Rethinking on Berberine?

[kissdadookie]

So I’ve encountered some interesting papers which discuss the likely MOA of berberine and it was quite surprising to me because the MOA that these two papers point to is very different to what has been discussed in regards to how berberine works. It also raises a question for me in regards to if this ingredient is all that great of an ingredient to use for healthy individuals whom are aiming for performance rather than a medical need to lower their blood glucose levels and improve insulin sensitivity but metformin is not an option.

Now, we know that metformin likely has AMPK effects as well as mitochondrial effects. It is also readily bioavailabile as the majority of it does get absorbed through digestion. There are also unknown mechanisms which are not understood about metformin as well but the key here that I want to point out is that it is readily absorbed through digestion and it has been demonstrated that it has its effects directly at the cellular level as the drug does make it into cells to impart its effects.

Berberine, the effects of berberine on the measures of blood glucose and insulin levels are positive and it has of course been positively compared to metformin but the mechanism of action is assumed that it has similar MOAs as metformin (at least when one compares berberine freely and often to metformin, that is the implication being insinuated). Now in Berberine acutely inhibits the digestion of maltose in the intestine Zeng-Qiang Li et al. J Ethnopharmacol. 2012 and Inhibitory action of berberine on glucose absorption Guo-yu Pan et al. Yao Xue Xue Bao. 2003, it is suggested that the likely MOA of berberine is it’s inhibition of alpha-glucosidase. What does this imply? This would suggest that berberine inhibits the break down of starches to simple sugars. This MOA are also noted as likely major MOA for glucose and insulin controlling effects of berberine in the paper Berberine in Cardiovascular and Metabolic Diseases: From Mechanisms to Therapeutics Xiaojun Feng, Antoni Sureda, [...], and Ai-Zong Shen. So the question is this, as I’m not smart enough to answer it nor do I have any sort of research background to do so, is berberine actually all that great of an ingredient to use outside of a treatment for type 2 diabetics. Considering our purpose is wanting nutrient partitioning effects when using GDAs not nutrient malabsorption (effectively from what I understand, inhibiting alpha-glucosidase is effectively malabsorption of starches?). The major MOA here would suggest that the dominant effects it has in regards to glucose and insulin control has to do with it’s effects in the small intestine rather than at a cellular level like how metformin works. Both results in positive changes in markers but the two appear to do so by very different mechanisms where the one for berberine appears questionable for our purposes.

 

[Pl4typu5]

this last 4-5 weeks I switched from berberine to met and I’m enjoying it so much more, my body does not agree with berberine for some reason and normal met too but I stared using slow release Met and I’m getting no stomach discomfort or off feeling at all. The one thing I’m really noticing is it’s effected my appetite big time, before it I felt like I was hungry all the time now I’m forgetting to eat but when I do I can still eat the same amount as always but don’t have that constant “I need to eat” feeling. This could be a good thing or bad thing for some folks.

 

[kissdadookie]

this last 4-5 weeks I switched from berberine to met and I’m enjoying it so much more, my body does not agree with berberine for some reason and normal met too but I stared using slow release Met and I’m getting no stomach discomfort or off feeling at all. The one thing I’m really noticing is it’s effected my appetite big time, before it I felt like I was hungry all the time now I’m forgetting to eat but when I do I can still eat the same amount as always but don’t have that constant “I need to eat” feeling. This could be a good thing or bad thing for some folks.

Makes sense for berberine as to why it gave you GI issues, it’s notoriously bad in terms of being able to be digested and absorbed. Also, what I encountered in regards to the MOA of it being a strong inhibitor of alpha-glucosidase and thus suggesting the MOA to essentially be through malabsorption of starches, it makes a whole lot more sense as to why people get hungry using it (malabsorption of nutrients). Kind of suggests to me to be counterproductive when the goal is muscle mass and performance gains.

Just for the sake of transparency here, my line of questioning that lead me to look into this was due to hearing Patrick Arnold in an interview stating how great metformin was. It made me question why he gave so much praise to metformin but didn’t mention berberine even though berberine outperforms metformin when looking at bloodwork for glucose and insulin levels.

