My take on IGF-1

wophood said:
I would like to hear more about peoples mgf dosages. Anybody here figured out a number that seems to work well for them? I've read 200mcgs, bi-laterally EOD immediately post workout is getting some good feedback.
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This is a thread on IGF, not MGF. If you do some searching you will find lots of other threads on MGF.
 
is it true that taking igf will leave little lumps where ever you inject,idk thats what my buddy told me just wondering yalls experiences.

Grunt76 said:
On July 20 I got into some pretty intense discussion on another board about IGF-1. I got so rattled with the misinformation that I decided to loose my 13 years of reading on IGF-1 onto that board. Here's the result.

This is false.

The difference between rhIGF-1 and Long R3 is that the Long R3 does not get bound by binding protein and thus is 100% active whereas you do lose a great % of whatever amount of rhIGF-1 you inject to IGFBP3.

While technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of the rhIGF-1 it will have almost only localized effect, it is so because the "excess" that does not bind to cells in the muscle in which it is injected is rapidly bound up by IGFBP3 and thus rendered unusable by cells elsewhere. It would be much much better in such a case to inject a smaller amount and not have ANY excess that gets bound up by IGFBP's.

And while technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of Long R3 IGF-1 in a muscle, it will first bind to the nearest available receptor, and spread, binding to more and more receptors and not be bound up and neutralized by IGFBP's, meaning that it will travel all through your body and grow all kinds of tissue. This is called the systemic effect of IGF-1. Therein lies the only distinction in terms of BOTH half-life and localized/systemic effect between the Long and the human varieties.

What does all this mean?

It means that technically, for the part of the muscle in which you inject, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN rhIGF-1 and Long R3 IGF-1. They both have the EXACT SAME LOCAL EFFECT. But rhIGF-1 gets neutralized quick, whereas Long R3 gets to float around until it finds a receptor.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us many things. Let's start with what we want, then see where that leads us. What do we want? Bigger muscles. More muscle cells that we will later grow with exercise and gear. A pump? Fatloss? Yeah, right. You can get a pump with a good "pump" product for a quarter of the price of IGF-1. Fatloss? Clen/Alb and T3/T4 will give it to you again at a fraction of the price of IGF-1. More muscle cells, you can ONLY get with IGF-1 (and MGF too). Nothing else will give it to you and if you are using IGF-1 for anything else, you are misusing it. More muscle cells is CLEARLY the best use for IGF-1.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us that we should use IGF-1 to make more muscle cells. It's the only thing that can give it to us and more cells is more growth, which is our goal.

What does this tell us?

The localized effects are the best. Long R3 IGF-1 can float around your body and attach to anything that has IGF-1 receptors. The intestines is the place that has the MOST IGF-1 receptors and it also happens to have lots of blood flow. Injecting large amounts of Long R3 ENSURES that you are growing your intestines. Remember, more cells doesn't equal more size right away. Wait a bit, and see them grow.

What does this mean?

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

HOW?

Heavy resistance exercise strongly upregulates the IGF-1 receptors on the stressed muscle. That means that after your workout, the muscles you trained are at their BEST STATE for receiving IGF-1 and growing many new cells. That's when you pin. This upregulation of IGF-1 receptor during exercise is short-lived. The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper, but within 60 minutes of the last set, the receptors are back at baseline. This means, PIN IMMEDIATELY POSTWORKOUT and you will get your new muscle cells. PIN A LESSER AMOUNT and you will get only new MUSCLE cells out of your IGF-1. Pin more and you will grow other things, including stuff you wish you didn't grow.

What else?

All the talk about IGF-1's half-life is UTTER BULL****. It is technicality without any real-world applicability. Yes rhIGF-1 has a "short half-life". But what does it mean? It means that it is either taken up by a cell receptor or bound up by a binding protein in short order. Does it mean that 20 minutes after the IGF-1 is pinned you should pin more because "blood levels are low"? Not by any means. Once it's activated a cell receptor, that's where it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete and which will consume lots of energy. So the half-life of 20 minutes means NOTHING BECAUSE THE EFFECTS STILL LAST 72 HOURS ALL THE SAME.

What about Long R3 IGF-1?

