Insulin Q and A

[Newth]

I haven't read through all the posts, so excuse me if I say something redundant. Also, I'm 99% certain I have spoken at length about insulin use before so for those truly interested in hearing more, do a search for all my posts on it. In fact, I might copy/paste a few in here later...assuming I still agree with my past self (which is unlikely - I'm always correcting my former self). I'd take anything I said with a grain of salt prior to about 2016/17, though.

My recommendation is to control insulin for maximal gains. Avoid anything over 5 iu/dose. Sounds crazy but let me explain. Indeed, there are anabolic benefits of larger doses of insulin when in the presence of amino acids, particularly Leucine. But that doesn't mean this is what we should aim for with insulin use.

Insulin use is great for:

1) High carb, high calorie diets that reduce insulin sensitivity
2) Programs that call for moderate to high GH or MK-677 use, which causes insulin resistance

Rule of thumb for taking T4/Lantus combo is @ 2iu/75lbs of lean mass. So if you have 200lbs of lean mass, you'd be in the 5iu/day range. That's enough to elevate your BG levels chronically (if you are using a high quality GH). Bodybuilders would do well to use insulin in the same exact way the a diabetic uses it, which is at every meal and for the purpose of controlling BG levels. If you get really good at it, you can have your BG levels down to about 90-100 every 2-2.5hrs after each meal. Doing this guarantees no fat gain. NONE. ZILCH. NADDA.

Generally speaking, I follow this guideline and boy does it work well.

***Don't fit your diet around your insulin use, rather, fit your insulin use around you dietary needs***

The biggest problem with trying to get "anabolic" activity from insulin by taking so much at one time is that you potentially have to abandon your actual dietary needs in order to not have a BG crash afterwards. I've seen so many people go into their insulin cycle with the mindset of taking a certain dose and adjusting their diet to that dose. It isn't optimal.

What you ought to do is exclude insulin from your diet planning altogether. The name of the game is line your diet up and then apply 1iu per 20g of carbs. That's it. Don't say: "I'm going to take 5iu per meal" or "10iu per meal" and adjust your carb intake to it. You'll get fat, but why? Well because you're eating 100-200g of carbs each meal! Duh!

What you are after is getting your BG down even quicker than your already-honed-in-diet would do naturally. So if we drew an insulin curve over time, we'd see that the average BG level would be significantly lower w/ insulin use - or another way to look at it is the integral of the slope (area) of the curve would be less than the model without insulin. But we're getting into Calculus now so I digress.

When you lower the area under the curve, you increase insulin sensitivity and glucagon secretion, the latter being the antithesis of insulin - as in this hormone is responsible for signaling fatty acid breakdown to raise BG to a sustainable level (not a precise definition of the term). Have I lost anyone yet? I don't want to lose anyone with this thought. (Modafinil is really blazing strong!)

I'll standby for criticisms, comments & questions...

Greatly appreciated FP.
I'll need to reread this tonight after work to get it to sink in properly but the glucagon angle sounds very interesting......so does the modafinil, lol.

 

[Matthersby]

That is a very realistic goal. Calories look good..you are just going to have to be ok with some fat gain. You can worry about that later though. On the Lantus, fat consumed will likely result in fat stored. So stick to low fat foods. But, honsetly, it sounds like you are on the right track. Remember 20 units of Lantus, is like 5 of humalog. There is no real spike, I know guys running 50 to 70 a day. However, don't just shoot that much tomorrow, build yourself up.

Absolutely. This is just going to take some adjusting though. I’m eating gummy worms at work and literally thinking how fat I’m getting, and I even know that simple carbs are more critical on slin, fat is not as optimal.
I am going to 15iu’s a day and will continue to increase until I find the point where it is most anabolic yet diminishing returns in fat gain set in. I’m certain this will be over 20ius at this point because of the overall lack of hunger and the utter care-free ease of 10-12 IU’s has been. At my weight, I’m betting 25iu’s will be a good dose, but who knows? I’ll be there by next month and we will see.
Thank you Swim. I may have done a little research on this stuff, but I have so much unlearning to do in the “diet and nutrition” realm, that I will unthink my way out of correctly eating on insulin for fear of fat gain. I’ll get it!

 

[Newth]

Eh, try not to get hung up on it. Basically, glucagon is the other half of the insulin-glucagon axis and what you are tying to do is attain a low insulin-glucagon ratio, which will lead to fat loss. This ratio in cahoots w/ Tren and about 2g/lb of mass in protein, the addition of slabs upon slabs of muscle tissue simultaneously.

It sounds a bit like the synergies between GH, Insulin and Cortisol(genralising).
You also answered something else I've been thinking about with the Tren comment. Thanks.

 

[fueledpassion]

It sounds a bit like the synergies between GH, Insulin and Cortisol(genralising).
You also answered something else I've been thinking about with the Tren comment. Thanks.

Eh, try not to get hung up on it. Basically, glucagon is the other half of the insulin-glucagon axis and what you are trying to do is attain a low insulin-glucagon ratio, which will lead to fat loss. This ratio in cahoots w/ Tren and about 2g/lb of mass in protein, the addition of slabs upon slabs of muscle tissue simultaneously.

