PCT-- Nolva AND Clomid??
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rking
New member
DR.D said:It becomes a game of trial and error. I've made many errors! So my instincts are sharp in the area of experimentation. I usually do 6-10 week cycles. So my PCT lasts for 4-8 weeks. If I get unusually suppressed, I'll start the hCG milking stretch during the cycle (500 or 1000iu up to 2x/wk.) Otherwise, stick with orals and the few injectable that don't overly suppress. If not, keep the cycles much shorter, like 3 or 4 weeks, then a 1 month SERM is all you usually need. It gets complicated, and I'm always trying new methods.
Don't worry kwyckemynd00, we'll get you through PCT somehow!
"HCG works is that it replaces and acts like a synthetic LH, and forces the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, so this late into PCT it would just cause further suppression (of LH, not testosterone). That's why it is best used throughout your cycle, because you're producing no LH and the HCG will force your balls (Leydig cells) to produce test. Then when you come off cycle (and HCG), your Leydig cells are already producing testosterone so when you use nolva/clomid (to help start producing LH), your Leydig cells will respond that much more quickly to the LH you begin to produce on your own again, and start producing testosterone right away. "
Dr D suppose a person is on 4 week MIT/4 AD cycle.
what you think if he use A stack of HCG, and clomid would be a good bridge stack and would allow body to return to normal and still allow and to retain and make new gains.
judge-mental
Board Supporter
Doc D. is 4-hydroxyisoleucine as good as the fenu extract for PCT? I have some old EAS insuload which are "4-hydroxyisoleucine derived from fenugreek extract" and give you "the smell" 
what do you think?
what do you think?
natedogg
Well-known member
What about a clomid/nolva mix? I'm talking specifically about a liquid combo I saw on CTD which had a mixture of 100mg clomid/40mg nolva per ml. Do you think using both would be more beneficial or just do more harm than good? Think I also saw a combo like this on IBE as well.
Blesum
Maestro
The IBE combo is 10mg/ml nova, 50mg/ml clomid.natedogg said:
I'm looking as well, but think I would want to steer clear of the combos so I have more control over the dosage ratios of each compound, especially if gyno or tracers appear. Can adjust one or the other instead of having to go off completely and scramble to find some stuff quickly.
-Blesum
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
CNW, sorry...I keep writing CNR for some reason :think:BigVrunga said:
DR.D
Well-known member
rking said:
With M1T, methyltest or anything estrogenic (because leydig cells do have an estrogen receptor) you can make a good argument that hCG should be used from the start. However, the more you use it and the longer you use it, the less responsive you become to it. So many times it's best right at the end of a cycle to prevent the post cycle crash and burn while your waiting for the clomid to kick it. I also think you respond better/faster to SERM when your testicle are more functinal. So on a long cycle, I'll start hCG 2 wks before the end, when I'm pyramiding down on the orals because I've usually stopped the IM's at that point, and up to 2wk more after that and then keep going up to 5 more wks with the SERM alone.
DR.D
Well-known member
judge-mental said:Doc D. is 4-hydroxyisoleucine as good as the fenu extract for PCT? I have some old EAS insuload which are "4-hydroxyisoleucine derived from fenugreek extract" and give you "the smell"
what do you think?
The 4-OH-IsoLeucine is the component in Fen that potentiates insulin. Be carefull because symptoms of hypoglycemia may occur if used solo. But it's not the constituent that helps with PCT. It's used in combo with valine and leucine to promote muscle recovery.
judge-mental
Board Supporter
haha tell me about it! the first time I took it post workout on a TKD I almost fainted in the supermarket, shivers, cold sweats and the works.DR.D said:
so youre saying its no use for PCT ha. ok. I'll get the original thing, question is I wonder if will it have the same insulin potentiating effects, just so I'll be carefull
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Dr. D is always full of great information. One of the boards greatest assetsCuffs said:
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
All I learned was that PCT is much more complicated than I once thought it was :think:DR.D said:You guys are too kind, seems this thread has caused some contraversy too, but we've all learned new ideas as a result, so that's the important thing.