Yes technically it has a longer half-life. Why? Because it either gets rapidly taken up by a cell receptor or... Just floats around. Until it can find a receptor or is destroyed by the immune system or some other metabolizing mechanism. BUT THIS MEANS ***NOTHING***!!! Why does it mean nothing? BECAUSE once it attaches to a cell receptor, it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete. THIS CELLULAR RESPONSE IS ALL THAT INTERESTS US. Not "blood levels", that's utter bull****. As a matter of fact, the one thing YOU DO NOT WANT IS FOR BLOOD LEVELS OF IGF-1 TO BE ELEVATED. Because that means you are growing everywhere and this means first and foremost your guts. Sure it feels like it's working while you're on. Just you wait 9 months and see that you look like Craig Kovacs. Bravo, you now have the biggest intestines in the world.

Half-life means nothing. Localized vs systemic = bad argument. You want localized effects. Period. You get them by pinning immediately postworkout. Period. End of argument.

OMFG I am so tired of all the misinformation floating around on IGF-1. Look at the length of this post. Did you read all of it? You should, you know.
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Lots of really good information in this sticky, there's still a few things I'd like to ask though.

1. To avoid injecting at the local gym but still get the maximum benefits out of injecting post workout, would it be possible to do your workout, then drive home (20mins for me), do a few more sets in the house, then take your igf?

2. What would be considered enough lifting to get your muscles in an optimal state to absorb the igf. The reason I ask is I work long hours 4 days on 4 days off, so tend to workout only 4 or 5 days out of 8 as I don't have time to go to the gym. But I'm using the igf for pct so would like to take it every day. Would maybe 8 heavy sets be enough to prime your muscles for the uptake of igf?

3. A final quick question, exactly how much bac water would you mix in the syringe with 40mcg igf? My igf came pre-mixed with BA not AA as most seem to have on here, but I assume it is diluted with BW just the same?
 
johnmatrix said:
Lots of really good information in this sticky, there's still a few things I'd like to ask though.

1. To avoid injecting at the local gym but still get the maximum benefits out of injecting post workout, would it be possible to do your workout, then drive home (20mins for me), do a few more sets in the house, then take your igf?

2. What would be considered enough lifting to get your muscles in an optimal state to absorb the igf. The reason I ask is I work long hours 4 days on 4 days off, so tend to workout only 4 or 5 days out of 8 as I don't have time to go to the gym. But I'm using the igf for pct so would like to take it every day. Would maybe 8 heavy sets be enough to prime your muscles for the uptake of igf?

3. A final quick question, exactly how much bac water would you mix in the syringe with 40mcg igf? My igf came pre-mixed with BA not AA as most seem to have on here, but I assume it is diluted with BW just the same?
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1. Yes. 20 minutes is still decent, of course doing a few more sets will probably re-prime your muscles for the IGF.

2. Unknown.

3. Sadly BA will not blend with BW inside the syringe, so it is not useful to add BW...
 
Grunt, bro, you are the man. I've been reading this thread like a book. When pinning post WO, what type of protein to carb ratio do you suggest making your shake?
 
wophood said:
Grunt, bro, you are the man. I've been reading this thread like a book. When pinning post WO, what type of protein to carb ratio do you suggest making your shake?
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The usual 2:1 carbs:aminos is best. I use dextrose coz I can't stand the taste of waxy maize starch, along with hydrolized proteins and free form amino acids. About 150g, i.e. 100g carbs and 50g aminos.
 
Grunt76 said:
Grape seed extract has been shown to be an incredible antidote for gender cancers, such as prostate, testicles, ovaries, breast etc. Why this knowledge is not more common is way beyond me.
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What sort of dose you take mate?
Have a bit of cancer in the family so sounds interesting
 
L J said:
What sort of dose you take mate?
Have a bit of cancer in the family so sounds interesting
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300mg ED. I'm currently looking into IBE's new supplement called Reverse, which has orally bioavailable (finally) resveratrol. I think it will have all these benefits.
 
Grunt76 said:
300mg ED. I'm currently looking into IBE's new supplement called Reverse, which has orally bioavailable (finally) resveratrol. I think it will have all these benefits.
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Grunt,
So are the resveratrol capsules that are presently available not very effective due to low bioavailability?
 
Anyone else notice distinct lines or indentions in their (all of them ) fingernails that correspond with their IGF use? The nail behind the line is noticeably thicker than what is before it. I guess it makes sense due to the nature of it, I just find it strange as it is also indicative of other drug use/health conditons (hypothyroidism). I also restarted supplementing with Biotin during that time and may be the cause as well.
 
i just ordered some rhigf-1 got a good deal 4 mg for $100 i know its not as potent as lr3 but the cost was to good not to try. but i need to know should i up the dose or what im just looking for some localized growth in delts and traps shooting pwo. so how much would get bound up before receptors pick it up.
 