What else were you thinking about regarding Tren?

 

[Newth]

What else were you thinking about regarding Tren?

Forgetting any additional GH effects.
Tren has IGF-1 raising properties, as does MK677 over 20mg/d.

I was suspecting together they should raise IGF-1 substantially more with correct insulin use.

This is the basic thought, obviously variables like diet, fast/slow acting insulin, pre/post-workout timing, CJC-w/wo dac and many other things could be considered if wanted but that's the jist of it.

 

[Newth]

What else were you thinking about regarding Tren?

Oh, as well as trens nutrient partioning.
I think this could work well with insulins.

 

[Matthersby]

This thread has now surpassed any science-based grasp I have on insulin. I’ll simply lurk for knowledge now...

 

[jackedviking]

This thread has now surpassed any science-based grasp I have on insulin. I’ll simply lurk for knowledge now...

Totally agree! Trying to find a protocol for early morning workouts. It’s either early morning, or late at night and I don’t want to take insulin within a few hours of going to be. So here goes:

0430 - Wakeup, slam 50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, pin 2 IUs of slin.

0445 - Slam Preworkout

0500 - Start warmup at gym, starting sipping on intra shake (50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, BCAAs)

0600 - Slam another 50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, BCAAs and creatine

I would gradually increase Slin after a week or so if this worked ok. And would consequently bump protein and carbs. And I would only run the Slin on workout days, four days a week.

 

[Matthersby]

Totally agree! Trying to find a protocol for early morning workouts. It’s either early morning, or late at night and I don’t want to take insulin within a few hours of going to be. So here goes:

0430 - Wakeup, slam 50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, pin 2 IUs of slin.

0445 - Slam Preworkout

0500 - Start warmup at gym, starting sipping on intra shake (50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, BCAAs)

0600 - Slam another 50grams of carbs and 25grams of whey, BCAAs and creatine

I would gradually increase Slin after a week or so if this worked ok. And would consequently bump protein and carbs. And I would only run the Slin on workout days, four days a week.

Looks great! Never been a morning workout guy, but that’s so much easier than needing to stay up late until the risk of hypo passes.
I stayed away from stims but only bc of the shakiness that I can get from them would resemble hypoglycemia somewhat. Most don’t have that kind of stim sensitivity though. What kind of insulin?

 

[Matthersby]

I like to have more whole food in my stomach also. I eventually would pin immediately after a very dense carb/protein meal with just some fat. This would minimize the initial amount of dextrose I would need to take and I could just focus on intraworkout slin shake and maybe only a handful of dextrose tabs. This worked all the way until 12-15iu’s and then I needed to up the dextrose a little bit on top of a full belly. I was definitely on the cautious side though.

 

[Hyde]

I found this to be pretty informative, and she’s both a diabetic and an endo that specializes in diabetes:

https://youtu.be/ebb0uDrqS_k

The inhalable insulin was pretty awesome.

 

[jackedviking]

Looks great! Never been a morning workout guy, but that’s so much easier than needing to stay up late until the risk of hypo passes.
I stayed away from stims but only bc of the shakiness that I can get from them would resemble hypoglycemia somewhat. Most don’t have that kind of stim sensitivity though. What kind of insulin?

Lantus or Humalog. Good feedback on the pre, hadn’t thought of that... might hold off until I better learn how I’ll feel on slin.

 

[Hyde]

Also, in that vid she mentioned that she has her clients using Lantus to pin it twice a day so the basal coverage is truly flat over 24 hours. She is big on insulin use to protect the beta cells and give them a break to heal if fasting blood glucose gets up to 100-126. She has reversed a lot of people out of pre-diabetes by dosing basal insulin coverage like Lantus for a while and then peeling it back slowly as the beta cells strengthen back up.

 

[fueledpassion]

Pre-workout is superior to post, but I would just do every meal @ 1iu per 20g carbs and have a sensible amount of carbs spread throughout the day. About 200-300g of starchy carbs will work, but it needs to be carbs you have tested your BG with - carbs that your body breaks down easily & without the help of insulin to shuttle it. If you have those types of carbs, you'll reduce inflammation of the gut and you'll get gastric emptying much sooner and you'll control BG much better this way too.

Keeping BG as low as possible is really key while still eating enough carbs. Your BG test 1, 2 & 3hrs after consuming each carb source will tell you which carbs your gut appreciates and which it has trouble with. If your BG is still very high 2hrs after eating (120+), then you either need to drop that carb source or reduce the amount. For instance, I cannot have whole grain oatmeal - my BG will stay at 120+ for 4+ hrs after the meal, which is not ideal for fat loss. Weight management -> yes, it would work well because it would be easier to starve myself. But that strategy just ensures muscle loss. That food type also happens to bloat me excessively and blurs my lines. So I avoid it now.

