Phosphatidic acid + Mtor?

[bell1986]

I recently got sent a bottle of phosphatidic acid. It was a freebie so I thought I would just throw it in.

750mg split over 3 doses a day.

I've read into it but theirs one thing I don't understand. Especially since it isn't too cheap of a product. (Well in the UK here it isn't)

It's mode of action is to increase mtor? Why would this product be superior to say something like HMB? I got a 6 month supply of HMB for cheaper than a month's supply of phosphatidic acid. Don't they both just increase mtor + muscle protein synthesis?

I don't doubt the product has a use but for it's cost it just seems like their are cheaper options with the same mechanism.

Maybe I'm missing something but I know the basics of muscle building and how leucine etc is needed to raise muscle protein synthesis. Ie more protein = more spikes = more muscle building opportunities.

Anyone used phosphatidic acid and seen benefits more than say hmb or even just a whey protein?

 

[sns8778]

I like HMB alright, but legitimate Mediator 50P is a whole different world in terms of results.

First thing though is that there is a lot of deceptive labeling on Phosphatidic Acid products. You want to be using 750 mg. per day of actual Phosphatidic Acid, but the material is different %'s of actives. If using the Mediator 50P, which is the patented researched version, then it is 50% actual Phosphatidic Acid. That means that you need 1,500 mg. per day of total material to provide you with 750 mg. per day of active ingredient.

If you're saying that you can buy a 6 month supply of HMB for less than a 1 month supply of Phosphatidic Acid, if you're not exaggerating, then I would really be concerned about the quality of the HMB because based off legitimate raw material costs, that's not possible. Yes, HMB is cheaper than Phosphatidic Acid, but that not to that degree.

HMB is an alright ingredient, but its one that works very differently for different people. Some people can tell a difference, some people can't. I used to like it for maintaining muscle on a cut, but now days I think there's better ingredients. But I never got even a fraction of the strength gains from HMB that I get from Phosphatidic Acid.

Here is a link to a thread that in the initial post, it talks about the real world studies on Mediator Phosphatidic Acid and then there's many pages of feedback on the product itself:

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT - Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder - Available Now - AnabolicMinds.com

Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder Ultra-Potent mTOR Activator 1,500 Mg. Mediator® Per Serving Look Better. Feel Better. Perform Better. 1,500 Mg. Mediator® 50 Mg. Apigenin (as ApiPure™) 50 Mg. Senactiv® 50 Mg. AstraGin® 5 Mg. Bioperine® Mediator® Phosphatidic Acid (PA) has been shown to...

anabolicminds.com

 

[Resolve10]

I was typing something up, but above covered some of my points better. I'd just be cautious making assessment on your PA unless you can be sure it is of good quality. Lots of shady people out there selling PA in ways that makes it seem like it is full dose, but isn't. Is it Mediator? I wouldn't buy any if it wasn't Mediator and I'd also make sure if someone is claiming it is Mediator it actually contains that.

That all said, I think you should spend some time reading the studies or the write up because I think you are drastically over simplifying how these processes work.

I think if you spent more time reading the studies or write up above you might be able to come back with a more specific question, but these processes aren't so simple as just oh it boosts MPS or mTOR so we should only look at one thing to do this. Otherwise we wouldn't continue to look into anything for further understanding of the processes or things that work together for greater results.


Took the chance to get you started:

The effects of phosphatidic acid supplementation on strength, body composition, muscular endurance, power, agility, and vertical jump in resistance trained men

Phosphatidic acid (PA) is a lipid messenger that has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis via signaling stimulation of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). MaxxTOR® (MT) is a supplement that contains PA as the main active ingredient ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The results of these studies suggest that both mechanical stimuli and the exogenous addition of PA can stimulate mTOR signaling through different pathways that collectively may contribute to a larger effect of mTOR signaling.

 

[sns8778]

I was typing something up, but above covered some of my points better. I'd just be cautious making assessment on your PA unless you can be sure it is of good quality. Lots of shady people out there selling PA in ways that makes it seem like it is full dose, but isn't. Is it Mediator? I wouldn't buy any if it wasn't Mediator and I'd also make sure if someone is claiming it is Mediator it actually contains that.

That all said, I think you should spend some time reading the studies or the write up because I think you are drastically over simplifying how these processes work.

I think if you spent more time reading the studies or write up above you might be able to come back with a more specific question, but these processes aren't so simple as just oh it boosts MPS or mTOR so we should only look at one thing to do this. Otherwise we wouldn't continue to look into anything for further understanding of the processes or things that work together for greater results.


