Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Obama to support ground zero mosque

Invalid Link Removed


^^^^^^VOTE NOW!!!! 44% furious against this project!^^^^^^


Invalid Link Removed


Invalid Link Removed


A Marist poll of voters in New York City found 53% opposed the mosque. Only 34% thought it would facilitate cultural understanding while half thought it was offensive.

Invalid Link Removed


Majority of NYC Voters Oppose Mosque Near WTC Site… Half Call It “Offensive”

53% oppose constructing the mosque two blocks from Ground Zero while 34% favor its development. 13% are unsure.

Republicans are expressing the most dissatisfaction with the new structure. 74% oppose building a cultural center which includes a place of worship while just 16% of the city’s GOP support the move. Half of Democrats and 52% of non-enrolled voters think the mosque should not be erected while 38% and 35%, respectively, believe it should.

68% of Republicans believe the mosque is offensive to those who died in the terrorist attacks while 20% believe it will foster understanding about Islam. 47% of Democrats think the center insults the victims and their families compared with 37% of those who see the mosque as a move toward tolerance. The same proportions of non-enrolled voters — 47% and 37%, respectively — share these opinions.

Invalid Link Removed
 
As an intellectual, understanding, and smart human being with the capability of fore thought in predicting future events, and predicting the reactions of the masses... why would anyone agree to build a mosque near ground zero?

That is one the most moronic ideas anyone could agree upon.

You MUST know it will be controversial, you MUST know it will be hated, and YOU must know the possibility of danger that lurks... not from terrorists, but danger at the hands of angry Americans (or angry humans not to generalize to Americans). Some humans have such low moral values that they will attack the mosque itself with rocks, bricks, graffiti, and HATE. You MUST know this will happen. So then, why would you build this mosque?

Are the builders and people agreeing to do this living in some fantasy land with world peace? I don't think anyone is that stupid. This is the real world. You know you are asking for trouble building something like this.

You know there are many Americans who will disagree, but will never act on their disagreement.

But..

You know there are a few Americans who will disagree, and ACT on their anger.

Whoever is building this must be a retard not to predict the trouble brewing from this. They are welcoming the trouble... I'm telling you.
 
Theres a big difference between what people are allowed to do in America and what might be considered socially appropriate.

Conservatives love to talk about freedom until it comes to people they disagree with (Muslims, homosexuals, science, etc.). This is an issue based on religious tolerance, a fundamental issue when it comes to the American dialog.

Is it distasteful? Yes, at least in the current social climate (maybe too soon). Do they have a right to do it? **** yes, if you disagree then you I dont know whart the ****. This is AMERICA. Worship who you want. If you have the money then build where you want. Capitalism at work.
 
nice jorts said:
Theres a big difference between what people are allowed to do in America and what might be considered socially appropriate.

Conservatives love to talk about freedom until it comes to people they disagree with (Muslims, homosexuals, science, etc.). This is an issue based on religious tolerance, a fundamental issue when it comes to the American dialog.

Is it distasteful? Yes, at least in the current social climate (maybe too soon). Do they have a right to do it? **** yes, if you disagree then you I dont know whart the ****. This is AMERICA. Worship who you want. If you have the money then build where you want. Capitalism at work.
Click to expand...

An Liberals love to talk about equality until it comes to people of the Christian faith. If this was anything about religous tolerance and equality, the Greek Orthodox church would be built as well, but they got shot down, and the Mosque got fast tracked through without the same guidelines as the Orthodox church.

And the Church was there prior to 9/11. To say this is anything about religous tolerance is ignorant to the debate at hand.
 
this is why i dont believe in anything...i just live my life and try to live happy. Almost every religion has a very violent past and present. people praise something and think they are good people and then start killing which isnt what a "religous" person should do. try being a good person instead. makes no sense at all. its a vicious cycle and nothing gets resolved ever. i respect everyones beliefs otherwise. im not educated enough on this topic to the level that you all are but i felt that i wanted to say something.
 
Harry Manback said:
It's not a question of religious freedom, it's more of a moral issue. They are exploiting the American rights, laughing at us behind our backs. There are certain unspoken and unwritten rules to life in general, some lines you just don't cross. Unfortunately for the "good" muslim people, this is only going to create more hatred and controversy toward them because of many peoples ignorant and blanketed views.
Click to expand...

this is exactly what is happening in my eyes. they know this is the place they can get away with it.
 
