Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1

DemntedCowboy

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The body produces ketones, such as acetone, acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate, during low calorie intake and carbohydrate restriction. Low-carbohydrate diets-sometimes called ketogenic diets-are more effective than low calorie, mixed-or high carbohydrate diets for short-term weight loss. The brain and nervous system use mainly glucose(blood sugar) as fuel but can also use keytones when carbs are unavailable. Keytones, however, suppress the appetite center of the brain, which might explain why low-carb diets cause rapid weight loss. Keytones cause an improved sense of well-being and produce mild euphoria. Ketogenic diets have been used to suppress epileptic seizures since the 1920s. A study from Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm, Sweden showed that ketogenic diets slowed growth rates and suppressed IGF-1 levels in children with epilepsy. IGF-1 is a powerful anabolic hormone produced mainly in the liver in response to growth hormone release. Many bodybuilders follow ketogenic diets to promote fat loss. These diets inhibit IGF-1 production in healthy bodybuilders, which might compromise gains in muscle mass and strength. (Epilepsia, published online)
 
TheSuppGuy

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Im from Stockholm, Sweden, and live very very close to Karolinska University! Haha!
 
DemntedCowboy

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Just to get some discussion going:

Lets see if I can get a few people in here for you: hairygrandpa rtmilburn SFreed Ulfhednar HIT4ME wesb2387 Tank999 DennisTheDane Juicedeez utz BEAST73 Alpha1agreda LeanEngineer coltonwalker Brandinooooo Sparkss blueline438 lifted67 smith_69 Daehlluks FireTitan alphagainz ChocolateClen justhere4comm matt8483 ryane87 nostrum420 mmorso thebigt Dirty Dan Bmac63095 TNlifting Matthersby BloodManor angcd3 habajaba mmorso cwages TheMyth lukehayd thebigt Oconns28 jalfrey bloodnthunder jtmass Martyfnemec christ83189 GrizzleB BOSSMAN chedapalooza BennyMagoo79 Brienn8989 Tbl16 Bman1970 PoSiTiVeFLoW Cgkone LeanEngineer AntM1564 Newth SouthPawSD christ83189 SkRaw85 flandersguy MrKleen73 Whiskey Cscott622 Hyde bloodnthunder Newth love2liftkat stacy1212 RickyBlobby bigbeaph JoePaul39 adammorrow36 Rocket3015 swimfan65 Humble
 
justhere4comm

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I need to go on a cut and soon. I had a friend tell me I'm jacked, and asked 'Creatine'? wink. lol. I just gotta cut the midsection down a tad.
I love ketogenics, but wow, once you drop from it, bam. You gotta take care cuz those carbs come a calling.
 
DemntedCowboy

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I need to go on a cut and soon. I had a friend tell me I'm jacked, and asked 'Creatine'? wink. lol. I just gotta cut the midsection down a tad.
Well, from what I have read Keto does work good for short periods. Such as 6 weeks, and going complete Keto Monday-Friday and adding Carbs back in on the weekend. But no longer than 6 weeks. And we must use the same "Creatine". Lol
 

jrock645

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I don’t know. It takes around 6 weeks of proper keto before my body fully makes the switch and things really take off and I start feeling like I’m running off of a nuclear reactor. I feel distinctly different stages of keto. At two weeks, there’s an adjustment, another shift at about a month and then he big one at 6 weeks or so. Why stop just when it’s getting good?
 
DemntedCowboy

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I don’t know. It takes around 6 weeks of proper keto before my body fully makes the switch and things really take off and I start feeling like I’m running off of a nuclear reactor. I feel distinctly different stages of keto. At two weeks, there’s an adjustment, another shift at about a month and then he big one at 6 weeks or so. Why stop just when it’s getting good?
Your not stopping it. Your running it Monday-Friday every week, and reintroducing carbs on the weekends, then going back to Keto Monday-Friday for a total of 6 weeks. And you say why stop when its getting good, but if its suppressing IGF and your losing muscle, is it really good.
 

jrock645

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Your not stopping it. Your running it Monday-Friday every week, and reintroducing carbs on the weekends, then going back to Keto Monday-Friday for a total of 6 weeks. And you say why stop when its getting good, but if its suppressing IGF and your losing muscle, is it really good.
In my experience, you’re not losing muscle as long as you’re actively burning fat.
 
