Cgkone
Well-known member
Dont a lot of AAS increase igf?
Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1
- Thread starter DemntedCowboy
- Start date
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
Training in general increases igf.
Cgkone
Well-known member
Agreed.
Personally I wouldn't try keto without including AAS. Unless it was for medical reasons.
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
I do keto with carb cycling. Has aided in my growth.
Cgkone
Well-known member
Well that's a little different .
You carb up on training days?
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
I carb up on dinners. I have a very active job, and train intense. I go though glycogen like oxygen. Through testing, I find I can have a couple hundred grams of simple carbs or more with dinner, and next day I am back in ketosis producing ketones.
tyga tyga
Legend
I was waiting for rebuttal on my responses to the linked studies. But, the conversation died.
I’m here to debate not quarrel lol
MrKleen73
Legend
I think the big thing to consider with most of this is these studies are in acute periods, similar to training cycles and what not. People just need to keep that in mind. To make it very basic. Nutrition-wise most of what I will do in a cut is not going to be great for hypertrophy, and most of what I am doing during a bulk is not good for cutting... To dissect that without consideration for the situation, goal or intent is to fail at seeing the bigger picture... When focusing hard on one task all others get less attention. Such is life. Same with focusing on some physique or performance goal. If you want accelerated progress in an area some of the resources used for that progress will come from other areas... Levels of efficiency in areas will change to accommodate the new focus.
Lets all just take a moment to look outside of the petri dishes, and into the organism. Look at how it will adapt to the specific environment we place it in... That we intentionally place it in these environments for specific goals knowing that they may negatively effect other aspects temporarily. Then not look at those expected things and say AHA! That is not good for that... no, but it may very well be good for the intended goal at the time... the body will adjust again when you change the environment. We aren't likely to find true absolutes for most of these things because the body is normally in a transient state of adaptation...
Lets all just take a moment to look outside of the petri dishes, and into the organism. Look at how it will adapt to the specific environment we place it in... That we intentionally place it in these environments for specific goals knowing that they may negatively effect other aspects temporarily. Then not look at those expected things and say AHA! That is not good for that... no, but it may very well be good for the intended goal at the time... the body will adjust again when you change the environment. We aren't likely to find true absolutes for most of these things because the body is normally in a transient state of adaptation...
MrKleen73
Legend
I thought it was well thought out. Also I didn't think you were anything but honorable as usual Sir!
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Oh, come on!!! I saw some likes popping up there and was wondering when you would jump in. I figured you would at least take a side and put up a fight!! Honestly, I've been impressed with jrock645 - he can take a debate and be civil.
Actually - I don't think it really matters in the end either. Like I said, while I may *seem* like I'm anti-keto in this thread, I am not. Just trying to shine light on the entire picture. Like you said, it is often emotionally based and people like to think it is a panacea when it has some down sides too. But it has a strong place in the tool box.
But to your point - I think the IGF1 thing is probably pretty minor and off set by many other factors. Most people don't realize that leptin is anabolic - so dieting reduces that too; but are we going to stop dieting because leptin falls? No. Because there are other chemicals that adjust and protect us and it is not the big deal it could be made out to be. You don't diet unless you have fat to lose, and if you want to lose fat you have to accept the good with the bad.
tyga tyga
Legend
I heart you kleen
HIT4ME
Well-known member
I think this may be a little bit overboard. You could say "I won't diet without AAS because deficits reduce anabolism". You may see a drop in strength on keto at first...due to glycogen depletion and water loss (and the accompanying appearance of smaller muscles) - but muscle wasting during most diets is way over played.
Well then you should not have thought it out so much. You actually went and read the studies and figured it out and left no room for debate
Actually, I think it was good how you kind of caught the different tissues having different reactions. We often forget this - our heard doesn't always respond the same way as our liver, etc. Some thing that are good for our heard are bad for our brain, etc.
I made my last comment before I realized there was an entire other page of comments and this is what I was getting at. If you're afraid of losing muscle, you will never go on a diet if you look at all the minor reductions in anabolism. Look at hairygrandpa!
And good point about the environment - this is the point of having so many pathways....they can all be juggled and adjusted to fit a need; as long as you don't push one of them to the extreme and to the extent that you inhibit something so dramatically it has a problem recovering or you cannot change the situation effectively. This is kind of my point actually - people who are obese have a situation where they are forced to utilize fat for energy because it is so abundant. Then they diet and this makes their stored fat necessary for energy, which skews the pathways even more because now it is abundant AND the only source....but we keep going around on this.
