Minneapolis bridge!

[CRUNCH]

Holy freaking crap! I drive across that bridge several times per month!!

 

[CDB]

Holy freaking crap! I drive across that bridge several times per month!!

I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm glad you weren't on it when it went kerflooey.

 

[CRUNCH]

Thanks CDB! I'm pretty happy I wasn't either! I'm about to mix a large drink, maybe stop the shaking I've got going on!

 

[CDB]

Thanks CDB! I'm pretty happy I wasn't either! I'm about to mix a large drink, maybe stop the shaking I've got going on!

Athol Brose. Teaspoon of honey, teaspoon of oatmeal brose (soak oatmeal, strain it, the cloudy liquid is the brose), whiskey, dash of cinnamon. Goes down real nice and keeps you regular.

 

[CRUNCH]

Vodka and lemonade was easier to get too.

 

[CDB]

Vodka and lemonade was easier to get too.

Add some fiber and it's the same thing really.

Some witness just claimed she saw 'explosions' before the collapse. Hope that doesn't pan out to what everyone is thinking but doesn't seem to be saying on the news right now.

Saw a picture of the bridge before the collapse. Doesn't seem to be something that would just fall on its own or from a single point of failure.

 

[jmh80]

Huh???

 

[CDB]

Come one, jmh. Even I watch enough TV to get this story. Flick on the lobotomy box and turn to CNN or Fox.

 

[CRUNCH]

I'm watching one of the local stations. No witnesses have mentioned explosions yet, just people that felt rumbling, then bam, everything goes down...64 freaking feet. They did mention the FBI being called in though. I highly doubt terrorism, somebody with the MN dept of transportation screwed up bad. Sh!t, we were going to downtown Mpls this Sat.

 

[bioman]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/01/bridge.collapse/index.html#cnnSTCPhoto

I just heard about this. Glad you are OK, Crunch. Still waiting on word from some of our collective friends in the area.

(SE has an update thread.)

 

[snakebyte05]

Yea I drive on that every few weeks when I head into minneapolis. As far as explosions, I highly doubt it, the bridge didn't just up and fall for no reason. They were redoing several parts of the bridge and has come out that the minnesota department of transportation did an assessment on it last year in may which stated that the steel frames under the bridge were in need of repair. Whether or not this is what caused the failure or not, we won't know for a while.

 

[CNorris]

I used to drive across that bridge every day until I got a new job. The whole situation is insane. I always hated crossing it with my motorcycle because there is no shoulder, but the thought of it collapsing never crossed my mind.

I'm glad I don't go to school or work down there any more.

 

[Iron Warrior]

Good to know you're safe. My biggest fear is a magnitude 7+ earthquake when I'm on a bridge, highway, or ladder. That sh!t was crazy.

 

[PumpingIron]

Wow, my deepest sympathys go out to the families of those who passed...

Crunch, glad to see you're alright. I need to hit you up soon again about what we had talked about before...

Any word on the cause yet?

 

[CRUNCH]

Just turned it back on this morning. Still doesn't sound like they have any clue what caused it. Saying there's still 20 people missing...dayum!

 

[CDB]

Just turned it back on this morning. Still doesn't sound like they have any clue what caused it. Saying there's still 20 people missing...dayum!

Heard that. Considering it's a quarter mile span and the whole thing went down at rush hour, the casualties seem thankfully lite at this point. No comfort to the families of those who did die, but damn if I survived that my ass would be in church every Sunday for the rest of my life.

 

[PumpingIron]

the fatalities fell from 9 to 4...

 

[CRUNCH]

CNN just said 7 and one of the local channels has it at 9. Regardless, if it's less than 10 it would be incredible!

 

[CRUNCH]

Now I just heard the 4 also.

 

[PumpingIron]

Like 62 injured though...and a few of the elementary school kids from the bus are in the hospital as well...

I'm interested to see what the fed. gov't comes up with in their investigation.

 

[CRUNCH]

Like 62 injured though...and a few of the elementary school kids from the bus are in the hospital as well...

I'm interested to see what the fed. gov't comes up with in their investigation.

I'm pretty sure there will be some heads rolling big time in the end.

I used to live near Stillwater, MN (E of Mpls), the bridge there that crosses over into Wisconsin is in incredibly bad shape. There are letters by transportation officials going back to the 50's that say it needs to be replaced. My parents still drive over that one several times per week. When you're on it with a large semi, you can feel it shake.