DemntedCowboy

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In my experience, you’re not losing muscle as long as you’re actively burning fat.
But as you see in my post studies show it suppresses IGF so you ain't building muscle
 

jrock645

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But as you see in my post studies show it suppresses IGF so you ain't building muscle
When does anyone build muscle on a cut? Keto is a weight loss method. It’d be seriously misguided to ever go into a weight loss phase expecting to build muscle.
 

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But as you see in my post studies show it suppresses IGF so you ain't building muscle
When does anyone build muscle on a cut? Keto is a weight loss method. It’d be seriously misguided to ever go into a weight loss phase expecting to build muscle.
 
DemntedCowboy

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When does anyone build muscle on a cut? Keto is a weight loss method. It’d be seriously misguided to ever go into a weight loss phase expecting to build muscle.
True but you want to maintain muscle and the suppression of IGF is not initiative for that either.
 
T3x

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I have been keto for 2 years now for epilepsy. It has done wonders for controlling breakthrough seizures. My last lab work (2 monthd ago) igf-1 was high (no tumor, yet). I have no problems adding muscle.
 
jtmass

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The one reason why I just do everything traditional is because they work for me without any trouble. When I want to cut I reduce my carb and keep the protein a little high. I think the best diet is when you can have a Balanced Diet. So, all this carb cycling, Keto diets etc.. doesn't interest me.
 
Rocket3015

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The one reason why I just do everything traditional is because they work for me without any trouble. When I want to cut I reduce my carb and keep the protein a little high. I think the best diet is when you can have a Balanced Diet. So, all this carb cycling, Keto diets etc.. doesn't interest me.
jtmass I'm with you on this, maybe I'm just too old to change.
 
BEAST73

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When does anyone build muscle on a cut? Keto is a weight loss method. It’d be seriously misguided to ever go into a weight loss phase expecting to build muscle.
I’am on a cut now and building muscle.
 
HIT4ME

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Keto diets get too much hype in the media. The cells in our body run better on glucose, they are designed to run on glucose and there is no way around this. Fat is a "backup" plan. There are all kinds of pathways in our bodies that can break, and evolution has created redundancy in these pathways - when one breaks or is impaired or just isn't available because of a lack of chemical supply - we have 2 or 3 ways to accomplish the task.

This is true of energy production - glucose is preferred, but when sh1t goes wrong, we have backups. And energy supply has to be tightly regulated to demand - so not only is fat the backup, but it's also the solution to the situation where supply is outpacing demand.

Elevated glucose? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? hit the insulin harder and start converting it to fat. Elevated fat? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? Start packing it into storage and get it out of the blood.

The issue is - obese people become REALLY good at burning fat and this makes burning carbs difficult. This means carbs can't be burned, so hit the insulin harder and start converting to fat.

Only problem is, this is like converting gasoline to rocket fuel. Once you make a carb into fat - you need to burn more energy to burn the same amount of mass.

A low carb diet circumvents this entire process of handling carbs though. It eliminates the broken pathway altogether. It just focuses on the one pathway that obese people have already gotten good at using. Unfortunately, caloric deficits, starvation and low carb diets all make this broken pathway even more broken...so once they are lean, they still have a fat burning switch turned up full blast and carbs make them rebound hard.

At least that's the light version of my theory..
 
DemntedCowboy

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Keto diets get too much hype in the media. The cells in our body run better on glucose, they are designed to run on glucose and there is no way around this. Fat is a "backup" plan. There are all kinds of pathways in our bodies that can break, and evolution has created redundancy in these pathways - when one breaks or is impaired or just isn't available because of a lack of chemical supply - we have 2 or 3 ways to accomplish the task.

