked anyone regarding Letrone and Viron? One of the company reps?
 
Hastur said:
Of course, I understand. I wish I could be of more help to you, but I will say that I don't believe that the rash and erect nipples are linked. As for potential estrogen issues, if you are experiencing them, they are not occurring from Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne, as neither have the potential to affect estrogen. Have you asked anyone regarding Letrone and Viron? One of the company reps?
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I didn't think it Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne.

On Cardar1ne I believe I am seeing increase in endurance. One week in, upped to 2xpre.

I don't want to double post so will see of anyone chimes in here, if not, I will post to BLR.
 
Shin Sprints said:
I didn't think it Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne.

On Cardar1ne I believe I am seeing increase in endurance. One week in, upped to 2xpre.

I don't want to double post so will see of anyone chimes in here, if not, I will post to BLR.
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Oh, I didn't mean to imply you were saying they were to blame, I simply felt the need to point out that I don't believe either to be responsible and since there are products you are using we don't produce perhaps a rep for that company would be able to help! Text can be messy, I meant to convey no hostility or put words in your mouth, friend! I truly hope you are able to resolve your issue!
 
Hastur said:
Oh, I didn't mean to imply you were saying they were to blame, I simply felt the need to point out that I don't believe either to be responsible and since there are products you are using we don't produce perhaps a rep for that company would be able to help! Text can be messy, I meant to convey no hostility or put words in your mouth, friend! I truly hope you are able to resolve your issue!
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No, no offence taken whatsoever :)

I knew where you were coming from.

Thanks.
 
Shin Sprints said:
No, no offence taken whatsoever :)

I knew where you were coming from.

Thanks.
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Excellent. Well perhaps someone can give you answer soon regarding your issues, at least the rash isn't getting progressively worse. Though I wouldn't enjoy nipple sensitivity...
 
Hastur said:
Of course, I understand. I wish I could be of more help to you, but I will say that I don't believe that the rash and erect nipples are linked. As for potential estrogen issues, if you are experiencing them, they are not occurring from Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne, as neither have the potential to affect estrogen. Have you asked anyone regarding Letrone and Viron? One of the company reps?
Click to expand...


Shin Sprints said:
I didn't think it Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne.

On Cardar1ne I believe I am seeing increase in endurance. One week in, upped to 2xpre.

I don't want to double post so will see of anyone chimes in here, if not, I will post to BLR.
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Viron can raise estrogen because of the tongkat ali. Now i don't see a correlation between higher estrogen and
erect nipples (can cause puffy nipples).

But your also taking Letrone, which will seriously lower estrogen, even for someone taking high dose of Test.

I can't say for sure, what is causing your erect nipples. Maybe they're cold :)

Whats your Viron & Letrone dosing like..?
 
SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

Shin Sprints said:
I didn't think it Cardar1ne or Ghar1ne.

On Cardar1ne I believe I am seeing increase in endurance. One week in, upped to 2xpre.

I don't want to double post so will see of anyone chimes in here, if not, I will post to BLR.
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Any chance of getting bloodwork to see if something hormonal is to blame?

Presumably (if Letrone is as strong as touted), it wouldn't be an Estro issue...but I haven't seen much bloodwork on Letrone to confirm.

I have seen a couple reports of nip issues using Viron with low or no Letrone. That said, I don't know that I'm convinced otc test boosters would cause nip issues. Though I suppose if one was gyno prone or overly sensitive anything is possible.

We also don't know the 1/2 life of Letrone nor if it is suicidal. Heck, it may only be effective for 2 hours at a time, causing some rebound effects or something between doses.

Not knocking the product (I'm on it now), just pointing out some unknown factors with it.

Wishing u the best man.
 
kboxer7 said:
Any chance of getting bloodwork to see if something hormonal is to blame?

Presumably (if Letrone is as strong as touted), it wouldn't be an Estro issue...but I haven't seen much bloodwork on Letrone to confirm.

I have seen a couple reports of nip issues using Viron with low or no Letrone. That said, I don't know that I'm convinced otc test boosters would cause nip issues. Though I suppose if one was gyno prone or overly sensitive anything is possible.

