Oral Epicatechin vs TD

[tubzy]

I asked for proof of the universal efficacy you've alluded to. This says something about curcumin and that's it.

That bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450? Cite my post in this thread that I said I had evidence on and I'll reply.

 

[tubzy]

I think it's fair to say that you've just now posted your first piece of evidence.

Damn, you getting slick with those edits. I was still replying to your original post - why did you change it

 

[nostrum420]

That bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450? Cite my post in this thread that I said I had evidence on and I'll reply.

You're saying you don't have evidence?

 

[nostrum420]

He didn't ask for epicatechin he asked for bioperine?

I also did ask that you stay principled about the specificity of your evidence relative to the subject at hand. The thread has epicatechin in the title, not curcumin.

 

[tubzy]

You're saying you don't have evidence?

You are not being specific, evidence for what claim I made? That bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450 - yeah see below.

https://www.longdom.org/open-access/role-of-piperine-as-an-effective-bioenhancer-in-drug-absorption.pdf

 

[tubzy]

Epicatechin

Epicatechin | C15H14O6 | CID 72276 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

MW: 290.27

So the compound is feasible in a TD preparation and this is still kind of the USA so people can still make some choices. I suggest people choose what makes them happy and move on.

I'm cool with that

 

[nostrum420]

You are not being specific, evidence for what claim I made? That bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450 - yeah see below.

https://www.longdom.org/open-access/role-of-piperine-as-an-effective-bioenhancer-in-drug-absorption.pdf

They show a list of compounds they tested, none of which were epicatechin, and only 4 of the 23 were tested on humans. I feel like maybe your standards on valid evidence are not principled but rather you shift said standards as it suits your argument.

 

[tubzy]

They show a list of compounds they tested, none of which were epicatechin, and only 4 of the 23 were tested on humans. I feel like maybe your standards on valid evidence are not principled but rather you shift said standards as it suits your argument.

Why do you keep ignoring my requests to cite specifically where I have claimed that in this thread. I stated multiple times that bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450 which I provided evidence for. We know that standard epicatechin absorbs orally and you already conceded that you don't have the data to prove that transdermal is more effective so arguing over bioperine is irrelevant.

 

[nostrum420]

Why do you keep ignoring my requests to cite specifically where I have claimed that in this thread. I stated multiple times that bioperine inhibits cytochrome P450 which I provided evidence for. We know that standard epicatechin absorbs orally and you already conceded that you don't have the data to prove that transdermal is more effective so arguing over bioperine is irrelevant.

You accept animal models when they support your argument but criticize them when they don't? Because you used the fact that data I presented was based on in vitro and in vivo animal models to disparage said data, soooo...?

But you don't want to talk about that now because it shows you shift your principles to suit your argument.

 

[tubzy]

You accept animal models when they support your argument but criticize them when they don't? Because you used the fact that data I presented was based on in vitro and in vivo animal models to disparage said data, soooo...?

But you don't want to talk about that now because it shows you shift your principles to suit your argument.

I gave a you human study in the curcumin/bioperine link. I have not once claimed anywhere in this thread that I have a bioperine + epicatechin human study. Bioperine came into the discussion much later as the original argument is plain oral epicatechin versus transdermal epicatechin. I said bioperine inhibits CYP450 which is part of first pass metabolism and anything you ingest orally goes through this process so there is a good chance epicatechin's uptake could possibly increase.

What exactly am I suiting my argument for lol? If anyone has an agenda - it is you. You have a monetary interest in transdermals as you admitted you in this thread that you do this for a living and develop carriers for companies. So obviously it makes sense why you are going so far to try and defend this. Maybe you just developed the carrier solution for this product?

 

[nostrum420]

I gave a you human study in the curcumin/bioperine link. I have not once claimed anywhere in this thread that I have a bioperine + epicatechin human study. Bioperine came into the discussion much later as the original argument is plain oral epicatechin versus transdermal epicatechin. I said bioperine inhibits CYP450 which is part of first pass metabolism and anything you ingest orally goes through this process so there is a good chance epicatechin's uptake could possibly increase.

What exactly am I suiting my argument for lol? If anyone has an agenda - it is you. You have a monetary interest in transdermals as you admitted you in this thread that you do this for a living and develop carriers for companies. So obviously it makes sense why you are going so far to try and defend this. Maybe you just developed the carrier solution for this product?

