How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[somewhatgifted]

Well SWG if we left everything in mans hands then we would realy be in a bad place. No matter how good someone can be they still have a evil side. There are always things that will bring the evil out of someone, a rapist can help a old lady across the street or a theif can buy some one lunch or go to church and pray then go smoke crack and watch a porno and on and on. Just because of that one good deed or a few he still has a evil and sinful life that will not please God.

Eternal life is a gift and a gift that most people want, I dont know many people that wont to die. So God says to live a certain way, that realy benifits us in the long run, but because man wants to do what he wants he cant justify haveing to bow down to somthing greater then him. God lets us do as we please but all he says in the end is you will be judged for what you do. If people would be real they would admit that the things that God commands us not to do are actually good and if people could follow those things then the world would be so much better. But mens rebelious nature would not allow us to do so.

Thats why it takes Jesus Christ to get you right with God, Jesus was devine and he was a man, all the othe prophets and gurus or idols that people worship have all died or never been alive. Jesus was real and he walked this earth and died as all the other prophets and relegious figures did. The difference between them is that they can all be acounted for there still resting in there tombs and graves. Jesus, no where to be found and no one can explain that.

The things the bible talks about are still relevent to this day and the prophecies are and have come to past.

I respect your position but will politely disagree.

We have to leave it in mans hands, men are all we have on this planet. I can most assuredly say any man who has done wrong was either innocent and unknowing of the pain he has caused OR simply acting out pain the way they were taught.

You cant get sick enough to make someone healthy and you cant get mad enough to make someone happy. By this i mean doing good or being good is the only solution to every problem.

There are always exceptions but this may arise when we try to understand a problem or person that is beyond our comprehension.

Its all fine and dandy to think that someone or something may hand down a punishment for our lives and choices. But lets consider what the point of the religious teachings are, they are values. With values we can self regulate, where our hearts permit, to stay accountable to ourselves and inevitably to mankind for we are a symbiotic globe of life one and the same.

If a rapist was to do something good it is still good, if it were bad then if we made one mistake our lives would spiritually end and we would be damned. This is not true, whats true is the only thing that matters is what you do right now, from this angle ANYONE at ANYTIME can make the world a better place and this is true because that job has no prerequisites.

Such a presence as one divine and all encompassing entity does not require pleasing or punishment. That is an earthly concern and logical to humans since we consider "godly" ideas within our earthly brains. Such a power as all power and such a mind and heart as to allow earth life would not need the petty human like musings of favoritism or damnation.

This idea of hell IMO is having the gift of life and spending it lusting after money, what others have or living by dead ideals that with leave you with just that spiritually. Its like having the most beautifully nutritious meal ever prepared and you neglect to notice it or decide that something from the trash is the "right thing to eat". Life is endless possibilities and when you travel down a highway, depending on what road you take, you WILL arrive somewhere. Heaven as it were is not a club where only the "Selected candidates" are permitted but a direct result of our own choice to be there.
God would not have such a place and this idea of seclusion and punishment are earthly ideas formed by people who got picked last to play sports or who were denied a dance by the girl they liked. Pain manifesting in more pain.

Jesus spoke a message that was by some admissions wonderful, loving and of course common sense to many. He was a messenger and if you give him any more credibility than being an amazing human i believe you are missing the point about ALL life being sacred equally!!

"Hey you killed and tortured my son, i guess ill let you stay alive and let the human race off the hook for awhile." Does this sound logical to you? No it isn't, men think in terms of men. When a man of low consciousness interprets a message from a divine being it is incalcuably complex and almost foreign when portrayed as a story it can be easy to misinterpret.

I could give you a book of truth, a perfect truth from the mind of god and not the recollections of men... it would be up to you to..
1)understand it with pure intention
2)up to you to believe it for its intention
3)up to you to act of it. What is the likelihood that the interpretations of the christian church are accurate as intended?

It is for this reason that i picture Jesus and other prophets as middlemen, interpreters and storytellers. We now have a beautiful message and we are lemmings who insist upon praying and worshiping the messenger. The point of the prophet is to satiate the needs of earth since people, through prayer asked for it. The message was for those who did not already understand much about life and for those who wanted more but didn't know where to get it. Ask and you shall recieve, turn your life around and you are now a different person since you are heading down a different path, as opposed to "damaged goods" destined for gods trash bin. Jesus may have had a PERFECT message but it was up to the people of earth to BELIEVE it. There will be a natural consequence for looking past truth and one may eternally search for it, i don't know this.

Pain and pleasure alike are both opportunities to be better, they are both gifts since they are the result of being alive in the first place. If someone wrongs you, you are able to learn a lesson, understand a teaching and become greater for your maturity. People make mistakes and noone will "burn" for that. For those deliberate offenders there is scarcely a worst punishment than living life in such misery as to be happy to see others miserable. This person will continue down this path until there is someone or something great enough to teach them about love. The answer is allways good or "god" depending (spelling joke).

The likelihood that someone stands to benefit with money and power, righteousness, position and heirarchy are extremely high when you put the power or spiritual belief in the hands of men. This is the reason i believe the interpretations are not pure and therefore SOME of the teachings do not "mesh" with my heart.

If you want god then speak to god from your heart, open your eyes to the beautiful gift of life and nature that sustains it. Listen to what you hear and it will be more pure, individual and wonderful that the old words written in a book many lifetimes ago. Truth does not age but the morality and understanding of a language of truth does inevitably get diluted by a conflicting interest in aquiring such a godlike power that religious position offers.

Even some in this thread claim to be "right" and saying "i cant wait for it to be over so i can be right" ??? you want to die so you can be right?
THIS IS AT THE CENTER OF MOST OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD.
Its not about being right its about being good.