Took the chance to get you started:

The effects of phosphatidic acid supplementation on strength, body composition, muscular endurance, power, agility, and vertical jump in resistance trained men

Phosphatidic acid (PA) is a lipid messenger that has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis via signaling stimulation of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). MaxxTOR® (MT) is a supplement that contains PA as the main active ingredient ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Great points. I absolutely agree and especially with your statement:
but these processes aren't so simple as just oh it boosts MPS or mTOR so we should only look at one thing to do this. Otherwise we wouldn't continue to look into anything for further understanding of the processes or things that work together for greater results.

I think a lot of people don't realize that there's a lot more technical levels and pathways involved than just saying simply 'increases mTOR' - from a company or an ingredient perspective, a lot of times it stops there bc the average person doesn't even know what that means, so the deeper one goes, the more confusing it gets to the average person.

But then I think the simplicity confuses people that do have a basic understanding bc they don't realize how much more involved it is.

 

[djbombsquad]

Both Mediator 50P (Phosphatidic Acid) and HMB (β-Hydroxy β-Methylbutyrate) influence the mTOR pathway, which is crucial for muscle growth and protein synthesis. However, they do so through different mechanisms and have distinct primary actions. Here's a detailed comparison highlighting their differences despite both triggering mTOR:

### Mediator 50P (Phosphatidic Acid)
1. Mechanism of Action:
- Direct mTOR Activation: Phosphatidic Acid directly stimulates the mTOR pathway. This activation primarily occurs in response to mechanical stress, such as weightlifting, where PA levels increase in muscle cells, leading to enhanced muscle protein synthesis.
- Primary Role: It acts as a lipid signaling molecule, playing a direct role in the intracellular signaling pathways that regulate muscle growth.

2. Primary Benefits:
- Muscle Protein Synthesis: By directly activating mTOR, PA significantly boosts muscle protein synthesis, promoting muscle growth and hypertrophy.
- Muscle Mass and Strength: Regular supplementation, especially in conjunction with resistance training, can lead to increased muscle mass and strength.

3. Usage Context:
- Athletic Performance: Ideal for athletes and bodybuilders looking to maximize muscle hypertrophy and strength gains through enhanced anabolic signaling.

### HMB (β-Hydroxy β-Methylbutyrate)
1. Mechanism of Action:
- Indirect mTOR Activation: HMB indirectly stimulates mTOR by increasing leucine levels, which in turn activates the mTOR pathway. HMB is also known for its ability to inhibit the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway, reducing muscle protein breakdown.
- Dual Role: HMB not only promotes muscle protein synthesis but also has strong anti-catabolic properties, preventing muscle degradation.

2. Primary Benefits:
- Muscle Preservation: Particularly effective at preserving muscle mass during periods of caloric deficit or intense training, making it valuable during cutting phases.
- Recovery and Reduced Muscle Damage: Helps reduce muscle damage and soreness post-exercise, facilitating faster recovery.

3. Usage Context:
- Muscle Maintenance and Recovery: Suitable for athletes and individuals looking to maintain muscle mass while losing fat, improve recovery times, and reduce muscle breakdown.

### Summary of Differences

1. Direct vs. Indirect mTOR Activation:
- Mediator 50P (Phosphatidic Acid): Directly activates the mTOR pathway through lipid signaling.
- HMB: Indirectly activates mTOR by increasing leucine levels and reducing muscle protein breakdown.

2. Primary Actions:
- Mediator 50P: Focuses primarily on enhancing muscle protein synthesis and promoting muscle growth.
- HMB: Balances between promoting muscle protein synthesis and preventing muscle protein breakdown, with a strong emphasis on muscle preservation and recovery.

3. Ideal Use Cases:
- Mediator 50P: Best for those aiming for significant muscle hypertrophy and strength gains, especially when combined with resistance training.
- HMB: Ideal for those looking to preserve muscle during weight loss, enhance recovery, and reduce muscle damage from intense exercise.

### Conclusion
While both Mediator 50P and HMB influence the mTOR pathway, they do so through different mechanisms and have unique primary actions and benefits. Mediator 50P is more focused on stimulating muscle growth through direct mTOR activation, whereas HMB provides a dual benefit of promoting muscle growth and preventing muscle breakdown. Choosing between them depends on your specific fitness goals and the context in which you plan to use the supplement. For comprehensive muscle growth and maintenance, some athletes might find combining both supplements beneficial.

 

[bell1986]

I like HMB alright, but legitimate Mediator 50P is a whole different world in terms of results.

First thing though is that there is a lot of deceptive labeling on Phosphatidic Acid products. You want to be using 750 mg. per day of actual Phosphatidic Acid, but the material is different %'s of actives. If using the Mediator 50P, which is the patented researched version, then it is 50% actual Phosphatidic Acid. That means that you need 1,500 mg. per day of total material to provide you with 750 mg. per day of active ingredient.