Bioperine is a way to get around first pass metabolism issues which has been shown through primarily animal research to be effective with many things. So, you've tacitly posited that you're confident in the combination with epicatechin is effective.

TD formulations are a way to to get around first pass metabolism issues which has been shown through primarily animal research to be effective with many things. Here, by continually insisting on a specific example that shows the efficacy of TD epicatechin you seem to be suggesting epicatechin may be an exception to this trend.

Why are you looking for a specific study to confirm the trend for TDs but not for bioperine?

With so many other examples of TDs being an effective way of bypassing the first pass metabolism issues we've discussed, what evidence is there to suggest epicatechin is an exception?

 

[sns8778]

Epicatechin

Epicatechin | C15H14O6 | CID 72276 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.

pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

MW: 290.27

So the compound is feasible in a TD preparation and this is still kind of the USA so people can still make some choices. I suggest people choose what makes them happy and move on.

I haven't seen anywhere in the thread where he said that Epicatechin wasn't feasible as a TD; he's even said he didn't have anything against the product itself, but that he didn't agree that a TD form was necessarily better than an oral form or that it was 'needed'.

I posted earlier in this thread trying to keep the peace and say that TD Epicatechin is an option for people that prefer TD's and may be a great option for people if they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin supplements. But that oral Epicatechin supplements work great for a lot of people and for those people that prefer orals and respond well to it, there's no reason for them to think that they 'need' to use a TD form. I thought that was a very honest, truthful, and simple perspective but I got attacked over that.

I think that this whole argument could have been avoided if the product had been presented as a TD form of Epicatechin for those that like TD's better or find that they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin. Instead, a lot of it has come off as attacking and bashing oral Epicatechin.

I believe in being nice and respectful to everyone here, including other company owners. I help a lot of different companies in different capacities and I've never been one to try to promote my own products by bashing other people's products or ingredients.

Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex, Follidrone, Epilogue, and more have been products that have been well liked by many people on here for years. Introducing a TD form for TD fans isn't a bad thing at all - but I don't think it needed to be done in a way to attack the ingredient itself and therefore the companies that have made and offered the oral form for years.

Threads on here may irritate me sometimes but this is the first one that's actually pissed me off in a long time and its completely changed my perspective on how I view some things here.

Here are some of the things I posted in the thread earlier to try to keep the peace and be professional by pointing out that both oral epicatechin and td epicatechin can be great options and that it didn't need to be an either or/bash fest type of thing against either:


We've had years of great feedback on Epi-Plex and Apex has had good feedback on their TD epicatechin. I think that both are good products and it really comes down to preference on whether you like capsules or TD better.

I personally think that most people absorb Epicatechin fine orally, or at least that the dose we use in Epi-Plex makes up for any absorption issues and I base this on years worth of great feedback and repeat customers.

The answer may even come down to the individual and how well your body absorbs Epicatechin.
If you respond to it well orally, no need for a TD.
If you don't absorb it/respond well to it orally, try a TD. (or if you just prefer TD's).

I think that Epicatechin is a great product both ways and that rather than people taking an either/or stance, its best to find out which way works best for them and which way they personally like the best

I think that this whole argument could have been avoided if the product had been presented as a TD form of Epicatechin for those that like TD's better or find that they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin instead of it coming off as attacking and bashing towards oral Epicatechin.

Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex, Follidrone, Epilogue, and more have been products that have been well liked by many people on here for years. Introducing a TD form for TD fans isn't a bad thing at all - but I don't think it needed to be done in a way to attack the ingredient itself and therefore the companies that have made and offered the oral form for years.

I know that I personally respond very well to Epi-Plex and it's been a part of my daily supplement regimen for a long time. And we have a lot of very satisfied customers and repeat sales on it that feel the same.

 

[nostrum420]

I haven't seen anywhere in the thread where he said that Epicatechin wasn't feasible as a TD; he's even said he didn't have anything against the product itself, but that he didn't agree that a TD form was necessarily better than an oral form or that it was 'needed'.

I posted earlier in this thread trying to keep the peace and say that TD Epicatechin is an option for people that prefer TD's and may be a great option for people if they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin supplements. But that oral Epicatechin supplements work great for a lot of people and for those people that prefer orals and respond well to it, there's no reason for them to think that they 'need' to use a TD form. I thought that was a very honest, truthful, and simple perspective but I got attacked over that.