Where is jesus's body? well that is a rediculous question since it does nothing to affect the outcome of what we should do in our life and how we shall carry ourselves. IF we focus on what unites us we are not christian, muslim or catholic etc. We are human.. we want happiness, love and fullfillment from this wild ride on this planet. Its thinking about who is right and who said what that starts to divide us, it turns our brethren into "an idiot", "them" or in some extremes the "enemy".

I don't think there is any problem with prayer, god, jesus or alike but the problem resides in our inability to comprehend the message from a set of eyes focused on being right instead of being good. From this missinterpretation and the attached power inherent to those who are more "righteous" organized religion and a quest for god has managed to do EXTREME harm and continues to this day.
Think of god and heaven like a perfect idea and not a destination live from the idea that life is delicate and needs to be perserved and you will effectively perserve you own life in the process or atleast die doing what was "right". LOL.

 

[Zero V]

There are people who have been to heaven and back. A few books written on those experiences. But what good are they considering you will just write them off anyways? A man is dead for 10 minutes, comes back, talks about heaven, and you would consider him a cook regardless. I do enjoy ones who come back, but from the other place, and no longer have any doubt about the existence of God. LOL.

Every one describes some kinda transcendence when they have a death experience. I have listened to my fathers and grimaced at the reality of his standings with God from what he described. But his choices are his....Then again he has been dead 2 or 3 times now, and never learns...

Gospel is meant to be spoken as truth and as fact. Because is that not the meaning of confidence? Knowing you are right. If not, then that explains the mindset that has led to America being what it is today. A bunch of conforming pansies. Honestly, the Christians put up with more flak, crap, and are stronger than the regular peeps. Much much more self discipline required but a Christian, kinda like martial arts. Though everyone slaps on the name badge and humps around going "Yay for Jesus" without even touching a Bible....

I mean I have done my fair share of dumb crap, no one is perfect. But I am about 200x less likely to get ripped off or killed by a consistent Christian who is always in church that a normal person. Even if you handicap the numbers to make it equal, the odds are that much different at least. Likely more.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Continued from above...

from a set of eyes focused on being right instead of being good. From this missinterpretation and the attached power inherent to those who are more "righteous" organized religion and a quest for god has managed to do EXTREME harm and continues to this day.
Think of god and heaven like a perfect idea and not a destination live from the idea that life is delicate and needs to be perserved and you will effectively perserve you own life in the process or atleast die doing what was "right". LOL.

 

[somewhatgifted]

There are people who have been to heaven and back. A few books written on those experiences. But what good are they considering you will just write them off anyways? A man is dead for 10 minutes, comes back, talks about heaven, and you would consider him a cook regardless. I do enjoy ones who come back, but from the other place, and no longer have any doubt about the existence of God. LOL.

Every one describes some kinda transcendence when they have a death experience. I have listened to my fathers and grimaced at the reality of his standings with God from what he described. But his choices are his....Then again he has been dead 2 or 3 times now, and never learns...

Gospel is meant to be spoken as truth and as fact. Because is that not the meaning of confidence? Knowing you are right. If not, then that explains the mindset that has led to America being what it is today. A bunch of conforming pansies. Honestly, the Christians put up with more flak, crap, and are stronger than the regular peeps. Much much more self discipline required but a Christian, kinda like martial arts. Though everyone slaps on the name badge and humps around going "Yay for Jesus" without even touching a Bible....

I mean I have done my fair share of dumb crap, no one is perfect. But I am about 200x less likely to get ripped off or killed by a consistent Christian who is always in church that a normal person. Even if you handicap the numbers to make it equal, the odds are that much different at least. Likely more.

I Feel we are on different levels.

As usual the content of my post is lost to you, at least according to your response. We are not either right or wrong only different. This is a great metaphor to explain why some religious groups kill each other.. they talk about the same thing differently.

FYI on my 24" Imac i can hold down "control" and scroll my mouse to make windows larger or smaller.... So, just so you know where i am coming from...... I made the screen as big as it can get and my AVI looks HUGE, i am a beast right now!!! lol.

 

[Zero V]

As usual the content of my post is lost to you, atleast according to your response. We are not either right or wrong only different. This is a great metaphor to explain why some religious groups kill eachother.. they talk about the same thing differently.

Many do not talk the same thing. And regardless of talking of the same thing, it doesnt mean they have the secured path that works.

My response was to an earlier post about not being able to talk to someone who has been to heaven. Why assume it was all for your last post? As usual you yourself assume. And you are lost in the mirror reflection of yourself, damn your vain.

Only one religion could work, because each religion includes the fact that outside of it you will fall to hell. There is right and wrong if it comes down to hell. Because not all 3 major religions(the rest are ehh anyways) could possibly make it to heaven. There has to be a right and wrong, defined by each of them. Trying to mesh them all and say everything is ok is the belief of whats that called Bahá'í. Which is a faith that believes all great religions are right, they were simply prophets sent by God for different part of mans history for the needs of that time.

Accept that conflict is often the only way, indifference is not a functional facet of faith. It doesnt really matter if wars are raged and people die. Its actually a programmed necessity that kept the human race greatly functional for a few thousand years. But now, in todays world, we are way way way too overpopulated. It allows corruption to explode, because the ignorant masses far outweigh the rest of humanity.

War between religious groups is kinda like a healthy rivalry. In essence death is actually a reward, all death is is a gateway to paradise, no? As you said.

This is not the problems of the world. The problems of the world stem from the restrictions based on faith today. The world did fine for a few thousand years until the last 50ish. War is not a bad thing religion wise or science wise. It prunes the population, keeps numbers proper, speeds up technology growth, etc. Look around the world today. Obese useless selfish people. But they would completely agree with you.

