Rethinking on Berberine?

[Danes]

What about dihydroberberine would it be safer?

I think it would be even worse since its more potent

 

[K21]

Hi danes would 500mg a day of berberine be safe, any new info about berberine effect on dna/cancer in humans?

 

[K21]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21300790/ could milk thistle protect dna

 

[Rostam]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21300790/ could milk thistle protect dna

The problem with combining berberine and milk thistle is that milk thistle increase berberine absorption. So you’ll have a higher berberine concentration in the system.

 

[Rostam]

I think it would be even worse since its more potent

This.

For me it’s an enhanced form of berberine.

 

[K21]

The problem with combining berberine and milk thistle is that milk thistle increase berberine absorption. So you’ll have a higher berberine concentration in the system.

I thought it would have the opposite effect clearing things out of the liver like with orals?

 

[K21]

heres the one from ergo log the mice looked healthy and lived long I want that to be me lol, has some good info at the bottom page under discussion.

 

[K21]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acel.13060

 

[K21]

This study revealed that severe DNA damage in accelerated or natural aging models was ameliorated by BBR both in vitro and in vivo. In fact, BBR down-regulated the expression of p16, which promoted the formation of the cyclinD1-CDK4 complex. It is noteworthy that the mechanism by which BBR modulates p16 is still unknown. Further study needs to be carried out to make it clear. This was followed by phosphorylation of RB into pRB by the cyclinD1-CDK4 complex. As a result, pRB induced the release of E2F1 which promoted the synthesis of DNA and allowed cell-cycle progression. Therefore, BBR ameliorates cellular senescence by promoting cellular transition from G1 to S phase during early mitosis of the cell cycle.

 

[K21]

One possible concern about BBR would be if it increases the risk of cancer by promoting cell proliferation. Though we showed BBR promotes cell proliferation in WI38, it is reported previously BBR treatment promotes cell-cycle arrest and death in human cancer cell lines, coupled to an increased expression of apoptotic factors (Sefidabi et al., 2017). BBR was reported to leading to apoptosis in around 20 types of cancers through various mechanisms. Thus, BBR is evident to rejuvenate aging cells and inhibit cancer cells at the same time.

 

[Rostam]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acel.13060

There is no doubt there are many benefits from berberine. But these studies on DNA damage and tumorigenesis kind of hold me back from using it now.

 

[Rostam]

I thought it would have the opposite effect clearing things out of the liver like with orals?

No. I can’t remember the exact mechanism but it actually enhances berberine absorption.

 

[K21]

There is no doubt there are many benefits from berberine. But these studies on DNA damage and tumorigenesis kind of hold me back from using it now.

Frontiers | Effects of Berberine and Its Derivatives on Cancer: A Systems Pharmacology Review

Numerous studies have shown that berberine and its derivatives demonstrate important anti-tumor effects. However, the specific underlying mechanism remains u...

www.frontiersin.org

These findings indicate that berberine derivatives, like berberine, have anti-tumor effects

 

[K21]

Frontiers | Natural Compounds That Target DNA Repair Pathways and Their Therapeutic Potential to Counteract Cancer Cells

Resistance to current cancer treatments is an important problem that arises through various mechanisms, but one that stands out involves an overexpression of...

www.frontiersin.org

Berberine has been shown to induce oxidative DNA damage and alter RAD51 expression in ovarian cancer cells, breast cancer cells, and osteosarcoma cells, but not in normal cells, thereby causing increased DNA damage and longer, with abundant γH2AX, ATM, and p53 foci (80–82).

 

[Rostam]

@K21, Im aware of these and in fact berberine has antitumoral and many other benefits, however it is also involved in DNA damage in healthy cells. I think I posed few of the related studies above.

Mechanism study of goldenseal-associated DNA damage

Goldenseal has been used for the treatment of a wide variety of ailments including gastrointestinal disturbances, urinary tract disorders, and inflammation. The five major alkaloid constituents in goldenseal are berberine, palmatine, hydrastine, hydrastinine, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

concentration of berberine can reach to 0.39 mg/l (1.2 μM) after a single oral dose of 300 mg berberine (Ye et al., 2009) and 0.3 mg/l (0.9 μM) after multi-dose oral administration of 1200–2000 mg berberine per day for eight weeks (Zeng et al., 2003). In our studies, toxic effect of berberine became apparent at 3.125 μM (Fig. 2), which is close to the plasma concentration detected in human blood samples. Thus, the use of berberine at the suggested clinically relevant levels may carry a risk of DNA damage.