Everytime something tries to get done about replacing it, the local historical society and the Sierra club all start lawsuits that some stupid weed in the river or something will get upset with new construction. Idiots. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to them.

 

[bioman]

You can do bridge construction without bothering any habitat...I've overseen that kinda stuff before so whomever is protesting is full of poo.

 

[CRUNCH]

The Sierra Club has been the biggest problem, and I do applaud some of the stuff they do to protect the environment, but they have been terrible with allowing a new bridge to go in there. So instead, traffic sits backed up on the weekends, sometime for several hours, while that lift bridge goes up/down all day for boats. Not exactly great for the environment either.

 

[Sunder]

I'm just glad you weren't on the bridge when it happened Crunch. That's some scary stuff!

Sad but true - global disasters are "easier" to handle if you don't "know" any of the victims.

I know I'll never cross a bridge the same way again. I remember crossing the bridge(s) in the Florida Keys...it can be a vulnerable feeling.

 

[CRUNCH]

We're heading into Mpls today (but would not have taken that bridge anyway) and again on Sat (that would have been this bridge). Now I'm wondering about any other bridges on the way!

 

[CDB]

I know I'll never cross a bridge the same way again. I remember crossing the bridge(s) in the Florida Keys...it can be a vulnerable feeling.

I never did. I always felt vulnerable. Same in planes or driving through tunnels. I feel fine in a helicopter oddly enough, maybe because the controls are right there so I don't preceive a complete lack of control of the situation, even though I can't fly one for ****.

 

[snakebyte05]

http://flickr.com/photos/eb78/sets/72157601157131324/ Some interesting pictures of the bridge after math.

 

[Iron Warrior]

I heard in sports radio last night (JT The Brick's show) that they were gonna start fixing these problem within 1-2 years from now, I wonder how the city can explain this because it seems that they must have known something was wrong.

 

[CRUNCH]

We keep hearing conflicting stuff about what shape the bridge was in, what it needed, etc... I think behind the scenes there is a whole lot of ass-covering going on right now.

We were just up there, maybe a couple miles from the bridge for some appointments. On 35W just before they had everything closed off. Lots of RV/bus type Red Cross vehicles everywhere.

 

[bioman]

I'd hate to be the inspector or engineering group that gave the bridge a passing grade.


Bet they're pooping bricks about now.

And Sierra Club can be very good. The national group is more conservative than many think. It's the local chapters that fock sh!t up. You'll get some uber-hippy elected as president and they go on a crusade, pizz everyone off and make the orginization look really bad.

On the whole, that's nobody's fault except the SC's. They need to standardize the message and oversee the locals more.

 

[jmh80]

As a chemical engineer - I'll give my take.
I'm not a civil, for sure.

Seems to me when I look at the bridge that I don't see pure steel trusses and joints. I see some concrete also.
I'm pretty sure these 2 materials expand and contract at different rates (during the summer and winter respectively).

Maybe, just maybe, one of the materials wasn't allowed to grow or contract as it wanted to (the steel for instance). This may have prematurely fatigued joints in the truss structure. One truss joint fails means the rest have to make up a ton of force. They may not have been designed to do that.
Then, you'd have failure of the structure.

Anyway - that's my total un-expert take.
Probably off like a hurricane forecast.


As a side note - I'm not sure I'd blame the greenies just yet.
It's possible they protested maintenance/construction on the bridge.
But - if the government wants to get something done, they can bulldoze the greenies over.

I think this all has to do with the BUDGET.
Someone didn't want to spend money on the roads/bridges.
I live in Louisiana - which has some of the worst maintained roads in the country. I know the above sentence well. (Except here the money marked for the Dept. of Transporation for the roads/interstates ends up in someone's back pocket that is a family member of a senator or the governor.)

Hopefully we get a real root cause from an engineering stand point. I seriously doubt the true story as to why this bridge reached the condition it was in will ever come out.

 

[bioman]

They weren't protesting that particular bridge,it's a different one in minneapolis.

I'm guessing years of road salting had an effect as well.

 

[anabolicrhino]

A brighter note, I learned that the Mississippi river runs through Minnesota.