This is true of energy production - glucose is preferred, but when sh1t goes wrong, we have backups. And energy supply has to be tightly regulated to demand - so not only is fat the backup, but it's also the solution to the situation where supply is outpacing demand.

Elevated glucose? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? hit the insulin harder and start converting it to fat. Elevated fat? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? Start packing it into storage and get it out of the blood.

The issue is - obese people become REALLY good at burning fat and this makes burning carbs difficult. This means carbs can't be burned, so hit the insulin harder and start converting to fat.

Only problem is, this is like converting gasoline to rocket fuel. Once you make a carb into fat - you need to burn more energy to burn the same amount of mass.

A low carb diet circumvents this entire process of handling carbs though. It eliminates the broken pathway altogether. It just focuses on the one pathway that obese people have already gotten good at using. Unfortunately, caloric deficits, starvation and low carb diets all make this broken pathway even more broken...so once they are lean, they still have a fat burning switch turned up full blast and carbs make them rebound hard.

At least that's the light version of my theory..
Thanks for the input. What I have also read shows that keto works for short blast say may 6 weeks and it would look something like this:

Week 1
Monday-Friday 50%P/50%F/0%C, Saturday and Sunday 50%P/40%F/10%C

Week 2
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/30/20

Week 3
Minday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/20/30

Week 4-6
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/10/40
 

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Tyson fury used keto to lose 140 lbs in a year before last nights fight. So we know it can work for fat loss plus it can enable you
to rise from the dead......
 
Humble

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Keto diets get too much hype in the media. The cells in our body run better on glucose, they are designed to run on glucose and there is no way around this. Fat is a "backup" plan. There are all kinds of pathways in our bodies that can break, and evolution has created redundancy in these pathways - when one breaks or is impaired or just isn't available because of a lack of chemical supply - we have 2 or 3 ways to accomplish the task.

This is true of energy production - glucose is preferred, but when sh1t goes wrong, we have backups. And energy supply has to be tightly regulated to demand - so not only is fat the backup, but it's also the solution to the situation where supply is outpacing demand.

Elevated glucose? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? hit the insulin harder and start converting it to fat. Elevated fat? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? Start packing it into storage and get it out of the blood.

The issue is - obese people become REALLY good at burning fat and this makes burning carbs difficult. This means carbs can't be burned, so hit the insulin harder and start converting to fat.

Only problem is, this is like converting gasoline to rocket fuel. Once you make a carb into fat - you need to burn more energy to burn the same amount of mass.

A low carb diet circumvents this entire process of handling carbs though. It eliminates the broken pathway altogether. It just focuses on the one pathway that obese people have already gotten good at using. Unfortunately, caloric deficits, starvation and low carb diets all make this broken pathway even more broken...so once they are lean, they still have a fat burning switch turned up full blast and carbs make them rebound hard.

At least that's the light version of my theory..
For the obese, the theory is that going on a Keto diet resets insulin sensitivity and muscle cells are able to accept glucose again. This is consistent with my experience on a strict Keto diet for four months.
 
SFreed

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Keto diets get too much hype in the media. The cells in our body run better on glucose, they are designed to run on glucose and there is no way around this. Fat is a "backup" plan. There are all kinds of pathways in our bodies that can break, and evolution has created redundancy in these pathways - when one breaks or is impaired or just isn't available because of a lack of chemical supply - we have 2 or 3 ways to accomplish the task.

This is true of energy production - glucose is preferred, but when sh1t goes wrong, we have backups. And energy supply has to be tightly regulated to demand - so not only is fat the backup, but it's also the solution to the situation where supply is outpacing demand.

Elevated glucose? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? hit the insulin harder and start converting it to fat. Elevated fat? Release insulin and burn what you can. Still elevated? Start packing it into storage and get it out of the blood.

