Oral Epicatechin vs TD

[Vitruvian Man]

Looking to run Ursa Major in the future, want to stack it with epi, has me looking at Epichaos.

I will prob buy and use regardless but just curious what has been your experience with oral vs TD epicat?

 

[ndiguy]

In for answers! Wanting to try ursa and epichaos together this spring.

 

[Afi140]

OL transdermal Epi was one of my favorite natty products back in the day. I enjoy oral a lot still but that td ep1c unleashed was

 

[LeanEngineer]

Personally I like oral epi just due to ease of dosage and I feel I get the same results.

 

[ndiguy]

Personally I like oral epi just due to ease of dosage and I feel I get the same results.

Which product specifically did you enjoy? Thanks in advance..

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

I ran Chaos and Pain Legendary a while back and had some definite positive effects. Looking forward to my Apex order showing up to give Epichaos a go!

 

[Darkhorse192]

Epichaos is badass

 

[sns8778]

I think that Epicatechin is a good ingredient whether it is oral or transdermal. I don't think that is something that needs to be used transdermally, but that doesn't mean that its bad to, just preference. Some ingredients I think need to be used in a TD to be more effective but I don't think Epicatechin is one of them.

The bigger issue is companies using legit raw materials and not prop blending them or trying to cut corners and play clever label games where they are trying to play off green tea as epicatechin.

That's why for Epi-Plex, we always went straight to the point - 300 mg. Epicatechin per capsule + 20 mg. Piperine.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Looking to run Ursa Major in the future, want to stack it with epi, has me looking at Epichaos.

I will prob buy and use regardless but just curious what has been your experience with oral vs TD epicat?

I love Follidrone and notice when I'm on it versus when I'm not taking it. When I'm on, my skin has this tight looking, clay hard look, and great vascularity. When I'm off, the look fades.i highly recommend giving both transdermal epi a try, and Follidrone a go.

 

[thebigt]

Looking to run Ursa Major in the future, want to stack it with epi, has me looking at Epichaos.

I will prob buy and use regardless but just curious what has been your experience with oral vs TD epicat?

i was very impressed with epichaos and helios. both products performed much better than the oral versions i have tried...i highly recommend both.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Which product specifically did you enjoy? Thanks in advance..

I've always had great results with Follidrone 2.0 by BLR. They are quality and have a lot of positive reviews.

 

[brundel]

While transdermal seems like a good idea it is unlikely that bioavailability will be increased much more than 50% to maybe 100%. This isnt saying much when oral bioavailability is low. This is why Follidrone uses multiple methods for increased bioavailability. We expect approx a 500-1000% increase in bioavailability using the bioavailability package in Follidrone.

Also doses in the transdermal are usually pretty lackluster. For example 50mg/ml with 30ml.
Even if bioavailability was increased 100% your still getting less than just plain old epicatechin at 200mg a day. Half in fact.
Also that I am aware of we have no data supporting epicatechin as a viable transdermal. Not everything works well as a transdermal. I think people get excited because it seems different but different isnt always better.

 

[Renew1]

It could be that all of the (MANY) guys reporting great feedback on Epichaos are just mistaken.
But that's EXTREMELY unlikely.

 

[sns8778]

It could be that all of the (MANY) guys reporting great feedback on Epichaos are just mistaken.
But that's EXTREMELY unlikely.

I don't doubt that many people report great feedback on Epichaos.
Just like plenty of people for many years have reported great feedback on Epi-Plex.

Epicatechin is a great ingredient so if quality raw materials are used, the feedback should be great on it.

Just in addressing the issue of whether it 'needs' to be taken transdermally, the answer is simply that it doesn't 'need' to be. That doesn't mean that it's bad if it is, its just not bad either if other companies, or consumers prefer to stick to capsules. Whereas some ingredients aren't good candidates for transdermals and other products would need to be in a transdermal to work, Epicatechin can be used either way. So it comes down to individual preference and response.

I can't speak for anyone else in the thread. I'm just further elaborating on my own post in the thread.