I think that this whole argument could have been avoided if the product had been presented as a TD form of Epicatechin for those that like TD's better or find that they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin. Instead, a lot of it has come off as attacking and bashing oral Epicatechin.

I believe in being nice and respectful to everyone here, including other company owners. I help a lot of different companies in different capacities and I've never been one to try to promote my own products by bashing other people's products or ingredients.

Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex, Follidrone, Epilogue, and more have been products that have been well liked by many people on here for years. Introducing a TD form for TD fans isn't a bad thing at all - but I don't think it needed to be done in a way to attack the ingredient itself and therefore the companies that have made and offered the oral form for years.

Threads on here may irritate me sometimes but this is the first one that's actually pissed me off in a long time and its completely changed my perspective on how I view some things here.

Here are some of the things I posted in the thread earlier to try to keep the peace and be professional by pointing out that both oral epicatechin and td epicatechin can be great options and that it didn't need to be an either or/bash fest type of thing against either:


We've had years of great feedback on Epi-Plex and Apex has had good feedback on their TD epicatechin. I think that both are good products and it really comes down to preference on whether you like capsules or TD better.

I personally think that most people absorb Epicatechin fine orally, or at least that the dose we use in Epi-Plex makes up for any absorption issues and I base this on years worth of great feedback and repeat customers.

The answer may even come down to the individual and how well your body absorbs Epicatechin.
If you respond to it well orally, no need for a TD.
If you don't absorb it/respond well to it orally, try a TD. (or if you just prefer TD's).

I think that Epicatechin is a great product both ways and that rather than people taking an either/or stance, its best to find out which way works best for them and which way they personally like the best

I think that this whole argument could have been avoided if the product had been presented as a TD form of Epicatechin for those that like TD's better or find that they don't respond well to oral Epicatechin instead of it coming off as attacking and bashing towards oral Epicatechin.

Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex, Follidrone, Epilogue, and more have been products that have been well liked by many people on here for years. Introducing a TD form for TD fans isn't a bad thing at all - but I don't think it needed to be done in a way to attack the ingredient itself and therefore the companies that have made and offered the oral form for years.

I know that I personally respond very well to Epi-Plex and it's been a part of my daily supplement regimen for a long time. And we have a lot of very satisfied customers and repeat sales on it that feel the same.

Pointing out that there are issues with oral bioavailability is no more an attack on the ingredient than adding bioperine is.

I never bashed any specific product, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to paint me as attacking you or your products. I even said you overcame the issues with oral bioavailability which you, yourself seemed to acknowledge.

 

[sns8778]

Not valid as it's not epicatechin in the study and I will accept nothing less than 100% specific clinical research. lol

This thread has gotten hard to read with all the arguing but I want to make sure you saw that he had repeated himself over and over that there hadn't been a study to his knowledge on Bioperine and Epicatechin.

He said that Bioperine inhibits CYP450 so that there's a good chance that Epicatechin's uptake could possibly be increased as a result of it. The study link that he linked to happened to be for Curcumin as that's been one of the main ingredients that Bioperine has traditionally been studied with but the point he was trying to make was that it pertained to the method of action, not the ingredient.

There is not a study that specifically says that Bioperine enhances the effects of Epicatechin.

Nor is there a study that says that making it into a TD will either.

Both are theories, and I think that both ways will work for most people.

That's why I think that this whole thing should have been avoided by not making statements that one way was better than the other.

 

[nostrum420]

This thread has gotten hard to read with all the arguing but I want to make sure you saw that he had repeated himself over and over that there hadn't been a study to his knowledge on Bioperine and Epicatechin.

He said that Bioperine inhibits CYP450 so that there's a good chance that Epicatechin's uptake could possibly be increased as a result of it. The study link that he linked to happened to be for Curcumin as that's been one of the main ingredients that Bioperine has traditionally been studied with but the point he was trying to make was that it pertained to the method of action, not the ingredient.

There is not a study that specifically says that Bioperine enhances the effects of Epicatechin.

Nor is there a study that says that making it into a TD will either.

Both are theories, and I think that both ways will work for most people.

That's why I think that this whole thing should have been avoided by not making statements that one way was better than the other.