 

[Zero V]

In essence, until there is one secure solo belief, this world will tear itself apart. Which it very well deserves. As each person passes on, they will have their eyes opened enough, that I have learned to calm down a bit. I do my part, but your soul is yours, Bobs soul is bobs. Mine is mine.

I do wanna know who sells you your weed though. LOL

 

[JDK5386]

Gospel is meant to be spoken as truth and as fact. Because is that not the meaning of confidence? Knowing you are right.

Please answer the following 2 questions:

1. If you know your Church is true and know that it is factual, what is the purpose and meaning of faith in your belief system?

2. I've thought a great deal about religion. I've considered several different ones. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I went to church for two decades. I've made a dozen sincere attempts to integrate prayer into my life. I'm surrounded by religious people. I try to be a positive influence on those around me.

Despite the fact that I've done basically everything a religious person is supposed to do, I have found zero evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support the existence or non-existence of the God of the Bible.

Why have I come to a different conclusion than you? Can reasonable people disagree on subjective, non-verifiable issues? And what about other members of other faiths who also claim to have "confident knowledge" that their faith is the One True Church?


And FYI "Knowing" you are right on subjective, non-verifiable issues like religion or politics is arrogance. You can "know" that 1+1=2; its objective, its verifiable, its true by definition of the terms. But you can't "know" that the holy spirit talking to you is in fact God and not your subconscious, the devil, or secret alien mind control.

In essence, until there is one secure solo belief, this world will tear itself apart.

The irony of this statement is that its only true if you make it true, and you choose to make it true. I don't quote Maher much because he's far too vitriolic, but I think sometimes this notion that some are "Horny for the end of the world" is accurate.

I think reasonable people can disagree and live harmoniously, and so do the vast majority of most people of most faiths. Only literalists (eg those hung up on the factual accuracy of their faith and who frequently ignore the entire spiritual message of their religion) have a problem with other peoples' belief systems.

 

[DmitryWI]

I think reasonable people can disagree and live harmoniously, and so do the vast majority of most people of most faiths. Only literalists (eg those hung up on the factual accuracy of their faith and who frequently ignore the entire spiritual message of their religion) have a problem with other peoples' belief systems.

:clap2:

 

[DmitryWI]

In essence, until there is one secure solo belief, this world will tear itself apart.

It will tear itself apart even if there is only one religion left. People become so f..ing self righteous and they think no matter what they do justified by their God. Think about all the wars between people with the same believe system.
There will never be a piece until all religions cease to exist in the form they exist now.

 

[somewhatgifted]

People who already "know" have stopped taking in new information and are blind to new ideas. This is the perspective of a closed mind and likens spiritual death. This is yet another danger of giving someone a book that they dont really understand. They read the words and miss the ideas and fight and bicker which is contrary to the message they just read.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Many do not talk the same thing. And regardless of talking of the same thing, it doesnt mean they have the secured path that works.

My response was to an earlier post about not being able to talk to someone who has been to heaven. Why assume it was all for your last post? As usual you yourself assume. And you are lost in the mirror reflection of yourself, damn your vain.

Only one religion could work, because each religion includes the fact that outside of it you will fall to hell. There is right and wrong if it comes down to hell. Because not all 3 major religions(the rest are ehh anyways) could possibly make it to heaven. There has to be a right and wrong, defined by each of them. Trying to mesh them all and say everything is ok is the belief of whats that called Bahá'í. Which is a faith that believes all great religions are right, they were simply prophets sent by God for different part of mans history for the needs of that time.

Accept that conflict is often the only way, indifference is not a functional facet of faith. It doesnt really matter if wars are raged and people die. Its actually a programmed necessity that kept the human race greatly functional for a few thousand years. But now, in todays world, we are way way way too overpopulated. It allows corruption to explode, because the ignorant masses far outweigh the rest of humanity.

War between religious groups is kinda like a healthy rivalry. In essence death is actually a reward, all death is is a gateway to paradise, no? As you said.

This is not the problems of the world. The problems of the world stem from the restrictions based on faith today. The world did fine for a few thousand years until the last 50ish. War is not a bad thing religion wise or science wise. It prunes the population, keeps numbers proper, speeds up technology growth, etc. Look around the world today. Obese useless selfish people. But they would completely agree with you.

1) you missed the joke about vanity on my last post
2) you posted your post after a lengthy one by me, with no indication of a target, leaving me to think it may be related.
3)the rest of this post is rediculous IMO, one religion? fall to hell? war is healthy? gateway to paradise (not at all what i said)? fine for thousands of years save the last 50??????? obese people are selfish and like me?? lol thanks tho, i feel validated by you.

 

[jsheely]

Can't we all just... get along?

 

[somewhatgifted]

Can't we all just... get along?

That is largely the point i was making..

 

[Zero V]

Can't we all just... get along?

No we cant. Genetically imprinted on many guys is that desire to be the best, to have that power, to destroy others. Well this drive produces good and bad people regardless of belief. Fighting is done by every living creature on this planet. Its in our blood so to say, not to get along. If we all got along we would be communist.



Another thing I say to people who dont believe in God, what more value does your life have over that of a dog or grass hoppers? Since there is no soul lol.

 

[Zero V]

1) you missed the joke about vanity on my last post
2) you posted your post after a lengthy one by me, with no indication of a target, leaving me to think it may be related.
3)the rest of this post is rediculous IMO, one religion? fall to hell? war is healthy? gateway to paradise (not at all what i said)? fine for thousands of years save the last 50??????? obese people are selfish and like me?? lol thanks tho, i feel validated by you.