If you're saying that you can buy a 6 month supply of HMB for less than a 1 month supply of Phosphatidic Acid, if you're not exaggerating, then I would really be concerned about the quality of the HMB because based off legitimate raw material costs, that's not possible. Yes, HMB is cheaper than Phosphatidic Acid, but that not to that degree.

HMB is an alright ingredient, but its one that works very differently for different people. Some people can tell a difference, some people can't. I used to like it for maintaining muscle on a cut, but now days I think there's better ingredients. But I never got even a fraction of the strength gains from HMB that I get from Phosphatidic Acid.

Here is a link to a thread that in the initial post, it talks about the real world studies on Mediator Phosphatidic Acid and then there's many pages of feedback on the product itself:

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT - Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder - Available Now - AnabolicMinds.com

Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder Ultra-Potent mTOR Activator 1,500 Mg. Mediator® Per Serving Look Better. Feel Better. Perform Better. 1,500 Mg. Mediator® 50 Mg. Apigenin (as ApiPure™) 50 Mg. Senactiv® 50 Mg. AstraGin® 5 Mg. Bioperine® Mediator® Phosphatidic Acid (PA) has been shown to...

anabolicminds.com

Hey. Thanks for all the info.

The reason I ask is. I've read alot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed. I don't doubt the product works. Also. Some people don't know how to eat to grow also so it's not always the supplements fault.

The company that sent me this is a reputable company. I've used them for 10 years and can honestly say that I haven't had a bad product. This is for me though. I can't comment on others. It was also a freebie so I thought why not just run it for the month and see if it adds anything. I'm currently in a bulk anyway so any assistance is a bonus.

It's expensive here in the UK for the mediator product £65/$84 for a month's supply and I'm assuming that it needs to be run for 2+ months? That adds up. I also am on trt and add in the odd addition ie primo or epistane. I just always swayed away from natural products as I'm assuming they can't come close to the anabolic effect of these products? I may be wrong but.

I thought no harm to run it as it would just sit in my cupboard and rot if not.

I actually really rate HMB. I have read alot into it and it's machanism. Alot of people seem to slate it because it doesn't add slabs of muscle. If your in a calorie deficit though then I would say it's one of the best for maintaining your mass. I'm assuming that phosphatidic acid could also maintain mass aswell in a deficit?

HMB is very cheap here in the UK. I'm very certain it's great quality also. I've got a 500g bag sitting. I've been sent it a couple times as gifts during orders also. Mines is HMB-FA

Is the mediator a good seller for yourself's? I was just thinking of the overall cost. What can you realistically add while running this say for 2 months? Could it genuinely add some extra mass? While in a bulk.

I also thought the study was done using 750mg phosphatidic acid? The one I just read their was using 750mg anyway. I never knew it had a patent though and different qualitys

Thanks for your input.

 

[sns8778]

Hey. Thanks for all the info.

The reason I ask is. I've read alot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed. I don't doubt the product works. Also. Some people don't know how to eat to grow also so it's not always the supplements fault.

The company that sent me this is a reputable company. I've used them for 10 years and can honestly say that I haven't had a bad product. This is for me though. I can't comment on others. It was also a freebie so I thought why not just run it for the month and see if it adds anything. I'm currently in a bulk anyway so any assistance is a bonus.

It's expensive here in the UK for the mediator product £65/$84 for a month's supply and I'm assuming that it needs to be run for 2+ months? That adds up. I also am on trt and add in the odd addition ie primo or epistane. I just always swayed away from natural products as I'm assuming they can't come close to the anabolic effect of these products? I may be wrong but.

I thought no harm to run it as it would just sit in my cupboard and rot if not.

I actually really rate HMB. I have read alot into it and it's machanism. Alot of people seem to slate it because it doesn't add slabs of muscle. If your in a calorie deficit though then I would say it's one of the best for maintaining your mass. I'm assuming that phosphatidic acid could also maintain mass aswell in a deficit?

HMB is very cheap here in the UK. I'm very certain it's great quality also. I've got a 500g bag sitting. I've been sent it a couple times as gifts during orders also. Mines is HMB-FA

Is the mediator a good seller for yourself's? I was just thinking of the overall cost. What can you realistically add while running this say for 2 months? Could it genuinely add some extra mass? While in a bulk.

I also thought the study was done using 750mg phosphatidic acid? The one I just read their was using 750mg anyway. I never knew it had a patent though and different qualitys

Thanks for your input.

I'm going to answer your questions by putting them in bold and italics and then will answer them individually below.

I've read a lot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed.

That's a pretty bold generalized statement being that there are tons of positive reviews on this forum alone on it.

