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Jimothy's Back (and worse than ever)

MrKleen73 said:
Being fasted doesn't really do anything special for your cardio other than possibly feeling better not having a full stomach. The benefit to fasted cardio is often confused with the benefit to doing cardio earlier in the day, and your metabolism being sped up after for longer. Evening cardio the body's circadian rhythm automatically tells the body to start lowering metabolism for rest as bedtime approaches. So you just don't get as long with a raised metabolism. Not a huge deal but being fasted really is not a game changer in any way. The topic has been beaten and studied to death, and those are really the only statistically significant differences which are very minor in the big picture. Fasted or not, your body still has plenty glycogen left to burn off in those first minutes of cardio before things start turning to fat burning a little more predominantly. Plus when it comes to creating a deficit a burned calorie is a burned calorie. So no worries about whether or not cardio is fasted.
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years ago I recall Layne talking about fasted a.m. cardio as being counter intuitive to what the bodybuilders were doing at the time (waking up ever 4hrs to refeed). He was like "these guys are working so hard to stay in a fed state every 4 hours, then for some reason risking catabolism to do fasted cardio in the morning". I don't want to put words in his mouth but you get the gist of it.

I thought Hubberman had talked about the benefit of cardio when doing prolonged fasts, or reaching for ketosis, but that example is a bit more extreme than 8-10 hrs of fasting during sleep.
 
I may try to swing by the gym this evening, if work allows. But I’m not optimistic, and I’m also not sure what that gym would look like around 7pm.

Realistically, I probably need to start setting my alarm a bit earlier than I have it now, as I’m not leaving myself any wiggle room in case I miss it by a snooze cycle or if the dog takes longer than usual on his morning walk. Might move to Kleen time soon

My gym doesn’t open until 6a, so I really can’t get out the door until 5:30a at the earliest, but I need to be out the door between 5:30-6a to have a chance at getting everything done.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Being fasted doesn't really do anything special for your cardio other than possibly feeling better not having a full stomach. The benefit to fasted cardio is often confused with the benefit to doing cardio earlier in the day, and your metabolism being sped up after for longer. Evening cardio the body's circadian rhythm automatically tells the body to start lowering metabolism for rest as bedtime approaches. So you just don't get as long with a raised metabolism. Not a huge deal but being fasted really is not a game changer in any way. The topic has been beaten and studied to death, and those are really the only statistically significant differences which are very minor in the big picture. Fasted or not, your body still has plenty glycogen left to burn off in those first minutes of cardio before things start turning to fat burning a little more predominantly. Plus when it comes to creating a deficit a burned calorie is a burned calorie. So no worries about whether or not cardio is fasted.
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So would doing cardio after your last meal put you in a better metabolic state while you sleep?
 
Dustin07 said:
years ago I recall Layne talking about fasted a.m. cardio as being counter intuitive to what the bodybuilders were doing at the time (waking up ever 4hrs to refeed). He was like "these guys are working so hard to stay in a fed state every 4 hours, then for some reason risking catabolism to do fasted cardio in the morning". I don't want to put words in his mouth but you get the gist of it.

I thought Hubberman had talked about the benefit of cardio when doing prolonged fasts, or reaching for ketosis, but that example is a bit more extreme than 8-10 hrs of fasting during sleep.
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Fasted cardio isn’t bad - it’s just not necessarily better in the scheme of a comprehensive diet/fatloss plan.

There are pros/cons as far as supplements you can use around it as well. Exogenous GH is not disturbed by insulin the way endogenous production is shut off, so you can pin that with either. Carnitine shuttles better with carbs/insulin, but can still be transported somewhat with sodium and still nets a benefit while fasted. Yohimbine needs to be fasted. Stimulants like caffeine & Clen don’t matter for metabolic rate increase, but do tend to hit harder fasted (which may or may not be desired). Anavar is going to want to be fasted).

So it comes down to whatever fits your lifestyle, then choose fatloss aids that work best with your feeding state.
 
Hyde said:
Fasted cardio isn’t bad - it’s just not necessarily better in the scheme of a comprehensive diet/fatloss plan.

There are pros/cons as far as supplements you can use around it as well. Exogenous GH is not disturbed by insulin the way endogenous production is shut off, so you can pin that with either. Carnitine shuttles better with carbs/insulin, but can still be transported somewhat with sodium and still nets a benefit while fasted. Yohimbine needs to be fasted. Stimulants like caffeine & Clen don’t matter for metabolic rate increase, but do tend to hit harder fasted (which may or may not be desired). Anavar is going to want to be fasted).

So it comes down to whatever fits your lifestyle, then choose fatloss aids that work best with your feeding state.
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the only additional thought I have from a personal experience is that my 30-60hr fasts this year have been very productive, but when I added in reasonable LISS of 30-45 minutes it seemed to just about double the results.
 
Hyde said:
Fasted cardio isn’t bad - it’s just not necessarily better in the scheme of a comprehensive diet/fatloss plan.

There are pros/cons as far as supplements you can use around it as well. Exogenous GH is not disturbed by insulin the way endogenous production is shut off, so you can pin that with either. Carnitine shuttles better with carbs/insulin, but can still be transported somewhat with sodium and still nets a benefit while fasted. Yohimbine needs to be fasted. Stimulants like caffeine & Clen don’t matter for metabolic rate increase, but do tend to hit harder fasted (which may or may not be desired). Anavar is going to want to be fasted).

So it comes down to whatever fits your lifestyle, then choose fatloss aids that work best with your feeding state.
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10 H.R. fast yest a.m. I did 3 cups of coffee, 3 rips of sativa concentrate and pushed my hamster wheel in front of the pellet stove for 35 min on the mill.
Note to self: Omit cannabis from cardio sessions as to not feel like River Phoenix at the Viper Room.
Dorian Yates was so convincing in his argument for consuming cannabis b4 cardio
 
PolishHamm3r77 said:
10 H.R. fast yest a.m. I did 3 cups of coffee, 3 rips of sativa concentrate and pushed my hamster wheel in front of the pellet stove for 35 min on the mill.
Note to self: Omit cannabis from cardio sessions as to not feel like River Phoenix at the Viper Room.
Dorian Yates was so convincing in his argument for consuming cannabis b4 cardio
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People get biased towards what works well for them, but the universal truth is that you need to just do what you find works best for YOU. What you feel is right, what you buy into, that is worth so much.
 
Dustin07 said:
years ago I recall Layne talking about fasted a.m. cardio as being counter intuitive to what the bodybuilders were doing at the time (waking up ever 4hrs to refeed). He was like "these guys are working so hard to stay in a fed state every 4 hours, then for some reason risking catabolism to do fasted cardio in the morning". I don't want to put words in his mouth but you get the gist of it.

I thought Hubberman had talked about the benefit of cardio when doing prolonged fasts, or reaching for ketosis, but that example is a bit more extreme than 8-10 hrs of fasting during sleep.
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Yeah and that is a bit different of a situation for sure.
jimbuick said:
I may try to swing by the gym this evening, if work allows. But I’m not optimistic, and I’m also not sure what that gym would look like around 7pm.

Realistically, I probably need to start setting my alarm a bit earlier than I have it now, as I’m not leaving myself any wiggle room in case I miss it by a snooze cycle or if the dog takes longer than usual on his morning walk. Might move to Kleen time soon

My gym doesn’t open until 6a, so I really can’t get out the door until 5:30a at the earliest, but I need to be out the door between 5:30-6a to have a chance at getting everything done.
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Yeah, I had to give myself an extra 15 minutes previously myself. Getting to the point I may push it back to 3:30 just so I can always finish my training in the AM.
PolishHamm3r77 said:
So would doing cardio after your last meal put you in a better metabolic state while you sleep?
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Not really, as mentioned in my last statement your circadian rhythm will force the metabolism to slow prior to sleeping. So you will likely be back to normal once asleep or truly winding down.
Hyde said:
Fasted cardio isn’t bad - it’s just not necessarily better in the scheme of a comprehensive diet/fatloss plan.

There are pros/cons as far as supplements you can use around it as well. Exogenous GH is not disturbed by insulin the way endogenous production is shut off, so you can pin that with either. Carnitine shuttles better with carbs/insulin, but can still be transported somewhat with sodium and still nets a benefit while fasted. Yohimbine needs to be fasted. Stimulants like caffeine & Clen don’t matter for metabolic rate increase, but do tend to hit harder fasted (which may or may not be desired). Anavar is going to want to be fasted).

So it comes down to whatever fits your lifestyle, then choose fatloss aids that work best with your feeding state.
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Facts, and also great insight on when fasted would be more appropriate due to compounds in use.
Dustin07 said:
the only additional thought I have from a personal experience is that my 30-60hr fasts this year have been very productive, but when I added in reasonable LISS of 30-45 minutes it seemed to just about double the results.
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Not that I think it actually doubles but the likelihood that after a 24-60 hour fast you are already quite depleted means the body has to burn a higher percentage of fat because there is minimal to no available glycogen to use for fuel during the cardio and as long as it is not that intense it should not be very catabolic to the muscle tissue if at all.
PolishHamm3r77 said:
10 H.R. fast yest a.m. I did 3 cups of coffee, 3 rips of sativa concentrate and pushed my hamster wheel in front of the pellet stove for 35 min on the mill.
Note to self: Omit cannabis from cardio sessions as to not feel like River Phoenix at the Viper Room.
Dorian Yates was so convincing in his argument for consuming cannabis b4 cardio
Click to expand...
Haha. Must have been some good stuff. LOL It helps the time go by for me. I mind it less and can just get into whatever youtube video or whatever I am watching during.
Hyde said:
People get biased towards what works well for them, but the universal truth is that you need to just do what you find works best for YOU. What you feel is right, what you buy into, that is worth so much.
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I agree 100%, and placebo is also a nice addition to that matrix as well. We all know the body responds to placebo and visualization. What you truly believe, can indeed help you achieve.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Not that I think it actually doubles but the likelihood that after a 24-60 hour fast you are already quite depleted means the body has to burn a higher percentage of fat because there is minimal to no available glycogen to use for fuel during the cardio and as long as it is not that intense it should not be very catabolic to the muscle tissue if at all.
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It's not like I'm burning an instant 5lbs of fat and preserving every ounce of muscle on a 30-60hr fast but the scale difference when I throw in the LISS is pretty crazy, even if temporary. But that's only on legit 30+hr fasts for me. the 20:4 fasting has been a nice way to stay in some level of maintenance and enjoy a fat dinner, whereas the 30+hr was instant fat loss.
 
The Yohimbine is probably why he wants it either fasted or post-training. Not sure if I should just use that before training with the caffeine and carnitine, or if it makes sense to do caffeine and carnitine pre-workout and then take the Y as I near the end of the weight training and move towards cardio.

Open to suggestions on that.
 
jimbuick said:
The Yohimbine is probably why he wants it either fasted or post-training. Not sure if I should just use that before training with the caffeine and carnitine, or if it makes sense to do caffeine and carnitine pre-workout and then take the Y as I near the end of the weight training and move towards cardio.

Open to suggestions on that.
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I feel the effects of yohimbine for maybe 3 hours so if the biggest effect probably 45-60 minutes before cardio would be my best guess. I need to look up why yohimbine needs to be fasted. I was not aware that you needed to be fasted for it to work.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I feel the effects of yohimbine for maybe 3 hours so if the biggest effect probably 45-60 minutes before cardio would be my best guess. I need to look up why yohimbine needs to be fasted. I was not aware that you needed to be fasted for it to work.
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Yeah, this is my first time using it, so I’m not at all familiar with how it works.
 
jimbuick said:
Yeah, this is my first time using it, so I’m not at all familiar with how it works.
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Apparently it is the fact insulin and blood glucose stops it from releasing the stubborn fat from ever getting a chance to be released for burning as energy. It still stimulates you and makes you warm but the specific reason people use it is for that hard to burn fat like a man's lower abdomen, or a woman's hips. At least that is what I found with just a little digging. There may be more to it but that seems to be the gist from what I read.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Apparently it is the fact insulin and blood glucose stops it from releasing the stubborn fat from ever getting a chance to be released for burning as energy. It still stimulates you and makes you warm but the specific reason people use it is for that hard to burn fat like a man's lower abdomen, or a woman's hips. At least that is what I found with just a little digging. There may be more to it but that seems to be the gist from what I read.
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Now that’s making me think that I should do as many of my cardio days on rest days as possible. Maybe instead of on the weekdays, I’ll do Sun, Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat cardio.

That would help me get 3 of them fasted, and it would also make it easier to get to the gym on Tuesday and Thursday since those are days I have to go into the office and a full 2 hour workout can be hard to manage.

Pat didn’t specify which days should be cardio. Just that I should do 5x a week. 🤷
 
Yeah totally, and will free up time for weight training on the days you don't do cardio. I would probably forego cardio on leg days if I were going to do that. I try to do mine Monday through Friday at work so less time away from my family. So I keep it pretty consistently on weekdays myself.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah totally, and will free up time for weight training on the days you don't do cardio. I would probably forego cardio on leg days if I were going to do that. I try to do mine Monday through Friday at work so less time away from my family. So I keep it pretty consistently on weekdays myself.
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Yeah, this should be the only week I have cardio on leg day. And that’s just because I had planned on weekdays, too. The way I’m thinking of doing it, now that I’ve thought about it, is cardio on:

Sun (fasted on recovery day)
Mon (post-chest)
Wed (fasted on recovery day)
Thu (post-shoulders)
Sat (fasted on recovery day)

My two days off of cardio will be my leg and back days, since I expect those will take the most out of me.
 
jimbuick said:
Yeah, this should be the only week I have cardio on leg day. And that’s just because I had planned on weekdays, too. The way I’m thinking of doing it, now that I’ve thought about it, is cardio on:

Sun (fasted on recovery day)
Mon (post-chest)
Wed (fasted on recovery day)
Thu (post-shoulders)
Sat (fasted on recovery day)

My two days off of cardio will be my leg and back days, since I expect those will take the most out of me.
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Solid plan! Plus the nutrition stays the same every day so you will get plenty of food in after cardio on off days to get you right back into serious recovery mode.

You said he is cutting you down right now isn't he?
 
MrKleen73 said:
Solid plan! Plus the nutrition stays the same every day so you will get plenty of food in after cardio on off days to get you right back into serious recovery mode.

You said he is cutting you down right now isn't he?
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First thing he wanted to do was reset BMR. I haven’t sent any pics or anything to him, but I imagine he’ll want to cut down some after he gets me to the point he wants me to be with maintenance.
 
jimbuick said:
First thing he wanted to do was reset BMR. I haven’t sent any pics or anything to him, but I imagine he’ll want to cut down some after he gets me to the point he wants me to be with maintenance.
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That's right, I remember you saying that now. I knew it was similar to what he did with me but couldn't remember if you were still finding maintenance or if he had started changing up the diet yet calorie wise.
 
MrKleen73 said:
That's right, I remember you saying that now. I knew it was similar to what he did with me but couldn't remember if you were still finding maintenance or if he had started changing up the diet yet calorie wise.
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Not yet. This is my first week with his diet and training. Will weigh-in Saturday AM and see where I stand. Probably gonna have to take pics for him too, which I fucking hate, but c’est la vie.
 
jimbuick said:
Not yet. This is my first week with his diet and training. Will weigh-in Saturday AM and see where I stand. Probably gonna have to take pics for him too, which I fucking hate, but c’est la vie.
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BUT, you're so damn sexxy! LMAO!
 
Work has been brutal the last few days. Got to bed at 1 or so last night, so 5a was not gonna happen. Legs are sore as **** (for me, as I don’t usually get sore really anymore).

Gonna do shoulders tomorrow (wfh day is easier to manage) and back Saturday.
 
Yeah, end of year tends to be pretty busy at the law firms.
 
jimbuick said:
Probably gonna have to take pics for him too, which I fucking hate, but c’est la vie.
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only times I liked taking pics was when I was like 15% bf but down from like 25% and feeling great
and when i was sub 10% and knew i was sub 10%. now days I hate taking them lol
 
jimbuick said:
I’m hearing my group is gonna slow down for about a month (actually, I heard good things about completely silent) starting around December 20, so just a few more weeks of this.
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True, not the last two weeks of the year, but the 6 weeks leading up to that other than Thanksgiving. It shuts down about 2 weeks out usually and most of the attorneys are gone. Now that there is a lot of working from home even less than usual the past few years.
 
MrKleen73 said:
True, not the last two weeks of the year, but the 6 weeks leading up to that other than Thanksgiving. It shuts down about 2 weeks out usually and most of the attorneys are gone. Now that there is a lot of working from home even less than usual the past few years.
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Different work line then you guys, but since Covid I never see half or 3/4 of are engineers. Everyone works from home and you see them on a project if **** really goes wrong or an office get together lol.
 
akboom87 said:
Different work line then you guys, but since Covid I never see half or 3/4 of are engineers. Everyone works from home and you see them on a project if **** really goes wrong or an office get together lol.
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We have large bldgs w next to no one working out of them as everyone “works from home”. My office is outside at the pole. I saw 3 of our “engineers” at a EPON activation a month ago. They all had conductor hats on!!! Ba ha ha ha….
 
akboom87 said:
Different work line then you guys, but since Covid I never see half or 3/4 of are engineers. Everyone works from home and you see them on a project if **** really goes wrong or an office get together lol.
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in my industry most everyone is back, the exception being the folks that were within a couple years of retirement largely finagled their way into maintaining a mostly WFH type situation since it's been very hard to replace 30 trained veterans these days
 
Dustin07 said:
in my industry most everyone is back, the exception being the folks that were within a couple years of retirement largely finagled their way into maintaining a mostly WFH type situation since it's been very hard to replace 30 trained veterans these days
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My industry is the same. Most firms are letting people WFH 1 day a week (and more senior folks have a bit more flexibility than juniors), but most everyone is back in the office every day. Can’t be wasting those sweet, sweet leased spaces and all.
 
Hoping to run out to the gym shortly and then hop back on some work, but it’s been all go since I got up this am.

End of year closings
 
jimbuick said:
My industry is the same. Most firms are letting people WFH 1 day a week (and more senior folks have a bit more flexibility than juniors), but most everyone is back in the office every day. Can’t be wasting those sweet, sweet leased spaces and all.
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Yeah in NYC it is probably 10,000,000 a year for just one floor. We drop 5mil a year per floor here in Houston. So I am sure they want to get their moneys worth but here the Equity partners are in the office more, then the new associates attorneys. The regular associates, and the seniors only come in when they want or have an in person meeting.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah in NYC it is probably 10,000,000 a year for just one floor. We drop 5mil a year per floor here in Houston. So I am sure they want to get their moneys worth but here the Equity partners are in the office more, then the new associates attorneys. The regular associates, and the seniors only come in when they want or have an in person meeting.
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Houston is definitely more laid back than NYC. And my firm has a whole ass building out here, so I can’t even begin to imagine the annual leasing cost of that.
 
jimbuick said:
Houston is definitely more laid back than NYC. And my firm has a whole ass building out here, so I can’t even begin to imagine the annual leasing cost of that.
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YIKES! What firm are you at anyway?
 
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Only got 17 minutes of cardio before the gym closed. Oh well, better than nothing. Back and cardio tomorrow and just cardio Sunday.
 
I am enjoying a rest day today. About to go get some more flank steak and blueberries for the diet and grill them up.
 
MrKleen73 said:
We drop 5mil a year per floor here in Houston. So I am sure they want to get their moneys worth but here the Equity partners are in the office more, then the new associates attorneys. The regular associates, and the seniors only come in when they want or have an in person meeting.
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LOL I think we are at about $360-400k/ year for our building and to be honest its still scary as **** to me knowing that monthly bill we are on the hook for. back in 2002 when we started the business our rent was $1100/month 😅

jimbuick said:
Houston is definitely more laid back than NYC.
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Definitely is. Catch 22. You guys aren't truly 'west coast' but you're more west coast than NYC in terms of laid back. I'd love for business to be a bit more professional vs the current scenario where if you wear a full suit to work people wanna know if you're going to a funeral later. On the flip side, people out here might spend $300-500 for a suit that they bust out once per year vs NYC where you're wearing $2k+ suits to work every day.
 
PolishHamm3r77 said:
Flank steak is very hard to get up here. A lot of Chinese food places have bought out the market
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it isn't easy to get around here either. I have to go to Sam's to get mine once a week. It's the only place locally I find it in stock. However around here we us the real deal for fajitas, skirt steak only. Yet I prepare my flank as fajita meat since it is what is on my meal plan.
Dustin07 said:
LOL I think we are at about $360-400k/ year for our building and to be honest its still scary as **** to me knowing that monthly bill we are on the hook for. back in 2002 when we started the business our rent was $1100/month 😅



Definitely is. Catch 22. You guys aren't truly 'west coast' but you're more west coast than NYC in terms of laid back. I'd love for business to be a bit more professional vs the current scenario where if you wear a full suit to work people wanna know if you're going to a funeral later. On the flip side, people out here might spend $300-500 for a suit that they bust out once per year vs NYC where you're wearing $2k+ suits to work every day.
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Oh yeah, I am sure the buildings and other areas are a good bit cheaper, but once you get into a downtown highrise building things get ridiculous.

If I were drinking when I read the laid back statement about California I would have spit my coffee out laughing. Those are the most uptight, anal, and anxious people I have ever run across! Everything is a micro-aggression to them. It's like virtue signalling and getting butt hurt is part of their credit score or something... Then I realized you were talking about how people dress. Since COVID things have gotten a lot more relaxed. We used to wear slacks, and a polo to work. Now we can wear jeans, tennis shoes, and polo shirt to work, doesn't even have to be tucked in. The attorneys can wear jeans too but only if they don't have client facing work that day. However most of them tend to do a button up and slacks most days.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Those are the most uptight, anal, and anxious people I have ever run across! Everything is a micro-aggression to them. It's like virtue signalling and getting butt hurt is part of their credit score or something... Then I realized you were talking about how people dress.
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lol zero argument there, however their ability to dress like adults in the workplace leaves something to be desired

MrKleen73 said:
The attorneys can wear jeans too but only if they don't have client facing work that day. However most of them tend to do a button up and slacks most days.
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yeah I require my guys to wear nice pants (not jeans) and button downs. Ties/blazers are optional, sneakers are not. I grew up in a dress for success world (dress for the job you want) and I have found these small dress code rules to be pretty good for the office. We've actually developed a reputation in our industry as well. On fridays, I'm OK with Jeans as long as they have a button down and nice shoes. no sneakers or hoodies from my executive/sales etc level staff members.
 
Dustin07 said:
lol zero argument there, however their ability to dress like adults in the workplace leaves something to be desired



yeah I require my guys to wear nice pants (not jeans) and button downs. Ties/blazers are optional, sneakers are not. I grew up in a dress for success world (dress for the job you want) and I have found these small dress code rules to be pretty good for the office. We've actually developed a reputation in our industry as well. On fridays, I'm OK with Jeans as long as they have a button down and nice shoes. no sneakers or hoodies from my executive/sales etc level staff members.
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Yeah, especially in a sales position it makes sense to put your best foot forward. For most professionals too. However, I am IT, we are a service provider, and support staff not "professionals" in that spirit. A sales person is more of a professional type of job if you are in an office setting.

To be honest with you, the only reason I don't tuck my shirt in is that last bit of fat you see at the back of my love handles shows more due to the loose skin letting it kind of hang and pool up over my belt line like a reverse muffin top. I noticed it in a mirror one day and was like uhm no... I don't like that. LMAO.
 
MrKleen73 said:
To be honest with you, the only reason I don't tuck my shirt in is that last bit of fat you see at the back of my love handles shows more due to the loose skin letting it kind of hang and pool up over my belt line like a reverse muffin top. I noticed it in a mirror one day and was like uhm no... I don't like that. LMAO.
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at over 200lbs my fitted shirts go from a nice tight tuck to me actually fluffing them out over the belt a tiny bit for that reason 😅😅 Last week's deadlift session was the first time in a very long time that I looked a bit fat in the mirror sitting around 204lbs lol
 
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Had to work most days this weekend and woke up to calls and emails this morning. Hit the workout in the evening and did my 25 minutes on the elliptical.

Like Kleen, I’m waiting to see what adjustments Pat is making this week. Body weight at check in was down to ~179, so I am expecting he will want to increase cals slightly.

Gotta go home now and cook my chicken for the week.
 
Interesting that he has you doing leg extensions and curls before your compound work. He seems to be focusing on some pre-exhaust techniques with you in your training. I wonder what the difference in approach comes from. Perhaps information in your intake?
 
Did you get your new macros? Mine were waiting for me when I woke up this morning.
 
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