 

[Renew1]

I don't doubt that many people report great feedback on Epichaos.
Just like plenty of people for many years have reported great feedback on Epi-Plex.

Epicatechin is a great ingredient so if quality raw materials are used, the feedback should be great on it.

Just in addressing the issue of whether it 'needs' to be taken transdermally, the answer is simply that it doesn't 'need' to be. That doesn't mean that it's bad if it is, its just not bad either if other companies, or consumers prefer to stick to capsules. Whereas some ingredients aren't good candidates for transdermals and other products would need to be in a transdermal to work, Epicatechin can be used either way. So it comes down to individual preference and response.

I can't speak for anyone else in the thread. I'm just further elaborating on my own post in the thread.

I understand your position.
My comment just came about because TD was receiving a "short end of the stick" in this thread which was neither apt, nor reflected in real world results.

 

[Renew1]

I don't doubt that many people report great feedback on Epichaos.
Just like plenty of people for many years have reported great feedback on Epi-Plex.

Epicatechin is a great ingredient so if quality raw materials are used, the feedback should be great on it.

Just in addressing the issue of whether it 'needs' to be taken transdermally, the answer is simply that it doesn't 'need' to be. That doesn't mean that it's bad if it is, its just not bad either if other companies, or consumers prefer to stick to capsules. Whereas some ingredients aren't good candidates for transdermals and other products would need to be in a transdermal to work, Epicatechin can be used either way. So it comes down to individual preference and response.

I can't speak for anyone else in the thread. I'm just further elaborating on my own post in the thread.

BTW, I didn't mention any of your products (or reference them) in my comment, only Epichaos.
So I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond to my comment on Epichaos.

 

[sns8778]

BTW, I didn't mention any of your products (or reference them) in my comment, only Epichaos.
So I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond to my comment on Epichaos.

Simple, because I never speak badly about other people's products and wanted to make sure that you didn't think I was in my first post. I know how it can suck to see/feel like people are jumping on one of your products.

In my initial post in the thread, I didn't mention Epichaos. I posted on how Epicatechin itself can work well in a capsule or transdermally. Just that it wasn't an ingredient that actually 'needed' to be used in a transdermal, but that it wasn't a bad thing for it to be. If you think about context, if I wasn't being nice, I didn't have to clarify that part. Bc realistically from a strictly sales perspective, the more people beat up on it as a TD, the better it actually could be for me. But that's just not the way I am.

So my post to you was making sure that you didn't take anything I said as negative or disparaging.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Renew1]

Simple, because I never speak badly about other people's products and wanted to make sure that you didn't think I was in my first post. I know how it can suck to see/feel like people are jumping on one of your products.

In my initial post in the thread, I didn't mention Epichaos. I posted on how Epicatechin itself can work well in a capsule or transdermally. Just that it wasn't an ingredient that actually 'needed' to be used in a transdermal, but that it wasn't a bad thing for it to be. If you think about context, if I wasn't being nice, I didn't have to clarify that part. Bc realistically from a strictly sales perspective, the more people beat up on it as a TD, the better it actually could be for me. But that's just not the way I am.

So my post to you was making sure that you didn't take anything I said as negative or disparaging.

I hope that makes sense.

It does.
And I appreciate the response.
My initial comment wasn't directed at you or your comment at all.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[nostrum420]

There is some data to indicate that Epicatechin is quickly conjugated and excreted when consumed orally:

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

 

[ANABOLICWRWLF]

Epicatechin is a great ingredient so if quality raw materials are used, the feedback should be great on it.

This is the big takeaway here and both Apex and SNS have this front covered.

 

[tubzy]

BTW, I didn't mention any of your products (or reference them) in my comment, only Epichaos.
So I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond to my comment on Epichaos.

Do you have evidence supporting any benefit w/ TD in regards to epicatechin or just anecdotal reports only?

 

[Rocket3015]

Enjoying this info!

 

[nostrum420]

Do you have evidence supporting any benefit w/ TD in regards to epicatechin or just anecdotal reports only?