We also don't know the 1/2 life of Letrone nor if it is suicidal. Heck, it may only be effective for 2 hours at a time, causing some rebound effects or something between doses.

Not knocking the product (I'm on it now), just pointing out some unknown factors with it.

Wishing u the best man.
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I have taken Viron before with Erase Pro and not seen issues.

Anyway, I will monitor and see.

Blood work again so close to the last one will probably be tricky...I get them done with health card, not sure where I would go to get paid for blood work.
 
vujade said:
Viron can raise estrogen because of the tongkat ali. Now i don't see a correlation between higher estrogen and
erect nipples (can cause puffy nipples).

But your also taking Letrone, which will seriously lower estrogen, even for someone taking high dose of Test.

I can't say for sure, what is causing your erect nipples. Maybe they're cold :)

Whats your Viron & Letrone dosing like..?
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2x each.

Not looking to derail this thread so I will monitor closely the next few days.

Definitely not cold nipples, it us 30C here. Maybe rash is a heat rash...again, will monitor.
 
No to be mean here Shin splints but I think you're just a bit paranoid. You're making these "problems" problems by stressing out over them. Have you ever heard of Somatisation disorders? Check out the link below,

Invalid Link Removed
 
T-Bone said:
No to be mean here Shin splints but I think you're just a bit paranoid. You're making these "problems" problems by stressing out over them. Have you ever heard of Somatisation disorders? Check out the link below
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I don't think there is any need to imply that, clearly he experienced the rash before being concerned about it. I don't think it's fair to the guy to call him paranoid just because he values his health and is seeking help and advice.
 
Hastur said:
I don't think there is any need to imply that, clearly he experienced the rash before being concerned about it. I don't think it's fair to the guy to call him paranoid just because he values his health and is seeking help and advice.
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Well I see a lot of running these types of products for the first time and and also for the 17th time and they get really paranoid about every little thing. It's common. It's not meant as a "burn" or to be mean. It's meant to help.
 
T-Bone said:
Well I see a lot of running these types of products for the first time and and also for the 17th time and they get really paranoid about every little thing. It's common. It's not meant as a "burn" or to be mean. It's meant to help.
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No worries and no burn taken.

Definitely not a hypochondriac, just seeking any other user experiences that might have same effects.

Not looking for definitive but feedback from a collective can be insightful.
 
4 days on 10mg OL gharine and it actually keeps me awake for longer time, I went to bed at 4 44 am yesterday, Woke up today at 10 30 am had tons of energy ( I'm 30 yo when I sleep late like that I can't function at all).
200 mcg hup a 400 mg green tea daily.
just an update I think I'll def stick a month on 10 mg can't do that 4 am business for long lol.
 
warpyfunch said:
Has anyone heard any feedback yet on how suppressive radar1ne might be compared to osta or lgd?
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Honestly we had the supressive debate and conclusion was supressed is supressed once your shut down that's it especially if you do a long enough run if a so called mild compound will shut you down the same
 
mixedup said:
Honestly we had the supressive debate and conclusion was supressed is supressed once your shut down that's it especially if you do a long enough run if a so called mild compound will shut you down the same
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Fair enough, I guess a better question is what the recovery is like. Suppressed maybe be suppressed no matter what, but I think it's pretty clear that ostarine, for example, has a quicker easier recovery than lgd. No?
 
mixedup said:
Honestly we had the supressive debate and conclusion was supressed is supressed once your shut down that's it especially if you do a long enough run if a so called mild compound will shut you down the same
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I agree, shutdown is shutdown. The length of time you stay shutdown seems to be what dictates recovery. Obviously there are other variables at work as well, but this one seems to be noteworthy.

warpyfunch said:
Fair enough, I guess a better question is what the recovery is like. Suppressed maybe be suppressed no matter what, but I think it's pretty clear that ostarine, for example, has a quicker easier recovery than lgd. No?
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I never subscribed to the pseudo-scientific theory of less suppressive, quicker recovery. When you introduce something that stops your endogenous Testosterone production, it stops. Recovery seems to be individual, like with all things. Some may recover easily from LGD, while others don't recovery easily from Ostarine. Diet, training, genetics, supplements, PCT ancillaries, time spent shutdown, half life of compounds (more of an AAS concern regarding restarting HPTA).
 
