As a Natural body builder i am sometimes tempted by some of the anabolic products that are becoming available. What are your thoughts on some of the new pro-hormones coming to the market that are derivatives of DHEA (such as the primordial performance andro-series)? Are they as 'safe' as they are made out to be?
Thanks
Doc
DHEA has been tricky to understand on many levels; let alone it's metabolites - despite what marketing may suggest. Assuming your avatar is, in fact, you - you look like a pretty young guy for which I would say, skip it and save a boatload of money as they are being charged for at a VERY high dollar amount if I recall correctly.
But aside from just cost...
One concern I have is with those using it in search of an anabolic offering; the degree of how upstream the metabolite will influence anabolic/catabolic offering (yes, DHEA and it's metabolites CAN ALSO BE CATABOLIC). Then, of course, you must factor in a dose-dependency...with higher levels, you may achieve better results - but there is another edge to that sword.
DHEA inhibits glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PDH), an enzyme that breaks down glucose. There are two glucose-metabolizing pathways in the body: the catabolic, energy-yielding pathway, and the anabolic, biosynthetic pathway. G6PDH happens to be the first enzyme in the biosynthetic pathway, the one which results in the synthesis of fatty acids and ribose (the sugar used in making deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA). In simple language, G6PDH turns glucose into fat. DHEA's inhibition of G6PDH may redirect glucose from anabolic fat-production into catabolic energy metabolism, thus creating a leaner metabolism.
While that may sound great from a fat loss standpoint, keep in mind that UNLESS you are suffering from a significant decline in DHEA (and, obviously it's metabolites...like people from an aged standpoint), then you will likely not see precipitous benefit. Also, being too far upstream might also mean shunting down an estrogenic cascade. Again, I understand the claims and understand the suggestion of manufacturers that this not be a possibility or suggesting a bit of estrogen is not a bad thing for muscle growth (that's really pushing the envelope btw). Let me make it abundantly clear - perhaps with an exclusion of the 7-keto pathway;
a lot of these metabolites are POORLY understood despite the best suggestion by manufacturers and I would argue it to the death (and I am possibly dubbed a bad guy as a result, a tag I am willing to wear).
At the same time, the consumer remains optimistic (hopefully in a cautious fashion) that maybe, just maybe...something will "save" us from all the oral PH/PS/DS bans meanwhile embracing the role of being guinea pigs for certain companies and nothing more.
Now - you may think I am adamantly against their use with my response, BUT that is far from the case...I am ALL FOR experimentation and pushing the ergogenic envelope (in fact, I have done plenty of it in my day and sometimes still do - see DAA stuff, et al...) with the idea that everyone understands what they are doing and to the best of our ability (I think that this falls short a lot unfortunately) and not sugar-coating it or being dubious in presentation. In other words, if you are going to play the role of an experimental participant; understand all the potential risks and benefits.
Moving to the products in question...there have been some things Primordial has done that left me scratching my head and while I can't immediately write off the "Andro Series" products (I'll get to the why in a minute), I am fearful that donning the name "Andro" has a connotation that is very dubious - trying to allow the consumer to jump on a certain train of thought that may not exactly be the case.
DHEA has been referenced as a "Buffering Steroid" - but we're hoping its steroid offering is not just structure alone. DHEA and its metabolites may be unique among hormones for its lack of specificity for hormone receptor sites. Just as vitamin E has never been shown to have a specific metabolic role (it is only proven essential as a general antioxidant), DHEA and metabolites may serve an equally general purpose and that's not necessarily a bad thing. They are broad-acting hormones that only demonstrate themselves under a specific set of circumstances. In that way, it is comparable to a buffer against sudden changes in acidity or alkalinity. That is why when you get older, you're much more vulnerable to the effects of stress. As DHEA and subsequently metabolites decline with age, you are losing the buffer against stress-related hormones. It is the buffer action that [helps prevent] us from aging. The decrease of DHEA and metabolites with age may result in gradual decline of a system for suppressing enzyme systems responsible for creating the building blocks of new cells, such as lipids, nucleic acids (RNA and DNA), and sex steroids. The resulting rise in enzymatic activity in advanced age may be responsible for the proliferative events (e.g., cancer) and degenerative disease that become more frequent in advanced age. In this respect, DHEA and metabolites might be best considered to be an anti-hormone, which may "de-excite" steroid-sensitive receptors that would otherwise lead to enhanced metabolic activity.
Now - the adrenal gland is fun, imperative, and without it you'd not be able to cope with stress and die! That's pretty drastic; one might see the workout timeframe as a period of significant stress that allows even the youngest person achieve a biochemical profile of the aged. In other words, if results are to be achieved and they are measurable, they are going to be in the acute workout setting...especially with extension of workouts beyond the 45-55 minute mark and nothing more.
From a "safety" standpoint; I don't know enough about you to make such an outrageous assessment nor do I believe anyone could say with 100% certainty that they understand the safety features of ANY of these metabolites. I would be doing you a disservice to saying I know how such a supplement could benefit your particular case. For starters, you are young...but as I said above, while your levels may not be down...in an acute setting or if you are even overttraining; the products may harbor a benefit...but I know nothing about your regimen.
If you're competing...in a truly "natural" fashion - which I think kind of goes the way of the dinosaur as I think 100% of people aren't "natural" in its truest dimensions (i.e. - excess food which is anabolic, supplements which are unnatural in tallies and so on...). But, let's say you compete in a natural show...then you may run into some resistance from use.
I can't blame temptation. When Androstenedione was first released (around the time OSMO was making it - ha... you can ask Patrick Arnold about that project), I went out of my way to find it ... I was bright-eyed, bushy-tailed and in my early years of endocrine development. We subsequently discovered quite a bit more about it and I wish I hadn't taken it (possibly how you'd feel with multiple years of these metabolites on the market, I am unsure). But - there's a point...you're still looking to achieve your best physique; to better yourself...and I cannot fault the concept.
Would it do you benefit in the acute setting of a workout? Possibly. Is it going to be so astronomic that it will make a precipitous difference in the long-term? Probably not. If you're going to invest in something, I'd say - let the other guy be the guinea pig. There are things that are available that are more "tried and true." Am I endorsing illegal use of anything? NO WAY! But, I am saying that government has made the situation far from enticing to say the things that remain are the SAFEST, we just don't know enough (and again, I will take on all challengers that would like to protest that).
Where does that leave you? No idea. I am willing to bet with 100% certainy that anything I say will cure your curiosity. You are either going to embark on the media-based "darkside" or you're not. Just be as well informed as you can (kind of hard in this situation) and maybe understand that the decisions to remain "natural" (whatever the hell that means anymore) is a "moral" one and probably nothing more.
D_