DAdams91982 said:
An Liberals love to talk about equality until it comes to people of the Christian faith. If this was anything about religous tolerance and equality, the Greek Orthodox church would be built as well, but they got shot down, and the Mosque got fast tracked through without the same guidelines as the Orthodox church.

And the Church was there prior to 9/11. To say this is anything about religous tolerance is ignorant to the debate at hand.
Click to expand...

The issue with the greek orthodox church was that they wanted taxpayer supported funds in the form of money and free land (i believe in excess of $40-$60 dollars) whereas the mosque is being built complete on purchased land using private funds.

Apples and oranges.
 
dsade said:
The issue with the greek orthodox church was that they wanted taxpayer supported funds in the form of money and free land (i believe in excess of $40-$60 dollars) whereas the mosque is being built complete on purchased land using private funds.

Apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

Incorrect, it was a zoning issue that it would be taller than allowed, but the mosque is not following this same guideline.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Incorrect, it was a zoning issue that it would be taller than allowed, but the mosque is not following this same guideline.
Click to expand...

Not what this says at all:

Arey was referring to the address, about 100 yards away from the original site, where the government earlier proposed relocating the church. The Port Authority and the church announced a deal in July 2008 under which the Port Authority would grant land and up to $20 million to help rebuild the church -- in addition, the authority was willing to pay up to $40 million to construct a bomb-proof platform underneath.

Within a year, the deal fell through and talks ended -- apparently for good, according to the Port Authority.

The archdiocese and Port Authority now offer sharply conflicting accounts of where things went wrong. The Port Authority has claimed the church was making additional demands -- like wanting the $20 million up front and wanting to review plans for the surrounding area. They say the church can still proceed on its own if it wishes.


Invalid Link Removed
 
youngandfree said:
How many Christians hijacked 2 planes and flew them into the World Trade Center. Its comparing apples to oranges. Christians aren't on a mission to destroy any and all non Christians. How many Catholic terrorists groups are on the terror watch list? Any muslim that is a fundamental worshiper and follower is taught to kill non believers. Christianity does not teach you must kill others to ensure entry into heaven. That is why muslims become suicide bombers. You can't gloss over that one fact.
Click to expand...

We didn't have those tools available when we did it. We drowned, burned and tortured people in all sorts of ways during The Crusades. its really not apples to oranges, its apples to apples....we just got it out of our system early. Granted its in the past but we were just as bad at one point. I'm currently getting ready to go on deployment and I don't hate muslims. Most muslims are tolerant and pacifist, some even want our help. That being said, I don't mind a mosque being built but with the stipulations that the funder has no ties to terrorist groups and that the church can be built as well. Muslim extremist are a minority of the religion, unfortunately the media doesn't focus on the muslims that are on our side. There are muslims all over the world...should we hate all of them? Also, for those of you that think we should stoop to their level, you're pretty much asking for more American soldiers to die. During Desert Storm thousands of Husseins soldiers layed down arms without firing a single shot at us because they knew they would be treated humanely. That's. That's that many less of the enemy that the U.S. had to worry about during fire fights. There's a reason for everything we do and why only 1% of us do it. I'm not sympathetic to muslim extremist and I hate terrorist, but we can't classify all muslims into 1 group. We have a constitution for a reason and it applies to everyone.
 
1slowcivic said:
We have a constitution for a reason and it applies to everyone.
Click to expand...

mich29 said:
as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
Click to expand...

So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.
 
You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
 
EasyEJL said:
You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
Click to expand...

Our government does more for "them" than they do for "us". Us being white males, them being everybody else. I support the advancement of white males, not out of hate for others, in fact I understand that we weren't given the choice to be born so therefore we're all equal in that sense, but just like the every other racial group supporting their cause, I'm supporting mine. You can be as liberal as you want. Your beliefs are yours, mine are mine. But I'm not just going to run with it because it's what the government deems right.
 