"EC in chocolate and cocoa was partly absorbed and was found to be present as a component of various conjugates in plasma, and these were rapidly excreted in urine."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10715760000301151

 

[slickwillie]

I am a long time consumer of oral epi products. I switched to Epichaos 3 months ago, and for me it’s one of the best supplements I’ve ever tried. With a calorie SURPLUS I have seen a drop in body fat and an increase in muscle size. For those folks interested in body composition I can’t recommend this product enough.

 

[Renew1]

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anabolicminds.com

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I am a long time consumer of oral epi products. I switched to Epichaos 3 months ago, and for me it’s one of the best supplements I’ve ever tried. With a calorie SURPLUS I have seen a drop in body fat and an increase in muscle size. For those folks interested in body composition I can’t recommend this product enough.

Yea, this stuff is one of the top tier natural supplements that modulates ones physique. One of the boards members is going to run 4 ml per day and I am looking forward to seeing if there is an upper limit in dosing v. effects. if 4 is great will 5 be epic? enquiring minds want to know.

 

[wfreiling]

Yea, this stuff is one of the top tier natural supplements that modulates ones physique. One of the boards members is going to run 4 ml per day and I am looking forward to seeing if there is an upper limit in dosing v. effects. if 4 is great will 5 be epic? enquiring minds want to know.

Im gonna give it 2 weeks and see if it continues to be worthwhile versus 2ml. I have enough to run this trial haha

 

[Rocket3015]

Interested in seeing the results !!

 

[Kronic]

Yea, this stuff is one of the top tier natural supplements that modulates ones physique. One of the boards members is going to run 4 ml per day and I am looking forward to seeing if there is an upper limit in dosing v. effects. if 4 is great will 5 be epic? enquiring minds want to know.

4 is nice i guess but annoying to apply. I think 2ml once a day plus the oral epica of your choice is better (follidrone or epiplex). Ive tried a lot of dosing with epichaos even doing over 6ml a day. I think doing too much epicatechin can dry your muscles out. Ive never heard anyone else say that so idk maybe its just me

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

4 is nice i guess but annoying to apply. I think 2ml once a day plus the oral epica of your choice is better (follidrone or epiplex). Ive tried a lot of dosing with epichaos even doing over 6ml a day. I think doing too much epicatechin can dry your muscles out. Ive never heard anyone else say that so idk maybe its just me

i do two to three ml per servings .. sometimes 2-3 times per day. not with epi solo though. i'm talking many things APEX.

 

[slickwillie]

Im gonna give it 2 weeks and see if it continues to be worthwhile versus 2ml. I have enough to run this trial haha

I get great results with 2ml, applied after showering each morning.

 

[Kronic]

i do two to three ml per servings .. sometimes 2-3 times per day. not with epi solo though. i'm talking many things APEX.

I quit oral epicatechin for a while and did something similar. ended up liking oral+td stack better. plus follidrone has quercetin niacin crystals. do you live in a desert? it takes me like an hour in front of a fan to dry in virginia.

 

[tubzy]

"EC in chocolate and cocoa was partly absorbed and was found to be present as a component of various conjugates in plasma, and these were rapidly excreted in urine."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10715760000301151

Unless I'm missing it, what does this study have to do with the bioavailability of transdermal absorption regarding epicatechin? Looks like this study is just referencing EC in terms of oral bioavailability from chocolate/cocoa and also not in an isolate form, no?

When a whole food is consumed this can alter absorption bioavailability versus a supplemented isolated compound as well.

Sci-Hub | Bioavailability of (-)-epicatechin upon intake of chocolate and cocoa in human volunteers. Free Radical Research, 33(5), 635–641 | 10.1080/10715760000301151

 

[nostrum420]

Unless I'm missing it, what does this study have to do with the bioavailability of transdermal absorption regarding epicatechin? Looks like this study is just referencing EC in terms of oral bioavailability from chocolate/cocoa and also not in an isolate form, no?

When a whole food is consumed this can alter absorption bioavailability versus a supplemented isolated compound as well.