Training about 90-120 minutes after you've taken the Humulin-R is perfect, because your insulin will peak during training, which means minimal muscle wasting. In fact, if you have some food on your stomach, you're training session is actually just causing your muscles to act as a nutrient vacuum.

You don't need to overdo it though but rather, you need a healthy amount of NO boosters and Glutamine & ***Leucine***. I always did a 50g protein shake + banana @ half-time during my training session. It worked great and allowed me to knock out 20+ sets on thighs and arms 3 X's per week. Take one more look at those pics and notice that I added 1.5" to my thighs and clocking in at the same weight.

 

[Newth]

Lantus or Humalog. Good feedback on the pre, hadn’t thought of that... might hold off until I better learn how I’ll feel on slin.

First few times I would suggest earlyish on a day off work and post-workout to get a feel for it as safely as possible with Humalog.

 

[Newth]

I found this to be pretty informative, and she’s both a diabetic and an endo that specializes in diabetes:

https://youtu.be/ebb0uDrqS_k

The inhalable insulin was pretty awesome.

Just got up, I'll have to wait until after work to watch but good find.

 

[Newth]

Pre-workout is superior to post, but I would just do every meal @ 1iu per 20g carbs and have a sensible amount of carbs spread throughout the day. About 200-300g of starchy carbs will work, but it needs to be carbs you have tested your BG with - carbs that your body breaks down easily & without the help of insulin to shuttle it. If you have those types of carbs, you'll reduce inflammation of the gut and you'll get gastric emptying much sooner and you'll control BG much better this way too.

Keeping BG as low as possible is really key while still eating enough carbs. Your BG test 1, 2 & 3hrs after consuming each carb source will tell you which carbs your gut appreciates and which it has trouble with. If your BG is still very high 2hrs after eating (120+), then you either need to drop that carb source or reduce the amount. For instance, I cannot have whole grain oatmeal - my BG will stay at 120+ for 4+ hrs after the meal, which is not ideal for losing weight. It also happens to bloat me excessively and blurs my lines.

Training about 90-120 minutes after you've taken the Humulin-R is perfect, because your insulin will peak during training, which means minimal muscle wasting. In fact, if you have some food on your stomach, you're training session is actually just causing your muscles to act as a nutrient vacuum.

You don't need to overdo it though but rather, you need a healthy amount of NO boosters and Glutamine & Lycine. I always did a 50g protein shake + banana @ half-time during my training session. It worked great and allowed me to knock out 20+ sets on thighs and arms 3 X's per week. Take one more look at those pics and notice that I added 1.5" to my thighs and clocking in at the same weight.

I haven't really considered gastric emptying beyond low viscosity liquid to keep the lower stomach valve open while in a fasted state, guess I'll need to rethink eating in general again now.

And fantastic work, that is amazing at the same body weight.

 

[fueledpassion]

I haven't really considered gastric emptying beyond low viscosity liquid to keep the lower stomach valve open while in a fasted state, guess I'll need to rethink eating in general again now.

And fantastic work, that is amazing at the same body weight.

To get as monstrous as possible, the ideal target is to be able to eat as many carbs as possible without getting fat. I've discovered that "getting fat" is directly related to BG control. Lower the area under the curve and you lower body fat and increase muscle mass.

This of course is assuming you are highly anabolic, training regularly and are eating plenty of high quality proteins.

Not surprisingly, as soon as I applied the 1iu per 20g rule and was taking Novolin-R 4-5 times per day in this manner, I always noticed a tighter waistline as an immediate result. To clarify though, I didn't pass 50-75g of carbs per meal. Doing this ensures that you don't get fat and also ensures that you don't need a bunch of insulin.

The weekend carb loading strategy is also a must, IME. In fact, it is the single most important component of maintaining muscle mass when cutting, for instance. A reduction in carbs also reduces insulin output, which also reduces conversion of T4 to T3, thereby slowing down the metabolism and dampening your fat loss efforts. Two full days of carb loading does the trick.

During bulking phases, you might have to double or triple your carb intake on the weekend to ramp up the metabolism and keep yourself recovered properly. I have a friend that is currently doing this and he eats 400-500g per day during the week and about 1200-1300g of carbs daily on Sat & Sun. He also weighs in at a lean 245-250lbs. He'll go pro in the next 12-18 months I believe.

On that note, what I am saying here is precisely what the more serious professional bodybuilder's do - they control their BG each and every hour and make adjustments as needed to get it down as soon as they can. Your BG can tell you quite a lot about how healthy you are and how healthy the food quality is. It is not practical to do this for long periods of time for us amateurs but if you did it for one short 3-4 month season, you can maximize progress so much that you can literally take a huge break afterwards and enjoy being yoked and statuesque without putting in the work. I have literally done this for 6 months, training less than 2 times per week now and eating 1-3 times per day and keeping 70-80% of my physique from before. It's nice. Can't do it forever but I had a real vacation from this lifestyle for the first time in 10 years.

 

[Hyde]

Just got up, I'll have to wait until after work to watch but good find.

Part 1 is informative but I posted 2 because it’s more drug specific in the info. But if you have an hour of chores watch both.