warpyfunch said:
Fair enough, I guess a better question is what the recovery is like. Suppressed maybe be suppressed no matter what, but I think it's pretty clear that ostarine, for example, has a quicker easier recovery than lgd. No?
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Recovery should be quick like every other sarm due to the limited amount of suppression on LH and fsh. Shut down is shut down but testosterone levels aren't the only thing we need to take into account here
 
yates84 said:
Recovery should be quick like every other sarm due to the limited amount of suppression on LH and fsh. Shut down is shut down but testosterone levels aren't the only thing we need to take into account here
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This is true. Regardless, I always run a SERM in PCT, and I always have an AI on hand. No matter what you've been told, or heard, regarding the suppressive qualities of a compound, unless you have blood tests for yourself pre and post cycle, you don't know. Be cautious, you may react better or worse to a compound than what you've read in the anecdotal reports of others.
 
Hastur said:
This is true. Regardless, I always run a SERM in PCT, and I always have an AI on hand. No matter what you've been told, or heard, regarding the suppressive qualities of a compound, unless you have blood tests for yourself pre and post cycle, you don't know. Be cautious, you may react better or worse to a compound than what you've read in the anecdotal reports of others.
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Agreed. I always reccomend clomid for even the most mild cycle, you never know how your body will react
 
Guys, speaking of PCT...Ill finish my 12 week run of Ostar1ne next week, and Im currently cutting, lets say 4-500 cals under maintenance , Im gonna take clomid, ABE, XGELS, creatine, organ shield and DAA for PCT, so my big Q is...should I jump directly to maintenance cals, or above?

With prohormones I have read we should increase cals vs cycle cals in order to keep most of gains and since SARM gains are more easy to keep, does trying to drop 1-1.5 more pounds after Osta cycle, a really bad idea?

thanks!
 
1kerry said:
Guys, speaking of PCT...Ill finish my 12 week run of Ostar1ne next week, and Im currently cutting, lets say 4-500 cals under maintenance , Im gonna take clomid, ABE, XGELS, creatine, organ shield and DAA for PCT, so my big Q is...should I jump directly to maintenance cals, or above?

With prohormones I have read we should increase cals vs cycle cals in order to keep most of gains and since SARM gains are more easy to keep, does trying to drop 1-1.5 more pounds after Osta cycle, a really bad idea?

thanks!
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I have not ran Osta yet so I'll let some of the other gents chime in on that aspect.

But I will say that I REALLY like to take an AI while on clomid (even if OTC) starting two weeks in and ending a couple weeks post clomid. I've seen a TON of bloodwork and while extremely effective at raising T, it also raises E a LOT.
 
kboxer7 said:
I have not ran Osta yet so I'll let some of the other gents chime in on that aspect.

But I will say that I REALLY like to take an AI while on clomid (even if OTC) starting two weeks in and ending a couple weeks post clomid. I've seen a TON of bloodwork and while extremely effective at raising T, it also raises E a LOT.
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thanks for your answer, an OTC AI will do the trick, like Eliminate?
 
1kerry said:
thanks for your answer, an OTC AI will do the trick, like Eliminate?
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Yeah an OTC AI should be just fine. We want a good test-to-E ratio during PCT not to crush it.

El1minate would work great and has a good amount of servings per bottle.

One analysis of Androst 3,5-dein-7,17dione (Arimistane) showed that peak plasma levels following oral administration were reached in 2.2 hours, with a half life of 2.17 hours. Further investigation yielded that twice daily administration led to somewhat stable blood plasma levels.

So I always like splitting my Arimistane (which is what El1minate has in it) dose up into 2 per day.
 
kboxer7 said:
Yeah an OTC AI should be just fine. We want a good test-to-E ratio during PCT not to crush it.

El1minate would work great and has a good amount of servings per bottle.

One analysis of Androst 3,5-dein-7,17dione (Arimistane) showed that peak plasma levels following oral administration were reached in 2.2 hours, with a half life of 2.17 hours. Further investigation yielded that twice daily administration led to somewhat stable blood plasma levels.