Sci-Hub | Bioavailability of (-)-epicatechin upon intake of chocolate and cocoa in human volunteers. Free Radical Research, 33(5), 635–641 | 10.1080/10715760000301151

It shows that epicatechin is conjugated in the gut and quickly excreted when consumed orally. I'd assume that if you took it with no other food molecules to get between the epicatechin and the sulfase and glucuronidase enzymes, you'd see even more conjugated material.

Being that TDs do not go through the gut, the active ingredients delivered from a TD application are not liable to being conjugated before entering the bloodstream. This way, you get unconjugated Epicatechin into the bloodstream and it takes much longer to be conjugated and excreted.

 

[scump]

It shows that epicatechin is conjugated in the gut and quickly excreted when consumed orally. I'd assume that if you took it with no other food molecules to get between the epicatechin and the sulfase and glucuronidase enzymes, you'd see even more conjugated material.

Being that TDs do not go through the gut, the active ingredients delivered from a TD application are not liable to being conjugated before entering the bloodstream. This way, you get unconjugated Epicatechin into the bloodstream and it takes much longer to be conjugated and excreted.

But you failed to actually answer the original question and throwing in an assumption is worth nothing at all.

proving there is absorption issues in the gut does not prove it works better transdermally, which is what i believe the original question was.

So I'm guessing the response is that no, there is no evidence to support TD other than anecdotally? Unless there is actual evidence which would be really interesting to see.

I love epi but am not a huge fan of TD supps but if there is overwhelming evidence may have to give the TD version a crack

 

[slickwillie]

But you failed to actually answer the original question and throwing in an assumption is worth nothing at all.

proving there is absorption issues in the gut does not prove it works better transdermally, which is what i believe the original question was.

So I'm guessing the response is that no, there is no evidence to support TD other than anecdotally? Unless there is actual evidence which would be really interesting to see.

I love epi but am not a huge fan of TD supps but if there is overwhelming evidence may have to give the TD version a crack

So you have never tried a TD version of epi?

 

[slickwillie]

But you failed to actually answer the original question and throwing in an assumption is worth nothing at all.

proving there is absorption issues in the gut does not prove it works better transdermally, which is what i believe the original question was.

So I'm guessing the response is that no, there is no evidence to support TD other than anecdotally? Unless there is actual evidence which would be really interesting to see.

I love epi but am not a huge fan of TD supps but if there is overwhelming evidence may have to give the TD version a crack

So you have never tried a TD version of epi?

 

[nostrum420]

But you failed to actually answer the original question and throwing in an assumption is worth nothing at all.

proving there is absorption issues in the gut does not prove it works better transdermally, which is what i believe the original question was.

So I'm guessing the response is that no, there is no evidence to support TD other than anecdotally? Unless there is actual evidence which would be really interesting to see.

I love epi but am not a huge fan of TD supps but if there is overwhelming evidence may have to give the TD version a crack

I did *answer* the question; I presented evidence, whether or not you feel that it qualifies as proof is up to you. An anecdote would be "I've tried both and I got better results with TD." The evidence I presented was not "anecdotal." Like how you said "I'm not a huge fan of TD supps." That's an anecdote about your experiences with TDs.

There's an overwhelming body of evidence showing that when compounds are highly liable to conjugation in the gut, TD administration is better. This is the same reason Testosterone is given as a TD or inj. but not as an oral medication. Do you have some evidence that suggests Epicatechin would be an exception? Or are you throwing in assumptions of your own?

 

[sns8778]

I love epi but am not a huge fan of TD supps but if there is overwhelming evidence may have to give the TD version a crack

I'm not attempting to reply to your total comment - that convo is between you and him.

But to answer if there is overwhelming evidence as to if TD Epicatechin is better than oral Epicatechin, the answer is no, there is zero actual evidence that it would be better than oral Epicatechin. (I'm not addressing theories bc those are just what they are - theories, not evidence).

We've had years of great feedback on Epi-Plex and Apex has had good feedback on their TD epicatechin. I think that both are good products and it really comes down to preference on whether you like capsules or TD better.

