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PCT-- Nolva AND Clomid??

RobInKuwait said:
This may be slightly off topic, but since we're talking about Nolva and Clomid, I always hear people say something along the lines of 40/30/20 for nolva. I'm sure people have tried higher doses. Has anyone heard if theres a difference in PCT recovery time if you took say 100mg ED versus the standard 40mg ED?
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No, there wont.


Increased recovery time is produced by increasing the response of Leydig cells to LH pulses. Nolva, Clomid, Letro, etc..will not do this, only HCG will (which should be used during a cycle, not after)
 
Bobo said:
No, there wont.


Increased recovery time is produced by increasing the response of Leydig cells to LH pulses. Nolva, Clomid, Letro, etc..will not do this, only HCG will (which should be used during a cycle, not after)
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Ok, interesting. Thanks bobo.
 
DR.D said:
Yeah, that sound fine. But you probably don't need the 6-oxo. Why inhibit your estrogen formation if the Clomid already has the receptor occupied? Plus, you won't be making too much estrogen for awhile with the lowered test levels you have after a cycle. AI's are better when on cycle using high doses of aromatizing gear like test or 4ad.
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If clomid is occupying the estrogen receptor site, wouldn't that mean that the body would respond by creating more receptor sites, thus when you come off of clomid, gyno is a possibility because of the increased receptor sites?

This is a great thread...you know what, I think we need a Dr. D's PCT sticky ;)

EDIT: So for precautionary gyno measures, do you still recommend Nolva while on cycle, or would you recommend somehting different?

EDIT AGAIN: You know, the more I read, the more confused I get. :frustrate There is so much conflicting information! Grrr...I just want to PCT safely and effectively, is that too much to ask!
<me\ rips hair out!>
 
good question there kw, I was thinking about the same thing. Would there be feedback to increase receptors or not ?
 
Yeah, my post was a bit misleading, because estrogen levels can rise sharply after a cycle, and rebound can occur after PCT if receptors are upregulated. Also, strong androgens can mask the presence of estrogen and cortisol, and it becomes quite apparent if you fail to pyramid down at the end. Based on all the arguments by Bobo, Size, and others in favor of Nolva, I have decided to adopt a new stratagy on my next PCT. A Clomid up front and Nolva trail off combo stack. Maybe something like this:

Week 1: 100mg Clomid , 50mg Nolva
Week 2: 50mg Clomid, 50mg Nolva
Week 3: 25mg Clomid, 25mg Nolva
week 4-6: 25mg Nolva

Maybe not just like that, but something to that effect. The jump from the Clomid, but then the long term advantage from the Nolva, that the Clomid does not possess.

Where's the damn Toremifen! :mad:
Custom (and others) are losing out on some mucho cash by not selling this! It could revolutionize PCT !!!!
 
DR.D said:
Yeah, my post was a bit misleading, because estrogen levels can rise sharply after a cycle, and rebound can occur after PCT if receptors are upregulated. Also, strong androgens can mask the presence of estrogen and cortisol, and it becomes quite apparent if you fail to pyramid down at the end. Based on all the arguments by Bobo, Size, and others in favor of Nolva, I have decided to adopt a new stratagy on my next PCT. A Clomid up front and Nolva trail off combo stack. Maybe something like this:

Week 1: 100mg Clomid , 50mg Nolva
Week 2: 50mg Clomid, 50mg Nolva
Week 3: 25mg Clomid, 25mg Nolva
week 4-6: 25mg Nolva

Maybe not just like that, but something to that effect. The jump from the Clomid, but then the long term advantage from the Nolva, that the Clomid does not possess.

Where's the damn Toremifen! :mad:
Custom (and others) are losing out on some mucho cash by not selling this! It could revolutionize PCT !!!!
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Cool, that sounds good Dr. D...thanks for the clarification ;)

BTW, is this 6 week PCT your standard PCT length? I've always heard 1 week PCT to 1 week ON, but I'm sure that isn't necessarily true after a given point. Or more simply, if I do a cycle between 8 and 10 weeks in length, is this 6 week PCT sufficient?

