Rethinking on Berberine?

kissdadookie said:
There’s a lot of big guys saying a whole lot of things. Anecdotal doesn’t really mean much when we have actual placebo controlled data on this. Also, guys saying this that and the other, what are they really comparing it to? Do they know what their results would have been without it? No, they would not because they are not running the same routine at the same starting point even if they do try to do a AB comparison. So the best data we have is the placebo controlled data. Think about what these guys are saying when they say that it’s fine, they are basing it on the fact that they did make some gains. Nobody is arguing you can gain using it, the issue is they most certainly left gains on the table if they took it around their workout. You’re also talking about their subjective look, the data with placebo control looked at muscle mass accrual. It’s quite possible they have better insulin sensitivity but when you’re trying to maximize muscle gain, they look doesn’t mean much, it’s how much muscle you have gained.

N=1 anecdote is pretty meaningless, if this wasn’t the case, Tony Huge and his crew would be the cream of the crop since they go entirely off of anecdote and feels. Just saying.
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And Tony huge is a schmuck lol. I hate that guy
 
Rostam said:
I see where this label is coming from. When I saw that I said sweet, cheap C3G but then realized they just say it contains C3G, no amount listed.
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Exactly. So think about it like this - you're pretty knowledgeable and it almost got you; so as you can imagine 95%+ of general consumers are going to think what you did at first and view one by a company doing it right as dramatically overpriced even if it isn't.
 
kissdadookie said:
You’re gauging look = muscle mass gain. It’s very likely it gives him better insulin sensitivity, but I’m talking about gaining lean mass and if you are leaving potential muscle mass on the table.
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I know studies are important, but I think a lot of us leave gains on the table by worrying about the studies instead of trying it out for ourselves. Not even specifically metformin, with lots of things. A study is great but we need to apply it in our own real life situation and find out for ourselves. Then we truly know what is working.
 
Smont said:
I know studies are important, but I think a lot of us leave gains on the table by worrying about the studies instead of trying it out for ourselves. Not even specifically metformin, with lots of things. A study is great but we need to apply it in our own real life situation and find out for ourselves. Then we truly know what is working.
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I'm not going to get involved in the metformin conversation because since I work for a company, I don't discuss prescription drug use. But I agree with a point you made in general - I've seen people say something works great for them and then the same person quit taking it bc a study comes out and says it doesn't do this or that. If it's working for you and getting results, screw what the study says. People can respond differently to different things; I say that a lot in my posts.
 
Smont said:
I know studies are important, but I think a lot of us leave gains on the table by worrying about the studies instead of trying it out for ourselves. Not even specifically metformin, with lots of things. A study is great but we need to apply it in our own real life situation and find out for ourselves. Then we truly know what is working.
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A lot of things, especially with sports nutrition, performance aimed special diets, training programs, etc. relies virtually entirely on some subjective anecdotes. If they based it on objective measures and honestly represented it, they would go out of business. We are still trying to spin turk and ecdy for goodness sakes. When we have solid human data, we should use that. It’s when there’s a lack of that for which we will be reliant on trial and error + feels. Metformin we have solid human data on. If you are saying hey, getting contest ready, the metformin has a aesthetic benefit for the user, cool, go for it. Now, how about all other scenarios? Specifically around a workout. Probably not a good idea because the aesthetics don’t mean that much. If you’re on a bulk, leaving gains on the table is leaving gains on the table. I’m not saying studies are king, I’m saying when you have solid data, look at it, understand it, then apply it. Again, I didn’t say don’t use metformin. What I said is that it’s likely not a good idea to take around a workout as you are lowering the anabolic signaling. This data is very clear.

Just to give you an idea, the human study used healthy participants (granted, older men) with a placebo group and a metformin group. Both groups used a progressive resistance training program (meaning, progressive overload, this obviously transfers over to our own scenario). Placebo gained nearly double the amount of muscle mass vs the metformin group. There was also noted type 1 fiber loss in the metformin group. They were using 1.7 grams of metformin a day iirc. There was also less strength gain in the metformin group. The mechanism for which this happened is the down regulation of MTORC1. Think about this, we are constantly trying to do things to increase mTOR activity, so how does it make sense to use something that will directly inhibit that?
 
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kissdadookie said:
A lot of things, especially with sports nutrition, performance aimed special diets, training programs, etc. relies virtually entirely on some subjective anecdotes. If they based it on objective measures and honestly represented it, they would go out of business. We are still trying to spin turk and ecdy for goodness sakes. When we have solid human data, we should use that. It’s when there’s a lack of that for which we will be reliant on trial and error + feels. Metformin we have solid human data on. If you are saying hey, getting contest ready, the metformin has a aesthetic benefit for the user, cool, go for it. Now, how about all other scenarios? Specifically around a workout. Probably not a good idea because the aesthetics don’t mean that much. If you’re on a bulk, leaving gains on the table is leaving gains on the table. I’m not saying studies are king, I’m saying when you have solid data, look at it, understand it, then apply it. Again, I didn’t say don’t use metformin. What I said is that it’s likely not a good idea to take around a workout as you are lowering the anabolic signaling. This data is very clear.