So I always like splitting my Arimistane (which is what El1minate has in it) dose up into 2 per day.
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thanks bro! So 2 caps dode apart for 4 weeks is enough?
 
1kerry said:
thanks bro! So 2 caps dode apart for 4 weeks is enough?
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I don't remember what your Clomid set up is like, but I'd start it about 2 weeks into your clomid dosing and continue for about two weeks past cessation of clomid.

Start with 2 caps dosed apart (am + pm or something like that). If you happen to be sensitive to estro it is possible you'll need to go to 3 caps but prob not past that. Just be aware of symptoms of high E and dose accordingly.

The bottle is a WHOPPING 120 caps at about $25 so you can't beat the amount of servings for the price. You'll likely have leftover for another run.
 
kboxer7 said:
I have not ran Osta yet so I'll let some of the other gents chime in on that aspect.

But I will say that I REALLY like to take an AI while on clomid (even if OTC) starting two weeks in and ending a couple weeks post clomid. I've seen a TON of bloodwork and while extremely effective at raising T, it also raises E a LOT.
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I take Toremifene for my SERM of choice, and I too experience high E while on it. It raises T high enough that the aromatizing is pretty significant. I had used Exemestane in the past with it, but it turned out to be completely bunk. When my PCT ended, I puffed up quite a bit, so there was definite Estrogen Rebound going on. If my Exemestane had been legit, I would have been fine, I believe.

1kerry said:
thanks for your answer, an OTC AI will do the trick, like Eliminate?
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This is my plan for my upcoming PCT.

kboxer7 said:
Yeah an OTC AI should be just fine. We want a good test-to-E ratio during PCT not to crush it.

El1minate would work great and has a good amount of servings per bottle.

One analysis of Androst 3,5-dein-7,17dione (Arimistane) showed that peak plasma levels following oral administration were reached in 2.2 hours, with a half life of 2.17 hours. Further investigation yielded that twice daily administration led to somewhat stable blood plasma levels.

So I always like splitting my Arimistane (which is what El1minate has in it) dose up into 2 per day.
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Exactly, all solid points! I plan to spread my dosages throughout the day due to the half-life.

kboxer7 said:
I don't remember what your Clomid set up is like, but I'd start it about 2 weeks into your clomid dosing and continue for about two weeks past cessation of clomid.

Start with 2 caps dosed apart (am + pm or something like that). If you happen to be sensitive to estro it is possible you'll need to go to 3 caps but prob not past that. Just be aware of symptoms of high E and dose accordingly.

The bottle is a WHOPPING 120 caps at about $25 so you can't beat the amount of servings for the price. You'll likely have leftover for another run.
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This is the best way to run an AI with a SERM to avoid any estrogen rebound. I'm following the same protocol.

-Liquid Torem (Toremifene, 60mL, 60mgs/mL, 3600mg total)
-Olympus Labs Sup3r PCT (300 caps, 30 servings)
-Olympus Labs Elim1nate (120 caps, 25mg Androst 3,5-dien-7,17-dione per cap)

-Liquid Toremifene ------------- 120/90/60/30/0/0
-Olympus Labs Sup3r PCT -- 10/10/10/10/0/0
-Olympus Labs Elim1nate ---- 0/0/25/25/75/75

And Sup3r PCT has 75mg Arimistane per serving as well.

So my Arimistane for all 6-weeks in milligrams looks like: 75/75/100/100/75/75
 
And I gotta give a shout out to yates84 for hooking me up with a solid AI plan for my PCT, I was on the fence about using an OTC AI, but after talking to him, I'm confident it will do the job. Thanks, bro!
 
Hastur said:
And I gotta give a shout out to yates84 for hooking me up with a solid AI plan for my PCT, I was on the fence about using an OTC AI, but after talking to him, I'm confident it will do the job. Thanks, bro!
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If it doesn't you have exemestane on hand so no worries.
 
1kerry said:
thank you guys Hastur kboxer7 , I was also considering letrone, but its way more expensive and I might crash estro
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Anytime! We're always glad to help! I think Elim1nate will get the job done, and at a more reasonable cost.

yates84 said:
If it doesn't you have exemestane on hand so no worries.
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Exactly! Just in case! And at least unlike Exemestane, Arimistane won't crush my estrogen quite as much, and we all know we need a healthy ratio for proper HPTA function.
 
