SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

[franks009]

I just started an 8 week cycle of lgd and mk677. Im using ar1macare pro. Do i follow the label as indicated? 4 twice a day? Seems like alot.

 

[yates84]

I just started an 8 week cycle of lgd and mk677. Im using ar1macare pro. Do i follow the label as indicated? 4 twice a day? Seems like alot.

Its a lot of caps but that is the appropriate dosing.

 

[Clean gene]

Good Write up. I used RAD 140. It was for real. I felt full and solid all day long. The pumps were brutal (but no back or shin pumps). The only thing I didn't like it bounced my blood sugar around. Worth another go for me.

 

[franks009]

Its a lot of caps but that is the appropriate dosing.

Alright, thanks

 

[UncleSarm]

Yeah I will be doing a four week PCT. I am just starting at 30mg of nolva for the first couple weeks with an intention of tapering down. Thanks for all of your advice. I've ordered Sup3r PCT as well. Just take daily at the dose recommendation on the label I assume?

With 25mg for 12 weeks, 4 weeks of PCT seems a little short. 25mg is quite suppressive and you're running it for a fairly long time, not including the Dermacrine.

 

[yates84]

With 25mg for 12 weeks, 4 weeks of PCT seems a little short. 25mg is quite suppressive and you're running it for a fairly long time, not including the Dermacrine.

4 weeks pct is plenty, 12 week test cycles usually include a 4 week pct. I would run nolva at 20/20/10/10 and forget about 30mg

 

[Hercules1982]

Let's talk Osta....

Ostarine - is, probably, the most well known SARM's. It is best used to preserve muscle mass, while in a caloric deficit. Ostarine can, and will, suppress your natural testosterone production in longer higher dosed cycles. So, a SERM PCT is needed. Ostarine can also cause gyno in some users. So, it is recommended that you have an AI, like Exemestane, on hand. The average cycle length is 6 to 10 weeks at a dosage range of 10mg to 25mg.

Ostarine example cycle:
Beginner cut
Ostarine - 15/15/15/15/15/15
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
*AI of choice on hand

Advanced Cut:
Ostarine - 15/15/15/15/15/20/20/20/20/20
OL Eliminate - 2/2/2/2/2/3/3/3/3/3
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
Clomid 50/25/25

Recomp cycle:
Ostarine - 20/20/20/20/25/25/25/25
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
Clomid 50/25/25


Now, here are some SARM cycle Stacks that I've come up with....

Cut to Bulk:
Ostarine -15/15/15/15/15/15/0/0/0/0
LGD - 0/0/0/0/4/4/8/8/12/12
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
Clomid 50/25/25

RAD/Osta Recomp:
RAD - 4/4/8/8/12/12/0/0
Ostarine - 20/20/20/20/25/25/25/25
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
Clomid 50/25/25

RAD/LGD Bulk:
RAD - 4/4/8/8/12/12/0/0
LGD - 4/4/4/8/8/8/12/12
PCT:
OL Super PCT as indicated on label
Clomid 50/50/25/25

**MK 677 and/or GW would stack great with these cycles, as well, and would help with endurance, sleep, and overall muscle gain. (Refer to MK 677 and GW dosing at top of thread).**

Coming tomorrow...other PCT options!

Thanks for the great thread! Last year I had great success with a LGD/Osta/11-andro cut. This year I was thinking of LGD/Osta/MK/GW, I understand from your post that is a nice set-up for a cut?

 

[rotherhammad]

Hey guys.
Question for anyone on Trt. I have just been diagnosed with low T and refered to a specialist. My appointment will be 4-6 weeks.
My next cycle is due to start in 10days. Shud I hold off until after I've seen the specialist or continue with cycle? I'm giddy to be starting next cycle as suffered injury at the start of this year.
If I decide to hold off it could be 6-8 months before I jump back on! Thanks

 

[rotherhammad]

Last cycle was just Osta/dermicrine. Finished dec 2015. Shud be fully recovered by now. Always had low test sides.
Sorry if wrong forum. Loved this sarm section.
My upcoming run was rad 1-4 legend, and yK-11

 

[NoAddedHmones]

4 weeks pct is plenty, 12 week test cycles usually include a 4 week pct. I would run nolva at 20/20/10/10 and forget about 30mg

This. Real SERMs get your test up quite quickly.