sjenkins4 said:
i just ordered some rhigf-1 got a good deal 4 mg for $100 i know its not as potent as lr3 but the cost was to good not to try. but i need to know should i up the dose or what im just looking for some localized growth in delts and traps shooting pwo. so how much would get bound up before receptors pick it up.
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I think if you shoot 400mcg each side you MIGHT see something out of it?
 
well ok thats a little disappointing. i was under the impression it had a higher afinity to bind to primed receptors. how is gh induced igf still anabolic if its produced in the liver and binds so quickly how would it reach our muscles. Ive read this whole thread and many others but i guess i missed something somewhere. just trying to further my understanding of something i might be putting into my body
 
sjenkins4 said:
well ok thats a little disappointing. i was under the impression it had a higher afinity to bind to primed receptors. how is gh induced igf still anabolic if its produced in the liver and binds so quickly how would it reach our muscles. Ive read this whole thread and many others but i guess i missed something somewhere. just trying to further my understanding of something i might be putting into my body
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I had planned to experiment w/ regular IGF-1 at one point.

I don't feel that overall levels of circulating IGF-1 (i.e. liver produced) is all that important for muscle growth. It is the muscle IGF-1 that is important. This IGF-1 is differentiated from cirulatory IGF-1 by its autocrine/paracrine activity. In essence it is locally made & locally used.

Here's how the difference between circulating & locally made/used hormones is accomplished.

The protein that creates growth hormone and the protein that creates the growth hormone receptor act in muscle tissue within a cell to create both the GH ligand and its receptor. These two bind inside the cell but are not activated. When this complex rises to the cell surface it "twists like a light bulb" and activates the receptor-intra-cellular signaling cascade.

The import point is that circulating GH has no chance to bind with the receptor in this instance because the recepetor was birthed w/ a GH ligand pre-attached.

This type of "birthed together" activity may account for some of locally produce/used IGF-1 activity in muscle but not all. There are empty receptors.

So the quest becomes can you take the IGF-1 you purchased and administer it in a way that it is taken up in those open receptors in muscle tissue?

One thing you might try is to pin IGF-1 in the muscle in multiple places at the same time...like you would if you were filling the muscle with site enhancing oil. You would also need to dose multiple times throughout the day. So rather then one big dose which will travel systemic-like and that means it will degrade quickly in plasma you may consider small doses in multiple locations within a single muscle several times a day.

Now getting back to circulating levels of IGF-1. They are important and seem to need to be at some basic level before autocrine/paracrine action takes place.

The primary initiator of local IGF-1 creation including the splice varient production of MGF (which occurs as a result of resistance exercise) is GH levels.

Anyway bro. Don't be discouraged. Experiment some and report back.
 
ive tried lr3 last yr and liked the results but just was looking for localized stuff i guess we'll see how much can get absorbed by the muscle. Im kinda stubborn but i cant see why it would be less likely to bind to the receptors than lr3 whatever doesnt will just be bound to igf1bp3 instead of going systemic unless it goes to bp3 first. ive heard lr3 is 2 to 3 x as strong so thats where ill start and adjust from there.
 
sjenkins4 said:
ive tried lr3 last yr and liked the results but just was looking for localized stuff i guess we'll see how much can get absorbed by the muscle. Im kinda stubborn but i cant see why it would be less likely to bind to the receptors than lr3 whatever doesnt will just be bound to igf1bp3 instead of going systemic unless it goes to bp3 first. ive heard lr3 is 2 to 3 x as strong so thats where ill start and adjust from there.
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LR3 is at least 10 times as strong.
 
Grunt... did you ever come to a conclusion on how to best use pegmgf and igf? I remember a long time ago throwing around some ideas but no one ever came up with any answers
 
justreading said:
Grunt... did you ever come to a conclusion on how to best use pegmgf and igf? I remember a long time ago throwing around some ideas but no one ever came up with any answers
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Yes I have, and I have posted it numerous times on this board.
 
justreading said:
Sorry. mgf is hard to search due to the 3 letter length. I'll poke around.
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Just use the google search options for anabolic minds.

You can use three letter terms. "MGF" gives 362 results.