Oh, and what is the maximum cycle length you would recommend without access to HCG? (/me throws a pity party for myself. :()

I thought I had my PCT all set, now I'm second guessing myself like crazy and now I'm going to start over from scratch :frustrate
 
It becomes a game of trial and error. I've made many errors! So my instincts are sharp in the area of experimentation. I usually do 6-10 week cycles. So my PCT lasts for 4-8 weeks. If I get unusually suppressed, I'll start the hCG milking stretch during the cycle (500 or 1000iu up to 2x/wk.) Otherwise, stick with orals and the few injectable that don't overly suppress. If not, keep the cycles much shorter, like 3 or 4 weeks, then a 1 month SERM is all you usually need. It gets complicated, and I'm always trying new methods.

Don't worry kwyckemynd00, we'll get you through PCT somehow! ;)
 
So if you have a bit of pubertal gyno and want to make sure it doesn't flare up during a cycle, would one still take a low dose of Nolva during the cycle or would Letro be the better choice?
 
Nolva, by far.
 
DR.D said:
BTW, when the tracers become apparent, I stop for a few days and then rechallenge at a lower dose. If they come back, I abort Clomid completely for the rest of PCT. Forget about your nuts, your optic nerve and eyesight are more important. I cut PCT short about 25% of the time for this particular side. But, if you say '**** it' and finish off the rest of the planned Clomid, it can take months to resolve the eye probs, and that ain't good.
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hmm.. I had LASIK surgery on my eyes a couple of months back, and I don't want to fry 5000 bucks worth of vision correction with a few bucks worth of Clomid... guess I'll abort my attempts to decide on the best PCT and just go with the Nolva... (pity, too, 'cause I kinda groove on tracers... :blink:
 
DR.D said:
...Where's the damn Toremifen! :mad:
Custom (and others) are losing out on some mucho cash by not selling this! It could revolutionize PCT !!!!
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A-men. :cheers:
 
randydogsf said:
hmm.. I had LASIK surgery on my eyes a couple of months back, and I don't want to fry 5000 bucks worth of vision correction with a few bucks worth of Clomid... guess I'll abort my attempts to decide on the best PCT and just go with the Nolva... (pity, too, 'cause I kinda groove on tracers... :blink:
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I did PCT just a month after LASIK, and gave up Accutane 2 weeks just before! So don't worry too much, it turned out OK. :o
 
DR.D said:
I even know one woman who had to have all of her teeth removed after starting Tamox therapy. That's after her hair fell out, and she didn't have anything else wrong with her before that. It's some weird **** and should not be used as causually as it is.
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are you saying that tamox can cause you to lose your teeth?? if she was taking tamox then that means she already had breast cancer and was going through kemo. and her hair fell out?? all thats seems like it was from the kemo, and not the tamox. you said "she didnt have anything else wrong with her before that", but it sounds like she had alot of **** wrong with her.....
 
No, she was only using tam for post-menopause control, she had no neoplastic issues. I admit that this is rare, but it was definately a result of the tam. The toxicity is mostly neuropathic in her case. It reflects an exaggerated reaction but similar in nature to the optic nerve degeneration that is more common.
 
DR.D said:
.....If I get unusually suppressed, I'll start the hCG milking stretch during the cycle....
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milking and stretching??? that sounds like something I'd hear on a get big "PE" forum ;) j/k

Thanks for the help!

I was just getting confused be seeing so much talk of 4 week PCT's. It makes more sense now, thanks again!

So basically, I should just try hard to feel and guage my supression and how I'm recovering, etc. I'll probably just run PCT for about 6 weeks (when I do) and if I feel like I need more, I'll go longer.

My cycle will be 8-10 weeks of 1-Test cyp, 4OHT Cyp, M1,4add so I'll probably need a good PCT, eh :D
 
JesusSaves said:
where can one come up on some Nolva???
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Board sponsors my friend....

Invalid Link Removed

Under it's generic name tomoxifen citrate.