The issue is - obese people become REALLY good at burning fat and this makes burning carbs difficult. This means carbs can't be burned, so hit the insulin harder and start converting to fat.

Only problem is, this is like converting gasoline to rocket fuel. Once you make a carb into fat - you need to burn more energy to burn the same amount of mass.

A low carb diet circumvents this entire process of handling carbs though. It eliminates the broken pathway altogether. It just focuses on the one pathway that obese people have already gotten good at using. Unfortunately, caloric deficits, starvation and low carb diets all make this broken pathway even more broken...so once they are lean, they still have a fat burning switch turned up full blast and carbs make them rebound hard.

At least that's the light version of my theory..
I'm glad we got the "light" version ;-)
 
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HIT4ME

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For the obese, the theory is that going on a Keto diet resets insulin sensitivity and muscle cells are able to accept glucose again. This is consistent with my experience on a strict Keto diet for four months.
I understand that...but it can actually increase insulin resistance. You have stayed strict keto for months...try going off.
 
HIT4ME

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Thanks for the input. What I have also read shows that keto works for short blast say may 6 weeks and it would look something like this:

Week 1
Monday-Friday 50%P/50%F/0%C, Saturday and Sunday 50%P/40%F/10%C

Week 2
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/30/20

Week 3
Minday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/20/30

Week 4-6
Monday-Friday 50/50/0, Saturday-Sunday 50/10/40
This is likely a good way to do it. I view keto as an effective tool or tactic, but not a good long term or sole strategy. Kind of like trying to use a hammer...it works great, but don't try to put screws into drywall with it.

Tyson fury used keto to lose 140 lbs in a year before last nights fight. So we know it can work for fat loss plus it can enable you
to rise from the dead......
Lol, yeah...it will definately work on people. It avoids the underlying metabolic issues altogether. So it can be effective.

I'm glad we got the "light" version ;-)
Where you been?

I have some crazy theories that nobody is ready for, you know that.
 
thebigt

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I have low blood sugar-no keto for me..but gda's do seem to work really well for me-it takes some monitoring though.
 
SFreed

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.................
Where you been?

I have some crazy theories that nobody is ready for, you know that.
Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
 
Humble

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I understand that...but it can actually increase insulin resistance. You have stayed strict keto for months...try going off.
Huh? I did go off. No more insulin resistance.
 
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Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
Came back to add that when I woke up this morning my dyck was orange. Pretty sure that's an indication that I have reached a state of Cheetos-sis.
 
thebigt

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Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
I prefer the fritos-genic diet.

probably same effect though!!!
 

jrock645

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I understand that...but it can actually increase insulin resistance. You have stayed strict keto for months...try going off.
But if you got obese because you’re insulin resistant, which is typical, I fail to see how keto can be blamed for insulin resistance if you already were. Further, the suggestion of “try coming off” makes little sense. The point of keto, for a lot of people, is their body just can’t handle carbs very well. Done properly, there is little reason to come off for the average person. We’re not talking about peak athletic performance, we’re talking about overall health and “need” in the true sense of the word in hunter gatherer terms.
 
HIT4ME

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Huh? I did go off. No more insulin resistance.
Yeah, given the way it was worded it sounded like you have been on it for months. How did and are you testing insulin resistance?

It is pretty well established that high fat diets cause insulin resistance. It is actually the usual method for inducing diabetes in animals to make them diabetic...not sugar or carbs. Sure, the most effective way is high fat AND high carbs.

But what you are highlighting is the fact that the issue is much more complicated than most even realize. Insulin is just one factor and it gets way too much credit...although a ketogenic diet can reduce insulin spikes, and in the case where it leads to a caloric deficit it will reduce insulin levels, any caloric deficit will reduce insulin levels. And reduced insulin = impaired carb utilization through reduced glut4 availability.