 

[Rostam]

interesting what you are saying here in regard to berberine and carb absorption but according to examin.com direct inhibition of carbohydrate digestive enzymes appears to be either weak or non-existent.

Research Breakdown on Berberine - Examine

examine.com

 

[kissdadookie]

interesting what you are saying here in regard to berberine and carb absorption but according to examin.com direct inhibition of carbohydrate digestive enzymes appears to be either weak or non-existent.

Research Breakdown on Berberine - Examine

examine.com

What they reference is in regards to glucose absorption. Alpha-glucosidase inhibition has to do with the breakdown of starches. So if breakdown of starches is being inhibited, you don’t even get to the point where it breaks down to glucose from what I understand. Thus the reason I brought up the MOA of berberine’s effects on controlling glucose and insulin levels appear to be heavily dependent on malabsorption of carbs rather than how it works for metformin which is at a cellular level.

So think about that for a moment, is blocking the breakdown of carbs to usable glucose a good thing for our purposes? You need that glucose and you want that glucose because you are hoping to direct it to be stored as muscle glycogen preferentially over it being converted to fats and stores in your fat cells. You’re looking for nutrient partitioning effects in a GDA, not nutrient blocking.

From what Examine is directly referencing from (it’s also one of the papers I referenced):

Conclusion: Berberine may act as an alpha-glucosidase inhibitor, which is its main mechanism in diabetes treatment.

That’s the suggested MOA in the paper which suggests it’s nutrient blocking (specifically starches).

Now I get it if one just wants to be able to eat food and dieting thus wanting to minimize the negative impact of the food on a diet but we see berberine being a foundational ingredient in GDAs and a GDA product’s main goal should be nutrient partitioning so if indeed berberine is mainly nutrient blocking, to me that doesn’t make a lot of sense as it’s the wrong tool for the job. Kind of doing the opposite of what a GDA is meant to do.

 

[semtex]

Doesn't metformin have an effect on igf-1? That's why is being looked at for anti aging purposes

 

[kissdadookie]

Doesn't metformin have an effect on igf-1? That's why is being looked at for anti aging purposes

That’s one of the reasons for metformin. Berberine is also heavily marketed as something great for anti-aging/longevity. Shawn Wells praises it up and down.

Now, there very well may be great health benefits for taking berberine (the data looks good, granted a lot of it is based on in vitro data) but my line of thinking here is that this may not be great used in a GDA.

 

[Rostam]

What they reference is in regards to glucose absorption. Alpha-glucosidase inhibition has to do with the breakdown of starches. So if breakdown of starches is being inhibited, you don’t even get to the point where it breaks down to glucose from what I understand. Thus the reason I brought up the MOA of berberine’s effects on controlling glucose and insulin levels appear to be heavily dependent on malabsorption of carbs rather than how it works for metformin which is at a cellular level.

So think about that for a moment, is blocking the breakdown of carbs to usable glucose a good thing for our purposes? You need that glucose and you want that glucose because you are hoping to direct it to be stored as muscle glycogen preferentially over it being converted to fats and stores in your fat cells. You’re looking for nutrient partitioning effects in a GDA, not nutrient blocking.

From what Examine is directly referencing from (it’s also one of the papers I referenced):

Conclusion: Berberine may act as an alpha-glucosidase inhibitor, which is its main mechanism in diabetes treatment.

That’s the suggested MOA in the paper which suggests it’s nutrient blocking (specifically starches).

Now I get it if one just wants to be able to eat food and dieting thus wanting to minimize the negative impact of the food on a diet but we see berberine being a foundational ingredient in GDAs and a GDA product’s main goal should be nutrient partitioning so if indeed berberine is mainly nutrient blocking, to me that doesn’t make a lot of sense as it’s the wrong tool for the job. Kind of doing the opposite of what a GDA is meant to do.

But this is also true for other GDAs like Gymnema which inhibits absorption of glucose. So basically almost none of the GDAs are acceptable for our purpose neither would be Metformin as it’s a too strong activator of AMPK which is also not too good for our purpose.

 

[semtex]

So you think metformin would be the better of the two? I'm getting my hands on some metformin soon, do you have an idea on how to dose the metformin?