Harry Manback said:
Our government does more for "them" than they do for "us". Us being white males, them being everybody else. I support the advancement of white males, not out of hate for others, in fact I understand that we weren't given the choice to be born so therefore we're all equal in that sense, but just like the every other racial group supporting their cause, I'm supporting mine. You can be as liberal as you want. Your beliefs are yours, mine are mine. But I'm not just going to run with it because it's what the government deems right.
Click to expand...

You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
 
EasyEJL said:
You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
Click to expand...

You make a good point. I don't need the government, but as we know, we can't avoid government involvement. So as the saying goes "if you can't beat them, join them". The government makes these laws and adaptations because of other racial/minority groups complaining. So now it's our turn to complain. We all have our moral beliefs, which is why the minorities stand up. They feel they are being persecuted. Ok, I can understand that. But when, as a white man, I feel persecuted, I can't complain? This isn't just about the mosque, this goes much deeper. Everyone says the constitution this and the constitution that. But what they are missing is that now we are the ones are becoming unfairly treated. All because everyone wants to remain PC and fix everything that happened in the past. Well you know what, I wasn't there for much of the wrong-doings. I'm sure as hell not going to feel sorry for actions that I did not commit. Yes things have been unfair and people treated wrong in the past. But it's done with, time to move on. You can only play the race card so much. If your homeland is so great, then by all means, go home.
 
But more government involvement is what is causing the unfair atmosphere. We need to continue to minimize governed involvement, get rid of equal opportunity laws, because as the constitution says "All men are created equal." Nowhere does it state the the government should try to equalize adults. what too many people fail to realize is that more government = less rights.
 
EasyEJL said:
But more government involvement is what is causing the unfair atmosphere. We need to continue to minimize governed involvement, get rid of equal opportunity laws, because as the constitution says "All men are created equal." Nowhere does it state the the government should try to equalize adults. what too many people fail to realize is that more government = less rights.
Click to expand...

[The bold is an excellent point]

Agreed. But now the question is, how?

Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening. A) because people are too ignorant to realize what's going on and B) The government has far too much power in many aspects to let this society become a less goverend society.

The only way real change can and will happen is once again thru a revolutionary war. And like I mentioned, I just don't see that happening.
 
Hopefully, we'll see some actual change this november's election, and hopefully as well it won't go like the way the last set of republican majority did, forgetting what they got elected for.
 
Harry Manback said:
[The bold is an excellent point]

Agreed. But now the question is, how?

Unfortunately, I just don't see it happening. A) because people are too ignorant to realize what's going on and B) The government has far too much power in many aspects to let this society become a less goverend society.

The only way real change can and will happen is once again thru a revolutionary war. And like I mentioned, I just don't see that happening.
Click to expand...

100% correct. People will not revolt, in the majority people are just too stupid and content :grumpy:
 
Why on ground zero though? I'd be offended if it were a christian church ensuing that we are "a christian nation." There's a line between exercising your rights and deliberately being arrogant.

However, if "we" care so much for the location now, why didn't "we" use the location for something more meaningful by now?
 
Invalid Link Removed

Obama gives your tax dollars to rebuild Muslim mosques around the world
While millions of Americans struggle to keep their homes and jobs, President Barack Obama can't give your tax dollars away fast enough.
August 26, 2010


Dear Bill,


According to the Associated Press, the Obama administration will give away nearly $6 million of American tax dollars to restore 63 historic and cultural sites, including Islamic mosques and minarets, in 55 nations. See the State Department document here.

This is an outrage! Our country is broke. And can you imagine what the ACLU and others on the secular left would say if these monies had been spent to repair Christian churches? They would be screaming “separation of church and state!” Funding Islam on foreign soil with American taxpayer money? Not a whimper.

The latest taxpayer givaway includes $76,000 for a 16th century mosque in China, $67,000 for a mosque in Pakistan, $77,000 to restore minarets in Nigeria and Mauritania, and $50,000 for an Islamic Monument in India.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the U.S. program to restore Islamic and other cultural sites in other countries is taxpayer money well spent.
 
I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
 
There HAS to be a reason that America is better every other country. If the freedom is what makes it better then we need to follow it to show the rest of the world no matter how we dislike it.
 
Condition1 said:
I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
Click to expand...

A mosque is a HUGE ass place and it's very boring. They walk in, pray, read the Quarn(some do some don't), walk out. That's it! This building doesn't look like a mosque but there calling it that.
 