 

[Newth]

To get as monstrous as possible, the ideal target is to be able to eat as many carbs as possible without getting fat. I've discovered that "getting fat" is directly related to BG control. Lower the area under the curve and you lower body fat and increase muscle mass.

This of course is assuming you are highly anabolic, training regularly and are eating plenty of high quality proteins.

Not surprisingly, as soon as I applied the 1iu per 20g rule and was taking Novolin-R 4-5 times per day in this manner, I always noticed a tighter waistline as an immediate result. To clarify though, I didn't pass 50-75g of carbs per meal. Doing this ensures that you don't get fat and also ensures that you don't need a bunch of insulin.

The weekend carb loading strategy is also a must, IME. In fact, it is the single most important component of maintaining muscle mass when cutting, for instance. A reduction in carbs also reduces insulin output, which also reduces conversion of T4 to T3, thereby slowing down the metabolism and dampening your fat loss efforts. Two full days of carb loading does the trick.

During bulking phases, you might have to double or triple your carb intake on the weekend to ramp up the metabolism and keep yourself recovered properly. I have a friend that is currently doing this and he eats 400-500g per day during the week and about 1200-1300g of carbs daily on Sat & Sun. He also weighs in at a lean 245-250lbs. He'll go pro in the next 12-18 months I believe.

I've said it earlier in the thread but for reasons I can gain a lot of size over the next year but it gives me a chance to learn and test a few things out.

Lantus and Novalog are the options I will be able to test in the short term.
I had considered with meal timing to be more of a later option but you are really opening my eyes to the flexibility of this.

Was there much additional hormone use during that year?

 

[fueledpassion]

I've said it earlier in the thread but for reasons I can gain a lot of size over the next year but it gives me a chance to learn and test a few things out.

Lantus and Novalog are the options I will be able to test in the short term.
I had considered with meal timing to be more of a later option but you are really opening my eyes to the flexibility of this.

Was there much additional hormone use during that year?

Only AAS and in sensible doses. Something like 300/300/300 Test Prop/Tren-A/Mast-P with winny at end w/ a low dose of T3 (37.5mcg/day). You should know that my body doesn’t care for getting lean - I just don’t lose much weight and I have to get dramatic with cardio just to get below 7-8% BF. Sucks. But on the other hand, I never look flat and puny while cutting.

W/ GH, T4 & Lantus, you’ll do in 6-9 months time what is normally done in 18-24 months. But I’d add those on the rebound growth phase after cutting. Regular insulin and weekend reloading is all you need for cutting... well that and Painless Pumps. That stuff might as well be liquid gold.

The only other dramatic changes from year to year were:

-Trained full leg workouts M, W, F instead of twice per week
-Increased protein to 300+g per day with almost no liquid sources
-Did double the cardio and 50% of it was stairsteppers @ 90-120 min/day
-Carb reloading that decreased proportionately with weekday carb amounts. Started around 460g/day on weekend and ended at 200g/day on weekends and last 4 weeks I cut all starchy carbs out.

Let me just say that if you are pounding the protein & carbs down and taking slin, don’t be afraid to push some of your larger body parts to places you wouldn’t go without it.

 

[Matthersby]

I think it’s valuable to distinguish the different goals and approaches of individuals in this thread.
-You have Fueled, who is a knowledgeable competitive bodybuilder, with a sensible and practical approach to use insulin not only for hypertrophy but also to reduce bodyfat and insulin sensitivity.. Gaining muscle and minimizing, even reducing bodyfat.
-Swim who powerlifts and uses to achieve raw strength and size and uses more aggressive doses.
-And me, who lands somewhere in the middle, I struggle to gain mass and stay relatively lean anyways, and I won’t need to diet to sub 7% for old man Men’s Physique. And I’m too scared to use aggressive dose nor do I monitor my macros as closely as someone who does compete multiple times a year to run optimal doses. Just want as much muscle as I can get prior to excessive fat gain.

I find FP’s approach to be the most thought out and reasonable for my personal goals. Do I have diet/nutrition dialed in well enough to attempt it yet? Probably not. But it does make the most sense to me in both arenas of safety and results.

 

[fueledpassion]

That’s a good post ^^^. There is certainly more than one way to skin the cat, as the saying goes, but my method was predicated on safety and moderacy and was dependent entirely upon discipline and attention to detail.

It is also worth re-emphasizing that I have a philosophy that differs from mainstream body sculpting protocol. My philosophy values the process and character development over the end result. I would delightfully sacrifice certain “gains” if I could walkaway with something more permanent like discipline and a sense of accomplishment. My strategy has always been one that highlights the character development over the actual end result. My coach can attest to this frustrating truth! I was more interested in overcoming mental barriers than I was at landing on a certain SMART goal or target. Winning meant nothing to me.

So, everything I ever come up with is predicated on discipline as being the vehicle for success and gear as the afternarket bolt-on’s that enhance performance.