 

[Rostam]

Doesn't metformin have an effect on igf-1? That's why is being looked at for anti aging purposes

Metformin decrease IGF1 in children but increase it in adults.

The influence of metformin on IGF-1 levels in humans: A systematic review and meta-analysis

A meta-analysis is needed to comprehensively consolidate findings from the influence of metformin on IGF-1 levels. The present study was conducted wit…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[kissdadookie]

But this is also true for other GDAs like Gymnema which inhibits absorption of glucose. So basically almost none of the GDAs are acceptable for our purpose neither would be Metformine as it’s a too strong activator of AMPK which is also not too good for our purpose.

Think about this, metformin you want to take away from a workout. Something like berberine in a GDA you take before a meal. What would the point of that be?

 

[kissdadookie]

So you think metformin would be the better of the two? I'm getting my hands on some metformin soon, do you have an idea on how to dose the metformin?

Yes, and away from your workouts.

 

[Rostam]

So you think metformin would be the better of the two? I'm getting my hands on some metformin soon, do you have an idea on how to dose the metformin?

I don’t think metformin would be better as its a strong AMPK activator. Maybe a combination of
moderate dose of berberine and other actives like what we can find in many GDAs nowadays.

 

[semtex]

I don’t think metformin would be better as its a strong AMPK activator. Maybe a combination of
moderate dose of berberine and other actives like what we can find in many GDAs nowadays.

I'm only going to use it for anti-aging purposes

 

[Rostam]

I was thinking of using it myself at a low dose with my pre-workout meal hoping that working out would counteract its AMPK activation.

 

[kissdadookie]

I was thinking of using it myself at a low dose with my pre-workout meal hoping that working out would counteract its AMPK activation.

Metformin can stick around for up to 14 hours. Not sure the purpose of taking it pre-workout.

 

[Rostam]

True. But Metforin’s plasma half life is about 2-6h and it’s Tmax about 2h. So buy taking it preform out I was speculating I could take advantage of its effect and at the same time counteract it’s catabolic effect with exercise during its most active phase. Don’t know.

 

[kissdadookie]

True. But Metforin’s plasma half life is about 2-6h and it’s Tmax about 2h. So buy taking it preform out I was speculating I could take advantage of its effect and at the same time counteract it’s catabolic effect with exercise during its most active phase. Don’t know.

I’m not that clear on metformin’s effects on IGF-1 but from what I understand, one of the reasons it is promising for anti-tumor effects is that it actually lowers insulin and IGF-1 as it has effects on the IGF receptor (it also down regulates mTORC1, that’s more of a concern as to why it probably shouldn’t be take around workout time). So I’m unsure if taking it for any meaningful IGF-1 boosting properties would pan out. It definitely has positive effects on inhibiting gluconeogenesis via AMPK (this is a better MOA if the goal is to have more beneficial nutrient uptake, instead of blocking complex carbs altogether) so from a nutrient partitioning/mitigation of fat store standpoint, it has a promising use.

 

[kl1234]

I’m not that clear on metformin’s effects on IGF-1 but from what I understand, one of the reasons it is promising for anti-tumor effects is that it actually lowers insulin and IGF-1 as it has effects on the IGF receptor (it also down regulates mTORC1, that’s more of a concern as to why it probably shouldn’t be take around workout time). So I’m unsure if taking it for any meaningful IGF-1 boosting properties would pan out. It definitely has positive effects on inhibiting gluconeogenesis via AMPK (this is a better MOA if the goal is to have more beneficial nutrient uptake, instead of blocking complex carbs altogether) so from a nutrient partitioning/mitigation of fat store standpoint, it has a promising use.

I’ve heard some interesting theories on metformin/to a lesser degree berberine.
A good way to reap benefits and lessen the negatives- is to take it a few days a week(preferably non workout days). That way you’re getting a yo-yo effect as far as ampk and mtor go.

 

[ironkill]

I’ve heard some interesting theories on metformin/to a lesser degree berberine.
A good way to reap benefits and lessen the negatives- is to take it a few days a week(preferably non workout days). That way you’re getting a yo-yo effect as far as ampk and mtor go.