You missed some of mine being simply there for the sake of debating. I am saying the opinions you were representing are what a pacifist would represent. The lady smacking down 4 double cheezburgerz with 2 chins and looks related to a walrus definitely is all cool for no war. The guy at the gym, 220 crushing Iron, probably wouldnt mind it as much.

War produces the best in our species. The lack of good war has allowed a genetic backwash to happen. Hence why there are so many issues with people today. The death of 1 billion people, would only improve our world, save for weeping for the families. That being said, War is never evil, though evil people may wage war.

 

[jsheely]

War produces the best in our species. The lack of good war has allowed a genetic backwash to happen. Hence why there are so many issues with people today. The death of 1 billion people, would only improve our world, save for weeping for the families. That being said, War is never evil, though evil people may wage war.

Sieg Heil! Heil Zero!

 

[T-Bone]

Please answer the following 2 questions:

1. If you know your Church is true and know that it is factual, what is the purpose and meaning of faith in your belief system?

It's not faith in a belief system. Its faith in God.

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"



2. I've thought a great deal about religion. I've considered several different ones. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I went to church for two decades. I've made a dozen sincere attempts to integrate prayer into my life. I'm surrounded by religious people. I try to be a positive influence on those around me.

Despite the fact that I've done basically everything a religious person is supposed to do, I have found zero evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support the existence or non-existence of the God of the Bible.

You're putting your trust in Religion when you should have faith and trust in God. Do not look for evidence. Calling yourself a Religious person and saying your doing what you are supposed to do tells me something is wrong.

Why have I come to a different conclusion than you? Can reasonable people disagree on subjective, non-verifiable issues? And what about other members of other faiths who also claim to have "confident knowledge" that their faith is the One True Church?

Just read and follow the word of God. There is only one Faith.


Ephesians 4:5-7
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.".

Man may have changed things, but do not trust in man.


And FYI "Knowing" you are right on subjective, non-verifiable issues like religion or politics is arrogance. You can "know" that 1+1=2; its objective, its verifiable, its true by definition of the terms. But you can't "know" that the holy spirit talking to you is in fact God and not your subconscious, the devil, or secret alien mind control.

My question for you, is how could you not know?.


The irony of this statement is that its only true if you make it true, and you choose to make it true. I don't quote Maher much because he's far too vitriolic, but I think sometimes this notion that some are "Horny for the end of the world" is accurate.

I think reasonable people can disagree and live harmoniously, and so do the vast majority of most people of most faiths. Only literalists (eg those hung up on the factual accuracy of their faith and who frequently ignore the entire spiritual message of their religion) have a problem with other peoples' belief systems.

The problem here is you are looking toward Religion and man or people of this world. If its contrary to what is taught in the Bible, than its not Gods word.


2 Corinthians 5:6-8

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

(For we walk by faith, not by sight

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."


Heres another one for you to think about,


Joshua 24:14-15

"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Zero V]

Sieg Heil! Heil Zero!

if only ^.^ Then I could do things right. Dont worry I wont cook no jews. Just lots of high protein chicken and salmon!

 

[T-Bone]

Whats wrong here IMO is that ppl pray to jesus "jesus the lord and savior" blah blah blah. Jesus was a man and he came from the same place as you and i, we are sons and daughters of god. He wasnt god, he isnt god so why pray to him to save you? If you believe in god then logically you should be able to discern the two.

JESUS IS GOD. You must have been in a Trinitarian Church. JESUS is GOD, NOT THREE PERSONS. Also keep in mind that you can't just say a simple prayer and be saved like the original posted said. You must REPENT of your Sins and be Baptised in the name of JESUS with full water Immersion. Heres a link explaining things better,

Invalid Link Removed

Deuteronomy 6:4

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"


Deuteronomy 32:39

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

JESUS is GOD Manifest in the flesh,

1 Timothy 3:16-17

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

GOD IS ONE,


Galatians 3:20

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."



So if by logic the bible got that part wrong the only verdict is to live a good life, being a loving person and always use your judgement and heart when reading ANY book of ANY nature.

How many gurus, prophets, saviors, healers and alike have there been?

They all more or less say the same things about being a good person so thats the point... where they deivate with sacrifice, pedophilia and contradictions to life are where my judgement says that MAN has had too much a part in the making of such alleged "holy" texts and scripture.

If people insist on spending their lives on their knees praying then i think they are missing out on a chance to STAND UP and MAKE THE world a better place. (Your missing the point here)

Hmmm....That sounds like Faith without action.,

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"


By this decree we, in our own subjective reality, have all the tools, abilities and minds to be godly in our own right and bring justice, kindness, love and hope to this planet!!!

JESUS loves you.

 

[Dadof2]

Accept that conflict is often the only way, indifference is not a functional facet of faith. It doesnt really matter if wars are raged and people die. Its actually a programmed necessity that kept the human race greatly functional for a few thousand years. But now, in todays world, we are way way way too overpopulated. It allows corruption to explode, because the ignorant masses far outweigh the rest of humanity.War between religious groups is kinda like a healthy rivalry. In essence death is actually a reward, all death is is a gateway to paradise, no? As you said.

This is not the problems of the world. The problems of the world stem from the restrictions based on faith today. The world did fine for a few thousand years until the last 50ish. War is not a bad thing religion wise or science wise. It prunes the population, keeps numbers proper, speeds up technology growth, etc. Look around the world today. Obese useless selfish people. But they would completely agree with you.

Zero, you are my Christian brother, and like any good brother I am going to have to take you to task on the erroneous content of this post.

First of all war is not good or Godly or Christian. War is a byproduct of living in this fallen world. There was no bloodshed until the fall of man, and this includes shedding the blood of another man. Had there been no fall there would be no war.