Of course, at first it may make things better, because high levels of insulin typically trigger increased glut4 translocation, and when this happens and fuel levels remain high anyway, insulin binding to glut4 will basically reduce all the available glut4 to nothing. In this case when you go keto (or any diet) and insulin drops...the glut4 frees up and carb tolerance may actually increase through that mechanism...but with longer periods of low insulin, glut4 receptors will be eliminated and insulin will become slightly less effective.


But if you got obese because you’re insulin resistant, which is typical, I fail to see how keto can be blamed for insulin resistance if you already were. Further, the suggestion of “try coming off” makes little sense. The point of keto, for a lot of people, is their body just can’t handle carbs very well. Done properly, there is little reason to come off for the average person. We’re not talking about peak athletic performance, we’re talking about overall health and “need” in the true sense of the word in hunter gatherer terms.
The "your body can't handle carbs very well" part is the entire point.

Typically one does not become obese because they are insulin resistant. They become insulin resistant and obese because they have high levels of fuel substrate in their blood that they cannot burn and even have a hard time storing.

When you have a high level of calories available and cannot burn them, you cannot just leave them in your blood as the carbs and fat will create toxic results. So you have to store them. And when fat is abundant - as when you become obese - your body has to do something. And in response, it switches its energy production over to burn fat...an attempt to burn as much as possible. Obese people become very efficient at burning fat for energy. But since they get maybe (for example) 75% of their energy from fat and 25% from carbs, after that ...the carbs back up because they cannot be burned. They become good at burning fat and bad at burning carbs.

So...the answer? Avoid carbs altogether, because the body cannot handle them.

So you go on a keto diet and...now your body has no carb sources beyond gluconeogenesis... and now you are at 90-95% fat use for fuel. Great, I am a fat burning furnace.

Except, you took the problem that got you in trouble in the first place - elevated fat and carb intolerance - and made it worse. Now, when you go off, you have a host of rebound concerns.

Not to mention it can become very difficult to lose weight when you get twice the energy from every pound as if you were burning carbs.

But, as you said, this can be a life long situation for some people...why go off?

Well, you can take that approach if you prefer using band aids over healing cuts. Rather than fix the broken health issue, the keto diet just avoids that pathway altogether.

Further, unless you are epileptic, the idea that anyone stays on a keto diet for life is a mistake. Research does indicate that keto diets fail long-term like any other diet and the idea of getting your energy from fat has been known to have health consequences for quite some time. Just to name one big issue - a heart that runs in fat will become unhealthy for a number of reasons. It just is not healthy long-term despite what they say in the internet and in newspapers. Then again, they also act like sodium is the sole reason for high blood pressure in the news. But if you are epileptic, the risk may be worth the benefit of going low carb long term.

Still, I don't want to be too harsh on keto diets. It is a tool that can be effective. As you point out, if you cannot lose weight because you have trouble with carbs (which is usually caused by an abundance of fats)...then avoiding the carb problem altogether may be an effective short or mid-term tactic.
 
HIT4ME

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Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
Came back to add that when I woke up this morning my dyck was orange. Pretty sure that's an indication that I have reached a state of Cheetos-sis.
I prefer the fritos-genic diet.

probably same effect though!!!
I have tried both of these diets. They are incredibly easy to stick to. I practically default to one of these two diets when I fall of other diets. Sometimes I do a cyclical fritos-cheetos diet.

The orange dyck brings all the girls to the yard as well.
 

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So what is the best strategy to cycling back off Leto without a rebound? Or to repair the broken Pathway that causes you to not use carbs well? With threads like this I can never tell if you guys are referring to strict 7 day a week keto as being back long term (which even Lyle McDonald said it was) or if you mean any keto diet including CKD which is supposed to combat that long term problem of insulin resistance. A similar strategy being Skip Loading.
 