This is how many anti-agers who also want to increase muscle mass take it, non workout days

 

[barische]

Both black ginger, jiagulan has ampk activation benefits also which are alternatives

i am also currently on brite which has actives from jiagulan (gypenosides), +
berberine which i take 1 cap fasted in morning + black ginger extract from swanson.

 

[kissdadookie]

Both black ginger, jiagulan has ampk activation benefits also which are alternatives

i am also currently on brite which has actives from jiagulan (gypenosides), +
berberine which i take 1 cap fasted in morning + black ginger extract from swanson.

Probably, the best way to take metformin and other strong AMPK activators is probably on non-workout days and in the morning. Mainly to get that morning glucose dump cleared. Probably not a great idea to take it around workouts and probably a better idea to just use on non-workout days (I believe there is evidence showing that metformin has a negative affect on training in terms of being on it results in less muscle mass accumulation vs without it). That is the sense I’m getting from reading a bit more into this topic.

Berberine I’m not just so sure is a great ingredient to use for muscle building purposes as it would appear that the benefits with glucose and insulin control largely comes from nutrient malabsorption.

 

[BCseacow83]

I was thinking of using it myself at a low dose with my pre-workout meal hoping that working out would counteract its AMPK activation.

There are many subtypes of AMPK. Met increase a2 vs a1 I believe, A1 is associated with mtor inhibition. Basically don't worry about it. Studies show no loss of muscle in people NOT living a BB lifestyle so the chances it will hinder you pale in comparison to the potential benefits.

On IGF-1 reductions: I believe the study showing this in adults used elderly men consuming roughly 70g of protein a day. Now if that describes one's BB diet they have issues bigger than a marginal decrease in IGF-1.

 

[ironkill]

There are many subtypes of AMPK. Met increase a2 vs a1 I believe, A1 is associated with mtor inhibition. Basically don't worry about it. Studies show no loss of muscle in people NOT living a BB lifestyle so the chances it will hinder you pale in comparison to the potential benefits.

On IGF-1 reductions: I believe the study showing this in adults used elderly men consuming roughly 70g of protein a day. Now if that describes one's BB diet they have issues bigger than a marginal decrease in IGF-1.

I don't think it's the loss of muscle you should be concerned as much as the amount of muscle left on the table. Studies have shown those on metformin don't build as much muscle as those not using. I do believe it has a lot of beneficial properties however

 

[kissdadookie]

I don't think it's the loss of muscle you should be concerned as much as the amount of muscle left on the table. Studies have shown those on metformin don't build as much muscle as those not using. I do believe it has a lot of beneficial properties however

^^^ This. Totally inhibiting muscle growth isn’t the actual issue, it’s that you are likely going to accrue less muscle mass.

 

[BCseacow83]

I don't think it's the loss of muscle you should be concerned as much as the amount of muscle left on the table. Studies have shown those on metformin don't build as much muscle as those not using. I do believe it has a lot of beneficial properties however

Fair enough but how much of that will translate over to a guy eating 300g of protein a day and weight training and perhaps even using PEDs....................................I just don't see it being enough to matter.

 

[kissdadookie]

Fair enough but how much of that will translate over to a guy eating 300g of protein a day and weight training and perhaps even using PEDs....................................I just don't see it being enough to matter.

I think it definitely does. Remember, androgens increases the effects of mTOR. Metformin has direct mTORC1 inhibition. It’s directly inhibiting the signaling for growth.

Now, obviously it does not completely negate it, but there is solid data showing that it results in less muscle mass accrual. For a person using gear, I would think it would hinder them as well since the anabolics in a very simplified explanation, increases the capacity for growth. The whole point of using them is to increase capacity for growth so why would you counteract the main reason for using them for PED purposes?

 

[chainsaw]

Probably, the best way to take metformin and other strong AMPK activators is probably on non-workout days and in the morning. Mainly to get that morning glucose dump cleared. Probably not a great idea to take it around workouts and probably a better idea to just use on non-workout days (I believe there is evidence showing that metformin has a negative affect on training in terms of being on it results in less muscle mass accumulation vs without it). That is the sense I’m getting from reading a bit more into this topic.