Agreed....what's left to debate there?
Humble
Member
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
Odd, yes. But working none the less. I started following John Keifers carb back loading, but before I was fat adapted.That is very unusual! Carb cycling makes sense under those conditions!
Rocket3015
Legend
I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME !!
hairygrandpa
Legend
I think this may be a little bit overboard. You could say "I won't diet without AAS because deficits reduce anabolism". You may see a drop in strength on keto at first...due to glycogen depletion and water loss (and the accompanying appearance of smaller muscles) - but muscle wasting during most diets is way over played.
Well then you should not have thought it out so much. You actually went and read the studies and figured it out and left no room for debate
Actually, I think it was good how you kind of caught the different tissues having different reactions. We often forget this - our heard doesn't always respond the same way as our liver, etc. Some thing that are good for our heard are bad for our brain, etc.
I made my last comment before I realized there was an entire other page of comments and this is what I was getting at. If you're afraid of losing muscle, you will never go on a diet if you look at all the minor reductions in anabolism. Look at hairygrandpa!
And good point about the environment - this is the point of having so many pathways....they can all be juggled and adjusted to fit a need; as long as you don't push one of them to the extreme and to the extent that you inhibit something so dramatically it has a problem recovering or you cannot change the situation effectively. This is kind of my point actually - people who are obese have a situation where they are forced to utilize fat for energy because it is so abundant. Then they diet and this makes their stored fat necessary for energy, which skews the pathways even more because now it is abundant AND the only source....but we keep going around on this.
Agreed....what's left to debate there?
Why was I mentioned? What did I do wrong again?
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Where do I start???
Sometimes I lie in bed at night wondering, "Where did I go wrong?"
And then I hear a little voice in my head and it says...
"This is going to take more than one night."
-Charlie Brown
Rocket3015
Legend
Where do we start ?????
thebigt
Legend
I bet you don't tell your doctor not to bother with blood work because you are different than everyone else anyway.
I bet my blood is different than yours..wanna bet?:hitwithrock:
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Lol. You mean hematocrit and hemoglobin doesn't carry oxygen, platelets don't participate in clotting, etc. for you?
Your white blood cells aren't made up of monocytes and leukocytes and don't fight invaders like mine?
There ARE variations, I get that, but they are all variations on the same set of rules.
But, to your point, I won't bet you either
well played.
Chados
Well-known member
My mother worked there before
Chados
Well-known member
First off thanks for sharing. I am on a high fat low carb diet because I find it to be the best way to stay shredded year round. When I bulk I add more carbs. The difference between eating carbs (or) fat isn't about burning your body fat, higher carb diets uses carbs as fuel and higher fat uses fat as fuel and that's the fat your burning not the actual bodyfat. Basically both works pretty much just as well. You have soluble fiber from carbs, omega 3s from fats which both work much better than saturated fats or pure sugar so it's more important what kind of fats and carbs rather than how much. This 30 or 130 (seems to be different opinions on this) to keep the brain working is true, my memory says 30. The catch to this? If you don't eat carbs at all the body will automatically produce carbs to keep your brain functioning.
It's well known ketodiets are not the best option to build muscle. You do want some carbs but the amount of carbs one need is very individual and the reason I chose to stay around 200 max is that carbs bloat you and a higher fat diet is to me more pleasant because I stay more dry looking. I eat carbs early in the day when I move around, practise wrestling or go to the gym because that's when I need them.
It's well known ketodiets are not the best option to build muscle. You do want some carbs but the amount of carbs one need is very individual and the reason I chose to stay around 200 max is that carbs bloat you and a higher fat diet is to me more pleasant because I stay more dry looking. I eat carbs early in the day when I move around, practise wrestling or go to the gym because that's when I need them.
Chados
Well-known member
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure you're not actually burning ketones but carbs. I think it's established that carbs should be max 50gr a day to stay in ketosis and it takes about 3 days for your body to jump back to ketosis
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
Not according to the blood tests that I had taken daily, experimenting for myself. I was in nutritional ketosis. If you look in a couple of my logs in the supplement log section, I post the bloods.
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
One example of me being in ketosis after previously of having carbs. Hours later of course.Invalid Link Removed
Chados
Well-known member
Hey looking at your picture you can defend yourself against most people regardless of diets
when you mentioned mk I started doubting my own diet cause I've been on mk since. Is it the almonds or the mk? Hmm..