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So what is the best strategy to cycling back off Leto without a rebound? Or to repair the broken Pathway that causes you to not use carbs well? With threads like this I can never tell if you guys are referring to strict 7 day a week keto as being back long term (which even Lyle McDonald said it was) or if you mean any keto diet including CKD which is supposed to combat that long term problem of insulin resistance. A similar strategy being Skip Loading.
I think kiefer suggests 25g weekly, obviously lowering fat as you add CHO (This is in reference to CNS not strict Keto or “clinical Keto”)
 

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Nice. Thank you.

So side question. Would taking a supplement that increases IGF-1 help combat the sides of long term CKD?
 

jrock645

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Yeah, given the way it was worded it sounded like you have been on it for months. How did and are you testing insulin resistance?

It is pretty well established that high fat diets cause insulin resistance. It is actually the usual method for inducing diabetes in animals to make them diabetic...not sugar or carbs. Sure, the most effective way is high fat AND high carbs.

But what you are highlighting is the fact that the issue is much more complicated than most even realize. Insulin is just one factor and it gets way too much credit...although a ketogenic diet can reduce insulin spikes, and in the case where it leads to a caloric deficit it will reduce insulin levels, any caloric deficit will reduce insulin levels. And reduced insulin = impaired carb utilization through reduced glut4 availability.

Of course, at first it may make things better, because high levels of insulin typically trigger increased glut4 translocation, and when this happens and fuel levels remain high anyway, insulin binding to glut4 will basically reduce all the available glut4 to nothing. In this case when you go keto (or any diet) and insulin drops...the glut4 frees up and carb tolerance may actually increase through that mechanism...but with longer periods of low insulin, glut4 receptors will be eliminated and insulin will become slightly less effective.




The "your body can't handle carbs very well" part is the entire point.

Typically one does not become obese because they are insulin resistant. They become insulin resistant and obese because they have high levels of fuel substrate in their blood that they cannot burn and even have a hard time storing.

When you have a high level of calories available and cannot burn them, you cannot just leave them in your blood as the carbs and fat will create toxic results. So you have to store them. And when fat is abundant - as when you become obese - your body has to do something. And in response, it switches its energy production over to burn fat...an attempt to burn as much as possible. Obese people become very efficient at burning fat for energy. But since they get maybe (for example) 75% of their energy from fat and 25% from carbs, after that ...the carbs back up because they cannot be burned. They become good at burning fat and bad at burning carbs.

So...the answer? Avoid carbs altogether, because the body cannot handle them.

So you go on a keto diet and...now your body has no carb sources beyond gluconeogenesis... and now you are at 90-95% fat use for fuel. Great, I am a fat burning furnace.

Except, you took the problem that got you in trouble in the first place - elevated fat and carb intolerance - and made it worse. Now, when you go off, you have a host of rebound concerns.

Not to mention it can become very difficult to lose weight when you get twice the energy from every pound as if you were burning carbs.

But, as you said, this can be a life long situation for some people...why go off?

Well, you can take that approach if you prefer using band aids over healing cuts. Rather than fix the broken health issue, the keto diet just avoids that pathway altogether.

Further, unless you are epileptic, the idea that anyone stays on a keto diet for life is a mistake. Research does indicate that keto diets fail long-term like any other diet and the idea of getting your energy from fat has been known to have health consequences for quite some time. Just to name one big issue - a heart that runs in fat will become unhealthy for a number of reasons. It just is not healthy long-term despite what they say in the internet and in newspapers. Then again, they also act like sodium is the sole reason for high blood pressure in the news. But if you are epileptic, the risk may be worth the benefit of going low carb long term.

Still, I don't want to be too harsh on keto diets. It is a tool that can be effective. As you point out, if you cannot lose weight because you have trouble with carbs (which is usually caused by an abundance of fats)...then avoiding the carb problem altogether may be an effective short or mid-term tactic.
“The art and science of low carbohydrate living” debunks most of what you just said. The biggest misconception about low carb diets is that it’s new. Been around a long time, before anyone cared about naming it and certainly before it was developed for epileptics.