Second. What is with all of this talk of unfit people, unwashed masses, and so forth? Why are these people ignorant and prone to making unwise decisions? The way I see it there are two ways of looking at this question:

1. These folks are inferior for whatever reason: genetics, unfit parents, weak, handicapped, etc.

2. These folks are in spiritual darkness


So which one is it, and more importantly what is the solution to each one?

Well, if the first is true then there really isn't anything wrong with eugenics, and we could just kill them in the womb, or like you say let war thin them out.

Or if the second is true then the answer is bringing them into spiritual light.


Now which position did Jesus take? (and for further reflection what position did Adolf Hitler take?)

Did Jesus teach that the weak needed to be destroyed by the strong? Or did Jesus teach that He is the Light of the World and only through Him could humanity be redeemed?

There is no middle ground here. Either Jesus is able to redeem mankind or it is up to man to do his best to create a utopia on Earth by thinning out undesirables (although I fail to see how utopian life would be for the undesirables being thinned out). Which is it?

If you trust Jesus to redeem you and bring you out of darkness, then wouldn't He be able to do this for any other lost person on this planet?

 

[JDK5386]

You missed some of mine being simply there for the sake of debating. I am saying the opinions you were representing are what a pacifist would represent. The lady smacking down 4 double cheezburgerz with 2 chins and looks related to a walrus definitely is all cool for no war. The guy at the gym, 220 crushing Iron, probably wouldnt mind it as much.

War produces the best in our species. The lack of good war has allowed a genetic backwash to happen. Hence why there are so many issues with people today. The death of 1 billion people, would only improve our world, save for weeping for the families. That being said, War is never evil, though evil people may wage war.

Do you seriously hold this position? I see about 4 glaring holes in the argument, and with respect I don't think this is a terribly mature position.

I also think its pretty incompatible with the philosophy of Christ, but his philosophy is curiously often ignored by Christians because its a very challenging ideology to live by.

The problem here is you are looking toward Religion and man or people of this world. If its contrary to what is taught in the Bible, than its not Gods word.

You've started from a position of 100% acceptance of what the Bible says. Like I said, I've tried your path, and despite my best efforts I never felt any sort of authentic belief. Why is that?

And again, if you "know" whether a religion is true or not, what is the role of faith?

 

[DmitryWI]

ZeroV, there is seriously something wrong with you... Is that what they teach you at your church or something? I doubt that. You are no more different than Hitler or Stalin. And you show this violent behavior in just about thread you post.
You call yourself a Christian after that? Sorry, man, but you are the perfect example why people reject Christianity so much.

 

[T-Bone]

Zero, you are my Christian brother, and like any good brother I am going to have to take you to task on the erroneous content of this post.

First of all war is not good or Godly or Christian. War is a byproduct of living in this fallen world. There was no bloodshed until the fall of man, and this includes shedding the blood of another man. Had there been no fall there would be no war.

Second. What is with all of this talk of unfit people, unwashed masses, and so forth? Why are these people ignorant and prone to making unwise decisions? The way I see it there are two ways of looking at this question:

1. These folks are inferior for whatever reason: genetics, unfit parents, weak, handicapped, etc.

2. These folks are in spiritual darkness


So which one is it, and more importantly what is the solution to each one?

Well, if the first is true then there really isn't anything wrong with eugenics, and we could just kill them in the womb, or like you say let war thin them out.

Or if the second is true then the answer is bringing them into spiritual light.


Now which position did Jesus take? (and for further reflection what position did Adolf Hitler take?)

Did Jesus teach that the weak needed to be destroyed by the strong? Or did Jesus teach that He is the Light of the World and only through Him could humanity be redeemed?

There is no middle ground here. Either Jesus is able to redeem mankind or it is up to man to do his best to create a utopia on Earth by thinning out undesirables (although I fail to see how utopian life would be for the undesirables being thinned out). Which is it?

If you trust Jesus to redeem you and bring you out of darkness, then wouldn't He be able to do this for any other lost person on this planet?

This brings a passage to my mind that I just read tonight, since I made a promise to myself to read at least 1 hour a day of the Bible.


Exodus 15:3

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

I think what Zero is trying to say though is that War is just part of life, like it or not. As Disciples of Jesus Christ we are constantly fighting a war with the Devil. No of course you should not go out looking for War. However you should stand up for what is right in the eyes of the LORD.

Mark 13:13

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

 

[T-Bone]

Do you seriously hold this position? I see about 4 glaring holes in the argument, and with respect I don't think this is a terribly mature position.

I also think its pretty incompatible with the philosophy of Christ, but his philosophy is curiously often ignored by Christians because its a very challenging ideology to live by.




You've started from a position of 100% acceptance of what the Bible says. Like I said, I've tried your path, and despite my best efforts I never felt any sort of authentic belief. Why is that?


Maybe you never found a Church where felt at home, welcome and accepted.

And again, if you "know" whether a religion is true or not, what is the role of faith?

I tried to answer this before. Really I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. If you could elaborate maybe I would understand better.

 

[Zero V]

Most of my ideals placed on here for argument...I would likely never really argue. Save for modified communism.

I honestly can never not help a person, regardless of anything about them.

Most of what I convey is that it DOES NOT matter what anyone says to anyone in an online forum.

Sometimes I think I confuse alot of people. In essence I am a Christian and I constantly challenge the very ideals laid before me, for in doing so I can confirm what I myself believe in. Plus honestly I play devils advocate as much as I can, and currently being a very angry person in life because very few things are left that could go wrong to make it worse(trust me death I consider a blessing, no joke on that one) and by being a bit angry I may over convey things.

A soldier to me is someone worth something, while the crackhead in an ally is not. THAT is inherently my opinion, but I would do just as much to save them equally from harm, or help them equally. But I may have distaste, but regardless of that my heart always owns my sometimes insane ideologies. So what is Right is what is always done.