Chados
Well-known member
Hmm so I got this right? You're carb cycling every day pretty much for dinner?
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
Yes sir, and I literally tested daily my ketones, sometimes multiple times per day to see how long it would take before my liver would begin producing ketones again. I get it. It's weird. My friends on keto say I am an oddity.
Chados
Well-known member
Well if you're some kind of keto machine all good for you haha.
Chados
Well-known member
Sort of. 50-100a day and from personal experience it might help maintaining more after a cycle and I believe one can get away with more cheat meals but from studies it had shown to increase lean muscle mass but increase fat arguably due to people eating more on mk. The fact that it adds lean muscle mass should mean it increases metabolism due to more muscles which in theory should help you lose fat with a good diet which I bet most on mk in the studies were not dieting hard like some of us on the forum. Everything in the studies points at no fatloss while at the same time proves that it should be very possible for anyone not over eating to lean out since we know it adds lean muscle.
thebigt
Legend
Lol. You mean hematocrit and hemoglobin doesn't carry oxygen, platelets don't participate in clotting, etc. for you?
Your white blood cells aren't made up of monocytes and leukocytes and don't fight invaders like mine?
There ARE variations, I get that, but they are all variations on the same set of rules.
But, to your point, I won't bet you either
lol...is there a differentiation between people are different and people are the same with different variations?
jrock645
Well-known member
All i can say right now is my weight change is a but slower than in previous cuts but my waist measurement change is definitely on track. So, i feel like im maximizing muscle kept while steadily losing belly fat. Without bodpod or dexa scans, i wont make audacious claims about gaining muscle while cutting.
Never used MK before. Dropped weight on keto a few times though, and this feels just slightly different.
thebigt
Legend
this is a really good post...nice job!!!
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Understood - my stance was too strong. I don't really mean there are NO differences, but there ARE rules and similarities that apply to all of us. We all use adenosine for energy for instance. We all require water. The list of similarities and hard stop rules far out weighs the variable differences between us.
I think part of the issue is that there are probably hundreds of rules which all have very minor adjustments and interplay - making it very difficult for us to actually understand and predict the small variations. Some of those rules will adjust for environment, some for chemical supply, some for genetics, etc. We do not really know every pathway, nor every chemical which may be bottlenecking a pathway in our system, nor which pathways have been activated to compensate for impaired pathways, etc.
And thus the reason for my overly harsh (and this wrong) stance that we are not all different. It seems like a cop out to me. It is an excuse for people to believe in falsehoods, ignore science, etc. It is something supplement companies DEPEND on people believing. Rather than figure out what is true and what is going on, it is too difficult so we just say, "eh well, everyone is different."
But what about the supplement you have tried and it worked great and then the second time did nothing? Or the time it happened the other way around? Maybe it isn't that everyone is different, but that things are in flux and situations change and understanding THOSE differences has value that is being ignored.
thebigt
Legend
nothing is static, everything is fluid...change is all around
but the answer my friend is blowing in the wind!!!
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Not sure. I am either having a false-positive issue or I cannot seem to find a female that doesn't turn the strip dark...deep psycho. Scratching my head.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Ironically, this just came up during some other research I was doing. It is a mice study, but this is what one would expect in humans as well.
Invalid Link Removed
Basically, exposure to ketogenic diets impairs glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. This impaired sensitivity actually provides some benefits (reduced caloric intake). Addition of carbs reverses this effect, although I would suggest longer term KD post obesity would make this more difficult to change.
Invalid Link Removed
Basically, exposure to ketogenic diets impairs glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. This impaired sensitivity actually provides some benefits (reduced caloric intake). Addition of carbs reverses this effect, although I would suggest longer term KD post obesity would make this more difficult to change.
DemntedCowboy
Well-known member
I seen that one as well while looking into studies on this
justhere4comm
Banned
I've been looking into carb cycling. Anyone have a good plan? There's almost too much information on the net.