Harry Manback said:
So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.
Click to expand...

if they are doing it out of spite at all ??? no one knows.you gotta believe we have spies within their group watching them.we ran back ground checks on them and everything else.they came up clean and have been given the green light to build.if we in the usa stopped them from building this place we open the flood gates to other acts of hate.the usa is one of the few places where anyone can actually make it and hopefully it stays this way.
 
What about the fact that Immam Rauf refuses to denounce terrorist organizations including Hamas. He says one thing about peace here, but goes to the middle east and gives arab interviews that contradict his peaceful statements. No one has been able to refute the fact that for centuries islam has built mosques at sites where they have conquered and turned the states into muslim states. And the fact that the building they bought was damaged by airplane parts from the ATTACK that muslims inflicted on the US. So if it was damaged during their attack, I would consider that part of ground zero.
 
I think the problem with America today is too many right. We have no identity anymore because we have no focus.

EasyEJL said:
You can feel free to dislike someone because they act out of spite, but that doesn't mean our government should treat them any differently unless they are committing a crime.
Click to expand...

Define crime? Crime is what we are taught it is by the current people in power. I would find any form of betrayal a crime, but for the most part its a general practice in America. :grumpy:

mich29 said:
as much as some may not like this they have every right to build it
Click to expand...

And rednecks have the right to do what they are going to do to it lol. Not necessarily a law-based right(but our laws are now useless and flawed beyond repair, best taken as advice and your true laws left to your moral understanding and desire to stay out from behind bars). But a universal right transcending land laws. By that I mean People A said: If you build that, we gona blow it up. People B said : We dont care, your a buncha panzies, we shall insult you anyways People A then: blow it up... Its the right of common sense.

Common sense to me means, when an action is going to happen that you wont like, avoid it, no? America protects stupid people, hell we even elect them as presidents, but at some point its gona stop. And it wont be pretty.


It will be interesting when it all goes down. Because I wonder if it will spark a jihad thingy, or a racial conflict, or a civil war, or nothing at all and we call it tragedy and all go out for ice cream....

Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it? I mean thats how the muslims roll, only seems fair and there are a helluvalot more than 3 who are probably willing or planning on it already. I run into alot of rednecks. Budweiser isnt explosive is it? Because if it is, were all screwed they have the mother load!

Wait we should call the crusaders from the days of the crusades extremists as well I think.(Then gain consider that the soldiers were a forced tithe from any country under the papacy's control, hell a chunk of them probably were not even fighting for the catholic belief). People look at it as a united offensive, when really the pull of soldiers from each nation left it weaker while they were already fighting wars against each other over land/ old disputes/ etc. I doubt the kings wanted a portion of their troops to go riding off thousands of miles to a war that would not benefit them...


Im not saying blow it up, but man every one with a Nascar hat will be on their way lol. In essence, the American people have voted "no" on the subject and plan to enforce their vote.
 
AtlasEnduring said:
Here is another big question....cant just 3 Christian or Catholic or Jewish "extremists" blow it all to hell, then the rest of the Christian/Catholic/Jewish community suffer absolutely nothing from it?
Click to expand...
You mean like Oklahoma City?
 
AtlasEnduring said:
Forgive my ignorance :( But can you explain? I am sure there is a story to it, but I dont know it.
Click to expand...

The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
 
dsade said:
The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing was committed by Christians. There has been little to no major backlash against christians in general specifically because of it.
Click to expand...

Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

"Blood, Sweat, and Tears doesn't mean crying while you struggle to put your tampon in." ~dsade
 
Did Tim Mcveigh and Terry Nichols do their atrocious act in the name of Jesus? I don't recall that part. Because they were Christians doesn't automatically make them religious extremist like Islamic terrorists. If I recall they had a beef with the govt and went off the deep end. But if they didn't do it as a part of their fanatical christianity its like apples to oranges. The history and motives behind it are completely different than the Islamic terrorists that attacked us on 9/11 as part of their RELIGIOUS JIHAD against America. So the Oklahoma city bombing as horrific as it was doesn't hold water as justification to allow this particular group of Muslims the have ties to terrorist organizations, ie the Muslim Brotherhood, to build a mosque as a symbol of their American conquest.