It's important to distinguish when you say something like that, are you reading up on actual Mediator Phosphatidic Acid?
Or are you reading people absurdly mega dosing lecithin hoping to get enough Phosphatidic Acid?
Or are you reading people who tried a brand violating the patent and using who knows what actual % generic material?

See, its not just the name Mediator that makes it special. It's the production process.

Chemi Nutra, the patent holder, is a subsidiary of an Italian drug manufacturer, meaning that their raw materials are pharmaceutical standard, but even more importantly - it means they have the refined production capability to make the material.

Here's a link to a thread that has a lot of feedback on Phosphatidic Acid:

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT - Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder - Available Now - AnabolicMinds.com

Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder Ultra-Potent mTOR Activator 1,500 Mg. Mediator® Per Serving Look Better. Feel Better. Perform Better. 1,500 Mg. Mediator® 50 Mg. Apigenin (as ApiPure™) 50 Mg. Senactiv® 50 Mg. AstraGin® 5 Mg. Bioperine® Mediator® Phosphatidic Acid (PA) has been shown to...

anabolicminds.com

It's been great for strength gains for me, and @Dustin07 is just one example of someone who trains for strength and has posted about his results and progress and how much he likes it.


The company that sent me this is a reputable company. I've used them for 10 years and can honestly say that I haven't had a bad product.

Proper dosing has nothing to do with being a reputable company. A company can put in a product what the label says and the dosage can still be too low.

There are several companies I consider reputable that dose Mediator Phosphatidic Acid too low - I understand why they do it - it increases margins dramatically.

Think about if - if one company provides 1,500 mg. for 750 mg. active and another company provides 750 mg. for 375 mg. active, the one companies cost is almost double to produce and this is an expensive ingredient.

But from a results standpoint, that'd be like saying you're on a test cycle but using lower than an HRT dose and expecting the same results. It's just not happening.


I actually really rate HMB. I have read alot into it and it's machanism. Alot of people seem to slate it because it doesn't add slabs of muscle. If your in a calorie deficit though then I would say it's one of the best for maintaining your mass. I'm assuming that phosphatidic acid could also maintain mass aswell in a deficit?

I've advocated for and supported HMB for over 20 years. At one time, I was one of the only people here that had anything good to say about it. I defended it back when it was cool to bash on it.

But science advances as to ingredient offerings. It's not bad, and it was great for 20 year ago standards, but its just not nearly as impressive as things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and Pepti-Plex now.

Mechanism of action wise - you can't just equate things to each other because they start off working through the same or similar method of action. You mentioned anabolics - if we compared that simplistic view of a situation to anabolics, there would be nothing besides testosterone. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, Mediator Phosphatidic Acid will help maintain muscle as well. I've known of people to use Phosphatidic Acid XT for post surgery, injury recovery down times, etc.


HMB is very cheap here in the UK. I'm very certain it's great quality also. I've got a 500g bag sitting. I've been sent it a couple times as gifts during orders also. Mines is HMB-FA

The cost of raw materials is the cost of raw materials. I work in the supply side of the industry. I know what the patented myHMB costs and I know what the generic costs. I formulate for brands that use both.

You said that you could get a 6 month supply of HMB for what a 1 month supply of Phosphatidic Acid costs, which you said was £65/$84. That's simply not possible by quality raw material standards. I'm not debating you on that, its your money - I'm just telling you factually based off the raw material cost of quality materials, that's impossible.

I do want to point out though that you can get Phosphatidic Acid XT for £59.99 there.

Phosphatidic Acid XT contains:

• 1,500 mg. Mediator 50P (for 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid)
• 50 mg. Senactiv
• 50 mg. ApiPure Apigenin
• 50 mg. AstraGin
• 5 mg. Bioperine

So, that's a lot more than just Mediator and a lot of additional benefits and its £59.99

Buy SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT in the UK

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT contains a mega dosed 1,500 mg. of Mediator® providing 750 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid per serving.

unrealsupps.co.uk

Is the mediator a good seller for yourself's? I was just thinking of the overall cost. What can you realistically add while running this say for 2 months? Could it genuinely add some extra mass? While in a bulk.

Phosphatidic Acid XT is a good seller and has a lot of repeat sales. There are people that use it for 8 to 16 week cycles, but there are a lot of people that use it year round. That is why we started doing discounted 6 and 12 bottle multi-packs - because of the amount of people that use it year round.

It is great for lean muscle, strength, improved recovery, and excellent for holding onto muscle and strength while dieting.


I also thought the study was done using 750mg phosphatidic acid? The one I just read their was using 750mg anyway. I never knew it had a patent though and different quality's.

The study is 750 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid.
Phosphatidic Acid raw material is 50% actual Phosphatidic Acid.
Therefore, it takes 1,500 mg. of Phosphatidic Acid powder to equal 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid.