It just seemed like TDs were being held to one standard whereas adding bioperine wasn't being held to the same level of scrutiny. It has been my position all along that bioperine probably does help, I've just been wondering why the same benefit of the doubt didn't seem to be extended to TD formulations.

I'm not one to shy away from a debate but I apologize if I made anyone uncomfortable or upset.

 

[sns8778]

Pointing out that there are issues with oral bioavailability is no more an attack on the ingredient than adding bioperine is.

I never bashed any specific product, I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to paint me as attacking you or your products. I even said you overcame the issues with oral bioavailability which you, yourself seemed to acknowledge.

I do appreciate your acknowledging that we overcame the absorption issues with Epicatechin with Epi-Plex.

I just wish that could have been acknowledged sooner so that things wouldn't have been perceived otherwise.

The way your approach with this product came off to me was that you tried to promote yours by bashing Epicatechin and its oral bioavailability as a way to market your product. Basically, to make people think that it didn't or wouldn't work by anyone else but you.

Whereas the truth with oral bioavailability issues is that there may be a number of ways to overcome them. In the case of Epicatechin, I think that both high dose + Bioperine like Epi-Plex and a TD version work well. And I think its great that both are available on the market, that way customers have options.

One thing about absorption enhancement I want to point out for people reading, and I think we both agree on this if I'm not mistaken - is that unfortunately some companies do use absorption enhancement as a sales pitch and don't actually do anything to increase absorption but throw ingredients on the label to make it appear that they are for sales pitch purposes.

And hey, maybe you truly didn't mean this stuff the way it came off, but that's how I took it and based on the # of pm's I've gotten about it, its safe to say that some others have as well. If you really didn't mean it that way, cool - we all can come off wrong sometimes.

I hope that we can put this issue to rest now and agree that both Epi-Plex (high dose Epicatechin + Bioperine) and TD Epicatechin are both great product options and that we can both have enjoyable and productive weeks.

 

[nostrum420]

I do appreciate your acknowledging that we overcame the absorption issues with Epicatechin with Epi-Plex.

I just wish that could have been acknowledged sooner so that things wouldn't have been perceived otherwise.

The way your approach with this product came off to me was that you tried to promote yours by bashing Epicatechin and its oral bioavailability as a way to market your product. Basically, to make people think that it didn't or wouldn't work by anyone else but you.

Whereas the truth with oral bioavailability issues is that there may be a number of ways to overcome them. In the case of Epicatechin, I think that both high dose + Bioperine like Epi-Plex and a TD version work well. And I think its great that both are available on the market, that way customers have options.

One thing about absorption enhancement I want to point out for people reading, and I think we both agree on this if I'm not mistaken - is that unfortunately some companies do use absorption enhancement as a sales pitch and don't actually do anything to increase absorption but throw ingredients on the label to make it appear that they are for sales pitch purposes.

And hey, maybe you truly didn't mean this stuff the way it came off, but that's how I took it and based on the # of pm's I've gotten about it, its safe to say that some others have as well. If you really didn't mean it that way, cool - we all can come off wrong sometimes.

I hope that we can put this issue to rest now and agree that both Epi-Plex (high dose Epicatechin + Bioperine) and TD Epicatechin are both great product options and that we can both have enjoyable and productive weeks.

I've gotten one or two PMs as well. It seems there are strong feelings on both sides. A few people said they thought you chiming in as soon as the first few customers had said something positive about Epichaos with a post that while it did have some cordial language, it would be easy for many to sum up as "Epichaos is unnecessary." was an attack on me. Others seemed to think you've been admonishing me on forum etiquette even though you're not officially in a position to do so. I've been insisting it's fine and that I'm approaching it as a spirited debate and requesting no one dog pile on you or Tubzy.

But I digress, of course I agree that providing a solid oral dose with a proven absorption enhancement agent is a good strategy to overcome oral bioavailability issues just as I think a TD formulation is. So, yes, we can agree on that much for sure.

 

[sns8778]

I've gotten one or two PMs as well. It seems there are strong feelings on both sides. A few people said they thought you chiming in as soon as the first few customers had said something positive about Epichaos with a post that while it did have some cordial language, it would be easy for many to sum up as "Epichaos is unnecessary." was an attack on me. Others seemed to think you've been admonishing me on forum etiquette even though you're not officially in a position to do so. I've been insisting it's fine and that I'm approaching it as a spirited debate and requesting no one dog pile on you or Tubzy.