Just to give you an idea, the human study used healthy participants (granted, older men) with a placebo group and a metformin group. Both groups used a progressive resistance training program (meaning, progressive overload, this obviously transfers over to our own scenario). Placebo gained nearly double the amount of muscle mass vs the metformin group. There was also noted type 1 fiber loss in the metformin group. They were using 1.7 grams of metformin a day iirc. There was also less strength gain in the metformin group. The mechanism for which this happened is the down regulation of MTORC1. Think about this, we are constantly trying to do things to increase mTOR activity, so how does it make sense to use something that will directly inhibit that?
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I can't argue with the studies and your logic makes 100% sense. All I'm saying is I got multiple friends/ ppl I personally know that all seem to agree metformin around 2gm combined with steroids and gh helps them with muscle growth and has a cosmetic effect that is better then the same cycle without metformin. On top of that I can see the results with my own eyes. And what I'm seeing leads me to go the total opposite direction of what the studies say. They might wrong, I might be wrong, but what I can see tells me otherwise. When I have a extra grand sitting around to splurge on gh and metformin and can make sure I'm 100% on track il try it for myself. And I'm looking forward to it. These guys are a lot bigger then me, some of them actual friends I've known most of my life, one of them use to compete. Not that it's important but I doubt he would keep doing something that's counterproductive. Again, maybe he's wrong. But it does not appear that way to me. At the end of the day, this is my opinion, there opinion and broscience I guess. But I've seen a lot of broscience outperform the lab coats and that appears to be the case here, in my eyes at least
 
Smont said:
I can't argue with the studies and your logic makes 100% sense. All I'm saying is I got multiple friends/ ppl I personally know that all seem to agree metformin around 2gm combined with steroids and gh helps them with muscle growth and has a cosmetic effect that is better then the same cycle without metformin. On top of that I can see the results with my own eyes. And what I'm seeing leads me to go the total opposite direction of what the studies say. They might wrong, I might be wrong, but what I can see tells me otherwise. When I have a extra grand sitting around to splurge on gh and metformin and can make sure I'm 100% on track il try it for myself. And I'm looking forward to it. These guys are a lot bigger then me, some of them actual friends I've known most of my life, one of them use to compete. Not that it's important but I doubt he would keep doing something that's counterproductive. Again, maybe he's wrong. But it does not appear that way to me. At the end of the day, this is my opinion, there opinion and broscience I guess. But I've seen a lot of broscience outperform the lab coats and that appears to be the case here, in my eyes at least
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I don’t doubt you saw what you saw. I’m with you that there must have been a positive aesthetic effect, here’s my thoughts on this. Couldn’t the aesthetic effects been achieved with using insulin? I would think that you would get a more immediate effect as well. It’s interesting, I’m not that well versed in the topic of insulin use. There’s also the question of if the aesthetic effects could be achieved by using metformin on non training days only. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 
kissdadookie said:
I don’t doubt you saw what you saw. I’m with you that there must have been a positive aesthetic effect, here’s my thoughts on this. Couldn’t the aesthetic effects been achieved with using insulin? I would think that you would get a more immediate effect as well. It’s interesting, I’m not that well versed in the topic of insulin use. There’s also the question of if the aesthetic effects could be achieved by using metformin on non training days only. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
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I'd have to talk more to them about it. I'm going to a cookout with one of them Monday so il pick his brain a little
 
Also not all of us are on test and gh and whatever else, we can't afford to leave any lbm on the table. Dihydraberberine is a better option imo but as it has been stated, people do respond differently to drugs and compounds. Good discussion in here
 
ironkill said:
Also not all of us are on test and gh and whatever else, we can't afford to leave any lbm on the table. Dihydraberberine is a better option imo but as it has been stated, people do respond differently to drugs and compounds. Good discussion in here
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Being on steroids and gh while taking it is a huge factor, I don't think many if anyone would say metformin on its own is going to directly build muscle, same for berberine.

I've never heard of dihydraberberine, I gotta look that one up
 
ironkill said:
Also not all of us are on test and gh and whatever else, we can't afford to leave any lbm on the table. Dihydraberberine is a better option imo but as it has been stated, people do respond differently to drugs and compounds. Good discussion in here
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Dihydroberberine is a interesting ingredient. I wish we had in vivo data for it. I’m wondering if it would have the actual AMPK effects (I believe that the purported AMPK effects have been based on in vitro data, which is problematic because we know that berberine has horrible bioavailability thus getting it into systemic circulation has always been an issue) instead of mainly the inhibition of alpha-glucosidase (seen in vivo) that regular berberine has, making it more in line and comparable with metformin in terms of mechanism of action.
 