It reminds me of how some people think they're taking Arachidonic Acid and aren't taking enough to even matter. Many brands sell Arachidonic Acid in capsules, which is only 10% actual ARA. They dose based off total material rather than active content. That means that to get 1,000 mg. ARA per day, they would have to take 10 grams (min. 14 capsules) versus 4 X-Gels softgels equaling 1,000 mg. actual ARA.

 

[Dustin07]

The reason I ask is. I've read alot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed. I don't doubt the product works. Also. Some people don't know how to eat to grow also so it's not always the supplements fault.

It's been great for strength gains for me, and @Dustin07 is just one example of someone who trains for strength and has posted about his results and progress and how much he likes it.

I actually started a response to this thread earlier but you guys had so much sciencey mumbo jumbo going on in here I didn't want to get involved lol. Huge fan of Phosphatidic Acid XT. YUGE. it's a staple food source for peckasaurus rex. Since I'm on an all natty run right now basically (save for 1 squirt of XPG DHEA in the morning) it's an important part of my current regiment.

one of the things that I like about it is the constant muscle hardness all day long. The gym pumps are great, and of course that's fun but having that muscle firmness all day is pretty cool too. Tied my bench PR today with a healthy dose of SNS/CEL/Muscle addiction help.

 

[sns8778]

I actually started a response to this thread earlier but you guys had so much sciencey mumbo jumbo going on in here I didn't want to get involved lol. Huge fan of Phosphatidic Acid XT. YUGE. it's a staple food source for peckasaurus rex. Since I'm on an all natty run right now basically (save for 1 squirt of XPG DHEA in the morning) it's an important part of my current regiment.

one of the things that I like about it is the constant muscle hardness all day long. The gym pumps are great, and of course that's fun but having that muscle firmness all day is pretty cool too. Tied my bench PR today with a healthy dose of SNS/CEL/Muscle addiction help.

Ha. I can understand that, the not posting because of the science aspect. But real world feedback is always appreciated.

I thought of you specifically in this scenario because you've talked about your strength gains on it and gaining strength and retaining strength in a cut are very important to you. And me and @Resolve10 had already answered from the science side, so I thought a real world perspective like yours may be beneficial too

 

[Dustin07]

Ha. I can understand that, the not posting because of the science aspect. But real world feedback is always appreciated.

I thought of you specifically in this scenario because you've talked about your strength gains on it and gaining strength and retaining strength in a cut are very important to you. And me and @Resolve10 had already answered from the science side, so I thought a real world perspective like yours may be beneficial too

they say when your spouse dies it can leave an elderly person in a constant state of confusion because the two brains over time become a shared capacity and one brain will delegate tasks to the other brain and save itself the trouble of learning the things the other brain does. (she cooks, he fixes car, she can get a stain out of the shirt, maybe he can balance checkbook).

you're my supplement wife and I count on your brain to know the things, i just consume them and pick up weight and put weight back down. grunt grunt.

 

[Resolve10]

I think SNS did a good job going back over the questions you seemingly continued to have. You could really just read the studies or write up though if you want to keep asking the same questions about how it works, unless you really are just looking for feedback.

I find it hard to believe you only found negative feedback, there is a reason people were pounding soy lecithin for years trying to up their PA dose.

As far as anecdotal feedback it is just way more versatile than HMB. Even disregarding the fact that HMB really isn't that cheap either, most people don't seem to get benefits from HMB unless they are really doing something that needs to added anti-catabolic effects like an overreaching style of training or just hard training (which is beyond what most people think is actually hard). Where as PA can be beneficial in more scenarios since it is more like a training "amplifier" by boosting PA levels that already get boosted with nearly all types of training.

I never got much out of HMB and I used both higher dosed "cheapo" brands, more expensive quality HMB from places like NOW, and even the HMB Free Acid variations. I used them all during some pretty intense training cycles and honestly there was some benefit, but compared to other things it just wasn't as useful (nor cost effective). Something like HICA seemed more beneficial to me and PeptiStrong is also more versatile and done more benefit compared to what HMB is usually touted to benefit.

One of the benefits of some of these ingredients like PA, PeptiStrong, etc. is that they work in ways that should theoretically help enhance training response even in the presence of unnatural androgen levels/use. If you are really pushing the dose and running designer pro-steroids you may not see a ton since you are already stressing the system a ton, but they can play a part in recovery still and/or in some cases allow people to improve the quality of their training, progress and gains while maybe not feeling the need to push the dosages as hard or in between harder cycles.

PS you could also have just posted the brand of PA you are planning to use it is always easier for people to comment on the dosage and things of that nature when they can look at the actual label.