Berberine I’m not just so sure is a great ingredient to use for muscle building purposes as it would appear that the benefits with glucose and insulin control largely comes from nutrient malabsorption.

I have taking berberine before bed as I thought it would be better to dump extra glucose before sleeping, still looking for most ideal time to take

 

[kissdadookie]

I have taking berberine before bed as I thought it would be better to dump extra glucose before sleeping, still looking for most ideal time to take

I think with a cheat meal makes sense, in the sense that you want to minimize the caloric effects of the meal (just keep in mind, berberine is likely not so much nutrient partitioning but rather nutrient blocking in the small intestines). Away from a workout. Post workout meals and pre workout meals, you want those nutrients to make it into your muscles due to the anabolic stimulus from the workout.

 

[kissdadookie]

I was thinking about what are actually good ingredients that would work extremely well as a GDA. Cyanidin 3-glucoside comes to mind. It’s orally bioavailable and and has a significant and direct upregulation of GLUT4. Unfortunately that stuff is expensive AF. I have used a whole lot of it over a period of months though, one of my favorite ingredients. Was using it at 600 mg a day.

This ingredient is also a strong anti-oxidant for the kidneys and is renal protective. Good data that shows it also shifts preferentially the fuel source to fat oxidization (I think mainly as a PPAR alpha agonist).

 

[Rostam]

There are other options if you want to take advantage if GD activity without impacting carbs digestion like Agmatine, Na-RALA And maybe Banaba.

 

[BCseacow83]

I think it definitely does. Remember, androgens increases the effects of mTOR. Metformin has direct mTORC1 inhibition. It’s directly inhibiting the signaling for growth.

Now, obviously it does not completely negate it, but there is solid data showing that it results in less muscle mass accrual. For a person using gear, I would think it would hinder them as well since the anabolics in a very simplified explanation, increases the capacity for growth. The whole point of using them is to increase capacity for growth so why would you counteract the main reason for using them for PED purposes?

(4) Does Metformin inhibit your Gains - YouTube

He goes into great detail as to why this is really not an issue. I personally would side with the increased insulin sensitivity as being more beneficial to one's physique than any potential inhibition of mtor(which he explains does not happen).

 

[kissdadookie]

(4) Does Metformin inhibit your Gains - YouTube

He goes into great detail as to why this is really not an issue. I personally would side with the increased insulin sensitivity as being more beneficial to one's physique than any potential inhibition of mtor(which he explains does not happen).

This paper says the opposite:

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The data thus far would suggest to not use it around workouts. It’s not that you won’t make gains, it’s that you will end up making less of them. The MOA for metformin lines up with why that is the case.

 

[kissdadookie]

There are other options if you want to take advantage if GD activity without impacting carbs digestion like Agmatine, Na-RALA And maybe Banaba.

Na-RALA in conjunction with training I think the data shows it does not increase benefits beyond what the training stimulus provides. Agmatines benefits in treating T2D is not also that applicable in our application, in my opinion. Good for health though, but my focus here is performance and lean mass accrual. Banaba is actually quite excellent, the mechanism for it doesn’t seem to be relevant with wanting to directing more glycogen into muscles though (which is what I’m personally interested in with GDAs).

I guess a lot of this depends on what your goals are, if it’s simply to be more lax with calories without having as large of an impact from it or if it’s trying to maximize glycogen in muscles.

My observations is also with how GDAs are marketed and one of the main ways people use them (post workout meals or preworkout meals, due to the marketing promising that it will direct glycogen into muscles).

 

[ironkill]

(4) Does Metformin inhibit your Gains - YouTube

He goes into great detail as to why this is really not an issue. I personally would side with the increased insulin sensitivity as being more beneficial to one's physique than any potential inhibition of mtor(which he explains does not happen).

Metformin also had a massive recall due to safety concerns of high amounts of NDMA

 

[Rostam]

@kissdadookie, In one of your previous posts you suggested Cyanidin 3-glucoside. There are very few of it on the market, where do you find yours beside Biotest and LEF? What dosage do you take?