 

[yates84]

Thanks for the great thread! Last year I had great success with a LGD/Osta/11-andro cut. This year I was thinking of LGD/Osta/MK/GW, I understand from your post that is a nice set-up for a cut?

I would go for rad in place of the lgd for a cut. Rad will be a great kicker for the osta and get things moving in the right direction pretty quickly. Osta and lgd just don't stack good imo.

 

[Joedoubledose]

SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

Rad has been good for recomp when I've ran it . It kinda puffs you up then you start to lean out and when you get off of it a couple days after you lose a tad bit of water weight . It made me look pretty good on my last two runs , only thing is it make me feel like dog **** and quick

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Rad has been good for recomp when I've ran it . It kinda puffs you up then you start to lean out and when you get off of it a couple days after you lose a tad bit of water weight . It made me look pretty good on my last two runs , only thing is it make me feel like dog **** and quick

Has anybody pinpointed a reason for it making ya feel like sh1t?

 

[yates84]

Hey guys.
Question for anyone on Trt. I have just been diagnosed with low T and refered to a specialist. My appointment will be 4-6 weeks.
My next cycle is due to start in 10days. Shud I hold off until after I've seen the specialist or continue with cycle? I'm giddy to be starting next cycle as suffered injury at the start of this year.
If I decide to hold off it could be 6-8 months before I jump back on! Thanks

I would hold off and get your test situation figured out first. You don't want to cause any deviation in your numbers when your doctor does your bloodwork to compare to previous bloodwork, this could only cause issues for you.

 

[rotherhammad]

Thanks Yates, I've decided the same. Gunna stick with Epic unleashed as that shouldn't alter my figures I believe. Would you recommend anything else? Use conquer pre workout but not everyday.

 

[yates84]

Thanks Yates, I've decided the same. Gunna stick with Epic unleashed as that shouldn't alter my figures I believe. Would you recommend anything else? Use conquer pre workout but not everyday.

Epic unleashed and conquer sounds like a great stack while you get things in order! I would do something similar for sure.

 

[rotherhammad]

Would Gharine 10mg have any effect on my results. Not tried it yet was saving the 2 bottles. Cheers again

 

[yates84]

Would Gharine 10mg have any effect on my results. Not tried it yet was saving the 2 bottles. Cheers again

I wouldn't use anything right now that can effect any hormone levels until you get your low T taken care of.

 

[rotherhammad]

20% off OL at Nutriverse!!!! You have to search for the good stuff though. Sup3r 1,3 and 11!

 

[nitemare16]

Yates
I am 27 male lifting a few years, although most of my gains are from this past year and gaining very slowly as I have a hard time gaining and more recently starting to eat more. I'm 140lb (started gaining at 115lbs but have trained previous to that), have always had low bf, starting to get some belly fat from bulking, small strength gains, training intensely, starting to be a lot more dedicated. I was recommended by a friend, Ostalean and have read a thread on here about someone using it which linked me to this thread. So my question was, can I safely start using Ostalean at its recommended dosage even though I am not specifically trying to lose weight, or do you recommend another sarm? I do not have very high expectations, just want a few pounds of muscle mass and get my feet wet with something with low sides. The person in the other thread was directed to take Ostalean, with the free bottle of testoshred (am thinking about buying this combo) and then to take Rebirth as part of the pct with the testoshred. Is this a stack you recommend or are there better options? Also, is there a point to taking testoshred if I'm taking Rebirth? Or vise Vera? I don't know the difference between the test booster and the serm.
Don't get me wrong I could be leaner, all of my fat gain is ending up in my stomach so I always have to tighten my abs to see them like I used to. Maybe caused by GOMAD, mostly just half gomad now

Thanks!