EDIT: look in the research materials page....

Oh, and Clomid is clomiphene citrate (generic name).
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
milking and stretching??? that sounds like something I'd hear on a get big "PE" forum ;) j/k

Thanks for the help!

I was just getting confused be seeing so much talk of 4 week PCT's. It makes more sense now, thanks again!

So basically, I should just try hard to feel and guage my supression and how I'm recovering, etc. I'll probably just run PCT for about 6 weeks (when I do) and if I feel like I need more, I'll go longer.

My cycle will be 8-10 weeks of 1-Test cyp, 4OHT Cyp, M1,4add so I'll probably need a good PCT, eh :D
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HAHAHA, I'm a farmer now, is that what your saying?! :lol: "Milking and streching" aint a bad idea to a country boy like me man!

I usually go 4 to 8 wks just doing what feels right. Usually on the longer side, and your cycle sounds like it may shut you down especially if the M14 dose is high enough for long enough. But I like the sound of that combo.
 
DR.D said:
HAHAHA, I'm a farmer now, is that what your saying?! :lol: "Milking and streching" aint a bad idea to a country boy like me man!
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roflmao...milking is another term for jelqing (sp?)...I was just puttin' out some inappropriate nonsense :D
I usually go 4 to 8 wks just doing what feels right. Usually on the longer side, and your cycle sounds like it may shut you down especially if the M14 dose is high enough for long enough. But I like the sound of that combo.
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Thx again for the help...I'm getting excited about it myself. I just need to get my diet on track before I get going. My body wants to grow, too. It's sad. I've gained LBM on a bad diet because my body just decided it wanted to grow...weird :think: If it werent for my schooling, I could probably put some meat on these spaghetti arms....:(
 
Doc D, there are two sources that I know off that claim to have what you request. pleae PM me if you want the URL. I dont know them and can't vouch for credibility, I will try and ask around.
 
I am going to go on a 4 week cycle of M4OHN and was wondering if anyone had suggestions on how to pyramid Nolva when I come off?
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Board sponsors my friend....

Invalid Link Removed

Under it's generic name tomoxifen citrate.

EDIT: look in the research materials page....

Oh, and Clomid is clomiphene citrate (generic name).
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Can't find the research materials page. Am I just being dense or something?
 
Blesum said:
Can't find the research materials page. Am I just being dense or something?
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No, it's not you. Custom is out of research chems at the moment. He said it should be a few weeks or so for them.
 
For now, I would say go here: Invalid Link Removed

I haven't used them, but others have vouched for their products and they seem to be the only ones that have nolva and clomid at the moment.
 
UHCougar05 said:
For now, I would say go here: Invalid Link Removed

I haven't used them, but others have vouched for their products and they seem to be the only ones that have nolva and clomid at the moment.
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ctdresearch dot net also has them, ive used them before and they are great.
 
atrain said:
I am going to go on a 4 week cycle of M4OHN and was wondering if anyone had suggestions on how to pyramid Nolva when I come off?
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If your m4ohn dose is not higher than 32mg, you would be fine with just 3 weeks of Nolva or even 6oxo.
m4ohn is very few supperssing, you may run 40/30/20 without worrying at all.
 
DR D why dont u read this before decide which one is best for PCT

Invalid Link Removed

Nolva/clomid i hope ull like ?
 
rking said:
DR D why dont u read this before decide which one is best for PCT

Invalid Link Removed

Nolva/clomid i hope ull like ?
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Thanks for the link, very intresting argument.
 
is clomid and nolva dangerous towards 19 year old kids....my son who doesnt live with me is jumping on m1t and 4derm, and wants to run nolva and/or clomid will this be harmful to him?
 
blitzit said:
is clomid and nolva dangerous towards 19 year old kids....my son who doesnt live with me is jumping on m1t and 4derm, and wants to run nolva and/or clomid will this be harmful to him?
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the m1t is what is dangerous not the nolva or clomid
 
The Nolva and Clomid ain't nothin' nice either, but the M1T is far more dangerous. Just make sure he cycles. A lot of 'kids' make the mistake of just staying on all the time. You have to be smart in order to survive yourself and achieve your goals.
 