OR you can go to google and use the following query:

site:anabolicminds.com mgf

or

site:anabolicminds.com mgf grunt

This latter search returns the following in first position:

"A question for grunt about MGF"

If you click that link you get the Grunt protocol where he says:

"for a balanced political physique, inject the entire vial of MGF into the butt cheek on the side of your political leaning."​
 
i apologize if this question has been posted already ( i admit i didn't read the whole thread)

thw question is: why lr3 should be injected right after the workout? if i understood weel its life is a lot more than normal igf, is still necessary inject it immediately after the workout and in the worked muscles?
i don't know much about this compound but if it's life is long enough would be a good idea to inject before the workout ( so while working out the receptors will be stimulated and lr3 will go into the muscles)?
thanks
 
mazzucazze said:
i apologize if this question has been posted already ( i admit i didn't read the whole thread)

thw question is: why lr3 should be injected right after the workout? if i understood weel its life is a lot more than normal igf, is still necessary inject it immediately after the workout and in the worked muscles?
i don't know much about this compound but if it's life is long enough would be a good idea to inject before the workout ( so while working out the receptors will be stimulated and lr3 will go into the muscles)?
thanks
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You didn't even read the first freaking page. All your questions are already in this thread. Why don't you, instead of asking questions to which the answers are already there, and then thinking of new questions, the anwers are already here, and so on, why don't you just READ THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS YOU HAVE AS WELL AS THOSE YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF YET?
 
Grunt76 said:
You didn't even read the first freaking page. All your questions are already in this thread. Why don't you, instead of asking questions to which the answers are already there, and then thinking of new questions, the anwers are already here, and so on, why don't you just READ THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS YOU HAVE AS WELL AS THOSE YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF YET?
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you misunderstood my question, was about WHY ( the reason behind that) i apoligize if i didn't explain myself correctly but english is not my first language.

if you don't want to answer i understand, but please answer to this question:
i am going into pct in few weeks and i will start lr3, i train on monday, thuesday, thursday and fryday.
would be ok to use 40 mcg of lr3 after each workout? and can i use this protocol for around 5-6 weeks?
thanks
 
mazzucazze said:
you misunderstood my question, was about WHY ( the reason behind that) i apoligize if i didn't explain myself correctly but english is not my first language.

if you don't want to answer i understand, but please answer to this question:
i am going into pct in few weeks and i will start lr3, i train on monday, thuesday, thursday and fryday.
would be ok to use 40 mcg of lr3 after each workout? and can i use this protocol for around 5-6 weeks?
thanks
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Yes.
 
Hey guys - just realized this is my first post - YIKES - I read on here often - and am about to start my own trial of peptides - cjc-1295, ghrp-6, and igf-1 with my PCT treatment after my bulker. I am a mod on a smaller forum and use larger forums like this for info on AAS and Peptide information that we don't have. I need to get my Post count to 20 so that I can start posting my log under the IGF-1/GH section for others to read.

Thanks to Dat and the others for all the great info!

JG
 
Just looking for views on taking Igf-1. I want benefits and least side effects and do not want to be taking numerous substances. I have read though that taking Igf-1 will shut down release of hgh. With 20mcg of Igf-1 would this shut down be to a great degree--- and if so should now I also consider taking a testosterone long chain in order to keep hgh production. From there would 6oxo be sufficient to decrease aromatization?
 
Mikeycpm1 said:
Just looking for views on taking Igf-1. I want benefits and least side effects and do not want to be taking numerous substances. I have read though that taking Igf-1 will shut down release of hgh. With 20mcg of Igf-1 would this shut down be to a great degree--- and if so should now I also consider taking a testosterone long chain in order to keep hgh production. From there would 6oxo be sufficient to decrease aromatization?
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I don't know where you read that, but it is simply not correct.
 
Mikeycpm1 said:
Just looking for views on taking Igf-1. I want benefits and least side effects and do not want to be taking numerous substances. I have read though that taking Igf-1 will shut down release of hgh. With 20mcg of Igf-1 would this shut down be to a great degree--- and if so should now I also consider taking a testosterone long chain in order to keep hgh production. From there would 6oxo be sufficient to decrease aromatization?
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You need to start reading this thread from the start............................................ then to the end. IGF isn't a steeroid, Ds, prohormone, etc. Not flaming or anything, but you have no idea what your asking about. Read on then ask questions based on what you've read. Everyone is here to answer them, but you have to bring something to the table.:thumbsup:
 
It wouldn't really matter if it did, as IGF gets turned into HGH in the liver. If your body quit producing HGH while you were on IGf (which it doesn't) then it would simply restart when the IGF was discontinued. Its not like restarting testosterone production after a run of steroids.
 
RedwolfWV said:
It wouldn't really matter if it did, as IGF gets turned into HGH in the liver. If your body quit producing HGH while you were on IGf (which it doesn't) then it would simply restart when the IGF was discontinued. Its not like restarting testosterone production after a run of steroids.
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Red, I think you meant to say that GH signals the liver to manufacture IGF-1. :)
 
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