It’s just my style and preference. You know you’ve been at it for a LONG time when you have a “philosophy” in which you filter all of your strategies through, lol. Seriously though, I’ve clocked in about 5000hrs into somewhat serious competition training.

 

[Cgkone]

Looks great! Never been a morning workout guy, but that’s so much easier than needing to stay up late until the risk of hypo passes.
I stayed away from stims but only bc of the shakiness that I can get from them would resemble hypoglycemia somewhat. Most don’t have that kind of stim sensitivity though. What kind of insulin?

What would you suggest ?

 

[Cgkone]

Only AAS and in sensible doses. Something like 300/300/300 Test Prop/Tren-A/Mast-P with winny at end w/ a low dose of T3 (37.5mcg/day). You should know that my body doesn’t care for getting lean - I just don’t lose much weight and I have to get dramatic with cardio just to get below 7-8% BF. Sucks. But on the other hand, I never look flat and puny while cutting.

W/ GH, T4 & Lantus, you’ll do in 6-9 months time what is normally done in 18-24 months. But I’d add those on the rebound growth phase after cutting. Regular insulin and weekend reloading is all you need for cutting... well that and Painless Pumps. That stuff might as well be liquid gold.

The only other dramatic changes from year to year were:

-Trained full leg workouts M, W, F instead of twice per week
-Increased protein to 300+g per day with almost no liquid sources
-Did double the cardio and 50% of it was stairsteppers @ 90-120 min/day
-Carb reloading that decreased proportionately with weekday carb amounts. Started around 460g/day on weekend and ended at 200g/day on weekends and last 4 weeks I cut all starchy carbs out.

Let me just say that if you are pounding the protein & carbs down and taking slin, don’t be afraid to push some of your larger body parts to places you wouldn’t go without it.

Why t4 and not t3 on GH? Forgive me if you've gone over this already.

 

[Newth]

I think it’s valuable to distinguish the different goals and approaches of individuals in this thread.
-You have Fueled, who is a knowledgeable competitive bodybuilder, with a sensible and practical approach to use insulin not only for hypertrophy but also to reduce bodyfat and insulin sensitivity.. Gaining muscle and minimizing, even reducing bodyfat.
-Swim who powerlifts and uses to achieve raw strength and size and uses more aggressive doses.
-And me, who lands somewhere in the middle, I struggle to gain mass and stay relatively lean anyways, and I won’t need to diet to sub 7% for old man Men’s Physique. And I’m too scared to use aggressive dose nor do I monitor my macros as closely as someone who does compete multiple times a year to run optimal doses. Just want as much muscle as I can get prior to excessive fat gain.

I find FP’s approach to be the most thought out and reasonable for my personal goals. Do I have diet/nutrition dialed in well enough to attempt it yet? Probably not. But it does make the most sense to me in both arenas of safety and results.

This is the best thing to understand before starting I think. Knowing what you want to achieve.

 

[fueledpassion]

Why t4 and not t3 on GH? Forgive me if you've gone over this already.

Sure, I’ve posted the links to references elsewhere in the past but basically exogenous GH interferes with T4 creation. I can’t remember the exact mechanism for this but I am certain that T3 does nothing to help the matter. You need T4. Type in “T4” and search by my posts. I’m certain that within the last year I explained this somewhere.

 

[fueledpassion]

Matthersby, when you are ready to figure that out, shoot me an email. You need one or two weekends to figure out which carbs work for you from a BG standpoint and after that it sort of runs itself if you stick with same 4-5 carb sources. You won’t have to keep checking your BG all the time, just occasionally...

 

[Newth]

That’s a good post ^^^. There is certainly more than one way to skin the cat, as the saying goes, but my method was predicated on safety and moderacy and was dependent entirely upon discipline and attention to detail.

It is also worth re-emphasizing that I have a philosophy that differs from mainstream body sculpting protocol. My philosophy values the process and character development over the end result. I would delightfully sacrifice certain “gains” if I could walkaway with something more permanent like discipline and a sense of accomplishment. My strategy has always been one that highlights the character development over the actual end result. My coach can attest to this frustrating truth! I was more interested in overcoming mental barriers than I was at landing on a certain SMART goal or target. Winning meant nothing to me.

So, everything I ever come up with is predicated on discipline as being the vehicle for success and gear as the afternarket bolt-on’s that enhance performance.

It’s just my style and preference. You know you’ve been at it for a LONG time when you have a “philosophy” in which you filter all of your strategies through, lol. Seriously though, I’ve clocked in about 5000hrs into somewhat serious competition training.

This makes a lot of sense. Returning after nearly a 16 year lay off with bad habits I'm looking at things as a life quality option now.
It makes me think in different ways than I used too.

Your AAS concept is similar to John Doe's 20week insulin cycle with HCG bridge.
It definitely sounds valid with things I learnt first hand back in the day.

 

[jackedviking]

Only AAS and in sensible doses. Something like 300/300/300 Test Prop/Tren-A/Mast-P with winny at end w/ a low dose of T3 (37.5mcg/day). You should know that my body doesn’t care for getting lean - I just don’t lose much weight and I have to get dramatic with cardio just to get below 7-8% BF. Sucks. But on the other hand, I never look flat and puny while cutting.