 

[yates84]

Yates
I am 27 male lifting a few years, although most of my gains are from this past year and gaining very slowly as I have a hard time gaining and more recently starting to eat more. I'm 140lb (started gaining at 115lbs but have trained previous to that), have always had low bf, starting to get some belly fat from bulking, small strength gains, training intensely, starting to be a lot more dedicated. I was recommended by a friend, Ostalean and have read a thread on here about someone using it which linked me to this thread. So my question was, can I safely start using Ostalean at its recommended dosage even though I am not specifically trying to lose weight, or do you recommend another sarm? I do not have very high expectations, just want a few pounds of muscle mass and get my feet wet with something with low sides. The person in the other thread was directed to take Ostalean, with the free bottle of testoshred (am thinking about buying this combo) and then to take Rebirth as part of the pct with the testoshred. Is this a stack you recommend or are there better options? Also, is there a point to taking testoshred if I'm taking Rebirth? Or vise Vera? I don't know the difference between the test booster and the serm.
Don't get me wrong I could be leaner, all of my fat gain is ending up in my stomach so I always have to tighten my abs to see them like I used to. Maybe caused by GOMAD, mostly just half gomad now

Thanks!

I started lifting when I was about 105 pounds so I feel your pain! Osta definitely isn't your best option. For a first cycle bulk I would go for lgd. Obtain is great at maintaining muscle mass while in a deficit but not that great at putting on muscle.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

People "say" a lot of things - doesn't mean it would stand up to scientific scrutiny. An LGD cycle isn't any more complicated than an Ostarine one. Since we have seen Osta blood work showing levels in the 200s it isn't "mild" in the shutdown dept either. Do your cycle, have Aromasin for emergencies only, PCT with Clomid and Nolva. Done.

 

[Joedoubledose]

Has anybody pinpointed a reason for it making ya feel like sh1t?

Think it had to do with vitamins

 

[Jm88888]

The following is anecdotal and not scientific, but I still wanted to provide...
One week ago I felt symptoms of low t hitting at 3.5 week point in lgd cycle. Same time this struck the last time I took, and it is what scared me off the compound early last time. This time i considered dermacrine or andro 4 But I instead wanted to try something else I had on hand. I went with 1 capsule of revolution PCT (basically 325 mg DAA and 25 mg of arimistane) to my surprise within about a day or 2 symptoms were gone. I'm not claiming anything here other than for me this strategy alleviated symptoms. Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[EMPIREMIND]

So is it okay if I just use clomid after LGD cycle, nothing else?
I have both of these so far, will probably get aromasin when I start the cycle

And this will be primeval's LGD so I'm hoping it's not a PH

As theoldguy said do your cycle. Have exemestane on hand and use Clomid and nolva for pct. Done

 

[nitemare16]

As theoldguy said do your cycle. Have exemestane on hand and use Clomid and nolva for pct. Done

I was confused because I don't usually hear anyone use both? Even this thread says one or the other. I also ask because I now have clomid not nolva. I'm on here for clear insight not to be annoying.

I've also switched to liquid lgd instead of caps :/

 

[CJNator]

I was confused because I don't usually hear anyone use both? Even this thread says one or the other. I also ask because I now have clomid not nolva. I'm on here for clear insight not to be annoying.

Not sure if there is anything out there saying that stacking SERMs helps at all, imo nolva for 6 weeks would be optimal solo. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Bunshichi]

Its not really important if you use one or the other. Stacking them theoretically has some upsides, but I would only recommend that for heavy cycles. For your average cycle 50/50/25/25 chlomi or 20/20/10/10 nolva are totally fine.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Not sure if there is anything out there saying that stacking SERMs helps at all, imo nolva for 6 weeks would be optimal solo. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

This says there is, so I do it (and because it was pointed out by some knowledgeable members here as well) - and why not? It's cheap (as cheap or cheaper than most of those "OTC SERM/PCT" concoctions) and comparably safe based on small/short dosages/duration that we use SERMs for:

What's the point of using two different SERMs during PCT?

There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels. Nolvadex is dominant in LH promotion and Clomid is dominant in promoting FSH.

Clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of Clomid because it put Clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH Nolva/Clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. Clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that Clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just Clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? Clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

*You can substitute clomid with toremifine as well.

Plus, I'm old and scared - stack the deck baby!

 

[jmaplewood]

This says there is, so I do it (and because it was pointed out by some knowledgeable members here as well) - and why not? It's cheap (as cheap or cheaper than most of those "OTC SERM/PCT" concoctions) and comparably safe based on small/short dosages/duration that we use SERMs for:



Plus, I'm old and scared - stack the deck baby!