But, there was some great posting going on lol...Forum User X
New member
This thread is very interesting. I'll have to get some Milk Thistle right away. A question for those who know: what would be best for my pubertal gyno? I've heard Nolva is good but Letro is a powerful anti-E (as evidenced by this thread) so I'm split. Would they achieve the same results? At the dosing needed, Letro would definitely be cheaper and appears to be a lot less harmful to your body. I know Bobo said Nolva but I'm really just wondering if Letro can do the job without the bodily harm and its a little easier on my wallet. I've read the reports that say that Nolvadex removes 56% of breast tissue in 18 months but no Letro reports. I suppose I could play guinea pig but I'd like to know more about Letro and pre-existing gyno. Dr. D?
DR.D
Well-known member
If you have active gyno, Nolva is the best option. Once it's under control or the tissue seems to have shrunk as much as it will, I'd make the switch to letro ASAP. Remember that Nolva has a very long half live and continues to work for you for weeks or more after you stop. If gyno is dormant right now, go with the letro only.
Forum User X
New member
By dormant you mean not growing? It hasn't grown for years I imagine. I got it when I was maybe 12 or 13 and hasn't grown for years. So still use Nolva?
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Wait, is this in regards to pubescent gyno? I've got some "slightly puffy" nips from when I was going through P...are you saying here that letro can help that???DR.D said:
Forum User X
New member
Thanks for the help. I took some more Tamoxifen today but today will be it. I'll only use it for PCT against Letro in case of the estrogen bounceback, probably at 60 mg one week and 30 mg the next.
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Ahhh....gotcha.DR.D said:
Well, the hard lumps left me when I was a youngin' (seems to run in the family) and now I'm just left with a hollow puffy pair of nips...oh well.... *sigh*
On a lighter note, my g/f is constantly rubbing on them b/c their puffy...I guess that's kind of a good thing
:think:
DR.D
Well-known member
kwyckemynd00 said:On a lighter note, my g/f is constantly rubbing on them b/c their puffy...I guess that's kind of a good thing
Yeah man, it can't be bad! Anytime your girl wants to rub on something, that sounds like a good thing to me!! Maybe I'm just a prevert like that
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Well, I'm just a perv like that , too. So, it's okayDR.D said:
It's just when she starts playing with the ears that I have to lay down the law!
PumpDogg
Member
Hey Dr. D, I am on HRT and an antiestrogen ed ( raloxifene ). i had gyno removed last year from puberty and cycles without pct many many years ago, my question for you is this. If I dont use antiestrogens my nips get sore and start to swell, so what am I really looking at long term here? I could try and get my endo to use clomid to get me back to normal, I know that has been done, however I like having great test levels all the time. What are your thoughts on this? Without any test I had an overall level of 200, now it stays between 6-800 ndgl everycheck. I dont want to suffer through the sides I did for years with low test again if possible, but I dont want to set myself up for major problems in the future either. I appreciate the help
PD
PD
fairplay101
New member
I'd like to know the Docs (or anybody experienced) views on how badly one PCT cycle of Nolva could affect you long-term?
I'm about to try a steroid cycle for the 1st time and from what I've been reading PCT seems to be a much bigger minefield than on cycle! I drive for a living so I'm not going to risk Clomid, it's not worth it! Therefore Nolva is the best option (I'm running an oral turinabol cycle for 6 weeks by the way and it should not aromatize easily) for me. I also have Trib, 6-OXO and Vitex to hand. What would you recommend?
I'm about to try a steroid cycle for the 1st time and from what I've been reading PCT seems to be a much bigger minefield than on cycle! I drive for a living so I'm not going to risk Clomid, it's not worth it! Therefore Nolva is the best option (I'm running an oral turinabol cycle for 6 weeks by the way and it should not aromatize easily) for me. I also have Trib, 6-OXO and Vitex to hand. What would you recommend?
BigVrunga
Well-known member
One 4-week PCT with Nolva isnt going to do affect you negatively in the long term. You should take liver-protectants, however. (throughout the whole cycle, not just pct.)
One option, depending on the length of your cycle, is to supplement the nolva dose with an anti-aromatase like 6-OXO. 2 weeks of 6-OXO @ 600mg/day and 1 week @ 300mg/day orally and you could use less Tamoxifen Citrate - 40/30/20/20 worked great for me after 4 weeks of 1test/4AD
Might be more expensive - but the less SERMS I have to use the better.
BV
One option, depending on the length of your cycle, is to supplement the nolva dose with an anti-aromatase like 6-OXO. 2 weeks of 6-OXO @ 600mg/day and 1 week @ 300mg/day orally and you could use less Tamoxifen Citrate - 40/30/20/20 worked great for me after 4 weeks of 1test/4AD
Might be more expensive - but the less SERMS I have to use the better.
