Protein blends - multi time release

alphanik

alphanik

New member
Just a question regarding proteins containing multiple protein types,eg myofusion.

Does mixing fast releasing whey,eg hydrosolates and slow digesting such as casein actually provide a fast release followed by a slow release of aminos,or would it more or less mix together to create a medium speed of release?

There have been numerous studies/articles that dictate that both whey and casein together post workout is more efficient than just whey. Should they be consumed seperately in order to achieve a fast release followed by a slow release?
 
Don't worry about speed of release. The bottom line is that blends are superior for muscle protein synthesis (muscle growth). Look into PES select, which is on sale at NP right now, and contains arguably the two best protein sources out there: milk protein isolate and Whey protein concentrate 80%. It's a 50/50 blend of whey/casein
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Don't worry about speed of release. The bottom line is that blends are superior for muscle protein synthesis (muscle growth). Look into PES select, which is on sale at NP right now, and contains arguably the two best protein sources out there: milk protein isolate and Whey protein concentrate 80%. It's a 50/50 blend of whey/casein
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^ this, high quality, no creamers or fillers. It also doesn't hurt that it tastes incredible!
 
As the PES reps said, don't sweat the small details. I will say I've always preferred blends as well, from a satiety standpoint also.

XF UP 2.0 is another great choice for a blend.
 
I am relatively new here (from a posting perspective) and know that Mr. Cooper has added quite a bit to this site and is far from being any kind of shill - he obviously believes in PES Select and I think it looks like an awesome product. However, I think the original question is a great question and why wouldn't you worry about speeds of absorption?

From what I've seen, there are a couple of different viewpoint on this. Either protein = protein, or different types of protein are "superior". Different companies have promoted all kinds of different things - Whey Isolate is best, MPI is best, a mix is best - and the reasons seem to revolve around a few factors:

1. BCAA Content
2. Glutamine content (which I think most of us don't place a premium on anymore)
3. Absorption quality (i.e. - if I take 25 grams of protein, how much is absorbed?)
4. Absorption speed (Whey being "fast" and MPI/Casein being slower)

The theory that has prevailed is that whey is best post-workout because you need to shuttle those BCAA's into the blood as quickly as possible and during the window of opportunity after each workout.

Now, I understand that hitting your macros and your long term nitrogen balance probably plays a big role in your success (don't try to make up with poor diet with one shake), and I'm not interested in minutia and nutrient timing to an insane degree, but I ONLY buy protein powder for a post workout shake. I get everything else from foods, and I typically eat a meal within 2 hours after my shake.

I totally believe that the combo proteins are superior for long-term nitrogen balance, but what about someone who is looking ONLY for a post-workout shake? I think the OP has a question that is on a lot of peoples' minds but there is no solid answer that I've seen as I lurk on these board. Of course, hit your macros and focus on the bigger things, but for me - this is a large part of my decision when buying this type of product. The product itself isn't the largest part of my diet, but the speed factor in some cases may be the bigger issue, in my mind, for a product that is used in a relatively minor role?

Given what I've seen from Coop, I am inclined enough to believe his thoughts that I have recently bought a mixed protein for my post-workout shake (I went with Trutein, Select is still a bit out of my budget at the moment) - so I am open, but I still like to question things. And I feel like Coop probably has the answer, but I haven't seen it or it is just too boring for him to spell out for some of us....

I hope that came out right, it was intended as more of a compliment than an insult...not sure if I worded it correctly...
 
HIT4ME said:
I am relatively new here (from a posting perspective) and know that Mr. Cooper has added quite a bit to this site and is far from being any kind of shill - he obviously believes in PES Select and I think it looks like an awesome product. However, I think the original question is a great question and why wouldn't you worry about speeds of absorption?

From what I've seen, there are a couple of different viewpoint on this. Either protein = protein, or different types of protein are "superior". Different companies have promoted all kinds of different things - Whey Isolate is best, MPI is best, a mix is best - and the reasons seem to revolve around a few factors:

1. BCAA Content
2. Glutamine content (which I think most of us don't place a premium on anymore)
3. Absorption quality (i.e. - if I take 25 grams of protein, how much is absorbed?)
4. Absorption speed (Whey being "fast" and MPI/Casein being slower)

The theory that has prevailed is that whey is best post-workout because you need to shuttle those BCAA's into the blood as quickly as possible and during the window of opportunity after each workout.

Now, I understand that hitting your macros and your long term nitrogen balance probably plays a big role in your success (don't try to make up with poor diet with one shake), and I'm not interested in minutia and nutrient timing to an insane degree, but I ONLY buy protein powder for a post workout shake. I get everything else from foods, and I typically eat a meal within 2 hours after my shake.