And again, you’re ignoring that varying levels of insulin resistance can cause and lead to obesity. You operate entirely off of the idea that the onset of insulin resistance doesn’t happen until you’re obesity. That is utterly false. Not handling carbs very well is what got the, fat. It didn’t happen exclusively once they got fat.
 
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“The art and science of low carbohydrate living” debunks most of what you just said. The biggest misconception about low carb diets is that it’s new. Been around a long time, before anyone cared about naming it and certainly before it was developed for epileptics.

And again, you’re ignoring that varying levels of insulin resistance can cause and lead to obesity. You operate entirely off of the idea that the onset of insulin resistance doesn’t happen until you’re obesity. That is utterly false. Not handling carbs very well is what got the, fat. It didn’t happen exclusively once they got fat.
First off...the idea that a low carb diet isn't new is pretty humorous. Of course it isn't new....if it was we would not have evolutionary chemistry to handle it.

Second off...I am not ignoring anything. I am just following the actual science - stuff that has been observed and utilized in actual studies for decades with reliability.

I never said insulin resistance does not occur until you are obese. What I said was that insulin resistance is caused by an excess of energy substrate.

The idea that that book "debunks" most of what I said above, which again is based on scientific research and a basic understanding of the kreb's cycle - makes me question the rigor of the research behind the book.

As I said above - just about any review of any diabetic study out there where the experiment requires inducing diabetes in an animal starts off with giving the animals a high fat diet. It is THE reliable way to induce insulin resistance.

But also, keep in mind I have said that insulin itself is only part of the puzzle and not the entire story. But it is over played because the guys writing low carb books do not understand much beyond basic insulin function.

But, just in case I can learn something - let's humor what you say....

So what exactly causes insulin resistance?
 
Humble

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Hey HIT4ME,

I don’t want to address every point you are making. Some make sense to me and others don’t. But I do want to address one distinction that supports your argument that Keto causes insulin resistance. My original point was that for OBESE people a calorie restricted Keto diet resets the pancreas to pulse insulin at a rate that increases muscle receptor sensitivity. This webpage summarizes my understanding in plain language:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-eating-low-carb-cause-insulin-resistance/

“It appears that weight loss is the deciding factor, and since low carb diets tend to be more effective at inducing weight loss in subjects, they also tend to be better at reducing insulin resistance in insulin-resistant, overweight people. Once you’re lean and weight stable, though, very low carb diets (less than 10% of calories from carbs) can reduce insulin sensitivity. This is normal and totally necessary in the context of a very low carb diet. If we didn’t become insulin resistant while eating very low carb, our brain wouldn’t be able to get the glucose it needed to keep us alive.”

Now I agree with all but the last sentence in that statement. My understanding is the brain ? only needs 20 grams of carbohydrates (glucose) daily to function properly. And metabolically the brain has first claim on blood glucose.

That said, my weight loss experience as an obese person (60 lbs weight loss in 4 months on a very calorie restrictive Keto diet in 2016) is consistent with the above narrative.

To make a long story short, I think you were arguing that insulin resistance can be INCREASED for the non-obese on a low-calorie Keto diet, then we can probably agree.

Good stuff! Thanks, HIT4ME!
 

Jstrong20

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True but you want to maintain muscle and the suppression of IGF is not initiative for that either.
I highly doubt altering igf 1 levels within in normal range will make any difference. Even injecting igf 1 in high doses doesn't build muscle that well. If it did everybody would use. I've tried it myself more then once and not real impressed.
 
DemntedCowboy

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I highly doubt altering igf 1 levels within in normal range will make any difference. Even injecting igf 1 in high doses doesn't build muscle that well. If it did everybody would use. I've tried it myself more then once and not real impressed.
But low IGF has shown in studys that I posted to lower muscle mass
 

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So what exactly causes insulin resistance?
Variation between one person to another. It’s no different than one person having a naturally higher aerobic capacity, another having a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle(and thus more speed), etc etc etc.