W/ GH, T4 & Lantus, you’ll do in 6-9 months time what is normally done in 18-24 months. But I’d add those on the rebound growth phase after cutting. Regular insulin and weekend reloading is all you need for cutting... well that and Painless Pumps. That stuff might as well be liquid gold.

The only other dramatic changes from year to year were:

-Trained full leg workouts M, W, F instead of twice per week
-Increased protein to 300+g per day with almost no liquid sources
-Did double the cardio and 50% of it was stairsteppers @ 90-120 min/day
-Carb reloading that decreased proportionately with weekday carb amounts. Started around 460g/day on weekend and ended at 200g/day on weekends and last 4 weeks I cut all starchy carbs out.

Let me just say that if you are pounding the protein & carbs down and taking slin, don’t be afraid to push some of your larger body parts to places you wouldn’t go without it.

Love the issue of "Loggin' Times" in the background! Where can a brotha get a copy???

 

[Matthersby]

Matthersby, when you are ready to figure that out, shoot me an email. You need one or two weekends to figure out which carbs work for you from a BG standpoint and after that it sort of runs itself if you stick with same 4-5 carb sources. You won’t have to keep checking your BG all the time, just occasionally...

Much appreciated FP. I trust your judgement on these matters reading your posts for a good 6 years or so.

So, thank you.

 

[swimfan65]

I think it’s valuable to distinguish the different goals and approaches of individuals in this thread.
-You have Fueled, who is a knowledgeable competitive bodybuilder, with a sensible and practical approach to use insulin not only for hypertrophy but also to reduce bodyfat and insulin sensitivity.. Gaining muscle and minimizing, even reducing bodyfat.
-Swim who powerlifts and uses to achieve raw strength and size and uses more aggressive doses.
-And me, who lands somewhere in the middle, I struggle to gain mass and stay relatively lean anyways, and I won’t need to diet to sub 7% for old man Men’s Physique. And I’m too scared to use aggressive dose nor do I monitor my macros as closely as someone who does compete multiple times a year to run optimal doses. Just want as much muscle as I can get prior to excessive fat gain.

I find FP’s approach to be the most thought out and reasonable for my personal goals. Do I have diet/nutrition dialed in well enough to attempt it yet? Probably not. But it does make the most sense to me in both arenas of safety and results.

I am certainly not a bodybuilder. Much respect though..huge respect. I am just too big. I could never be competitive. My frame and size is more conducive to powerlifting...even more so...strong man. My insulin use when putting on muscle is not as disciplined as body builder's...neither is my diet. I don't eat junk..I eat clean...but I eat for size and strength. We all have different goals, and it is great that we help each other with those goals however we can.

 

[Matthersby]

I am certainly not a bodybuilder. Much respect though..huge respect. I am just too big. I could never be competitive. My frame and size is more conducive to powerlifting...even more so...strong man. My insulin use when putting on muscle is not as disciplined as body builder's...neither is my diet. I don't eat junk..I eat clean...but I eat for size and strength. We all have different goals, and it is great that we help each other with those goals however we can.

Completely my only point. I could never do what is necessary to reach your size and strength. I’m not built like that, and the amount of eating for me would be close to impossible. I’m actually rather weak and do 99% hypertrophy-only training. But total respect for all that that push themselves to be better every day than the day before regardless of the reason. I just want to distinguish, with the awesome amount of information being injected in this thread, that those wanting to try it, assess their goals to properly start safe protocols that will help them reach those goals. With all 3 of us that have used it with different purposes,different approaches and with different overall results, it’s good to know what you’d want going into it. I’ve been reading for 3 years about how to diet and/or cut on slin, never have I seen it laid out so well as FP did here. Seems like with a little more discipline and macro counting, it seems less daunting now to attempt.

 

[swimfan65]

Completely my only point. I could never do what is necessary to reach your size and strength. I’m not built like that, and the amount of eating for me would be close to impossible. I’m actually rather weak and do 99% hypertrophy-only training. But total respect for all that that push themselves to be better every day than the day before regardless of the reason. I just want to distinguish, with the awesome amount of information being injected in this thread, that those wanting to try it, assess their goals to properly start safe protocols that will help them reach those goals. With all 3 of us that have used it with different purposes,different approaches and with different overall results, it’s good to know what you’d want going into it. I’ve been reading for 3 years about how to diet and/or cut on slin, never have I seen it laid out so well as FP did here. Seems like with a little more discipline and macro counting, it seems less daunting now to attempt.

I agree. Just start low and over do the carbs in the beginning to be safe. It took me 3 weeks of gradually increasing the dose to get to 20 units pre workout. And I did protein and carbs every two hours..still do..during that 6 hour window. I did, and do, have a lot of respect for insulin. Just can't cut on it...lol

 

[Newth]

The inhalable insulin was pretty awesome.