Smont said:
Being on steroids and gh while taking it is a huge factor, I don't think many if anyone would say metformin on its own is going to directly build muscle, same for berberine.

I've never heard of dihydraberberine, I gotta look that one up
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I wasn't trying to infer metformin builds muscle, I've been saying the opposite, that it can hinder it. I think my point was that as a natty it's much more difficult to build muscle compared to a geared individual (duh) so for that reason I would avoid metformin at least for now. I want to build every last ounce I can.
 
kissdadookie said:
Dihydroberberine is a interesting ingredient. I wish we had in vivo data for it. I’m wondering if it would have the actual AMPK effects (I believe that the purported AMPK effects have been based on in vitro data, which is problematic because we know that berberine has horrible bioavailability thus getting it into systemic circulation has always been an issue) instead of mainly the inhibition of alpha-glucosidase (seen in vivo) that regular berberine has, making it more in line and comparable with metformin in terms of mechanism of action.
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That could very well be the case. Generally I think healthy diets and good amounts of strength training and cardio and maybe some cold exposure will give you the enhanced insulin sensitivity anyway and improve our ability to use carbs and shuttle nutrients into the muscles that we'd be looking for from such compounds
 
@kissdadookie your thoughts seem to be in line with Mike Arnold's thoughts about a GDA and how he developed his product Insuligen. Take a read of his write-up on it if you haven't already and let me know what you think.
 
ironkill said:
I wasn't trying to infer metformin builds muscle, I've been saying the opposite, that it can hinder it. I think my point was that as a natty it's much more difficult to build muscle compared to a geared individual (duh) so for that reason I would avoid metformin at least for now. I want to build every last ounce I can.
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Ya, I completely understood what you were saying
 
You we're saying that you don't have the gear in place and I said that the gear is a factor for metformin not being counterproductive. I'm not sure why you thought I ment something else.
 
Smont said:
You we're saying that you don't have the gear in place and I said that the gear is a factor for metformin not being counterproductive. I'm not sure why you thought I ment something else.
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I think it was the part where you said "I don't think many if anyone would say metformin on its own is going to directly build muscle, same for berberine." I just wanted to clarify I didn't think that was the case. Anyway appreciate your input in this discussion, you raised some good points
 
THEstudent said:
@kissdadookie your thoughts seem to be in line with Mike Arnold's thoughts about a GDA and how he developed his product Insuligen. Take a read of his write-up on it if you haven't already and let me know what you think.
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This is an interesting product. The mechanisms appear to be mainly insulin agonists, so the mechanisms appear sound. Even though some of these ingredients do have inhibition of certain enzymes needed for breakdown of starches, they appear to be doing so to a much lesser extent than berberine does (it appears that the inhibition of alpha-glycosidase is the main mechanism in vivo for its positive metabolic effects).
 
Smont said:
You we're saying that you don't have the gear in place and I said that the gear is a factor for metformin not being counterproductive. I'm not sure why you thought I ment something else.
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I think metformin should be part of ones program especially when running insulin and GH, it’s kind of necessary for the purpose of both health and being able to utilize carbs better as insulin and GH use is eventually going to create an issue with insulin sensitivity. I do however, think that the dosing can be more strategically done so as to mitigate as much of its mTOR dampening effects. So use of it is likely desirable, just use it intelligently is my opinion. Your friends use definitely has a good use case for it as well especially if he’s getting ready for a show and it provides a massive aesthetic benefit.
 
Does anyone know if berberine damages dna in healthy cells, or is it just in cancerous cells? the dna damaging effect put me off using it,
 
Smont said:
It's not damaging healthy cells
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Maybe actually read the study, not make unconsidered statements.

OP, i think this aspect of study is pertinent:
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With every compound, dosage makes the poison, this is a good study that people using big doses of Berberine should seriously consider, especially if its an enhanced absorption preparation.
 
Damn that study is a bummer.

Guess I’m just going to take the IGF1 hit with Metformin if I really need the glucose support. Already done having kids.
 
Hyde said:
Damn that study is a bummer.

Guess I’m just going to take the IGF1 hit with Metformin if I really need the glucose support. Already done having kids.
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C3G is my choice. Its not cheap but it works and dont mess with gains.
I dont touch mTOR inhibitor compounds
 
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NoAddedHmones said:
Maybe actually read the study, not make unconsidered statements.

OP, i think this aspect of study is pertinent:
View attachment 215535

With every compound, dosage makes the poison, this is a good study that people using big doses of Berberine should seriously consider, especially if its an enhanced absorption preparation.
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Here is the study:

Invalid Link Removed
 
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ironkill said:
Agreed. Any reputable sources out there or do you use Biotest?
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I remember Chormadex had a C3G product and it was not any cheaper than Biotest.
Honestly, at this point, the only solid dosed C3G product is Biotest Indigo-3G.
 