 

[kissdadookie]

@kissdadookie, In one of your previous posts you suggested Cyanidin 3-glucoside. There are very few of it on the market, where do you find yours beside Biotest and LEF? What dosage do you take?

I have only ever used the Biotest one, which I think they don’t make anymore? Have not seen it in stock in a long while. It’s hard to find these days. Look for black bean extract. Those typically are standardized for C3G, very expensive @ 600 mg a day, doesn’t matter what brand you go with. In my honest opinion, Biotest’s product was actually really well priced (after the initial price when it first came out, which was insane, it had come down since then when I started using it). It still cost me $110 a month for it. My favorite natural product. That and the Plazma stuff (that’s just HBCD +
citrulline + casein hydrolysate, way way way way before the popularity they have now as every company now has a intra it would look like, and citrulline being in everything).

I can basically guarantee you that it’s not a prominent ingredient due to how expensive it is, but us supplement junkies spend so much on random supplements, a lot of people could have just taken that money and spent it on C3G, perhaps even help lower the price eventually.

 

[Stern3657]

Has @sns8778 considered a better priced C3G product? I had always wanted to try as well (and have a friend who had good results) but I could never pull the trigger on the Biotest price.

 

[kissdadookie]

Has @sns8778 considered a better priced C3G product? I had always wanted to try as well (and have a friend who had good results) but I could never pull the trigger on the Biotest price.

I hear you. I’m pretty certain it’s just price prohibitive and the sticker shock alone I think would make the majority of the sports nutrition industry shy away from it (if the price is consumer friendly, the margins wouldn’t be there to make it worth it for them, far easier to sell pros and stims for example at far greater margins, I think it really comes down to cost of producing the raws).

Think about price of blueberries, you’re basically eating several dollars worth of blueberries… every day. LoL. Expensive. I just looked up the C3G content on fruits. Highest is going to be black elderberries which is about 794mg per 100 grams. That is a average as the low end is around 300mg and the high end is around 1200mg. I’m not even sure how accurate that chart is. Blueberries supposedly has like 1.7mg per 100 grams (again, a average).

 

[sns8778]

Has @sns8778 considered a better priced C3G product? I had always wanted to try as well (and have a friend who had good results) but I could never pull the trigger on the Biotest price.

I've thought about it but not sure the sales would justify it. I'm open to it if enough people want one.

2 of the main problems with doing it are lack of overall popularity and demand and then the cost to make it.

But another big problem is companies naming products C3G Complex when the ingredients are actually:

Black Bean Extract Complex (Phaseolus vulgaris) (seed) (Contains naturally-occuring C3G)

1,250 mg

^^^ They are not mislabeling. It's marketing savvy but very misleading to the average customer that doesn't understand what it means. But most would read this and think it has 1,250 mg. C3G and its cheap, so why would they buy one that's more expensive. This was the original reason when I looked into it that I didn't do one.

 

[kissdadookie]

I've thought about it but not sure the sales would justify it. I'm open to it if enough people want one.

2 of the main problems with doing it are lack of overall popularity and demand and then the cost to make it.

But another big problem is companies naming products C3G Complex when the ingredients are actually:

Black Bean Extract Complex (Phaseolus vulgaris) (seed) (Contains naturally-occuring C3G)

1,250 mg

^^^ They are not mislabeling. It's marketing savvy but very misleading to the average customer that doesn't understand what it means. But most would read this and think it has 1,250 mg. C3G and its cheap, so why would they buy one that's more expensive. This was the original reason when I looked into it that I didn't do one.

Yup. Super expensive ingredients. There use to be actually more C3G standardized products on the market with pretty high concentrations of C3G, I remember them being from bigger well known health supplement brands, I did the math on them for what it would costs for a month at 600mg a day (I was comparing it to the Biotest one obviously, trying to see if I could get it cheaper, nope, they cost as much as the Biotest one if not more) and they were very expensive.

The Biotest product was a well thought out one as it contains a self-emulsifier which is in line with how the in vivo study which showed significantly improved blood glucose levels were administered. If SNS were to come out with a comparable product, this would most certainly peak my interest I don’t believe powders work well for this ingredient as it has horrible bioavailability unless it was mixed with a self emulsifier. Also probably would start staining things if there’s residue on the capsules (like curcumin).