DemntedCowboy
Well-known member
Did you see my previous post earlier in the thread:
What I have also read shows that keto works for short blast say may 6 weeks and it would look something like this:
Week 1
Monday-Friday 50%P/50%F/0%C, Saturday and Sunday 50%P/40%F/10%C
Week 2
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/30/20
Week 3
Minday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/20/30
Week 4-6
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/10/40
tyga tyga
Legend
Easiest rule of thumb IF you don’t weigh your carbs is (if you follow high, medium, low, high, medium, low, low ~ assuming 5 meals):
Monday- Cho every meal
Tuesday - cho three meal
Wednesday- no cho
Thurs- cho every meal
Fri- cho three meal
Sat & sun no cho
Once your weight plateaus, reduce Monday’s to cho only at 4 of 5 meals, and reduce the portion of your cho on your medium days.
Rocket3015
Legend
No disrespect to anyone else, in fact I applaud you for taking the time and energy and doing all this research, but I just can't make my nutrition plan this complicated. I shoot for 175-200 grams of protein a day and adjust my fats up or down depending on my goals. Who else here tries to Keep It Simple ?? (KISS)
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Yeah, in all reality there are two things that make up 90% of the results from a diet (common theme in fitness)...Calories and protein. If you get those right, the rest is just gravy.
But different eating styles do play a role in your being able to get those things right and maintain it.
And if you have underlying metabolic issues, then there may be more co.plicated solutions...although eating in a way that fits those metabolic issues is a pretty good band aid...ie if you have damaged carb burning ability, then not eating carbs avoids the problem and can get you where you want to go in the short/medium term.
tyga tyga
Legend
I don’t measure food at all anymore. Prepping for my show in 2016 created a bad relationship with a food scale.
I eye ball everything, if I gain weight I reduce the portion size of the meals.
Intuitive eating should be the way we live but overindulgence is a real thing lol hello obesity epidemic in the US.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Look up carb backloading... Is similar to what ValiantThor08 is doing and I believe not all that uncommon for people who do it to enter ketosis because the body adjusts to only having carbs during certain points of the day. Not sure if valthor is an oddity or an example of how effective carb backloading can be an effective modification of a keto diet.
This is loosely the type of diet I use along with IF a few days a week (14-18hr fast) which is also loose. I think over time you can find what type of diet best suits your body chemistry and goals and follow it "loosely" and still get the best results. Its all about learning what works best.
That said I dont get crazy about it and still eat, cheat and carb up from time to time. But ive also been disciplined and it's allowed me to get down to about 12%bf which at 41 is the best shape of my life.
ValiantThor08
Board Sponsor
Recommend carb backloading. Best of both worlds. Basically you have to be on strict keto until you are adapted. John Kiefer says a couple weeks, I would do it a month before incorporating carbs. Your supposed to eat as many carbs as you want for dinner, on the days you train, but I have carbs every dinner now, and am in ketosis the next day. If you dont want to test your blood ketones, you'll have to judge based on how you feel, whether you are in ketosis while carb backloading.
MrKleen73
Legend
Not exactly, it takes about that to get there but not to get back into it if you barely took yourself out of it.
Just addressing the entire ketosis conversation above here. This is really not that surprising if you really understand the system, so I want to try to explain it a little.
Just going to bullet point and not go nuts here.
1) Once glycogen has been stored in the muscle, it can not be released back into the blood to be used as blood sugar.
2) Increased Insulin Sensitivity helps the body store more glycogen more efficiently, and CBL increases insulin sensitivity
3) The type of carbs used is also important here. If using easily digested carbohydrate source it takes far less time to for the carbohydrate source to clear the blood. CBL recommends easily digested carbs and avoid harder to digest carbs sources...
4) Eating shy of your maximum carb level post workout will result in storing the glycogen and lowering blood sugar drastically, even to the level of hypoglycemia. Hypoglycemia triggers the need for ketones as there is not enough blood sugar for the brain to be comfy. Hence ketones in the system.
As ValiantThor08 mentions he takes in a hundreds of grams of carbs nightly, and that makes sense if I remember correctly he isn't a small guy and with the amount of muscle I have I am supposed to be able to take in a good 600g a day. So if he is doing 300-400 with everything else in a good balance there is not any reason he couldn't be showing some ketosis on the strips.
Now is he in a depleted state? No not at all, his glycogen stores are far from empty, but his blood sugar stays low enough that ketones are needed for when he is just sitting around chilling. When he gets into working out that energy source shifts to using the glycogen stored in the muscle, but the rest of the day he is probably running off of ketones.
I also forgot to mention that it is quite common for people using CBL to go hypoglycemic in their sleep. Another thing pointing toward low enough blood sugar to require the need for ketones.
I think number 1 in this is the part most people actually do not know about and that makes all the difference in the world.