I personally think that most people absorb Epicatechin fine orally, or at least that the dose we use in Epi-Plex makes up for any absorption issues and I base this on years worth of great feedback and repeat customers.

The answer may even come down to the individual and how well your body absorbs Epicatechin.
If you respond to it well orally, no need for a TD.
If you don't absorb it/respond well to it orally, try a TD. (or if you just prefer TD's).

I respond great to oral Epicatechin. I personally did try it in a TD form probably a year and a half ago (not Apex's) and I didn't feel that it worked any better - but I wouldn't expect it to because I respond well to it orally. I'm just sharing that as an example of what I said above that it may depend on the individual.

Keep in mind that everything I'm saying relates to effectively dosed products. We use 300 mg. per capsule of Epicatechin in Epi-Plex + 20 mg. Piperine for increased absorption x 2 caps per day.

There are some brands that under-dose their Epicatechin products and include it at 1/2 to 1/4 of what I regard the effective dosages to be - so I don't regard those products not doing what they're supposed to as a bad reflection on the ingredient itself, they just are trying to save money by not giving you enough of it.

I think that Epicatechin is a great product both ways and that rather than people taking an either/or stance, its best to find out which way works best for them and which way they personally like the best

 

[slickwillie]

I took Epiplex for a period of 16 consecutive months, so I was reasonably satisfied with it. I had never tried a transdermal before, but was always curious about it. But I resisted because it is easier/faster to simply pop some capsules in your mouth. But Epichaos works for me, and applying it each day is now just part of my routine. I don’t need to see the results from some study about the absorption of a transdermal; I see the results in the mirror.

 

[Rocket3015]

Quality products do make a difference!

 

[nostrum420]

But to answer if there is overwhelming evidence as to if TD Epicatechin is better than oral Epicatechin, the answer is no, there is zero actual evidence that it would be better than oral Epicatechin. (I'm not addressing theories bc those are just what they are - theories, not evidence).

I'm sorry, this is just not accurate. First of all a theory is something like the the "theory" of gravity. I did present "evidence" to support my thesis. Just because the evidence isn't from a study that set out specifically to answer the question at hand doesn't mean it's not supporting evidence. It may not be "proof" but it is evidence.

Additionally, in your own comments, you mentioned that Epicatechin should be administered at higher dosages and with bioperine for oral use.

 

[sns8778]

I'm sorry, this is just not accurate. First of all a theory is something like the the "theory" of gravity. I did present "evidence" to support my thesis. Just because the evidence isn't from a study that set out specifically to answer the question at hand doesn't mean it's not supporting evidence. It may not be "proof" but it is evidence.

Additionally, in your own comments, you mentioned that Epicatechin should be administered at higher dosages and with bioperine for oral use.

I'm not going to argue with you over the subject. I believe that my first comment in my post mentioned I wasn't trying to get into you two's argument, I was just speaking on Epicatechin.

I presented my post in a way to be non-argumentative and to make sure not to put down your product.

I guess we view certain words as having a different meaning.

I view the word 'theory' as to whether something will work in a certain form (whether it means transdermal, phytosomal, liposomal, etc.) as thinking that it will but not having the factual supporting evidence to back it up.

I view the word 'evidence' as having factual evidence that it will work better in a certain form (whether it means transdermal, phytosomal, liposomal, etc.) as having actual proof to back that theory up.

So it seems like our issue here may be semantics.

Not sure why you feel the need to point out what i said about Epicatechin needed to be dosed at higher doses orally to be effective as a bad thing. I've spoke about that since day one that I have an issue with many companies proprietary blending it and under-dosing it and how that reflects negatively on the ingredient when its not the ingredients fault. That comment applies to probably 50%+ of products in the sports side of the industry. And sometimes the key to overcoming absorption of anything is just simply take enough of it to offset it.

I don't go around promoting our products by putting down anyone else's. That's why I went out of my way in my post to say that both were good products and that for some people it comes down to personal preference or personal choice between oral's or TD's.