What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.
 
Stop calling it a mosque, because it's not a mosque. The building is double digits and only 2 floors are dedicated for "prayer." Stop saying it's being built on ground zero, because it's not, despite you're personal definition of ground zero (not to call anyone out.) It's 2-3 blocks in a diagonal direction from the corner of ground zero.

As for the conspiracy theories, because that's just what they're becoming: Don't let fear mongering get the best of you. There are a lot of things being taken out of context, as usual.
 
youngandfree said:
What about the fact that aren't any residential areas any where close to ground zero any way and people would have to go across the city and pass other mosques to get there.
Click to expand...

There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.
 
Condition1 said:
There is a christian church and a catholic church much closer to ground zero than the proposed "mosque" is. Let's just change the definition of community center and call it a mosque.
Click to expand...

Community center...for Muslims. It has a mosque in it...

What this really is, is people trying to resist the Muslim influence on our nation. For some odd reason, the government is "over" supporting it which is weird...

And just as they technically have a right to build it, we technically have the right to say "no" and prevent it. Those who are here first, have the right to do so. Those whose beliefs aided in the building of America I believe have the right to say no in such things. America was not built, in any form, off of muslim faith. Muslim faith as far as I can see only results in poor countries full of angry people, proclaiming peace lol. The only thing I see that I liked is their law system. You cheat on someone, we kill you. You steal, we kill you. You kill, we kill you. But their shiiara law or whatever its called also goes.... Your Gay, we kill you. You dont agree, we kill you. You a woman and dont wear headgear, we kill you.

And that is what the moderates of their faith follow and do. Death because of that law system happens daily, and those are the crimes. Hell even here in the states they carry it out. You know why those teen muslim girls still wear headgear? Not out of faith, but because they will STILL be killed here in America for it. It happens.

You can say freedom of religion, but I also say...There is a freedom to resist something we dont like. Tolerance does not mean we have to accept them, it means we tolerate a certain "level" but we limit a point where we no longer tolerate, and then we have to retaliate or lose our identity.

Its drawing close to that retaliation time. About 90% of people I meet daily, if we come to talking about muslims, they hate them. Even if they know nice ones, they hate muslims as a whole. Its really not going to go well. What does the muslim community stand to gain by building it? Does that outweigh the price they will pay? Or is that what they want?

You cannot "cut off" terrorist funding for it as of now, no way you can its too late. If that is a facet of it that is. So what is a great strategy to hit America a second time?

Well now that you have so many muslims here, build something in such a way it will become a target for extremists of another faith that America is recognized for. Then when it gets attacked and destroyed, you now have an excuse to get all the muslims in an uproar, and get a real jihad going.

Damn is there not one person here who understands military stratagems and political subterfuge? This building/mosque/community center has essentially been denied by the American people, yet thanks to people higher up it will likely get forced through. Then when what is gona happen, happens....it gives them excuses for violence...A way to rally the peaceful ones into a more conflict oriented mindset, and so on. Muslims are blind in faith, and can be driven into doing things. Like any one of any faith, the majority of them are going to be more sheepish and can be slightly manipulated.
 
Harry Manback said:
So lets say someone is acting under their rights, but doing so to spite us in a horrible way, it's ok? Come on. There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. The constitution that was written hundreds of years ago did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days. Everyone talks about change. Well change is going to have to apply to our "rights" as well. It's gotten out of hand. All this PC garbage has to stop as well. It's bad enough I'm a white man in America these days. But it all ties in to this situation. So many of us feel one way but speak another. Very hypocritical. And all of this because of "religion"? Essentially it boils down to either having human rights or God rights. Pick one.[/Q