I saw this for the first time on the weekend and I thought OOMMFFGG!!
5mins later I learnt it's near 10 years old and my Government has had issues with it for quite a while.
I do think it's like the $hit even from a pharmaceutical standpoint. But a kid getting hold of it stops us from having it I think.

 

[Hyde]

I saw this for the first time on the weekend and I thought OOMMFFGG!!
5mins later I learnt it's near 10 years old and my Government has had issues with it for quite a while.
I do think it's like the $hit even from a pharmaceutical standpoint. But a kid getting hold of it stops us from having it I think.

True, nobody accidentally puts a syringe in themselves they weren’t preparing. Pretty easy for a kid to put something in their mouth. But putting it in a child-safe container would resolve that issue.

 

[Matthersby]

What would you suggest ?

Lantus or Humalog. Good feedback on the pre, hadn’t thought of that... might hold off until I better learn how I’ll feel on slin.

I feel like Humalog, although somewhat stressful, is best for bringing up body parts and putting sure specific size on quickly, with little concern for fat gain.
For overall size, and some possibility for bodyfat increase, Lantus.
And once very comfortable, of course both would be the ultimate.

I’m curious fueledpassion
Do you think the intra slin shake would be as effective with Lantus? I have yet to do it the last two weeks, although I feel like it’s an absolute necessity on Humalog or faster acting insulins.

 

[swimfan65]

I feel like Humalog, although somewhat stressful, is best for bringing up body parts and putting sure specific size on quickly, with little concern for fat gain.
For overall size, and some possibility for bodyfat increase, Lantus.
And once very comfortable, of course both would be the ultimate.

I’m curious fueledpassion
Do you think the intra slin shake would be as effective with Lantus? I have yet to do it the last two weeks, although I feel like it’s an absolute necessity on Humalog or faster acting insulins.

I know the quetion isn't for me, but no. Lantus doesn't have the spike that humalog has, which I time to occur during my work out with my intra shake to absolutely shove the nutirents into the muscle. Lantus is slow and steady...like an IV drip into the muscles 24 hours a day. Humalog is like a shot gun blast...you have like 6 hours, or less, to take advantage of it. Also why it's more dangerous.

 

[Matthersby]

I know the quetion isn't for me, but no. Lantus doesn't have the spike that humalog has, which I time to occur during my work out with my intra shake to absolutely shove the nutirents into the muscle. Lantus is slow and steady...like an IV drip into the muscles 24 hours a day. Humalog is like a shot gun blast...you have like 6 hours, or less, to take advantage of it. Also why it's more dangerous.

That’s pretty much what I was thinking. Just trying to get a steady mass of calories all day long with Lantus and haven’t felt anything at all like that pump and nutrient vacuum in the gym on it. It’s definitely not as exciting as fast insulin but it seems to be a constant and slow builder so far. Every day just slightly fuller and thicker. I’m going to love this stuff 6 months from now, I’m sure of it.

 

[Newth]

True, nobody accidentally puts a syringe in themselves they weren’t preparing. Pretty easy for a kid to put something in their mouth. But putting it in a child-safe container would resolve that issue.

Yeah but like our guns, it we don't have it, it can't happen.
I saw a little of the vid last night and that cartridge idea is safe as though.

 

[fueledpassion]

Love the issue of "Loggin' Times" in the background! Where can a brotha get a copy???

Funny, I’m revealing my profession I suppose. I’m a supply chain specialist in the forestry industry.

 

[fueledpassion]

I feel like Humalog, although somewhat stressful, is best for bringing up body parts and putting sure specific size on quickly, with little concern for fat gain.
For overall size, and some possibility for bodyfat increase, Lantus.
And once very comfortable, of course both would be the ultimate.

I’m curious fueledpassion
Do you think the intra slin shake would be as effective with Lantus? I have yet to do it the last two weeks, although I feel like it’s an absolute necessity on Humalog or faster acting insulins.

You will tell very little difference with or without Latus from a BG standpoint. Lantus is a basal insulin, which means it raises your baseline insulin levels and thus lowers your average BG curve. Or in other words, it lowers your fasted glucose levels. Remember CJC-1295 DAC? Remember how it raises the basal GH level? Same concept here only instead of discussing the positive relationship b/w GH & IGF levels, we’re discussing the negative relationship b/w Lantus and BG levels. If you wake up with 95+ fasted BG, you need something to lower it. You can consider Metformin, which works very well, but also lowers IGF levels so to some degree it works against your efforts. Berberine would be something to consider first.

The ONLY time you need Lantus is with GH or if you are an actual pre-diabetic.

We’re not taking insulin for anabolic purposes folks! It doesn’t work like that. We take it because some other condition is causing an increase in insulin resistance. In BB’ing circles, its almost always from:

1) GH use
2) Prolonged low-carb/extreme dieting
3) Carb intake is excessive and low quality

So is the intra-shake a good idea? I think so. Remember that in natural conditions, you break down muscle mass while training, ramp up sensitivity via Glut4 receptor, then replenish afterwards for hopefully a net increase in muscle mass.