 

[Dustin07]

As far as anecdotal feedback it is just way more versatile than HMB. Even disregarding the fact that HMB really isn't that cheap either, most people don't seem to get benefits from HMB unless they are really doing something that needs to added anti-catabolic effects like an overreaching style of training or just hard training (which is beyond what most people think is actually hard). Where as PA can be beneficial in more scenarios since it is more like a training "amplifier" by boosting PA levels that already get boosted with nearly all types of training.

I never got much out of HMB and I used both higher dosed "cheapo" brands, more expensive quality HMB

That was my experience as well, I used to get my HMB comped back in the xfit days and it wasn't cheap. But I never noticed any benefit from it. That's when I was running around 8-10% BF, 2hr sessions, competitions, eating like a horse and 100% natural. I haven't even tried it in years because i just never saw anything from it, personally.

 

[sns8778]

I responded okay to HMB 15 to 20 years okay when mega dosing it versus other natural things available at the time, but there just wasn't much else available at the time.

Now, there are so many better options - Phosphatidic Acid XT or Pepti-Plex are great examples.

Recovery Fix, which contains HICA, is a great option too.

 

[Dustin07]

when mega dosing it

that could be the difference for me as well, I never mega dosed it, but only ever noticed benefits from creatine when mega dosing.

 

[BCseacow83]

I'm going to answer your questions by putting them in bold and italics and then will answer them individually below.

I've read a lot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed.

That's a pretty bold generalized statement being that there are tons of positive reviews on this forum alone on it.

It's important to distinguish when you say something like that, are you reading up on actual Mediator Phosphatidic Acid?
Or are you reading people absurdly mega dosing lecithin hoping to get enough Phosphatidic Acid?
Or are you reading people who tried a brand violating the patent and using who knows what actual % generic material?

See, its not just the name Mediator that makes it special. It's the production process.

Chemi Nutra, the patent holder, is a subsidiary of an Italian drug manufacturer, meaning that their raw materials are pharmaceutical standard, but even more importantly - it means they have the refined production capability to make the material.

Here's a link to a thread that has a lot of feedback on Phosphatidic Acid:

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT - Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder - Available Now - AnabolicMinds.com

Natural Anabolic Muscle Builder Ultra-Potent mTOR Activator 1,500 Mg. Mediator® Per Serving Look Better. Feel Better. Perform Better. 1,500 Mg. Mediator® 50 Mg. Apigenin (as ApiPure™) 50 Mg. Senactiv® 50 Mg. AstraGin® 5 Mg. Bioperine® Mediator® Phosphatidic Acid (PA) has been shown to...

anabolicminds.com

It's been great for strength gains for me, and @Dustin07 is just one example of someone who trains for strength and has posted about his results and progress and how much he likes it.


The company that sent me this is a reputable company. I've used them for 10 years and can honestly say that I haven't had a bad product.

Proper dosing has nothing to do with being a reputable company. A company can put in a product what the label says and the dosage can still be too low.

There are several companies I consider reputable that dose Mediator Phosphatidic Acid too low - I understand why they do it - it increases margins dramatically.

Think about if - if one company provides 1,500 mg. for 750 mg. active and another company provides 750 mg. for 375 mg. active, the one companies cost is almost double to produce and this is an expensive ingredient.

But from a results standpoint, that'd be like saying you're on a test cycle but using lower than an HRT dose and expecting the same results. It's just not happening.


I actually really rate HMB. I have read alot into it and it's machanism. Alot of people seem to slate it because it doesn't add slabs of muscle. If your in a calorie deficit though then I would say it's one of the best for maintaining your mass. I'm assuming that phosphatidic acid could also maintain mass aswell in a deficit?

I've advocated for and supported HMB for over 20 years. At one time, I was one of the only people here that had anything good to say about it. I defended it back when it was cool to bash on it.

But science advances as to ingredient offerings. It's not bad, and it was great for 20 year ago standards, but its just not nearly as impressive as things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and Pepti-Plex now.

Mechanism of action wise - you can't just equate things to each other because they start off working through the same or similar method of action. You mentioned anabolics - if we compared that simplistic view of a situation to anabolics, there would be nothing besides testosterone. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, Mediator Phosphatidic Acid will help maintain muscle as well. I've known of people to use Phosphatidic Acid XT for post surgery, injury recovery down times, etc.


HMB is very cheap here in the UK. I'm very certain it's great quality also. I've got a 500g bag sitting. I've been sent it a couple times as gifts during orders also. Mines is HMB-FA

The cost of raw materials is the cost of raw materials. I work in the supply side of the industry. I know what the patented myHMB costs and I know what the generic costs. I formulate for brands that use both.

You said that you could get a 6 month supply of HMB for what a 1 month supply of Phosphatidic Acid costs, which you said was £65/$84. That's simply not possible by quality raw material standards. I'm not debating you on that, its your money - I'm just telling you factually based off the raw material cost of quality materials, that's impossible.