This is hard to explain online I guess. My friends from church label me as kinda Dark/violent yet they know I would do anything for anyone, at the drop of a pen. Its hard to explain and I guess online it comes across bad. I would thrive and excel in conflict and war based things because honestly such things intrigue me and I a soldier is a hero. Even German soldiers in WWII were not necessarily evil.

The church would highly disagree with me on all my ideas. Then again I have proven myself completely reliable and put forth more effort than alot when it comes to helping people in need.

Mostly its just my personal anger coming through online. My nickname is "bloody scientific" but they never question my loyalty to God. But in a justifiable situation I would choose the most violent path lol.

Just dont think I can make it make sense. The ideas I put on here may not be 100% what I would actually think or do, but they represent instant answers to problems people will continue to argue about forever.

Such as debating anything. I would usually comment something like

"Well load the lazy obese people who have no desire to change up with Cheezeburgers spiked with nitroglycerin, fly em over the people we disagree with and drop em out of a plane. We just solved 2 issues with one solution!"

But that should be taken in effect as the same way you would take a piece from Poe or who was that guy who wrote "How to cook a baby" or whatnot that pissed everyone off in the Renaissance era or what not, but it was really just a statement put out for a reason.

Maybe take everything I say with an understanding of satire.

Seriously otherwise basically all my postings would lead you to believe in me being pretty much insane.

I guess 60% of postings outside of supplementation/lifting should be considered Satire. I have a unique sense of humor. Me and other people from church could be standing around someone who fell and messed up his knee, and I would usually make a comment like "Can we eat him yet?". I forget text does not convey proper emotion.

 

[somewhatgifted]

You called me vain LOL.

 

[Zero V]

You called me vain LOL.

?:usa:

 

[JDK5386]

I tried to answer this before. Really I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. If you could elaborate maybe I would understand better.

I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile the notion of faith, which is by definition of the term confident belief in things unseen, and knowledge, which is necessarily falsifiable and typically based on empirical or externally verifiable factual evidence. Confidently believe, great, but its not knowledge.

You claim that voice inside you is the Holy Spirit. I say it could be, but it also could be the devil, your subconscious, or Tom Cruise. There's no way to prove or disprove your or my ideas, thus I don't claim to have knowledge of the subject; how do you have knowledge that I don't when I've done all the same things you have?

 

[JDK5386]

Sometimes I think I confuse alot of people. In essence I am a Christian and I constantly challenge the very ideals laid before me, for in doing so I can confirm what I myself believe in. Plus honestly I play devils advocate as much as I can, and currently being a very angry person in life because very few things are left that could go wrong to make it worse(trust me death I consider a blessing, no joke on that one) and by being a bit angry I may over convey things.

A soldier to me is someone worth something, while the crackhead in an ally is not. THAT is inherently my opinion, but I would do just as much to save them equally from harm, or help them equally. But I may have distaste, but regardless of that my heart always owns my sometimes insane ideologies. So what is Right is what is always done.

It kills me that you people cling to a factual literalist interpretation of the Bible, yet you totally ignore or cog dis your way out literal interpretations of this:

"Mt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. "

and

"Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"

and

"Mt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

and

"Ro 12.17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads."

Was God bull****ting here, are we ready to admit that the Bible's primary truth is allegorical and message-based, or is this just too inconvenient to accept?

 

[DR.D]

how do god and jesus feel about AAS?

Androgen = a compound that stimulates masculine characteristics

I think God's probably flattered. Why wouldn't He be? Kinda in the same way you laugh at a picture your two year old draws for you though, you get an E for Effort, lol.

Man makes many crutches for himself, to improve or enhance his body, and that is not discouraged in the Bible. Does anybody think it's unethical for the blind man to wear glasses? Of course not. It's not natural vision or what he was born with, but nobody would say he's wrong to seek improvement so he can see. Or is it a sin for an ugly woman to wear makeup, so she can improver her appearance a little? Hey, if the barn needs paintin', then paint it! (lol)

So where do you draw the line? If a man lacks strength or has low androgen levels, should he not seek to improve his deficiency as well, and if not then why the double standard?!

God measures a man by his intent, his heart. If your motives are legit, so are the things in your hands. ALL things are pure to the pure of heart. The Bible also says that ALL things are lawful, but be careful because not all things are profitable.

 

[JDK5386]

As to earlier ideas here presented on war being a positive for a harshly darwinian human evolution, here's a wonderful article on a new thesis of Dr. Stephen Hawking on the shifting role of human evolution:

Invalid Link Removed

Notice that he mentions aggression as the third most important evolutionary holdover to eliminate, right after curing diseases and raising people's intelligence levels.

 

[Rick28]

Androgen = a compound that stimulates masculine characteristics

I think God's probably flattered. Why wouldn't He be? Kinda in the same way you laugh at a picture your two year old draws for you though, you get an E for Effort, lol.

Man makes many crutches for himself, to improve or enhance his body, and that is not discouraged in the Bible. Does anybody think it's unethical for the blind man to wear glasses? Of course not. It's not natural vision or what he was born with, but nobody would say he's wrong to seek improvement so he can see. Or is it a sin for an ugly woman to wear makeup, so she can improver her appearance a little? Hey, if the barn needs paintin', then paint it! (lol)

So where do you draw the line? If a man lacks strength or has low androgen levels, should he not seek to improve his deficiency as well, and if not then why the double standard?!

God measures a man by his intent, his heart. If your motives are legit, so are the things in your hands. ALL things are pure to the pure of heart. The Bible also says that ALL things are lawful, but be careful because not all things are profitable.

suprising post, I like this

 

[Dadof2]

This brings a passage to my mind that I just read tonight, since I made a promise to myself to read at least 1 hour a day of the Bible.