So I hope we can agree to let this one go and people make their own choice on which is more convenient for them and which form they prefer between TD's and orals as I'm pretty certain we both have better things to do than argue about this; especially being that I went out of my way to compliment your product in order to try not to argue.

 

[nostrum420]

I'm not going to argue with you over the subject. I believe that my first comment in my post mentioned I wasn't trying to get into you two's argument, I was just speaking on Epicatechin.

I presented my post in a way to be non-argumentative and to make sure not to put down your product.

I guess we view certain words as having a different meaning.

I view the word 'theory' as to whether something will work in a certain form (whether it means transdermal, phytosomal, liposomal, etc.) as thinking that it will but not having the factual supporting evidence to back it up.

I view the word 'evidence' as having factual evidence that it will work better in a certain form (whether it means transdermal, phytosomal, liposomal, etc.) as having actual proof to back that theory up.

So it seems like our issue here may be semantics.

Not sure why you feel the need to point out what i said about Epicatechin needed to be dosed at higher doses orally to be effective as a bad thing. I've spoke about that since day one that I have an issue with many companies proprietary blending it and under-dosing it and how that reflects negatively on the ingredient when its not the ingredients fault. That comment applies to probably 50%+ of products in the sports side of the industry. And sometimes the key to overcoming absorption of anything is just simply take enough of it to offset it.

I don't go around promoting our products by putting down anyone else's. That's why I went out of my way in my post to say that both were good products and that for some people it comes down to personal preference or personal choice between oral's or TD's.

So I hope we can agree to let this one go and people make their own choice on which is more convenient for them and which form they prefer between TD's and orals as I'm pretty certain we both have better things to do than argue about this; especially being that I went out of my way to compliment your product in order to try not to argue.

I never attacked your product either. The topic at hand was oral vs TD bioavailability. Your statement implied I had not presented evidence. I have. I'm using the same line of reasoning that you are when you add bioperine. In general, bioperine enhances the oral availability of compounds typically conjugated in the gut. Is there a study showing that this specifically works with epicatechin? Not that I can find but I would still assume that since the mechanisms are the same, the pattern will hold true.

 

[sns8778]

I never attacked your product either. The topic at hand was oral vs TD bioavailability. Your statement implied I had not presented evidence. I have. I'm using the same line of reasoning that you are when you add bioperine. In general, bioperine enhances the oral availability of compounds typically conjugated in the gut. Is there a study showing that this specifically works with epicatechin? Not that I can find but I would still assume that since the mechanisms are the same, the pattern will hold true.

I really think that you're missing am important point in this - and that was that I was trying to defend you.
(And if I'd known it would turn into this, I wouldn't have; I would have just let it go).

I didn't see your post; it looks like we replied at basically the same time; if I had seen that you were replying yourself, I wouldn't have replied to begin with.

My post was meant to show that:

• While there is no actual evidence (my word, you interpret it differently) that TD would be better, it shouldn't be worse either if a high enough dose is used.. So it would really make it a matter of oral vs. TD preference.
• And that rather than people arguing over which type is better, that since there is no research on TD Epicatechin that I'm aware of, instead of arguing over which type is better, there's a good chance that it may come down to the individual and whether they respond well to it orally or not. And that for people that respond well orally, TD wouldn't be needed but could be used if that was their preference.

I then went on to address something that I think we both agree on - I specified that my post was related to products that were dosed adequately and that some companies under dose the crap out of stuff and then some people take that as reflecting badly on the ingredient when its really just that company xyz wasn't using enough to begin with.

I hope all that makes sense.

 

[nostrum420]

I really think that you're missing am important point in this - and that was that I was trying to defend you.
(And if I'd known it would turn into this, I wouldn't have; I would have just let it go).

I didn't see your post; it looks like we replied at basically the same time; if I had seen that you were replying yourself, I wouldn't have replied to begin with.