I totally believe that the combo proteins are superior for long-term nitrogen balance, but what about someone who is looking ONLY for a post-workout shake? I think the OP has a question that is on a lot of peoples' minds but there is no solid answer that I've seen as I lurk on these board. Of course, hit your macros and focus on the bigger things, but for me - this is a large part of my decision when buying this type of product. The product itself isn't the largest part of my diet, but the speed factor in some cases may be the bigger issue, in my mind, for a product that is used in a relatively minor role?

Given what I've seen from Coop, I am inclined enough to believe his thoughts that I have recently bought a mixed protein for my post-workout shake (I went with Trutein, Select is still a bit out of my budget at the moment) - so I am open, but I still like to question things. And I feel like Coop probably has the answer, but I haven't seen it or it is just too boring for him to spell out for some of us....

I hope that came out right, it was intended as more of a compliment than an insult...not sure if I worded it correctly...
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You have pertinent questions. :)

A lot of them are answered in the Select write up if you want to read the references for comparisons between different protein sources.

http://pescience.com/select-protein.html
 
Thanks BDCC - I have begun looking into some of the abstracts for the references, but I can't view full articles on most of them.

What I am gleaning from the abstract, actually suggests this is a little more complex. It appears that mixing the proteins actually does reduce the level of BCAA in the blood stream for a short period after ingestion, but does increase the effects of the protein over longer periods of time, which is along the lines of what everyone would have expected, I presume?

Another study also appears to indicate that the difference between MPI/Whey and just whey is somewhat negligible. I believe these two studies were both by Reidy and are #7 and 8 in your reference list.

This being the case, I would assume that there is no simple answer. Yes, casein does slow the absorption of whey somewhat but the whey still seems to absorb faster and the casein slower, as two separate protein sources to some degree, and not as a medium-speed mixture.

If that is the case, the correct answer may be, in my mind, to take a whey protein drink immediately or during exercise and follow up with a blend 30-60 minutes later - but now we are getting into insane micro-management and nutrient timing issues.

I would guess the blend is really the better way to go for most of the purposes, and if someone is also using an intra-workout BCAA product, then the benefit of whey alone is almost wiped out...

How far off am I?
 
Having done the writeup myself, I can say that it's a very complicated issue. The authors find that a blend of whey + casein > either alone for reasons independent of absorption speed. It's still not fully understood, but what is understood is that consuming a blend is invariably the best option in any scenario except for during a workout (in which EAA/peptopro is superior). There is even data showing a blend is superior to whey postworkout, when "speed" is supposedly so important. I have a more complete version of the writeup with tons of citations if you'd like to PM me your email address.

Also, in terms of your list of factors that matter:

1. BCAA Content
2. Glutamine content (which I think most of us don't place a premium on anymore)
3. Absorption quality (i.e. - if I take 25 grams of protein, how much is absorbed?)
4. Absorption speed (Whey being "fast" and MPI/Casein being slower)

Let's alter it to:

1. Leucine content
2. Growth factors and immunoglobulins (very important for the health benefits of protein powder)
3. Net nitrogen retention (ratio of anabolism to catabolism of proteins in the body...highest in a blend)

Speed will in part determine net nitrogen retention, and absorption is generally a non-issue unless ingesting pure casein (which becomes mechanically unfavorable at the GI mucosa due to the agglutination known as paracasein).

I will re-iterate that for body composition, a blend is your best bet under all circumstances. For performance, hydrolyzed protein is best. For lactose intolerance, WPI is best. For growth factors and immunoglobulins, WPC is best. And for body composition, if I had to pick just one, MPI is best.
 
aaronuconn said:
As the PES reps said, don't sweat the small details. I will say I've always preferred blends as well, from a satiety standpoint also.

XF UP 2.0 is another great choice for a blend.
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Aaron, aside from Xtreme Formulations and PES, what other companies make blends?

Thanks,
Monte
 
Monte Brogan said:
Aaron, aside from Xtreme Formulations and PES, what other companies make blends?

Thanks,
Monte
Click to expand...

almost every company makes a blend...even 100% whey products are usually a blend of isolates and concentrates, dymatize elite gourmet and fusion 7 come to mind as two "blend" products i've tried

however i find that i'd prefer a straight isolate protein post workout like isotean and isolyze
 
Young Gotti said:
almost every company makes a blend...even 100% whey products are usually a blend of isolates and concentrates, dymatize elite gourmet and fusion 7 come to mind as two "blend" products i've tried

however i find that i'd prefer a straight isolate protein post workout like isotean and isolyze
Click to expand...

He meant an actual blend, not a blend of one type (e.g. Whey).
 
Young Gotti said:
almost every company makes a blend...even 100% whey products are usually a blend of isolates and concentrates, dymatize elite gourmet and fusion 7 come to mind as two "blend" products i've tried

however i find that i'd prefer a straight isolate protein post workout like isotean and isolyze
Click to expand...