K21 said:
Invalid Link Removed they say human dose would be 400mg per day
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Berberine has health benefits..No doubt about that. But I rather take compounds boosting mTOR signaling activation than inhibiting it
 
Danes said:
Berberine has health benefits..No doubt about that. But I rather take compounds boosting mTOR signaling activation than inhibiting it
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And what do you think about it’s potential DNA damaging activity? I found at least two other studies on that.
 
Danes said:
Berberine has health benefits..No doubt about that. But I rather take compounds boosting mTOR signaling activation than inhibiting it
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The steroid-using athlete however need not worry about mTOR inhibition; I can take a bit more gear and easily override any opposing signaling from something like Berberine.

The bigger agenda is mitigating some of the inevitable cardiovascular & metabolic damage that comes from overdriving growth beyond a natural level.
 
Hyde said:
The steroid-using athlete however need not worry about mTOR inhibition; I can take a bit more gear and easily override any opposing signaling from something like Berberine.

The bigger agenda is mitigating some of the inevitable cardiovascular & metabolic damage that comes from overdriving growth beyond a natural level.
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This.
 
Rostam said:
And what do you think about it’s potential DNA damaging activity? I found at least two other studies on that.
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I havent seen any in vivo studies supporting this.
But this may be interesting:
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Danes said:
I havent seen any in vivo studies supporting this.
But this may be interesting:
Invalid Link Removed
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Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of studies showing it’s health, longevity and anti cancer benefit but recently seen few studies showing liver tumorogenicity potential. Now I don’t know what to think.
 
K21 said:
Would 500 mg once a day, 3 times a week be safe long term for general health,
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This is exactly my concern. In the study @NoAddedHmones cited, the concentration at which DNA damage started was slightly above concentration of 300mg in single dose or 1200-2000mg in divided doses.
 
Rostam said:
Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of studies showing it’s health, longevity and anti cancer benefit but recently seen few studies showing liver tumorogenicity potential. Now I don’t know what to think.
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Totaly understand your concern and we dont know for sure if it will damage DNA or not. More studies are needed but I will definitely do some more research
 
Rostam said:
This is exactly my concern. In the study @NoAddedHmones cited, the concentration at which DNA damage started was slightly above concentration of 300mg in single dose or 1200-2000mg in divided doses.
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Actually if you look at the data, the “toxic” uM is nowhere near reached at 1200mg per day for 8 weeks.

enhanced forms are ones to be concerned about.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Actually if you look at the data, the “toxic” uM is nowhere near reached at 1200mg per day for 8 weeks.

enhanced forms are ones to be concerned about.
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The toxic uM in this study was at 3.125, the 1200mg for 8 weeks and 300mg single dose were 0.9 and 1.2 respectively. And they said themselves that this is pretty close.

« In our studies, toxic effect of berberine became apparent at 3.125 μM (Fig. 2), which is close to the plasma concentration detected in human blood samples. Thus, the use of berberine at the suggested clinically relevant levels may carry a risk of DNA damage. »
 
Rostam said:
The toxic uM in this study was at 3.125, the 1200mg for 8 weeks and 300mg single dose were 0.9 and 1.2 respectively. And they said themselves that this is pretty close.

« In our studies, toxic effect of berberine became apparent at 3.125 μM (Fig. 2), which is close to the plasma concentration detected in human blood samples. Thus, the use of berberine at the suggested clinically relevant levels may carry a risk of DNA damage. »
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Yep - that absorption curve shows the diminishing bioavailability with chronic dosing, thus will be pretty difficult to 3x the serum plasma concentration and reach the toxic levels…for non-enhanced absorption formulations.

However, we need to consider that the concentrations in other areas such as mouth, throat, stomach etc all will yield a substantially higher concentration and we don’t know if this is potentially damaging..food for thought.
 
K21 said:
Maby 150/200mg once a day few days a week could be ok, Invalid Link Removed
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I don’t know how they calculated the concentration in this article. In the study they said that in vitro concentration of 1.2-5uM was correlated to increased cancer cell proliferation. Based on the fist study posted hier it correspond to 300mg (single dose) to 2000mg (multiple dose). So I don’t see why in this article they say 200mg is way above the 1.2 to 5uM concentration. Maybe they forgot to take the low absorption of Berberine into consideration.

What they say here is not right. 200mg with 0.7% absorption would yield 1.4mg of berberine in the blood. Right in the 0.42-1.68mg range: « 1.25 – 5μM is between 0.42 – 1.68mg of berberine, which is a very very low dose. Even a “micro-dose” regimen at 200mg is far higher than the amount shown to encourage cancer growth and diminish activity of cancer medications. »
 
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