NYC is a bridge nightmare waiting to happen

Brooklyn Bridge rated worse than doomed span

oh and about 70,000 more bridges across the USA rated as structurally deficient
70,000 bridges across America are rated structurally deficient, experts - Pravda.Ru

 

[CRUNCH]

Dontcha just love the media Anabolicrhino???? We've learned that our entire intfrastructure is teetering on the edge of distruction.

 

[bioman]

Just stay home and stop paying taxes :twisted:

 

[spunkles182]

A brighter note, I learned that the Mississippi river runs through Minnesota.

NYC is a bridge nightmare waiting to happen

Brooklyn Bridge rated worse than doomed span

oh and about 70,000 more bridges across the USA rated as structurally deficient
70,000 bridges across America are rated structurally deficient, experts - Pravda.Ru

God people just love to freak out and act like experts on things they know nothing about. We have no idea what caused the bridge to fall. We have no idea if any of the deficiencies in the report had anything to do with the collapse. We know nothing yet. they are still trying to get the dead bodies out of the river.

oh and a little advice i learned from this. I was on the cedar ave bridge when I35 went down. I wouldve been on I35 but due to the road construction the exit i needed was closed. But make sure youre family knows how to text message. Because when this happened the phone lines were busy for several hours and the only way to get a message out was to text message. needless to say my parents didnt know how to txt message and were freaking out.

 

[CRUNCH]

God people just love to freak out and act like experts on things they know nothing about. We have no idea what caused the bridge to fall. We have no idea if any of the deficiencies in the report had anything to do with the collapse. We know nothing yet. they are still trying to get the dead bodies out of the river.

oh and a little advice i learned from this. I was on the cedar ave bridge when I35 went down. I wouldve been on I35 but due to the road construction the exit i needed was closed. But make sure youre family knows how to text message. Because when this happened the phone lines were busy for several hours and the only way to get a message out was to text message. needless to say my parents didnt know how to txt message and were freaking out.

Bet you never thought a closed exit would turn out to be a good thing!! Glad you're ok man.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I believe the experts are the ones coming out and saying these bridges have been rated in poor contruction standards.

 

[snakebyte05]

I know that it was the minnesota department of transportation that put out a report saying there was need for repairs on 35w last year in may, they were working on it this summer, we just have no idea if it was any of the things that needed working on that caused this or if it was just a freak accident.

 

[spunkles182]

I'm pretty sure there will be some heads rolling big time in the end.

I used to live near Stillwater, MN (E of Mpls), the bridge there that crosses over into Wisconsin is in incredibly bad shape. There are letters by transportation officials going back to the 50's that say it needs to be replaced. My parents still drive over that one several times per week. When you're on it with a large semi, you can feel it shake.

Everytime something tries to get done about replacing it, the local historical society and the Sierra club all start lawsuits that some stupid weed in the river or something will get upset with new construction. Idiots. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to them.

Its funny. I actually heard about the stillwater bridge on the news tonight. I beleive the 35w and 35e bridges were roughly the same "rating" at 50 out of 100. The stillwater bridge was 2.5 out of 100. I wish someone would explain what that means though. I thought 50 out of 100 sounded bad. but 2.5?!?

 

[spunkles182]

I know that it was the minnesota department of transportation that put out a report saying there was need for repairs on 35w last year in may, they were working on it this summer, we just have no idea if it was any of the things that needed working on that caused this or if it was just a freak accident.

:goodpost:

exactly. but the politicans are aready trying to use it to their advantage. "we need higher taxes", "we need more funding". no we dont. they have taken over 1 billion dollars from transportion funding to expand the light rail.

 

[spunkles182]

Bet you never thought a closed exit would turn out to be a good thing!! Glad you're ok man.

thanks. i just hope i dont know anyone who died. I came close to one though. A lady at where i had an internship last summer passed away, even though i didnt directly work with her in anyway though. I only found out by an email for a Memorial Fund.
if anyone is interested:
http://www.thrivent.com/sitenew/engebretsen.html?wsdate=08032007&wssrc=whatsnew&wssubject=engebretsen

 

[CRUNCH]

Its funny. I actually heard about the stillwater bridge on the news tonight. I beleive the 35w and 35e bridges were roughly the same "rating" at 50 out of 100. The stillwater bridge was 2.5 out of 100. I wish someone would explain what that means though. I thought 50 out of 100 sounded bad. but 2.5?!?