But I digress, of course I agree that providing a solid oral dose with a proven absorption enhancement agent is a good strategy to overcome oral bioavailability issues just as I think a TD formulation is. So, yes, we can agree on that much for sure.

My stance for the entire thread has been that Epi-Plex (oral Epicatechin + Bioperine) and TD Epicatechin are both good products and that even if Epicatechin doesn't 'need' to be in TD form, that doesn't make it a bad thing that there is a TD version available - because even if its not any better, it shouldn't be any worse either so worst case it would just come down to preference between oral vs. TD.

If I were trying to attack you, I wouldn't have made it a point to be professional and make sure that I continued to mention that even if TD isn't necessarily 'needed', it isn't a bad thing either and its great for people to have an option that prefer TD's and I even mentioned that it may be a good option for people if they find they don't respond well to oral epicatechin.

Anyway, hopefully all is well now.

 

[nostrum420]

My stance for the entire thread has been that Epi-Plex (oral Epicatechin + Bioperine) and TD Epicatechin are both good products and that even if Epicatechin doesn't 'need' to be in TD form, that doesn't make it a bad thing that there is a TD version available - because even if its not any better, it shouldn't be any worse either so worst case it would just come down to preference between oral vs. TD.

If I were trying to attack you, I wouldn't have made it a point to be professional and make sure that I continued to mention that even if TD isn't necessarily 'needed', it isn't a bad thing either and its great for people to have an option that prefer TD's and I even mentioned that it may be a good option for people if they find they don't respond well to oral epicatechin.

Anyway, hopefully all is well now.

That's fair and that's why I asked anyone who seemed to be upset by it to just let me continue to talk it out with you rather than jumping in with any harsh words.

I'm glad we could come to an agreement.

 

[Iwilleattuna]

@nostrum420 @sns8778 Both forms work for me!

 

[Brianmc83]

Agreed I use both epiplex and epichaos simultaneously works great!

 

[Rocket3015]

I posted the MW link simply as a way to show that TD is ONE viable way to deliver, not superior but simply viable.

I have never declared one way vs another as superior(the oral, epi-plex, currently sits on my counter and works great as we all know) and to me it's pretty clear tubzy has an axe to grind with td(regardless of whether or not he specifically declares it the guy has 100 posts since 2010 with half in here arguing over lask of specific proof on td epi) so I posted that to show it CAN work that way.

I am NOT choosing one side as this is not about sides and has more to do with me finding this guy really annoying, tubzy, and me breaking my own rule of not getting sucked into BS online where the only thing to gain is stress and irritation.

Steve, NOS I love you both, tubzy nice knowing you and thank you for re-inforcing my own rule and teaching me, hopefully, the last time I will need it, to ignore such distractions.

Have a great day everyone..................even you tubzy lol.

Words of Wisdom !!

 

[Kronic]

I need to try epi Plex, but with follidrone compared to epichaos there are effects in the TD that simply don't exist in the oral for me. still, I use both. so shut up and buy both

 

[tubzy]

I posted the MW link simply as a way to show that TD is ONE viable way to deliver, not superior but simply viable.

I have never declared one way vs another as superior(the oral, epi-plex, currently sits on my counter and works great as we all know) and to me it's pretty clear tubzy has an axe to grind with td(regardless of whether or not he specifically declares it the guy has 100 posts since 2010 with half in here arguing over lask of specific proof on td epi) so I posted that to show it CAN work that way.

I am NOT choosing one side as this is not about sides and has more to do with me finding this guy really annoying, tubzy, and me breaking my own rule of not getting sucked into BS online where the only thing to gain is stress and irritation.

Steve, NOS I love you both, tubzy nice knowing you and thank you for re-inforcing my own rule and teaching me, hopefully, the last time I will need it, to ignore such distractions.

Have a great day everyone..................even you tubzy lol.

Imagine walking into a GNC and having the rep present a product for you to purchase and claims this product works and says my buddy got huge on it. Then you as a consumer, question the rep about ingredients, dosage and delivery method. The rep gets frustrated because he doesn't have the data to show that it is superior so two other GNC reps walk over and say "Yeah, my buddy got huge on this also, just buy the fucking product it is not even a big investment bro". You as a consumer not once said the product didn't work but you just simply questioned its efficacy to determine if it is better than your existing product at home.