Jelquing, oh my!!!

How does a 24 year old have kids using anabolics?, something's amiss here.

Nolva would appear to be less potentially side effect free than Clomid, it's a better $ buy, and debatebly more effective, but either will do and both are inferior to what we should all be looking for/doing, HCG and possibly N or C added to it.
 
Rogue Drone said:
Jelquing, oh my!!!

How does a 24 year old have kids using anabolics?, something's amiss here.

Nolva would appear to be less potentially side effect free than Clomid, it's a better $ buy, and debatebly more effective, but either will do and both are inferior to what we should all be looking for/doing, HCG and possibly N or C added to it.
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I was wondering that myself, only 5 years diff between 24 and 19... it may not add up, but the answer remains the same
 
I don't think I expressed that Nolva statement correctly, the double negative nullified itself, I meant to say Nolva appears to me to have less potential side effects than Clomid.

For me, My SERM only PCT days are over. HCG oncycle and Post, possibly with Nolva, are the protocol, with Dermal Pregnenelone as the ongoing hormonal maintenence method.
 
im gonna take a 4 week cycle of 1ad, 4ad. so i have 600 mg a day for 30 days. (this is tentative), what should i take during the cycle to stop estrogens?
 
darkcrayz said:
im gonna take a 4 week cycle of 1ad, 4ad. so i have 600 mg a day for 30 days. (this is tentative), what should i take during the cycle to stop estrogens?
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I wouldn't stop it. But then again, I don't get gyno from 4AD like some (test is a different story.) If you have a potential issue, a small amount of letro ~0.1mg/d
 
DR.D said:
I wouldn't stop it. But then again, I don't get gyno from 4AD like some (test is a different story.) If you have a potential issue, a small amount of letro ~0.1mg/d
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i dont know about gyno, it will be my first cycle. i just dont want to chance it.

what about nolvadex during cycle?
 
NO! Only if gyno developes use Nolva on cycle. You might hear different, so go on and ask around, but don't use SERM any more than is required I say. Use an enzyme inhibitor or suicide substrate (steroidal) on cycle.
 
Rogue Drone said:
I don't think I expressed that Nolva statement correctly, the double negative nullified itself, I meant to say Nolva appears to me to have less potential side effects than Clomid.
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True.

For me, My SERM only PCT days are over. HCG oncycle and Post, possibly with Nolva, are the protocol, with Dermal Pregnenelone as the ongoing hormonal maintenence method.
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I wish HCG was NOT injected :(
 
sorry to change the subject a little bit, but do you guys know where the best place to get nolvadex is? i emailed customnutritionwarehouse.com and they said they don't have any and won't be getting any more in. where are you guys getting yours
 
jkaz182003 said:
sorry to change the subject a little bit, but do you guys know where the best place to get nolvadex is? i emailed customnutritionwarehouse.com and they said they don't have any and won't be getting any more in. where are you guys getting yours
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oh that sucks, anyway some people used IBE nutrition for research chems.
 
jkaz182003 said:
sorry to change the subject a little bit, but do you guys know where the best place to get nolvadex is? i emailed customnutritionwarehouse.com and they said they don't have any and won't be getting any more in. where are you guys getting yours
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Good question. IBE is good, but expensive compared to what Custom had his for. Maybe someone can PM us a new source on RC's
 
jkaz182003 said:
sorry to change the subject a little bit, but do you guys know where the best place to get nolvadex is? i emailed customnutritionwarehouse.com and they said they don't have any and won't be getting any more in. where are you guys getting yours
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No more??? Damn....damn, damn, damn!

I was going to start a cycle soon, too. Does anyone have an idea of how soon sledge will be coming out with his PCT product??? I'll also need to find a anti-e for during the cycle...it's going to be a wet one!!
 
Some still have stuff, but LionNut. is the only one I've used that does, kinda expensive though
 
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