Somehting from the Stillwater Gazette: Stillwater Gazette - News

'Truly an incredible disaster'; St. Croix Valley natives and residents witness Interstate 35W bridge collapse firsthand

STILLWATER - Lake Elmo native Jon Cole was sleeping in his Northeast Minneapolis condominium on Wednesday evening, still recovering from working the overnight shift at Hennepin County Medical Center.

He awoke to answer a phone call from a friend and shortly into their conversation, his friend told him the Interstate 35W bridge had just collapsed.

"That's when I looked out my window and saw the plumes of dark black smoke," said Cole, who lives about four blocks northwest of the bridge. "I threw on a pair of scrubs, grabbed my work bag, and rode my bike across the river."

At about 6:10 p.m. Wednesday, the I-35W bridge collapsed into the Mississippi River, plunging several vehicles into the water 64 feet below. At least five people were killed and 79 injured in the disaster.

Officials identified the dead as Sherry Engebretsen, 60, of suburban Shoreview; Julia Blackhawk, 32, of Savage; Patrick Holmes, 36, of Moundsview; and Artemio Trinidad-Mena, 29, of Minneapolis.

Cole, 28, said he didn't fully realize the gravity of the event until he rode out onto the Stone Arch Bridge and saw the remains of I-35W.

"I saw the bridge in the river, and that is when it really hit me that this was truly an incredible disaster for the community," he said. "I was shocked, and so were a lot of other people who had gathered to watch the scene. It was eerie."

Meanwhile, driving below the Stone Arch Bridge on West River Road, Stillwater native Josh Peterson's drive home was interrupted by a booming crash behind him. As he glanced into his rearview mirror, Peterson realized the bridge usually above him during his daily commute was no longer in sight.

"I just heard a noise, I couldn't even describe it," Peterson said, recalling the horrific events. "I could see the dust and whatever up in the air in my rearview, so I turned around. I could definitely tell it didn't sound good.

"I heard it over my radio and I had my radio pretty loud at the time. It was just a loud bang," he said. "I was pretty aware right away it was something wrong. I drive under the bridge everyday."

Peterson, about four blocks away at the time of the crash, immediately drove back to the scene, becoming one the first responders to the wreckage, along with a few bikers, pedestrians and Minneapolis Police.

Reaching the riverbank, he scanned the water for any submerged vehicles. Finding none, Peterson began helping people off of the concrete rubble.



"Everyone was pretty quiet, most people were just in shock. They didn't know what was going on," Peterson said. "There was more emotion coming out of the bystanders than the people coming off the bridge - they were just in a state of shock."

After a few minutes, police and emergency crews hurriedly rushed people off of the razed bridge, concerned that a burning truck on the crumbled bridge might explode.

"I was just trying to figure out in what way I could help, right in my direct area most of the people I saw were OK," Peterson said. "I tried to get up onto the bridge, but that's when cops started rushing people off."

At about that same time, Stillwater resident Andy Knaak was driving on the Stone Arch Bridge. Going to a concert at the Minnesota Zoo, his family had considered taking Interstate 35E, but eventually decided I-35W would be fine.

"We saw all of that road construction and thought, 'Aw gosh, this is a bad idea.' And then traffic came to a dead stop," Knaak said.

Seconds later, police cars zoomed past and Knaak saw smoke and dust billowing ahead. The group exited the freeway and discovered the catastrophe one they turned onto University Avenue.

"I thought, 'Oh my god, there's no bridge,' and then there was the semi on fire. Seeing that sight I almost felt nauseous," Knaak said. "The idea that the bridge, with all those people and cars on it could have fallen, you couldn't fathom it. I can't describe something like that. I've never seen a disaster like that. It looked like you were watching a movie and the director was going to yell, 'Cut!'"

Minutes after the collapse, emergency crews began helping victims and trying to find any survivors. The Washington County Sheriff's Office on Wednesday sent two boats and a dive team to assist the first responders. Although the dive team was told to standby, Washington County deputy Vue Thao hooked up with a lieutenant from the Minneapolis Police Department and joined rescue efforts. He was able to pull someone from the river who had run from a car on the collapsed bridge.

"He told me, 'As long as I was there, I was going to get to work,'" Washington County Sheriff Bill Hutton said this morning. "He said it was like a scene from L.A., meaning connected to an earthquake."