So, lets see exactly whats wrong with what you said...
1)The constitution was written hundreds of years ago and did not envision the type of chaos that goes on these days.
"The founders understood that in framing the constitution they were trying to limit the power of government by taking human nature from the equation. The constitution has been attacked as archaic and obsolete for a myriad of reasons. These attacks illustrate a basic misunderstanding of the constitutions purpose"
The constitution may not have envisioned everything that could possibly happen, but it did leave room for something we like to call "Ammendments" Thank GOD for the constitution, without it human nature is to hate whatever is different and become ignorant and classify everyone in a certain group as having the same characteristics. Maybe we should put them all in concentration camps? I'm sure you would be happy with that.
2)Change is going to have to apply to our rights as well.
Really,now? Personally, I like my rights. You're welcome to give up yours if you like. Or, did you mean that all muslims should lose their rights? I'M ALL FOR TERRORIST HAVING NO RIGHTS AND THEY SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE LAW. To single out a single religion is at the very least ignorant. Every religion has had terrorist at some point.
3) All this PC garbage has to stop
I actually agree with you on something. You should be allowed to say just about whatever you want. However, that has nothing to do with letting people of a certain religion practice their reigion without having to feel peseccuted. I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons the pilgrims came over was to escape that very thing.
4) It's hard enough I'm a white man in America these days
Seriously guy? Whens the last time you're application got pushed to the back because they saw the name Javier Gonzalez or whatever name and decided to give him the interview first.I'm sure you have some really white sounding name and 9 times out of 10 youre gonna get the interview first. Hard being a white man in America.....thats funny. I could go so far into this.
5) Human rights or God rights
As a human you have the right to worship ny God you choose.

I could keep going but I had a long day training so that I can go overseas and protect the constitution that allows you those rights that you feel need to be changed.You know the ones that allow you to have an oppinion and actually say what you think in an open forum.
Click to expand...
 
EasyEJL said:
You are missing the fact that for white conservative males, the best we can ask for is less goverment involvement. And yet here you are asking for more government involvement, hoping for legislation of morality. Hoping they will pass a law to avoid someone acting in a spiteful way.
Click to expand...
Well stated.
 
Condition1 said:
I had to look a little more into this. The "mosque" is being built 3-5 blocks over a building in ruins that has been for sale at a very low price. The sight isn't even visible from ground zero due to buildings being in the way. It's, by definition, not a mosque (where people go only for prayer and worship, whatnot.) It's something of a culinary school with a basketball court and 2 floors for muslim worship.

All of this fear mongering is turning this country into a Nazi state.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
AtlasEnduring said:
Ah, ok I think I can recollect some of that story now. Still its a bit harder to compare something like that, to the world trade centers. Something small time like that, to something as grand and multifaceted as 9/11? Dont forget the pentagon, and the one plane that never made it.

EDIT: BTW, I posted your freaking sig onto my facebook. I laughed pretty hard

"Blood, Sweat, and Tears doesn't mean crying while you struggle to put your tampon in." ~dsade
Click to expand...
While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
 
southpaw23 said:
While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
Click to expand...

McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
 
AtlasEnduring said:
McVeigh....dude he was upset about the Waco incident, from what I have gathered after looking into it...

If anything if you read up on him, he was created by the United States military. A child of true PTSD, in my opinion from what I have seen. He was purely in it for an anti-government reason, and used the Waco incident as an excuse to take action. He wrote an essay I was going over about what the U.S. was doing in war.

Even satan believes in God, doesnt make him a Christian....

As for the mosque, the points been made...regardless of what you and I believe, the outcome wont be changed by our beliefs if they build it. That is my point, they really will have no reason to cry about it being blown up if they build it when half of America would enjoy that.

Its like when someone chooses to drink and drive and they die...yeah they have that freedom of choice, but I wont cry because of their death...I will morn for those whom they may have injured as a side effect though.

All I am saying is if you have dedicated extremists who already have the stance they will blow it, probably setting back supplies or God knows what, then why will every one call it a "tragedy" when it could have been 100% avoided...

Unless like I stated, it is a military intent of muslim radicals to purposely make themselves appear as victems giving them a right to retaliate in their minds, and in conjunction rallying the more peaceful muslims into a more conflict oriented mindset.

So McVeigh-the PTSD product of the United States dirty laundry in a political war and targeting government workers, vs muslim extremists wanting to be martyrs and inflict as much harm on anything American as they can(aka infidels, government workers or citizens its all the same), regardless of their standings politically. One was an upset mentally deranged citizen, and one was a group of religious soldiers doing it for a false god....Not the same at all.