Exodus 15:3

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

I think what Zero is trying to say though is that War is just part of life, like it or not. As Disciples of Jesus Christ we are constantly fighting a war with the Devil. No of course you should not go out looking for War. However you should stand up for what is right in the eyes of the LORD.

Mark 13:13

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

As for war being a part of life, it is, it is a part of this world system. This fallen world system that is under Satanic influence (if you believe the Christian tradition). God is not death, God is the antithesis of death. God is Life, sin is death. The first war came after the fall, not before it.

All that said, until the world is redeemed the world will see war (because sin makes war, sin came after the fall, Satan became ruler of this world after the fall. Therefore war is of Satan, not God). We anxiously await the return of Christ so that He will being peace and harmony back to this world. If war was one of the qualities of God then why are we so hopeful of the sinless, deathless, peaceful world to come?


I am curious though, why did you bring up the scripture from Mark?

 

[lozgod]

This thread ain't funny anymore. How do I unsubscribe?

 

[AlbinoRhino44]

I like how Dr.D has that "the lord is a sheild to those who beileve" as his sig. That kinda sums up all religion. All who are afraid of death follow a faith, and adopt all the bullshot that comes with their respective "great book". Its a total package, some jackass says that you have to believe everything and anything you disagree with, well, you don't anymore if you want to be a part of this following buddy! Thats ****. I think one should follow a philosophy of life and death, so that one may choose what is right and wrong for one's self. Bc peter and paul can't tell me ****, who are they? humans. we are all created in gods likeness, and we are all equal and have free will? then guess what, my brain works as a standalone, and we should all choose to live live on our own terms. Hopefully we all choose to live rightously, but we all have options and can do as we please.

To Zero V, stop lying and hiding behind your religions tenants: with your point of view you are not a great christrian. you arent even trying. Just admit that and you can take lying off your list or mortal sins, and be that much better for it, with that much less work to do.

And to those that want to "spread the word" to all, is that like the crusades too? like jihad? people so regularly like to point a finger at one faith while ignoring the exact same tenat within their own faith. be objective, be human, don't be the everbelieving in bull**** robot that many have become.

 

[fightbackhxc]

I am a Christian. I just don't believe this is the right place to be a missionary. Especially if you show no interest in exercise/fitness and this is your only post.

If you are a christian it is your duty to be a missionary to everyone at anytime. There is no "wrong" or "right" place.

I am not here to judge anyone but to be a christian means to follow Christ.

To believe that he exists is not enough for the bible says that even the demons believe "in" God.

 

[fightbackhxc]

It kills me that you people cling to a factual literalist interpretation of the Bible, yet you totally ignore or cog dis your way out literal interpretations of this:

"Mt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. "

and

"Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"

and

"Mt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

and

"Ro 12.17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads."

Was God bull****ting here, are we ready to admit that the Bible's primary truth is allegorical and message-based, or is this just too inconvenient to accept?

All of the Bible's prophecies have been literal so I will continue to believe in a literal fashion, certainly the bible has allagorical applications such as parables but to say its all that is somewhat naive.

 

[Dadof2]

I like how Dr.D has that "the lord is a sheild to those who beileve" as his sig. That kinda sums up all religion. All who are afraid of death follow a faith, and adopt all the bullshot that comes with their respective "great book". Its a total package, some jackass says that you have to believe everything and anything you disagree with, well, you don't anymore if you want to be a part of this following buddy! Thats ****. I think one should follow a philosophy of life and death, so that one may choose what is right and wrong for one's self. Bc peter and paul can't tell me ****, who are they? humans. we are all created in gods likeness, and we are all equal and have free will? then guess what, my brain works as a standalone, and we should all choose to live live on our own terms. Hopefully we all choose to live rightously, but we all have options and can do as we please.

To Zero V, stop lying and hiding behind your religions tenants: with your point of view you are not a great christrian. you arent even trying. Just admit that and you can take lying off your list or mortal sins, and be that much better for it, with that much less work to do.

And to those that want to "spread the word" to all, is that like the crusades too? like jihad? people so regularly like to point a finger at one faith while ignoring the exact same tenat within their own faith. be objective, be human, don't be the everbelieving in bull**** robot that many have become.

It is hard to take anything you say seriously when your post is full of glaring misspellings, sweeping generalizations, and logical fallacies.

 

[JDK5386]

All of the Bible's prophecies have been literal so I will continue to believe in a literal fashion, certainly the bible has allagorical applications such as parables but to say its all that is somewhat naive.

Care to back your assertion that "all of the Bible's prophecies have been literal (and came true)"? Cause, like, I'm pretty sure a literal interpretation of much of the Old Testament went out the window with the discovery of dinosaur bones.

I'm not sure whether the rest of the Bible is factually accurate or not, and frankly its factual accuracy is irrelevant compared to the central spiritual messages of the New Testament. That the irrelevant details are emphasized over the message is the primary reason I have little respect for Mormons, Evangelicals, and other Christians who push their beliefs (which often miss the entire point of their faith to begin with) on others.

 

[fightbackhxc]

Well firstly and kindly, I am not pushing beliefs on anyone. Second of all I am referring to prophecies such as the re-building of the temple in Israel which the bible foretold would need to happen in order for events to arise leading to the coming back of Christ.

You can check out this website for some information I found. I am trying to get back to you quickly but if your wanting actual scripture references I can get those to you just not as quickly.

Invalid Link Removed

Israel has already started to rebuild the temple.

However I understand if you do not believe in the bible, that these do not mean much to you. I was saying from my standpoint since I believe that most prophecies in the bible are literal, I take a literal approach to things that the bible says unless its a given its a parable or story conveying a message.