At presstime today, Thao was on the Mississippi River trying to find any survivors or victims who still may be submerged. Eight Washington County divers are also assisting with efforts.

Running late,

at the right time

Both Knaak and Peterson were off their normal schedules on Wednesday, which may have allowed them to avert disaster.

"After, I thought, 'Wow, if I would have dilly-dallied with getting home I could have certainly been underneath that," Peterson said.

He lives and works about a mile from the site and crosses under where the bridge formerly stood several times a day.

Knaak's trip was a random trek to a concert, making him realize over the past two days how lucky he really was.

"I try not to think about whether or not we could have been on that bridge, but its such a scary thought. I mean - 64 feet to the water."

Is the Lift Bridge safe?

After bridge inspection ratings that called the I-35W bridge "structurally deficient" surfaced, lawmakers called for increased review of bridges across the state, especially those similar to the construction of the collapsed bridge.

Surprisingly, many bridges have been labeled structurally deficient, though safety officials urged the public not to read too much into the designation. More than 70,000 bridges across the country have been given such an evaluation.

The I-35W bridge had a sufficiency rating of 50, while the Historic Stillwater Lift Bridge was given a rating of 42.8 during an inspection last May. A Star Tribune article reported a 2.8 sufficiency rating for the Stillwater bridge, but those numbers were from 2005, before a $5 million repair project was completed.

Minnesota Department of Transportation Bridge Project Manager Jim Lilly said the lift bridge deck measures an 8.0 on a nine-point scale, while the bridge superstructure and substructures were each rated at 6.0. Structurally the bridge is in "good shape," he said. The sufficiency rating accounts for geometric factors, such as the close river level crest below the bridge and the narrowness of the structure.

"When you have things like sufficiency rating, you could have a bridge that is in very good shape, that is still geometrically constrained," Lilly said.

Locals and travelers alike should feel at ease crossing the Stillwater Lift Bridge, MnDOT engineer Todd Clarkowski said.

"The lift bridge is a safe crossing between our states," he said.

Gazette reporter Andrew Wallmeyer and The Associated Press contributed to this article.

 

[snakebyte05]

:goodpost:

exactly. but the politicans are aready trying to use it to their advantage. "we need higher taxes", "we need more funding". no we dont. they have taken over 1 billion dollars from transportion funding to expand the light rail.

Well I think the light rail was a good idea for minneapolis, the only problem is it isn't very useful to a lot of people out of the cities. If they are using that money to expand the light rail out to the suburbs I would say that is good use for it. As far as more taxes, I would gladly pay more taxes to help our highways out, making them larger so rush hour wasn't so bad. There is no reason to sit in your car for a half hour to drive one mile in rush hour.

 

[spunkles182]

Well I think the light rail was a good idea for minneapolis, the only problem is it isn't very useful to a lot of people out of the cities. If they are using that money to expand the light rail out to the suburbs I would say that is good use for it. As far as more taxes, I would gladly pay more taxes to help our highways out, making them larger so rush hour wasn't so bad. There is no reason to sit in your car for a half hour to drive one mile in rush hour.

i couldnt disagree more with the light rail. The Hiawatha lne cost 715million to build and costs 19.85million per year to operate. But the money it recieves from ticket fairs is 7.2 million. so it operates at a loss of 12million per year? Who else besides government would think this is a viable idea?

http://www.metrotransit.org/rail/facts.asp

 

[snakebyte05]

i couldnt disagree more with the light rail. The Hiawatha lne cost 715million to build and costs 19.85million per year to operate. But the money it recieves from ticket fairs is 7.2 million. so it operates at a loss of 12million per year? Who else besides government would think this is a viable idea?

http://www.metrotransit.org/rail/facts.asp

Right now it isn't making much, but If the expanded it to suburbs I think they would get much more business. It would be much easier to drive to a station by you and ride it downtown than having to drive down their and pay for parking.

 

[spunkles182]

Right now it isn't making much, but If the expanded it to suburbs I think they would get much more business. It would be much easier to drive to a station by you and ride it downtown than having to drive down their and pay for parking.

i would challenge you to find me one light rail system in the us that makes any money. Nationwide, annual light-rail operating costs ($778.3 million) far exceed fare revenue ($226.1 million); the balance ($552.2 million) is paid for with tax dollars.

http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/light_rail.html

http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=20