 

[Stern3657]

I've thought about it but not sure the sales would justify it. I'm open to it if enough people want one.

2 of the main problems with doing it are lack of overall popularity and demand and then the cost to make it.

But another big problem is companies naming products C3G Complex when the ingredients are actually:

Black Bean Extract Complex (Phaseolus vulgaris) (seed) (Contains naturally-occuring C3G)

1,250 mg

^^^ They are not mislabeling. It's marketing savvy but very misleading to the average customer that doesn't understand what it means. But most would read this and think it has 1,250 mg. C3G and its cheap, so why would they buy one that's more expensive. This was the original reason when I looked into it that I didn't do one.

I would definitely be interested but I understand those concerns. Do you have a sense for where you may be able to price a month’s supply at 600mg per day if you were to do one?

 

[sns8778]

I would definitely be interested but I understand those concerns. Do you have a sense for where you may be able to price a month’s supply at 600mg per day if you were to do one?

I'll check on updated pricing next week and see what the cost would be. I haven't checked raw material pricing on this in a long time. But I'll be glad to.

 

[Rostam]

I've thought about it but not sure the sales would justify it. I'm open to it if enough people want one.

2 of the main problems with doing it are lack of overall popularity and demand and then the cost to make it.

But another big problem is companies naming products C3G Complex when the ingredients are actually:

Black Bean Extract Complex (Phaseolus vulgaris) (seed) (Contains naturally-occuring C3G)

1,250 mg

^^^ They are not mislabeling. It's marketing savvy but very misleading to the average customer that doesn't understand what it means. But most would read this and think it has 1,250 mg. C3G and its cheap, so why would they buy one that's more expensive. This was the original reason when I looked into it that I didn't do one.

I see where this label is coming from. When I saw that I said sweet, cheap C3G but then realized they just say it contains C3G, no amount listed.

 

[kissdadookie]

I see where this label is coming from. When I saw that I said sweet, cheap C3G but then realized they just say it contains C3G, no amount listed.

There is one that states the content. So for that particular one, it’s 30 mg per serving. You have to basically take 20 capsules to get the 600mg. It’s about $84 for a 9 day supply. On top of that, oral bioavailability for this ingredient is terrible, the in vivo data was with a self emulsifying agent, so have to keep that in mind as well (that black beans extract I believe is just powdered extract, the pharma-grade self emulsifying agent would require gel caps as it’s not a solid or dry agent). So what you can mainly find on the market often don’t standardize for C3G and even when they do, you’re lacking that self emulsifying agent.

You can quickly understand why it’s not that prevalent in the sports nutrition industry. Also, another thing to keep in mind, C3G is THE anthocyanin that are in studies. So much of the data on benefits of cyanosis and why you should eat dark skinned/colored plants and fruits is for this ingredient. In vivo there is a dose dependent lowering of blood glucose (rat study, also tested for bioavailability in the study, they used Labrasol which is a self emulsifying agent). 33% and 51%. It meets a lot of the criterias I look for in ingredients (in vivo data, bioavailability data). There’s also human bioavailability data on this. The rat data does strongly suggest that you really want to have then ingredient in a self emulsifying agent though.

 

[Smont]

Probably, the best way to take metformin and other strong AMPK activators is probably on non-workout days and in the morning. Mainly to get that morning glucose dump cleared. Probably not a great idea to take it around workouts and probably a better idea to just use on non-workout days (I believe there is evidence showing that metformin has a negative affect on training in terms of being on it results in less muscle mass accumulation vs without it). That is the sense I’m getting from reading a bit more into this topic.

Berberine I’m not just so sure is a great ingredient to use for muscle building purposes as it would appear that the benefits with glucose and insulin control largely comes from nutrient malabsorption.

The metformin thing with stopping or giving less gains does not play out in real life. There are plenty of big guys who swear by metformin at 2gm a day will dramatically improve your muscle size and the overall look to your physique. I've seen it first hand in quite a few ppl. Now given these are much larger then average guys to begin with, adding metformin to there cycle with anabolics and gh, once they hit that 1.5-2 dose daily it starts giving you that full round pumped up all the time look and once metformin was stopped that look went away.