Nice post. So I assume a proper plan would be clomid 50/50/25/25 alongside nolva 20/20/10/10?

 

[CJNator]

This says there is, so I do it (and because it was pointed out by some knowledgeable members here as well) - and why not? It's cheap (as cheap or cheaper than most of those "OTC SERM/PCT" concoctions) and comparably safe based on small/short dosages/duration that we use SERMs for:



Plus, I'm old and scared - stack the deck baby!

Wow I wasn't aware of this, thanks!

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Nice post. So I assume a proper plan would be clomid 50/50/25/25 alongside nolva 20/20/10/10?

Technically, you could lessen the dosages of each (I was told), but that gets into some PITA syringe examination when dosing - I just do like you posted - std dosages. I do go longer though usually - 5-6 weeks doing EOD for the last one to two weeks. Others like doing the lower dosages for longer like 25 and 10 for 6-8 weeks. Due diligence and self experimentation!

 

[EMPIREMIND]

The one thing that bothers me about sarms and this site sometimes is that alot of fellas use these drugs but they are bottled like supplements. Then they do these pcts which are either otc and not enough at all, or use serms(which are drugs) to pct and completely overkill it. I think the best response to this whole topic is get bloodwork. If your not prepared to do bloodwork i dont think you be using this stuff.

 

[JayWalk39]

If your not prepared to do bloodwork i dont think you be using this stuff.

Unfortunately not all states allow you to get blood work without a Doctor approving it. I got blood done pre-cycle because I just so happen to have my yearly physical, but wont be able to get them again for another year.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Unfortunately not all states allow you to get blood work without a Doctor approving it. I got blood done pre-sale because I just so happen to have my yearly physical, but wont be able to get them again for another year.

Im sorry but this is not true at all.

 

[JayWalk39]

Im sorry but this is not true at all.

Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey.

Laws in these states require that any lab work be ordered by your personal physician; a copy of this order must be presented at the laboratory.

Also, I tried to get blood work done in CT and was told by the clinic that since my license was from one of the state's listed above that I would need a doctor's order.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey.

Laws in these states require that any lab work be ordered by your personal physician; a copy of this order must be presented at the laboratory.

Intesting. I live in new york and i am very much able to buy blood testing through the life extension website. Its independent bloodwork. Or drive to another state to do it. Or take whatever is marketed to you and suffer from the consequences of not knowing whats going on in your body. Do a pct when you dont need to, or do an improper pct... Its just foolish...

None the less i dont really care how you guys treat yourselves, i wont lose any sleep, but its wise to get your bloods done to know what you need to address, not just guess and throw unnessesary drugs into your body.

 

[JayWalk39]

Intesting. I live in new york and i am very much able to buy blood testing through the life extension website. Its independent bloodwork. Or drive to another state to do it.

So you draw your own blood? The only way for life extension to work is that they send a vile and blood draw kit and you draw your own blood and mail it in. Not sure I am qualified to draw my own blood so I will pass on that option.

Driving to another state doesn't work since they check your license for residency.

Anyway, I am sure there are options, but it is definitely not an easy process.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

...or use serms(which are drugs) to pct and completely overkill it.

I would say that 50mg C and 20mg N or less - does not equal overkill for these extremely well tested drugs (developed in the early 60's). They are usually prescribed for *years* to Women (Clomid Off Label to Men). A month or two with tapering dosages is nothing, IMO. And the possible damage that could occur is far greater from the anabolic compounds (SARMs/PHs - They are drugs too, let's not kid ourselves) then the SERMs. But I agree that blood work is the best case scenario.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I would say that 50mg C and 20mg N or less - does not equal overkill for these extremely well tested drugs (developed in the early 60's). They are usually prescribed for *years* to people (Clomid Off Label to Men). A month or two with tapering dosages is nothing, IMO. And the possible damage that could occur is far greater from the anabolic compounds (They are drugs too, let's not kid ourselves) then the SERMs. But I agree that blood work is the best case scenario.