 

[AlbinoRhino44]

It is hard to take anything you say seriously when your post is full of glaring misspellings, sweeping generalizations, and logical fallacies.

Well try harder. Just re-read it and reply to the content. It can be done. I can spell, and type (hardly though). I didn't know this entry would be graded for syntax and such, or I sure would have strived to please you.

 

[Dadof2]

Well try harder. Just re-read it and reply to the content. It can be done. I can spell, and type (hardly though). I didn't know this entry would be graded for syntax and such, or I sure would have strived to please you.

Don't shoot the messenger.

If presentation wasn't important debators would show up to public debates in their underwear, ramble incoherently about a subject that they seem ill prepared to debate, and then knock over the podium in a drunken stupor.

 

[NattyT]

Androgen = a compound that stimulates masculine characteristics

I think God's probably flattered. Why wouldn't He be? Kinda in the same way you laugh at a picture your two year old draws for you though, you get an E for Effort, lol.

Man makes many crutches for himself, to improve or enhance his body, and that is not discouraged in the Bible. Does anybody think it's unethical for the blind man to wear glasses? Of course not. It's not natural vision or what he was born with, but nobody would say he's wrong to seek improvement so he can see. Or is it a sin for an ugly woman to wear makeup, so she can improver her appearance a little? Hey, if the barn needs paintin', then paint it! (lol)

So where do you draw the line? If a man lacks strength or has low androgen levels, should he not seek to improve his deficiency as well, and if not then why the double standard?!

God measures a man by his intent, his heart. If your motives are legit, so are the things in your hands. ALL things are pure to the pure of heart. The Bible also says that ALL things are lawful, but be careful because not all things are profitable.

Right ON D, Where you been hiding Brother, as god as my wittness you have been on my mind everytime I get on here. I hope all is going well for you, its good to see you.:jester:

 

[AlbinoRhino44]

Don't shoot the messenger.

If presentation wasn't important debators would show up to public debates in their underwear, ramble incoherently about a subject that they seem ill prepared to debate, and then knock over the podium in a drunken stupor.

Yes they would. Sure. Indeed, I find it interesting how once someone makes sense when talking about religion the followers of one change the subject or go to the you have no faith. And thats a run on sentence for you...

 

[lozgod]

No offense but most christians do not live as if they believe in Christianity.

Suicide bomber muslims believe if they suicide bomb they will go to heaven and get 1000 virgins. So they do the ultimate sacrifice for their God.

If christians really believed they would not go to heaven they wouldn't have pre-marital relations, cuss, drink, etc. etc.

I believe I will die if I jump off a 20 story building so I don't jump off 20 story buildings. Being cast in to a lake of fire is 1000000000000 times worse than death. If you TRULY believed that would happen to you for sinning you would follow the bible to a T.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile the notion of faith, which is by definition of the term confident belief in things unseen, and knowledge, which is necessarily falsifiable and typically based on empirical or externally verifiable factual evidence. Confidently believe, great, but its not knowledge.

You claim that voice inside you is the Holy Spirit. I say it could be, but it also could be the devil, your subconscious, or Tom Cruise. There's no way to prove or disprove your or my ideas, thus I don't claim to have knowledge of the subject; how do you have knowledge that I don't when I've done all the same things you have?

I don't claim anything, JESUS does. I'm from Jesus and not from this world. Also I don't have to prove JESUS as these are not my ideas or even ideas but just the plain word of GOD.

Luke 8:8-16


"And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. "



You seem to be trying to prove Faith through things of this world. Earthly knowledge is very different than spirtual knowledge. We are more spirit than Flesh.

Colossians 3:2

"Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

Galatians 5:16-26

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."



1 Thessalonians 1:5

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

With Faith comes Knowledge. Because your are doubting you have little Faith. How do you know you have done all the things I have done?.


John 20:29 says,

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

[fightbackhxc]

No offense but most christians do not live as if they believe in Christianity.

Suicide bomber muslims believe if they suicide bomb they will go to heaven and get 1000 virgins. So they do the ultimate sacrifice for their God.

If christians really believed they would not go to heaven they wouldn't have pre-marital relations, cuss, drink, etc. etc.

I believe I will die if I jump off a 20 story building so I don't jump off 20 story buildings. Being cast in to a lake of fire is 1000000000000 times worse than death. If you TRULY believed that would happen to you for sinning you would follow the bible to a T.

Then a christian life would be in constant contradiction because the bible calls us all sinners. Jesus died on the cross for a reason, to save us from our sins. Nowhere in the bible, does God call us to be perfect, but rather strive to live a holy and blameless life.

 

[T-Bone]

Then a christian life would be in constant contradiction because the bible calls us all sinners. Jesus died on the cross for a reason, to save us from our sins. Nowhere in the bible, does God call us to be perfect, but rather strive to live a holy and blameless life.

YES!.

 

[lozgod]

Then a christian life would be in constant contradiction because the bible calls us all sinners. Jesus died on the cross for a reason, to save us from our sins. Nowhere in the bible, does God call us to be perfect, but rather strive to live a holy and blameless life.

Good answer. I live and let live. To each his own.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile the notion of faith, which is by definition of the term confident belief in things unseen, and knowledge, which is necessarily falsifiable and typically based on empirical or externally verifiable factual evidence. Confidently believe, great, but its not knowledge.

You claim that voice inside you is the Holy Spirit. I say it could be, but it also could be the devil, your subconscious, or Tom Cruise. There's no way to prove or disprove your or my ideas, thus I don't claim to have knowledge of the subject; how do you have knowledge that I don't when I've done all the same things you have?

Proverbs 3:5


"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding"