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Is Toremifene (Fareston) still superior?

phonefool

Member
just looking for some updated info on this subject - as i see many still going with the clomid or nolva or both vs. toremifene?
 
I am sure as with everything else on this board, that the response varies greatly by individual

I have tried all 3 and Clomid gets my vote. I'm not bothering with Tor again and nolva is my estro/gyno control, not my pct staple.
 
UnrealMachine said:
I am sure as with everything else on this board, that the response varies greatly by individual

I have tried all 3 and Clomid gets my vote. I'm not bothering with Tor again and nolva is my estro/gyno control, not my pct staple.
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curious, what didnt work out for you with the tor?
 
i ran it after SD and lost strength pretty rapidly, didn't feel very recovered.

When i ran clomid it was after a lot of ****... 4 weeker of SD that jumpstarted Test E that was bunk, which turned into a test prop @ 100mg ed cycle... anyway with that PCT there wasn't very much difference between being on Test and on PCT, i got very high test during & after my PCT because of clomid, lots of acne and very high libido
 
Zero V said:
not at inflating testicles...
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maybe not, but getting test up it is

Tamoxifen, raloxifene and toremifene are SERMs: they attach themselves to the receptor for estradiol but don’t start up the processes that usually follow after estradiol has attached itself to its receptor. That’s why doctors use SERMS against tumours whose growth is stimulated by female hormones.





Chemical athletes use SERMs because they raise the testosterone level. One of the ways that the body monitors its own production of sex hormones is by keeping an eye on the concentration of estradiol in the blood. If it gets too high then sex hormone production is reduced – including the production of testosterone. Because the control mechanisms make use of estradiol receptors, SERMs crank up testosterone production. That’s why chemical athletes use substances like tamoxifen after taking a course of steroids.


The Greek researchers did a trial with just under three hundred infertile men, whose sperm count was low and most of whom had low levels of testosterone production. The researchers gave the men either 20 mg tamoxifen, 60 mg toremifene or 60 mg raloxifene daily for three months. The table below shows what happened to the men’s LH, FSH and testosterone levels.
Invalid Link Removed









Raloxifene has little effect on the testosterone level, so it’s not an interesting candidate for a Post Cycle Therapy supplement. Toremifene is somewhat better, but doesn’t perform as well as tamoxifen, and it loses its maximum effect after two months as well.


To complete the story we’ve added the table below, which shows the effect of the three on sperm cells. Once again, raloxifene performs less well than tamoxifen and toremifene. Invalid Link Removed










The researchers suspect that the two more effective SERMs not only work through the body’s hormonal thermostat, thereby inducing the pituitary gland to make more messenger hormones [which in turn get the testes to produce more testosterone]. They think that tamoxifen and toremifene also have a direct effect on the testosterone producing cells.


Source:
Fertil Steril. 2009 Apr;91(4 Suppl):1427-30.


doesn't talk about clomid though, I wonder why.......
 
jbryand101b nice data

Interesting at the end of 1 month, tamox did a better job at stimulating a rise in LH and the rise in Test. Torem doesnt reach these levels with test til the end of month 4. Could be why Unreal didnt do as well when he used Torem. This makes me stick with my Clomid + Tamox combo for harder cycles.

So in answer to the threads question... Torem seems to be far LESS as effective as Tamox.
 
Liftingstud said:
Very true. But essentially when u are shutdown u are in a very similar state.
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no, you aren't. Plenty of infertile men produce sufficient testosterone, but not sperm. Those baseline T levels are normal T levels. the baseline lowest is roughly 500 +- 150, which gives a rough bottom of 350 whereas at the end of a cycle you are lucky if your test level is over 100.
 
Easy is right, those baselines look normal. Coming off a long ass cycle your test is going to be a whole lot lower than 500ng/dl
 
thats an interesting study. there will always be differences of course though as nobody does steroid medical tests of course with the situations we have. i found torem to work much better for me.

is there any reason you couldn't do some of each at the same time in your PCT?
 
you can call it essentially nothing though, i dont know specifically about hdrol or epi but i've seen blood work on superdrol that show you are very very shut down even after just 5 days. i would imagine that its safe to say with 99% of steroids that within a week you are virtually shut down on natural test production.
 
is there anything similar to what jbryan posted only about Clomid? i see clomid used more then raloxifene, but haven't seen such studies done on its effect on specific T-levels after PCT
 
you wont find studies of it used in PCT since roids are illegal. i think the only way to know is to try each one. i like torem but others like clomid. nolva not really used in PCT anymore. i will never do another cycle without HCG during and IGF in PCT too.
 
raloxifene is good for gyno, not PCT.

Clomid tamox and torem are good PCT supps,

Clomid acts much differently and was designed for different things then nolva and torem. i dont use torem only because i have not seen TOO many studies on it, only anecdotal

clomid or nolva is what ive used and of those 2 i like clomid!
 
no... why would it? Bloat comes from excess estrogen, pretty much only steroids that aromatize produce bloat
 
"Clomiphene (Clomid) consists of two stereoisomers which possess radically different pharmacodynamics. Zuclomiphene has predominantly estrogenic effects and slow clearance while the enclomiphene isomer has predominately anti-estrogenic effects and quick clearance. (9) This creates a dichotomy between estrogen blockage and estrogen stimulation and an acute imbalance once Clomid administration is discontinued."

this is what got me thining about bloat.
 
Its possible because its mixed agonist and antagonist properties but it also has no effect on e2 so as t levels rise more aromatization occurs
 
nolva does nothing to bring ur testes and natty production back it doesnt even lower estrogen it just fills the receptors so you dont get gyno etc. Clomid is the way to go tho alot of ppl have eye problems with it
 
what is e2? and anyone get hot flashes on clomid? i just had one\

would switching to a differnt serm mid ptc be bad?

i was wondering of going from clomid to torem 2 weeks in
 
clomid is still not as strong as tamox at raising test levels. I believe tamox raises test 150% with 20mg, while it takes 150mg of Clomid to raise test levels equivalently.
 
i think research torem is inferior to pharm grade fareston. most people only have access to research torem, hence the mixed results.

if everybody would use pharm grade toremifene, then we would not have this discussion anymore

because original fareston is the best serm out there, the best
 
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