With insulin and plenty of calories and nutrients, we’re trying for a net positive build-up in nitrogen and protein DURING the training session by dumping plenty of protein and carbs into the trained muscle. Why dig a hole just to refill it when we can just skip the hole digging and build a mound?

That’s the idea behind insulin and intra-shakes/meals.

 

[Matthersby]

You will tell very little difference with or without Latus from a BG standpoint. Lantus is a basal insulin, which means it raises your baseline insulin levels and thus lowers your average BG curve. Or in other words, it lowers your fasted glucose levels. Remember CJC-1295 DAC? Remember how it raises the basal GH level? Same concept here only instead of discussing the positive relationship b/w GH & IGF levels, we’re discussing the negative relationship b/w Lantus and BG levels. If you wake up with 95+ fasted BG, you need something to lower it. You can consider Metformin, which works very well, but also lowers IGF levels so to some degree it works against your efforts. Berberine would be something to consider first.

The ONLY time you need Lantus is with GH or if you are an actual pre-diabetic.

We’re not taking insulin for anabolic purposes folks! It doesn’t work like that. We take it because some other condition is causing an increase in insulin resistance. In BB’ing circles, its almost always from:

1) GH use
2) Prolonged low-carb/extreme dieting
3) Carb intake is excessive and low quality

So is the intra-shake a good idea? I think so. Remember that in natural conditions, you break down muscle mass while training, ramp up sensitivity via Glut4 receptor, then replenish afterwards for hopefully a net increase in muscle mass.

With insulin and plenty of calories and nutrients, we’re trying for a net positive build-up in nitrogen and protein DURING the training session by dumping plenty of protein and carbs into the trained muscle. Why dig a hole just to refill it when we can just skip the hole digging and build a mound?

That’s the idea behind insulin and intra-shakes/meals.

Fuk that’s great info. Again, thank you sir.

 

[Matthersby]

My fasting bg has been 99-103 for years btw. This maybe something I just need to be using anyhow.

 

[fueledpassion]

My fasting bg has been 99-103 for years btw. This maybe something I just need to be using anyhow.

I would consider Berberine & cinnamon first. Those can lower it to well below 90 if taken long enough. There are other supplements to are effective as well, Magnesium being one of them.

 

[Newth]

Fuk that’s great info. Again, thank you sir.

I think this thread just skipped atleast a year's worth of trial and error in the last week.
Thank you everybody for contributing.

 

[rtmilburn]

Completely my only point. I could never do what is necessary to reach your size and strength. I’m not built like that, and the amount of eating for me would be close to impossible. I’m actually rather weak and do 99% hypertrophy-only training. But total respect for all that that push themselves to be better every day than the day before regardless of the reason. I just want to distinguish, with the awesome amount of information being injected in this thread, that those wanting to try it, assess their goals to properly start safe protocols that will help them reach those goals. With all 3 of us that have used it with different purposes,different approaches and with different overall results, it’s good to know what you’d want going into it. I’ve been reading for 3 years about how to diet and/or cut on slin, never have I seen it laid out so well as FP did here. Seems like with a little more discipline and macro counting, it seems less daunting now to attempt.

I know this thread is about insulin usage, but I fully believe you would see better hypertrophy if you also included strength training as well.

I know for a fact both on and off gear, I build the most muscle mass when I utilized both. The training I do is powerbuilding. I incorporate my first lift as a powerlifter doing heavy, low reps, lots of sets, and to failure. Then I may throw in another lift like this, I may not depending muscle group, then it's pure bodybuilding from there.

Hell with this style of training I actually get stronger than pure powerlifting too. Also better hypertrophy than pure bodybuilding.

I believe that is due to allowing all muscle cells types to hit and causing growth. As well as strengthening the central nervous system, which I believe is vital to growth.

 

[Matthersby]

I know this thread is about insulin usage, but I fully believe you would see better hypertrophy if you also included strength training as well.

I know for a fact both on and off gear, I build the most muscle mass when I utilized both. The training I do is powerbuilding. I incorporate my first lift as a powerlifter doing heavy, low reps, lots of sets, and to failure. Then I may throw in another lift like this, I may not depending muscle group, then it's pure bodybuilding from there.

Hell with this style of training I actually get stronger than pure powerlifting too. Also better hypertrophy than pure bodybuilding.

I believe that is due to allowing all muscle cells types to hit and causing growth. As well as strengthening the central nervous system, which I believe is vital to growth.

Do you think this warrants starting a thread? I’m actually 100% on board for this plan. My strength is at an all time low and it’s getting old.

 

[rtmilburn]

Yes I do!!! Only problem is I do not have the time to back my claims up with evidence. I've done research in the past, that I used to develop my program, although I don't have it anymore.

I would love to do it but 40 hours of work and 13 college credit is more than enough for me. Haha

 

[Newth]

Yes I do!!! Only problem is I do not have the time to back my claims up with evidence. I've done research in the past, that I used to develop my program, although I don't have it anymore.

I would love to do it but 40 hours of work and 13 college credit is more than enough for me. Haha

I'll take your word for it.
I'm in.