1kerry said:
thank you guys Hastur kboxer7 , I was also considering letrone, but its way more expensive and I might crash estro
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No problem man. We are here to help.

I'm on Letrone now. Not sure I buy into how powerful it is supposed to be from an AI standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I do like it, but there is a lot of info we don't yet know about it like half life and if it is suicidal or not.

I can take 3 caps, not even on PCT or anything that would aromatize, and I don't feel my estro is crushed. I know that's not bloodwork, but I am pretty in tune to how I feel when I crush estro (been there before).

I still like the product and feel as if it has helped, so I don't want to sound like I"m bashing it. Our man Chedda is going to be running bloodwork on it while on clomid so stay tuned to his logs if you are interested in how that fairs for him.

At least with Arimistane we know the half life, and potency has been pretty well established over time from users. I feel like as it stands, El1minate is more predictable (not to mention affordable) and is what I'll be using as well.
 
kboxer7 said:
No problem man. We are here to help.

I'm on Letrone now. Not sure I buy into how powerful it is supposed to be from an AI standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I do like it, but there is a lot of info we don't yet know about it like half life and if it is suicidal or not.

I can take 3 caps, not even on PCT or anything that would aromatize, and I don't feel my estro is crushed. I know that's not bloodwork, but I am pretty in tune to how I feel when I crush estro (been there before).

I still like the product and feel as if it has helped, so I don't want to sound like I"m bashing it. Our man Chedda is going to be running bloodwork on it while on clomid so stay tuned to his logs if you are interested in how that fairs for him.

At least with Arimistane we know the half life, and potency has been pretty well established over time from users. I feel like as it stands, El1minate is more predictable (not to mention affordable) and is what I'll be using as well.
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Lol I just posted in the letrone thread my dilemma... I can tell my e2 is up there at the moment after two weeks clomid. I AM on 1 cap el1minate and I don't have enough at this point to increase to two or three. The bottle will be gone in one week and that's when I planned on starting letrone but these e2 sides (itchy hot skin and water retention in belly and chest) are killing me. I don't want to skew my initial labs though, so for the sake of science I am going to endure this and go find a bra. ;)
 
ohh BTW, you guys helped me alot with the PCT theme, but what about the calorie intake? Should I go maintenance, slighlty under or above? lol thanks!
 
1kerry said:
ohh BTW, you guys helped me alot with the PCT theme, but what about the calorie intake? Should I go maintenance, slighlty under or above? lol thanks!
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I like maintenance bur make sure it's your maintenance for new weight not pre cycle
 
chedapalooza said:
Lol I just posted in the letrone thread my dilemma... I can tell my e2 is up there at the moment after two weeks clomid. I AM on 1 cap el1minate and I don't have enough at this point to increase to two or three. The bottle will be gone in one week and that's when I planned on starting letrone but these e2 sides (itchy hot skin and water retention in belly and chest) are killing me. I don't want to skew my initial labs though, so for the sake of science I am going to endure this and go find a bra. ;)
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why not just switch to the letrone immediately? how would that skew results?
 
warpyfunch said:
why not just switch to the letrone immediately? how would that skew results?
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Because I won't know my starting estrogen levels after being on clomid. Before starting clomid I was at 33... I've gotta be at least 1:1 ratio at this point given the sides and knowing my total Test is 569.. Probably high 40s-low 50s at the moment for e2

If I take letrone now, it SHOULD start lowering e2 (if it works) before I know where it is
 
chedapalooza said:
Because I won't know my starting estrogen levels after being on clomid. Before starting clomid I was at 33... I've gotta be at least 1:1 ratio at this point given the sides and knowing my total Test is 569.. Probably high 40s-low 50s at the moment for e2

If I take letrone now, it SHOULD start lowering e2 (if it works) before I know where it is
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Gotcha. Misunderstood. Thought you already had your pre-letrone numbers.

So how many weeks will you be running clomid+letrone concurrently before testing again?
 
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