Thanks very much. The Dymatize Elite Fusion 7 looks interesting. 23g protein per serving versus only 18g for XF. I think PES has 24g.
 
Monte Brogan said:
Thanks very much. The Dymatize Elite Fusion 7 looks interesting. 23g protein per serving versus only 18g for XF. I think PES has 24g.
Click to expand...

Here's a word of advice: if a blend lists WPC first, you can bet that virtually the whole blend is WPC.

Second word of advice: judge the protein content and calories. If you dose PES select at the same caloric dose of XF, you wind up with over 40g of protein. Similar rules apply to the dymatize blend
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Here's a word of advice: if a blend lists WPC first, you can bet that virtually the whole blend is WPC.

Second word of advice: judge the protein content and calories. If you dose PES select at the same caloric dose of XF, you wind up with over 40g of protein. Similar rules apply to the dymatize blend
Click to expand...

Thanks, Cooper. Very informative. Like many people, I've been using 100% whey for years. Always thought it was the superior protein. So this has been a learning process.

Monte
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Having done the writeup myself, I can say that it's a very complicated issue. The authors find that a blend of whey + casein > either alone for reasons independent of absorption speed. It's still not fully understood, but what is understood is that consuming a blend is invariably the best option in any scenario except for during a workout (in which EAA/peptopro is superior). There is even data showing a blend is superior to whey postworkout, when "speed" is supposedly so important. I have a more complete version of the writeup with tons of citations if you'd like to PM me your email address.

Also, in terms of your list of factors that matter:

1. BCAA Content
2. Glutamine content (which I think most of us don't place a premium on anymore)
3. Absorption quality (i.e. - if I take 25 grams of protein, how much is absorbed?)
4. Absorption speed (Whey being "fast" and MPI/Casein being slower)

Let's alter it to:

1. Leucine content
2. Growth factors and immunoglobulins (very important for the health benefits of protein powder)
3. Net nitrogen retention (ratio of anabolism to catabolism of proteins in the body...highest in a blend)

Speed will in part determine net nitrogen retention, and absorption is generally a non-issue unless ingesting pure casein (which becomes mechanically unfavorable at the GI mucosa due to the agglutination known as paracasein).

I will re-iterate that for body composition, a blend is your best bet under all circumstances. For performance, hydrolyzed protein is best. For lactose intolerance, WPI is best. For growth factors and immunoglobulins, WPC is best. And for body composition, if I had to pick just one, MPI is best.
Click to expand...

Coop, I am beginning to understand your view point on this, at least partially. When I was a teenager, I was in shape and drank milk by the gallon every day, along with whey protein. After a 10 year layoff and getting fat and weak, I returned to lifting about 1 year ago and have been relying more on whey and not drinking as much milk because I've been limiting calories and prefer to eat calories over drinking them. Looking back, my experience with milk protein mixed with weigh had a big difference on body composition and I've often wondered if there was something else going on when I was consuming such large quantities of milk.

I believe that I saw in another thread you mentioned that whey also increases insulin response dramatically, and that the blend of MPI will actually reduce this response...I find that very interesting.

On a side note - my list wasn't a list of factors that mattered, as much as it was a list of factors that marketing departments would have us believe make one protein better than another for a certain instance.

I will send a PM, I'm very interested in this, as I think it is basic but essential to understand....
 
Monte Brogan said:
Aaron, thanks. Any thoughts on the new OxyElite protein?
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Hey Monte. If you search the forums, you'll find a lot of positive feedback on OxyELITE Protein. It's a high quality blend (MPI, WPC 80%, Micellar Casein) without fillers and the taste is outstanding (IMO). You can check out some reviews at the link below.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/product-review/231293-oxyelite-protein-2lb.html


The current sale price at NP is the lowest that I've seen it available for as well.
 
OxyElite would be my alternate choice to Select, just standard flavours but their chocolate is fantastic
 
breezy11 said:
Hey Monte. If you search the forums, you'll find a lot of positive feedback on OxyELITE Protein. It's a high quality blend (MPI, WPC 80%, Micellar Casein) without fillers and the taste is outstanding (IMO). You can check out some reviews at the link below.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/product-review/231293-oxyelite-protein-2lb.html


The current sale price at NP is the lowest that I've seen it available for as well.
Click to expand...

Breezy, thanks very much. Wow, that is some sale at NP. Price is too good to pass up - thanks for the suggestion.

Monte
 
Driven2lift said:
OxyElite would be my alternate choice to Select, just standard flavours but their chocolate is fantastic
Click to expand...

More delicious flavors coming soon my friend. :thumbsup:


Monte Brogan said:
Breezy, thanks very much. Wow, that is some sale at NP. Price is too good to pass up - thanks for the suggestion.

Monte
Click to expand...

No problem, Monte. Let me know what you think.
 
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