I do want to point out though that you can get Phosphatidic Acid XT for £59.99 there.

Phosphatidic Acid XT contains:

• 1,500 mg. Mediator 50P (for 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid)
• 50 mg. Senactiv
• 50 mg. ApiPure Apigenin
• 50 mg. AstraGin
• 5 mg. Bioperine

So, that's a lot more than just Mediator and a lot of additional benefits and its £59.99

Buy SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT in the UK

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT contains a mega dosed 1,500 mg. of Mediator® providing 750 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid per serving.

unrealsupps.co.uk

Is the mediator a good seller for yourself's? I was just thinking of the overall cost. What can you realistically add while running this say for 2 months? Could it genuinely add some extra mass? While in a bulk.

Phosphatidic Acid XT is a good seller and has a lot of repeat sales. There are people that use it for 8 to 16 week cycles, but there are a lot of people that use it year round. That is why we started doing discounted 6 and 12 bottle multi-packs - because of the amount of people that use it year round.

It is great for lean muscle, strength, improved recovery, and excellent for holding onto muscle and strength while dieting.


I also thought the study was done using 750mg phosphatidic acid? The one I just read their was using 750mg anyway. I never knew it had a patent though and different quality's.

The study is 750 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid.
Phosphatidic Acid raw material is 50% actual Phosphatidic Acid.
Therefore, it takes 1,500 mg. of Phosphatidic Acid powder to equal 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid.


It reminds me of how some people think they're taking Arachidonic Acid and aren't taking enough to even matter. Many brands sell Arachidonic Acid in capsules, which is only 10% actual ARA. They dose based off total material rather than active content. That means that to get 1,000 mg. ARA per day, they would have to take 10 grams (min. 14 capsules) versus 4 X-Gels softgels equaling 1,000 mg. actual ARA.

In regards to "I've read a lot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed. "

I have seen MANY, MANY, MANY examples of an ingredient that is NOT on the cheap side being used by people who attempt to offset the cost by taking a half dose or taking weekends off or some other version of sub-optimal dosing. Even if the product was quality AND dosed appropriately by the manufacturers this matters little if the end user takes a half dose. No idea if this is happening here but I have seen this time and time again. You dig deeper and you find out the person who claims XYZ did nothing for them and you find out they were dosing the(recently was CBD in our store) at a whopping 5mg/day. Well a baby aspirin does little for a headache so I guess ASA is useless for pain, sigh.

Matter of fact I know a lady who was dosing 1 cap a day of a PA product that was 4 caps/day for the 1500mg mediator. She did like it but that is rarely the case when using 1/4 the rec. dose.

 

[Dustin07]

In regards to "I've read a lot of people's reviews of running phosphatidic acid and none seemed impressed. "

I have seen MANY, MANY, MANY examples of an ingredient that is NOT on the cheap side being used by people who attempt to offset the cost by taking a half dose or taking weekends off or some other version of sub-optimal dosing. Even if the product was quality AND dosed appropriately by the manufacturers this matters little if the end user takes a half dose. No idea if this is happening here but I have seen this time and time again. You dig deeper and you find out the person who claims XYZ did nothing for them and you find out they were dosing the(recently was CBD in our store) at a whopping 5mg/day. Well a baby aspirin does little for a headache so I guess ASA is useless for pain, sigh.

Matter of fact I know a lady who was dosing 1 cap a day of a PA product that was 4 caps/day for the 1500mg mediator. She did like it but that is rarely the case when using 1/4 the rec. dose.

makes sense. I did this when I first tried epiandro. I went into it fairly gingerly, thought I liked it. Then went in it heavy and fell in love.

 

[Supercellular]

I recently got sent a bottle of phosphatidic acid. It was a freebie so I thought I would just throw it in.

750mg split over 3 doses a day.

I've read into it but theirs one thing I don't understand. Especially since it isn't too cheap of a product. (Well in the UK here it isn't)

It's mode of action is to increase mtor? Why would this product be superior to say something like HMB? I got a 6 month supply of HMB for cheaper than a month's supply of phosphatidic acid. Don't they both just increase mtor + muscle protein synthesis?

I don't doubt the product has a use but for it's cost it just seems like their are cheaper options with the same mechanism.

Maybe I'm missing something but I know the basics of muscle building and how leucine etc is needed to raise muscle protein synthesis. Ie more protein = more spikes = more muscle building opportunities.

Anyone used phosphatidic acid and seen benefits more than say hmb or even just a whey protein?

PA works dosed right for me. Try a higher dose?

 

[Danksta710]

PA works dosed right for me. Try a higher dose?