I think we can all agree that no two human beings are created equal. This madness that is constantly shoved down everyone’s throat that we all respond to food the same way is just that- madness.

I see allowances made all the time for different training philosophies being better for different people- hell, you and I both in a pretty small boat of people that subscribe to a pretty controversial approach to exercise.

I simply can’t understand how we can accept the “different strokes for different folks” stuff in regards to training variety, but there’s hard and fast rules and no variation when it comes to diet. Follow the food pyramid, shovel carbs like there’s no tomorrow because our bodies all work the same- if it works for me it’ll work for you. We know better than that.
 

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Hey HIT4ME,

I don’t want to address every point you are making. Some make sense to me and others don’t. But I do want to address one distinction that supports your argument that Keto causes insulin resistance. My original point was that for OBESE people a calorie restricted Keto diet resets the pancreas to pulse insulin at a rate that increases muscle receptor sensitivity. This webpage summarizes my understanding in plain language:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-eating-low-carb-cause-insulin-resistance/

“It appears that weight loss is the deciding factor, and since low carb diets tend to be more effective at inducing weight loss in subjects, they also tend to be better at reducing insulin resistance in insulin-resistant, overweight people. Once you’re lean and weight stable, though, very low carb diets (less than 10% of calories from carbs) can reduce insulin sensitivity. This is normal and totally necessary in the context of a very low carb diet. If we didn’t become insulin resistant while eating very low carb, our brain wouldn’t be able to get the glucose it needed to keep us alive.”

Now I agree with all but the last sentence in that statement. My understanding is the brain �� only needs 20 grams of carbohydrates (glucose) daily to function properly. And metabolically the brain has first claim on blood glucose.

That said, my weight loss experience as an obese person (60 lbs weight loss in 4 months on a very calorie restrictive Keto diet in 2016) is consistent with the above narrative.

To make a long story short, I think you were arguing that insulin resistance can be INCREASED for the non-obese on a low-calorie Keto diet, then we can probably agree.

Good stuff! Thanks, HIT4ME!
Like Ive said before, keto only becomes a negative when you’re not actively burning fat anymore.

And as far as the brain only needing 20g’s... At one point- and maybe they changed it- the USDA or AMA came out and said the human brain can’t function without 130g’s of dietary carbs per day. That’s a board that made this guideline. These are people with PHD’s in medicine, biology, etc. They know better than that. So why does this nonsense continue to get pushed? Because lobbyist money talks, and it has huge influence.
HIT4ME remember that when you start citing studies. Most of them have an agenda. I talk about the 1972 one with nitrates all the time. We reference the cardarine study, and how flawed it was around here a lot. These studies tend to be biased.
 
Humble

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Like Ive said before, keto only becomes a negative when you’re not actively burning fat anymore.

And as far as the brain only needing 20g’s... At one point- and maybe they changed it- the USDA or AMA came out and said the human brain can’t function without 130g’s of dietary carbs per day.
Hmmm. If true, I would be brain dead (and maybe you think I am!) This web page says the 130g of carbs is fake news. But it is referenced...

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain

“In fact, a report by the US Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board states:

"The lower limit of dietary carbohydrates compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."

Although a zero-carb diet isn't recommended because it eliminates many healthy foods, you can definitely eat much less than 130 grams per day and maintain good brain function.”

Interesting stuff. Thanks!
 
DemntedCowboy

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Hmmm. If true, I would be brain dead (and maybe you think I am!) This web page says the 130g of carbs is fake news. But it is referenced...

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/low-carb-ketogenic-diet-brain

“In fact, a report by the US Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board states:

"The lower limit of dietary carbohydrates compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."

Although a zero-carb diet isn't recommended because it eliminates many healthy foods, you can definitely eat much less than 130 grams per day and maintain good brain function.”

Interesting stuff. Thanks!
You cant trust American Study's have you seen the American Public
 
Rocket3015

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Getting to deep for me.
 

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