I mean i definitely understand your point, but clomid for example has its own sides. Dudes get super emotional lol. My comments are not just about the pct, but the sarms which are compounds. They should be treated like a cycle. Cycles require bloodwork. Anyways who says that after these guys run a sarm they even need a pct in the first place? How do you know? Based on how you feel? Blood work is a no brainer. The issue is these dudes wanna play on the dark side and not take the responsisbilty for thier decision. Get bloods done. Pay the money and stay as healthy as possible while doing it.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

So you draw your own blood? The only way for life extension to work is that they send a vile and blood draw kit and you draw your own blood and mail it in. Not sure I am qualified to draw my own blood so I will pass on that option.

Driving to another state doesn't work since they check your license for residency.

Anyway, I am sure there are options, but it is definitely not an easy process.

Yes. I get it drawn by a nurse i know. If i couldnt, i would just do it myself.

Its funny because i know this dude who goes to ct to get it done. Maybe it depends on facility... Idk

 

[jmero2]

Yes. I get it drawn by a nurse i know. If i couldnt, i would just do it myself.

Its funny because i know this dude who goes to ct to get it done. Maybe it depends on facility... Idk

I have no issues here in Massachusetts, the last 3 bloods were done with no orders at all.

 

[nitemare16]

I ask my doctor and get it done right in the office...

 

[Audioph1x]

What is up cool dudes? Started LGD today and I have not tried it before. Anyone like a low dose for about 8 weeks?
Edit- before anyone asks if I've read the thread, I am gonna try 60 days at 5mg but just wondering if 30@10mg would be more effective. I have adex and clomid on hand as always..

 

[Vioros]

Just my personal opinon. And taking into account that it needs some time to kick in.. I've run 2 cycles so far and for me it was the strongest at 8-15. Before that nothing really worth the danger of suppression.
However there are people with great results at this doses. Taper up and find the lowest yet most sufficient dose

 

[Toren]

What is up cool dudes? Started LGD today and I have not tried it before. Anyone like a low dose for about 8 weeks?
Edit- before anyone asks if I've read the thread, I am gonna try 60 days at 5mg but just wondering if 30@10mg would be more effective. I have adex and clomid on hand as always..

Based upon what I've read and my past experience with LGD, I'd suggest a 40 or 45 day run, with what you have on hand. I'm guessing you either have 60 5mg caps or you have RC LGD which is 10mg/ml @ 30ml...

45 days - 5mg for 30 days, followed by 10mg for 15 days. (if capsules)
40 days - 5mg for 20 days, followed by 10mg for 20 days. (if capsules)
40 days - 7.5mg for 40 days. (if RC liquid)

You may respond well to 5mg but I've seen others suggest that 4-5mg didn't do much for them. I think it will come down to the quality of the LGD that you have. For me, 8mg was nice and 12mg was very nice. My last LGD run was only 37 days and I saw incredible results. I'll experiemnt with 16mg next (8-8-8-12-12-12-16-16-16).

If you start out at 5mg and are seeing nice results, you could then decide to stay the course or bump up for greater effect. Personally, I would not opt for a 30 x 10 protocol as 30 days is too short of a cycle to maximize gains.

 

[Audioph1x]

Thank you guys I appreciate it. It's not outside the realm of possibility to just grab another bottle and go 60 @ 10. Toren I appreciate the break down. I will try 5mg for 20days and bump up then. Thanks.

 

[Toren]

Thank you guys I appreciate it. It's not outside the realm of possibility to just grab another bottle and go 60 @ 10. Toren I appreciate the break down. I will try 5mg for 20days and bump up then. Thanks.

No problem. I think 60 @ 10 would be dope. The only thing I regret about my 37 day run was that it wasn't longer. I decided to bridge into PMag/Trest but in hindsight I wish I had just stayed on the LGD as I was still making gains and had no noticeable side-effects to speak of.

 

[Audioph1x]

No problem. I think 60 @ 10 would be dope. The only thing I regret about my 37 day run was that it wasn't longer. I decided to bridge into PMag/Trest but in hindsight I wish I had just stayed on the LGD as I was still making gains and had no noticeable side-effects to speak of.

Yep, I'm convinced. 60 @ 10 it is Haha.

 

[Joe12]

Just wondering... If you are running OL Ar1macare pro during cycle, do you really need an AI on hand since ar1 has anti-estrogen already in it?