If no one is allowed to question the ingredients, dosage and delivery method of a product how is this forum any different than a GNC? How do you think the industry was pressured to change from proprietary blends - or was that just super annoying in your words?

You seem pretty emotional over an argument you weren't even involved in - maybe the internet is not the best place for you.

 

[slickwillie]

 

[tubzy]

Bioperine is a way to get around first pass metabolism issues which has been shown through primarily animal research to be effective with many things. So, you've tacitly posited that you're confident in the combination with epicatechin is effective.

TD formulations are a way to to get around first pass metabolism issues which has been shown through primarily animal research to be effective with many things. Here, by continually insisting on a specific example that shows the efficacy of TD epicatechin you seem to be suggesting epicatechin may be an exception to this trend.

Why are you looking for a specific study to confirm the trend for TDs but not for bioperine?

With so many other examples of TDs being an effective way of bypassing the first pass metabolism issues we've discussed, what evidence is there to suggest epicatechin is an exception?

I've explained all your questions already in post #61. I also gave you a human study of bioperine being effective in the curcumin study. If you continue to choose to ignore that I don't know what else to tell you at this point.

 

[tubzy]

View attachment 208221

Are you still mad that I never replied to your post asking me for hair loss advice?

In all seriousness though, I think I'm done arguing now and made my point Lol.

 

[dcoen21]

I would just like to stir the pot even more and add evomuse introduced epi first!

 

[sns8778]

I would just like to stir the pot even more and add evomuse introduced epi first!

I don't think anyone in this thread ever mentioned who was first to introduce Epicatechin.

I don't remember Evomuse claiming to be the first company to introduce it - if he did, I missed that. The first one I ever saw was by a small brand that I don't think even exists anymore and that I never saw mentioned here.

The irony is that Epicatechin as an ingredient was listed on raw material supplier lists for several years before I ever saw one anyone take a chance on it and commercially release one.

I remember having a discussion with a formulator at the time of another company about it as far back as 2014 on it.

I always thought it was funny how some people/companies claim to be the first to 'make' or 'create' ingredients that have been on raw material supply lists for years. The correct statement may be that they are the first company to take a chance on introducing them, but I guess that doesn't sound as cool haha.

 

[BCseacow83]

I don't think anyone in this thread ever mentioned who was first to introduce Epicatechin.

I don't remember Evomuse claiming to be the first company to introduce it - if he did, I missed that. The first one I ever saw was by a small brand that I don't think even exists anymore and that I never saw mentioned here.

The irony is that Epicatechin as an ingredient was listed on raw material supplier lists for several years before I ever saw one anyone take a chance on it and commercially release one.

I remember having a discussion with a formulator at the time of another company about it as far back as 2014 on it.

I always thought it was funny how some people/companies claim to be the first to 'make' or 'create' ingredients that have been on raw material supply lists for years. The correct statement may be that they are the first company to take a chance on introducing them, but I guess that doesn't sound as cool haha.

A general question for you: Why do raw material suppliers add an item to their list if there is no demand? I don't have the experience in this part of the industry you do but I always assumed people sort of came looking first and then the raws companies started to supply.

Follow up: How do the raw companies discover or come up with new releases? I know certain companies years ago would have you believe they had boots on the ground in the Amazon turning over every stone and interacting with every indigenous native culture in an effort to bring us the next big thing lol(I'm looking at you old USP Labs lol) Are they, raw suppliers, always adding new raws to the list? Thank you.

 

[sns8778]

A general question for you: Why do raw material suppliers add an item to their list if there is no demand? I don't have the experience in this part of the industry you do but I always assumed people sort of came looking first and then the raws companies started to supply.

Follow up: How do the raw companies discover or come up with new releases? I know certain companies years ago would have you believe they had boots on the ground in the Amazon turning over every stone and interacting with every indigenous native culture in an effort to bring us the next big thing lol(I'm looking at you old USP Labs lol) Are they, raw suppliers, always adding new raws to the list? Thank you.

This is the type of question that requires a very detailed answer. I'll do by best to answer it, but I'm honestly pretty burnt out and pissed off in general over some things in this thread and think I may be taking a break from here soon.