It is worth mentioning that DNA damage was also observed with commercial goldenseal products and the extent of DNA damage was positively correlated with the berberine content.

Berberine appeared to be the most potent DNA damage inducer.
DNA damage was directly associated with the inhibitory effect of Topo II.
The extent of DNA damage was positively correlated to the berberine content in goldenseal products.

 

[Kronic]

ya I quit doin berbs

 

[K21]

Does anyone have any new info on weather berberine is safe to take?

 

[K21]

whats wrong with a single 300mg dose if its nearly 3 times lower than the toxic level?

 

[rodefeeh]

in for any more discussion on this

 

[K21]

what if there are other things in golden seal thats synergistic with the berberine that causes the dna damage, where they injecting them with golden seal or feeding them it? how much golden seal did they give them, and if they gave the rats golden seal for 2 years thats a long time, just guessing like a 20 year old using until hes 70 with out a break, and do lab rats not just develop liver tumers anyway near the end of their life span. look what ecdysterone does to rats but not humans, what diet did the lab rats have was it healthy or some processed stuff and did they get exercise,

 

[DieselNY]

I take it daily and have for ages. No worries here.

 

[Rostam]

whats wrong with a single 300mg dose if its nearly 3 times lower than the toxic level?

We don’t know how toxic it is or not. What they showed in different studies is that a sing 300mg dose bring the concentration in the blood at or around where toxic effect have been seen.

 

[Rostam]

what if there are other things in golden seal thats synergistic with the berberine that causes the dna damage, where they injecting them with golden seal or feeding them it? how much golden seal did they give them, and if they gave the rats golden seal for 2 years thats a long time, just guessing like a 20 year old using until hes 70 with out a break, and do lab rats not just develop liver tumers anyway near the end of their life span. look what ecdysterone does to rats but not humans, what diet did the lab rats have was it healthy or some processed stuff and did they get exercise,

Here is a European committee evaluation of berberine for human consumption:

https://www.anses.fr/en/system/files/NUT2018SA0095EN.pdf

 

[K21]

We don’t know how toxic it is or not. What they showed in different studies is that a sing 300mg dose bring the concentration in the blood at or around where toxic effect have been seen.

there is a study that supplementing with milk thistle when using berberine negated the negative effects of berberine on dna,

 

[Rostam]

there is a study that supplementing with milk thistle when using berberine negated the negative effects of berberine on dna,

We discussed this before here, Milk thistle increase absorption of Berberine, so or it elevate it’s concentration in the blood and potentially it’s toxic effect.

 

[K21]

We discussed this before here, Milk thistle increase absorption of Berberine, so or it elevate it’s concentration in the blood and potentially it’s toxic effect.

but if it was able to reduce the toxic effect even though it apparently increases absorption must mean something?

 

[mechka_grizli]

but if it was able to reduce the toxic effect even though it apparently increases absorption must mean something?

It seems like you’re looking for some type of validation to use it. Multiple studies have been posted for and against it, so by now you should be able to form your own opinion and make a decision to use it or not. If you trust the studies then take it. If you’re concerned about the negative effects then there are plenty of ingredients that can be used instead

 

[Kronic]

how would the DNA damage present itself in a person? accelerated aging? cancer?

 

[rodefeeh]

how would the DNA damage present itself in a person? accelerated aging? cancer?

A quick google says both - accelerated aging and possibly yes the "c" word, cancer

 

[rodefeeh]

I guess I'll finish the berberine containing supplements I have, then think about going on a lower carb diet. I'm probably done building muscle anyways at 40 Don't wanna fck with the "c" word.

 

[Kronic]

I guess I'll finish the berberine containing supplements I have, then think about going on a lower carb diet. I'm probably done building muscle anyways at 40 Don't wanna fck with the "c" word.

you could also try the f word fasting

 

[Rostam]

how would the DNA damage present itself in a person? accelerated aging? cancer?

I think I’ve seen studies in mice where this DNA damage was linked to cancer. But it’s not really a proof that it does the same or not in human.