I know there's a million studies or whatever but I gotta take what I've seen in multiple ppls results over any of these studies. The ppl who avoid metformin specifically for fear of inhibiting muscle growth are doing themselves a huge injustice. If your already on a cycle with gh include and you can afford that dose of metformin it's only going to help.

If I could afford the gh and metformin at that dose I wouldn't hesitate to add it

 

[kissdadookie]

The metformin thing with stopping or giving less gains does not play out in real life. There are plenty of big guys who swear by metformin at 2gm a day will dramatically improve your muscle size and the overall look to your physique. I've seen it first hand in quite a few ppl. Now given these are much larger then average guys to begin with, adding metformin to there cycle with anabolics and gh, once they hit that 1.5-2 dose daily it starts giving you that full round pumped up all the time look and once metformin was stopped that look went away.

I know there's a million studies or whatever but I gotta take what I've seen in multiple ppls results over any of these studies. The ppl who avoid metformin specifically for fear of inhibiting muscle growth are doing themselves a huge injustice. If your already on a cycle with gh include and you can afford that dose of metformin it's only going to help.

If I could afford the gh and metformin at that dose I wouldn't hesitate to add it

There’s a lot of big guys saying a whole lot of things. Anecdotal doesn’t really mean much when we have actual placebo controlled data on this. Also, guys saying this that and the other, what are they really comparing it to? Do they know what their results would have been without it? No, they would not because they are not running the same routine at the same starting point even if they do try to do a AB comparison. So the best data we have is the placebo controlled data. Think about what these guys are saying when they say that it’s fine, they are basing it on the fact that they did make some gains. Nobody is arguing you can gain using it, the issue is they most certainly left gains on the table if they took it around their workout. You’re also talking about their subjective look, the data with placebo control looked at muscle mass accrual. It’s quite possible they have better insulin sensitivity but when you’re trying to maximize muscle gain, they look doesn’t mean much, it’s how much muscle you have gained.

N=1 anecdote is pretty meaningless, if this wasn’t the case, Tony Huge and his crew would be the cream of the crop since they go entirely off of anecdote and feels. Just saying.

 

[Smont]

There’s a lot of big guys saying a whole lot of things. Anecdotal doesn’t really mean much when we have actual placebo controlled data on this. Also, guys saying this that and the other, what are they really comparing it to? Do they know what their results would have been without it? No, they would not because they are not running the same routine at the same starting point even if they do try to do a AB comparison. So the best data we have is the placebo controlled data. Think about what these guys are saying when they say that it’s fine, they are basing it on the fact that they did make some gains. Nobody is arguing you can gain using it, the issue is they most certainly left gains on the table if they took it around their workout.

N=1 anecdote is pretty meaningless, if this wasn’t the case, Tony Huge and his crew would be the cream of the crop since they go entirely off of anecdote and feels. Just saying.

Guy is on product whatever for 3 months, he adds metformin. I watch his physique change over the next 4 weeks and stay that way till he discontinued metformin and I visually can look at him and see that fullness and a little size dissapear. I've seen it in more then one of my friends firsthand with my own eyes.

That Trump's any study in my book.

Pretty simple, ( you )run a cycle with some test and gh, add metformin and see what happens.

No study on earth will be able to tell you if your results are wrong

 

[Smont]

I'm not looking for a argument, what I'm saying is if you have the cash and gilave it a try, you would write off all those studies in a few weeks

 

[kissdadookie]

Guy is on product whatever for 3 months, he adds metformin. I watch his physique change over the next 4 weeks and stay that way till he discontinued metformin and I visually can look at him and see that fullness and a little size dissapear. I've seen it in more then one of my friends firsthand with my own eyes.

That Trump's any study in my book.

Pretty simple, ( you )run a cycle with some test and gh, add metformin and see what happens.

No study on earth will be able to tell you if your results are wrong

You’re gauging look = muscle mass gain. It’s very likely it gives him better insulin sensitivity, but I’m talking about gaining lean mass and if you are leaving potential muscle mass on the table.