The legitimate raw material supply side of this industry is a huge multi-million dollar industry that is NOTHING like what a lot of companies in the sports nutrition side of things try to make believe that it is like.

As with any industry, there are small, medium size, and large suppliers.

I've seen some companies try to make it out like the people on the raw material supply side of this industry are inept or incompetent - but the truth is if that's the type of people they're dealing with, they need better suppliers.

Yes, there are definitely some very un-reputable and shady suppliers in this industry but in the age of GMP compliance and the FDA taking things very seriously, my best advice to anyone dealing with those would be to stop immediately.

The real legitimate raw material suppliers in this industry often have many intelligent employees and scientists or sometimes teams of scientists on staff. And a lot of them have a lot more capabilities than many company owners publicly give them credit for.

You often hear people talk about how they are custom making or custom synthesizing this or that - that may sound cool and fun but the reality is that most of the time they're really paying or working with someone at a raw material supplier to be doing this for them. And if they're not and they really are doing this themselves for production size runs - then its a good chance they are violating a number of FDA laws by doing so.

Now, with all that said, the people that many company owners really wind up talking to are brokers and sales people; not people directly at the factories and facilities. And there's nothing wrong with that - but its important to remember that just because sales rep XYZ isn't familiar with everything they offer doesn't mean the scientists and technical staff behind the scenes aren't.

Why do raw material suppliers add an item to their list if there is no demand?
- They are in business to make money and therefore they want to create demand for as many ingredients as possible.
- The more ingredients that they bring out or offer that are successful, the more money they make.
- Just because they put an ingredient on their product list doesn't mean they have stock on it right then if no one is ordering it. It may just mean that they have done test runs and know how to produce it in case anyone is interested.

How do the raw companies discover or come up with new releases?
- Many companies employ people that their role is to research and develop and find new ingredients or variations of existing ingredients.
- They do sometimes get ideas from people and companies that approach them with ideas.

I know certain companies years ago would have you believe they had boots on the ground in the Amazon turning over every stone and interacting with every indigenous native culture in an effort to bring us the next big thing.
- This is 100% false and is just advertising.
- Think about it this way - if companies were really finding new things like this, there wouldn't be any efficacy data or safety data on the ingredients themselves. Nor would there be any way to have a steady supply chain of them.

Are they, raw suppliers, always adding new raws to the list?
- Yes, the more items they make and offer, the more money that they make as well.
- That's why the whole Company XYZ has some super secret extract that no one else can get is not true - because raw materials suppliers are in business to make money and if they have or come up with a great ingredient - whether they come up with it themselves or whether they custom do it for someone, they will also sell it to other companies. Sometimes they do have the courtesy to not put it on their supply lists and will only sell it if they are asked for it, but sometimes they will just add it to their product list.
- The Company XYZ having a super secret extract is a marketing tool. I'm not saying its necessarily easy to be able to find everything a lot of this stuff, but its not impossible. Especially if you have the right contacts.
- A good example of this - right now I'm working with different suppliers on 3 different custom ingredients or forms of ingredients - and if they come to fruition, I wouldn't even begin to expect these companies not to offer them to other companies if asked bc they will have put time, money, and resources into making these things happen.


I hope this answers your questions. If you have anymore, I'm glad to answer them but please post them in the thread:

Tell Us What You Would Like to See From SNS & CEL (2021 Edition) - AnabolicMinds.com

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I don't want to continue discussing things like this in this one.

 

[BCseacow83]

This is the type of question that requires a very detailed answer. I'll do by best to answer it, but I'm honestly pretty burnt out

I don't want to continue discussing things like this in this one.

More than sufficiently answered, thank you. I know I personally value the peek behind the curtain you offer us on the workings of the supply/manufacturing side of the industry. As always I really appreciate your time, effort, and contributions!

 

[JKVol]

I know I'm arguing against Renew's payroll squad but I'm not even bashing the product.

This seems personal towards the people and has nothing to do with the product ITT.

 

[sns8778]

This seems personal towards the people and has nothing to do with the product ITT.

My impression was that it went from being a legit question to personal because he was, or at least felt attacked for asking it.

Personally, I wish this thread would just die.

 

[JKVol]

My impression was that it went from being a legit question to personal because he was, or at least felt attacked for asking it.