My post was meant to show that:

• While there is no actual evidence (my word, you interpret it differently) that TD would be better, it shouldn't be worse either if a high enough dose is used.. So it would really make it a matter of oral vs. TD preference.
• And that rather than people arguing over which type is better, that since there is no research on TD Epicatechin that I'm aware of, instead of arguing over which type is better, there's a good chance that it may come down to the individual and whether they respond well to it orally or not. And that for people that respond well orally, TD wouldn't be needed but could be used if that was their preference.

I then went on to address something that I think we both agree on - I specified that my post was related to products that were dosed adequately and that some companies under dose the crap out of stuff and then some people take that as reflecting badly on the ingredient when its really just that company xyz wasn't using enough to begin with.

I hope all that makes sense.

I think you're conflating "evidence" and "proof" but rather than debating semantics too much further, I will say I agree that there are ways to overcome oral bioavailability issues in an oral product while keeping it an orally administered format and I certainly agree that sketchy underdosed products suck.

 

[tubzy]

I did *answer* the question; I presented evidence, whether or not you feel that it qualifies as proof is up to you. An anecdote would be "I've tried both and I got better results with TD." The evidence I presented was not "anecdotal." Like how you said "I'm not a huge fan of TD supps." That's an anecdote about your experiences with TDs.

There's an overwhelming body of evidence showing that when compounds are highly liable to conjugation in the gut, TD administration is better. This is the same reason Testosterone is given as a TD or inj. but not as an oral medication. Do you have some evidence that suggests Epicatechin would be an exception? Or are you throwing in assumptions of your own?

You didn't technically provide direct evidence, respectfully. You provided speculation based on another oral study by using terms like "I assume" which is totally fine for representing your opinion but I was looking for a direct study that shows epicatechin absorbs through the skin. I don't want to be rubbing a transdermal with anti androgenic essential oils into my skin on a daily basis unless there is some significant benefit over oral epicatechin w/ piperine.

I understand the concept of compounds being able to absorb through the skin but there are a ton of variables at play like vehicle, molecular weight (Daltons) and half life.

For example, you could can dissolve epicatechin in DMSO and I'm sure some of it would definitely make it into the bloodstream since DMSO is so potent as a vehicle. However, that doesn't make it more effective unless possibly going for a more local approach in a specific area of the body/skin.

Lastly, TD is not always better in a generic term unless you just referring to hepatoxicity purposes. I guess it depends on what you define as better. There are different enzymes in the liver versus on the surface of the skin that can metabolize the compounds differently and also produce different downstream metabolites so it's not just good versus bad.

 

[slickwillie]

You didn't technically provide direct evidence, respectfully. You provided speculation based on another oral study by using terms like "I assume" which is totally fine for representing your opinion but I was looking for a direct study that shows epicatechin absorbs through the skin. I don't want to be rubbing a transdermal with anti androgenic essential oils into my skin on a daily basis unless there is some significant benefit over oral epicatechin w/ piperine.

I understand the concept of compounds being able to absorb through the skin but there are a ton of variables at play like vehicle, molecular weight (Daltons) and half life.

For example, you could can dissolve epicatechin in DMSO and I'm sure some of it would definitely make it into the bloodstream since DMSO is so potent as a vehicle. However, that doesn't make it more effective unless possibly going for a more local approach in a specific area of the body/skin.

Lastly, TD is not always better in a generic term unless you just referring to hepatoxicity purposes. I guess it depends on what you define as better. There are different enzymes in the liver versus on the surface of the skin that can metabolize the compounds differently and also produce different downstream metabolites so it's not just good versus bad.

I am a long-time consumer of oral epicatechin (i.e., Epi-Plex, Follidrone, Ep1logue, Ep1c Unleashed). Rather than wait on a study, why not just try a transdermal? It’s not that big of an investment.

 

[Kronic]

reading thru the chaos, you're supposed to do oral epicatechin with food?

 

[barische]

For what its worth, just started epichaos 3 days ago and my close grip bench is up by couple reps.. hmmm

waiting for dps to stock up anacyclus and m-test. I will be ordering epi-plex and will run that after epichaos