BV
fairplay101
New member
Cheers dude, I'm doing a relatively low dose oral of Turanabol this cycle (6wks) so my PCT doesn't need to be huge anyway. I'll run Nolva at 60mg day 1, 40mg days 2-10, 20mg days 11-20. I might do some 6-OXO alongside, but I should think that amount of Nolva would be enough for this cycle. I will use the Trib though.BigVrunga said:
DudleyDawson
New member
Did you use any nolva on cycle?
BigVrunga
Well-known member
No. I always made sure I had it on hand in case the need would arise, but I think using anykind of SERM on cycle is a bad idea. ESPECIALLY if you are using methylated orals. Nolvadex and methylated steroids are broken down by the same liver enzyme, CYP2D6, so using them in conjunction would cause undue stress on the liver.
If you look at supersoldier's log "this is your liver on M1T", you can see his liver values spiked the 1st week of PCT w/Nolva. I would assume it was because there was still m1T in his system, and his liver had some extra work to do once he started the Tamoxifen.
Liver protection is a must when using these products, but I think stating that is just preaching to the choir here
BV
If you look at supersoldier's log "this is your liver on M1T", you can see his liver values spiked the 1st week of PCT w/Nolva. I would assume it was because there was still m1T in his system, and his liver had some extra work to do once he started the Tamoxifen.
Liver protection is a must when using these products, but I think stating that is just preaching to the choir here
BV
DR.D
Well-known member
PumpDogg said:
Hey Pump,
Evista is kind of different. It looks kinder than the rest, and I know women who have been on it almost 2 years now with no probs, but I have never tried it and am still cautious. The molecule itself is more easily metabolized and the t1/2 is much shorter than most other SERMS. It looks much friendlier than Clomid, I'd stick with it plus your HRT. It's metabolism and absorbtion is weird and ineffecient, so eat it w/ a high fat meal to maximize a 60-120mg dose, I assume that's what your taking. If you are talking long term, I'd go with letro and milk it for as long as it works, but the ral isn't too bad. It's great on lipid values (lowers LD and doesn't affect HD)
DR.D
Well-known member
fairplay101 said:
I'm with BV, one time shouldn't cause any signifigant long term damage. It all adds up, that's the real danger, casual and frequent use. I have never tried Turinol, but I hear it's friendly to the HPA. I'd cut the Nolva doses you suggested in half, especially if your going to stack it with some 6-oxo and/or trib. I know I require a month or two for a good PCT, but if your otherwise healthy and responsive, you probably shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 weeks.
bandit9308
Board Supporter
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Birdsizzle
New member
Dr. D the IBE forum might have something worth checking out... looks like your dreams will finally be coming true.
What dosing do you suggest for toremifene for a 4 week Phera-plex cycle?
What dosing do you suggest for toremifene for a 4 week Phera-plex cycle?
Birdsizzle
New member
wow talk about response time. but regardless of whether we're talking 4AD or superdrol or phera-plex you'd suggest toremifene over tamoxifen citrate or even clomid correct? It'll be intersting to see what the price is and if the cost/benefit ratio wil;l be worth it.
Zero Tolerance
Registered User
Man.. 15mg a day of Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) is as harsh on your liver as 50mg on Anadrol a day? Scary, scary, scary.. I've been using about 20mg a day for almost 2 weeks now - about to lower my dose...
I think we need to make a sticky in regards to PCT. Something that states what some of our "experts" "feel" is a good regimen for certain types of cycles.. I think a sticky like this may save many of our lives in the years to come...
I think we need to make a sticky in regards to PCT. Something that states what some of our "experts" "feel" is a good regimen for certain types of cycles.. I think a sticky like this may save many of our lives in the years to come...
DR.D
Well-known member
Actually, looking back at old blood work, 50mg anadrol is about equal to ~15-25mg Nolva as far as liver enzyme elevation is concerned. I use to do a lot of anadrol. Of course, that's not to say 150mg anadrol = 150 Clomid = 45mg Nolva in liver toxicity. I'm sure the high dose androgen is more acutely toxic while the Nolva is more long term toxic with it's much longer half-life and metabolite accumulation. I've never used over 75mg anadrol so I can't say beyond that. My whole point is that Nolva is not as friendly as many think it is.