Personally, I wish this thread would just die.

Personally I’m a big fan of Apex and SNS. TD’s have their place but sometimes oral can be just as effective. I respond good to oral Epi but I can tell a difference when using Epichaos. Mostly in the mirror but that’s a big deal IMO.

 

[Renew1]

My impression was that it went from being a legit question to personal because he was, or at least felt attacked for asking it.

Personally, I wish this thread would just die.

You're not the only one.
WHOLE LOT of (not so) Passive Aggressive crap going on here!

 

[sns8778]

You're not the only one.
WHOLE LOT of (not so) Passive Aggressive crap going on here!

This is the first thread on here in a very long time that has actually pissed me off and completely changed my perspective towards some people on here.

The whole thing is pretty simple really and like I've said several times in the thread:

• Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex (high dose Epicatechin + Piperine/Bioperine) work great for most people.
• TD Epicatechin is a great option for people that prefer TD's and may be a good option if there are some people out there that don't respond well to oral Epicatechin (I say maybe bc some people just don't respond to certain ingredients; that's the case with anything).
• Bioperine (Piperine) is an effective method of increasing absorption of many different compounds via its effects on cytochrome P450. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of studies on this.
• TD's are also an effective method of increasing absorption of many compounds.

I try to stay out of things like this the best I can; and that's why I tried every time it came up if TD was 'needed' to specify that even though I didn't feel like it was 'needed', I still tried to point out that that didn't mean it was a bad thing and that it was great for people to have options. This is an old thread, and I looked back and on page 1, I had even replied to you on a post I made that I knew how it felt to have people attacking products so I was trying to make it clear in my posts that even if it wasn't 'needed', it was still wasn't a bad thing. I was trying to go out of my way to make sure that nothing I said was being taken as negative or disparaging towards TD Epicatechin; if I had known I was going to get accused of attacking it anyway, I just wouldn't have bothered to try to defend it at all. Hopefully all of that is resolved now.

I wish the thread would just die. That's why when asked a question earlier about another subject, I'd asked for any follow up questions to be made in another thread that I linked to bc I just want this one to stop.

 

[Renew1]

This is the first thread on here in a very long time that has actually pissed me off and completely changed my perspective towards some people on here.

The whole thing is pretty simple really and like I've said several times in the thread:

• Oral Epicatechin products like Epi-Plex (high dose Epicatechin + Piperine/Bioperine) work great for most people.
• TD Epicatechin is a great option for people that prefer TD's and may be a good option if there are some people out there that don't respond well to oral Epicatechin (I say maybe bc some people just don't respond to certain ingredients; that's the case with anything).
• Bioperine (Piperine) is an effective method of increasing absorption of many different compounds via its effects on cytochrome P450. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of studies on this.
• TD's are also an effective method of increasing absorption of many compounds.

I try to stay out of things like this the best I can; and that's why I tried every time it came up if TD was 'needed' to specify that even though I didn't feel like it was 'needed', I still tried to point out that that didn't mean it was a bad thing and that it was great for people to have options. This is an old thread, and I looked back and on page 1, I had even replied to you on a post I made that I knew how it felt to have people attacking products so I was trying to make it clear in my posts that even if it wasn't 'needed', it was still wasn't a bad thing. I was trying to go out of my way to make sure that nothing I said was being taken as negative or disparaging towards TD Epicatechin; if I had known I was going to get accused of attacking it anyway, I just wouldn't have bothered to try to defend it at all. Hopefully all of that is resolved now.

I wish the thread would just die. That's why when asked a question earlier about another subject, I'd asked for any follow up questions to be made in another thread that I linked to bc I just want this one to stop.

Well.... One thing we definitely agree on ...I wish this thread would go away.
I'm going to request that it does.
If you'd like to also make that request, it might help

 

[sns8778]

Well.... One thing we definitely agree on ...I wish this thread would go away.
I'm going to request that it does.
If you'd like to also make that request, it might help

I'd be more of a fan of it being locked than deleted - I just say that so it doesn't have to all be rehashed at any point again. (Basically not having the same arguments repeated). But that way also, if I'm not mistaken, locked threads can't be bumped for people to keep posting in them.

Last thing I think either of us wants is to have to do it all over again lol.

 

[Renew1]

Apparently we can't even agree on that one thing.