This got me thinking. I already have SNS PA in hand for the future. I know some front load. Anyone double dose it longer? The more I learn about PA the more exciting it becomes.

 

[bell1986]

PA works dosed right for me. Try a higher dose?

What did you gain from a run of this? How long did you run it?

I only ran it because it was a freebie. I personally wouldn't buy it. It's pricey to run it for 3 months £195/$250 dollars.

I'm on trt and run the odd anabolic so I don't think it would give me any gains?

Are you running the SNS phosphatidic acid? The panel on it does look impressive. Can't ever fault sns tbh. Just consistent good products and very high quality.

 

[Halfnattyman44]

Just wanted to jump in and say several years ago I used some cheap Phosphatidic Acid from a company with an all orange box. Didn’t notice a thing. After being several years older and more experienced with SNS PA XT I loved it last winter. 2 bottles back to back, slight bulk, awesome strength gains.

 

[bell1986]

Just wanted to jump in and say several years ago I used some cheap Phosphatidic Acid from a company with an all orange box. Didn’t notice a thing. After being several years older and more experienced with SNS PA XT I loved it last winter. 2 bottles back to back, slight bulk, awesome strength gains.

Awesome

I've probably just been using a lower dosed poor quality product? I only ran it a month also.

The price tag puts me off or I would have gave it a good run

 

[Resolve10]

Confused because original post made it seem like you hadn’t run this but were confused on how it worked. Now it seems like you have so you should know if it benefitted you even though you also keep just not posting the product (although I get the sense I’m being ignored ).

 

[Dustin07]

I've probably just been using a lower dosed poor quality product? I only ran it a month also.

FWIW I didn't not understand how important ingredient sourcing was until I met @sns8778
He and I have had a number of long discussions and from what he has taught me I now understand that 2 different products on the shelf with the same label on them might not be the same. It's one of the reasons I use his products over anyone elses, because I know his sourcing is legit.

 

[Dustin07]

I should have run a Phosphatidic Acid XT log.
Just though I'd note that today I am 1 week into what I think is my 3rd run of PA XT, and its hitting hard already.
I had a simple bench day with tricep accessories and my arms felt so pumpy my dress shirt was very tight in the locker room when I got dressed to go to work.

the PA XT is the only new thing I have brought into my stack in the past couple weeks so I give it credit for that.

 

[sns8778]

It's pricey to run it for 3 months £195/$250 dollars.

I'm on trt and run the odd anabolic so I don't think it would give me any gains?

Yes, it would work well with TRT because its methods of action don't have anything at all to do with testosterone. A lot of people that are on TRT use it and really enjoy it.

With any natural anabolic, or really anything, some things that are very important are quality, correct dosage, proper expectations, and using whatever for the proper length of time to deliver the desired results.

I'm not sure what brand you're referring to that is that expensive, but many of the people in this thread that have provided feedback have provided it on Phosphatidic Acid XT and it is in the UK/EU from at least one retailer for £59.99 per bottle/£179.97 for 3 months.

Buy SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT in the UK

SNS Phosphatidic Acid XT contains a mega dosed 1,500 mg. of Mediator® providing 750 mg. of actual Phosphatidic Acid per serving.

unrealsupps.co.uk

That's £2.00 per day, or less money per day than most people spend on energy drinks or snacks.

It's not a cheap ingredient, but it's also not expensive per day, especially compared to some other things people spend their money on.

We also ship directly to the UK and we offer already discounted multi-pack pricing:

• 1 Bottle - 59.99 - £55.75 - https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/phosphatidic-acid-xt/
• 3 Bottles - 169.99 - £157.97 - https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/phosphatidic-acid-xt-3-pack/
• 4 Bottles - 219.99 - £204.43 - https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/phosphatidic-acid-xt-4-pack/
• 6 Bottles - 319.99 - £297.36 - https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/phosphatidic-acid-xt-6-bottles/
• 12 Bottles - 599.99 - £557.56 - https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/phosphatidic-acid-xt-12-bottles/

And we very frequently offer discounts and I'm glad to provide a discount code to any international customers that are looking to place larger orders to help offset their cost of shipping. Anyone is welcome to contact me for help with that.

 

[sns8778]

This got me thinking. I already have SNS PA in hand for the future. I know some front load. Anyone double dose it longer? The more I learn about PA the more exciting it becomes.

Yes, I have myself and I know a lot of people that run the double dosing for longer to saturate the system and get better results.

This is something that ties in to something being discussed in this thread - people saying that phosphatidic acid isn't effective when only using it for a month and not using the proper dosing to begin with.

Phosphatidic Acid is something that has to build up in the system in order to get best results.

The reason that people front load it is to get it built up in the system quicker to get results faster.

No one has to front load it, but it does help see results quicker for most people.