EDIT: let me bring up a fact proven by history. Christians and muslims cannot co-exist in the same place. Over there, they kill Christians all the time. And no, not the extremists, your average muslim community. Yet Christian nations dont kill muslims all the time. Weird huh...But its bad blood, and its slowly breeding hate here in America. Christians dealing with muslims and vice versa, they do not agree at all. Even the nice ones of each hate the others. You are putting gasoline beside gasoline and setting a fire between them. A nation is either going to be Christian, or muslim. It cannot house both, and should it try....well War WILL come eventually. But instead of some revolution or something, its going to be a religious war.

Pick your poison, man will fight and kill each other. Many "try" to blame religion....but even without it they would kill. Heck religion at least teachers some of them mercy, which is what creates more conservative sides of faiths and saves lives. Where as if it was war without religion, it would just be pure hatred and anger with no reason to feel guilt for it or to show mercy.

Yeah my beliefs are Christian, I have my reasons for my beliefs. And I also have my reasons to distrust the muslim community.

And to be clear I am not saying I'm 100% right or your 100% right. No, instead I am saying look at the facts, look at the manuscript laid before us. Read a chapter ahead in the book, and for once in our lives prevent something instead of watching it come and complain about why it happened instead of preventing it.
Click to expand...

Good post. I'm glad someone acknowledges my point about McVeigh. No where have I heard of him doing that in the name of Jesus or anything close to it. It was a completely different set of circumstances. People that don't understand the true Muslim faith don't understand their mandate from Allah they must convert the infidels or kill them. The other reason the blow themselves up is too ensure entry into Heaven. The live by a system of good works vs. bad works. At the end of their life, they have to have done more goods than bad to get into Heaven. BUT, if one isn't sure if they have done enough good, they have an exit strategy, which ironically is bad works. Die as a martyr in the jihad. It overcomes everything bad in their life. So if one is in a mosque with radical immam teaching, like the Fort Hood assassin was when he attended the northern VA mosque, they are encouraged to become a martyr. Funny how that Immam fled to pakistan after being linked to numerous terrorist attacks.

So you can't have it both ways. You have to understand Islam is about world domination. Immam Rauf has said in the past how to take over America is slowly, one piece at a time. Kind of like the communist plan to take over America.
 
My general point is that there are many individuals/groups out there, who in the name of religion have committed atrocities.

Individuals claiming Christianity have taken the lives of abortion doctor(s). While I don't in my heart of hearts support a Mosque being built close to ground zero (I'm from NY), I support their rights to be able to do so.
 
southpaw23 said:
While you cannot compare the two separate acts, you can compare the intent behind those acts. And that is what the previous poster is alluding to. There are churches built in and around the area where the Oklahoma City bombing took place. McVeigh was a christian and sought to make mention of that prior to his execution. The point is, while not agreeing with a Mosque being built close to ground zero, they are within their rights to do so. Additionally, it is more of a community rec center, that just happens to house a Mosque, similar to a YMCA.
Click to expand...

You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.
 
youngandfree said:
You posted here that McVeigh did it in the name of Religion. You said the intent was the same which is not the case.
Click to expand...
Reports circulated that he had a loose affiliation with Elohim City, a Christian Identity commune in Oklahoma. In an interview given to Time Magazine in 2001, McVeigh also mentioned literature that centered deeply around the Christian Identity movement, the Turner Diaries.

Extreme religious ideology factors largely into these types of acts, including the killing of abortion doctors, such as Dr. George Tiller, whose killer implicitly stated that he was carrying out god's work.
 
Everything I've read on Elohim City and McVeighs association point to a shared anti-government sentiment. They were retaliating for the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as opposed to a religious attack.

Now the guy that killed Dr Tiller is a nut job and as a Christian denounce his "doing Gods work". That is clearly someone with a perverted form of Christianity just as in Elohim City.
 
Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
 
HereToStudy said:
Ugh, I am so sick of hearing of this debate.

Want my opinion? Get rid of religion in general, it is the cause of all this hate.

Don't agree with me? Then don't think you are any better than a Muslim, or have any more right to a church/mosque than they do. If you believe in freedom of religion for your religion, you damn well believe in it for any other religion.

Build the mosque, end of story, get back to issues that matter.
Click to expand...
Amen to that. Organized religion has done more to create divisions throughout the world, than to unite under us under any common thread.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top