Homemade preworkout vs premade one

mcc23

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Hey guys I've been takin hemavol as my pwo of choice. I do love it but 40 bucks after shipping every month, in combination with my other supps, is getting expensive. I was wondering if a homemade pwo with agmatine as base pump ingredient would be just as good? Obviously I don't want 5,6,7 ingredients in it. No caffeine. I figured agmatine, Citrulline, GPLC. Or would just taking agmatine pwo be a good idea?
 
neddo

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GPLC is and of itself is rather expensive as well. You can make your own that will be cheaper of course.

ALCAR 2g, Agmatine 1g, Citrulline Malate 7g, Beta Alanine/Creatine 3g/3g (not pertinent to being dosed peri-workout; simply for convenience), GMS 6g; etc.
 
mpaquett

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GPLC is and of itself is rather expensive as well. You can make your own that will be cheaper of course.

ALCAR 2g, Agmatine 1g, Citrulline Malate 7g, Beta Alanine/Creatine 3g/3g (not pertinent to being dosed peri-workout; simply for convenience), GMS 6g; etc.
This sounds good, but buying all of the bulk ingredients I'm not convinced would save you very much money. My suggestion would be to start stripping. ;)
 

mcc23

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This sounds good, but buying all of the bulk ingredients I'm not convinced would save you very much money. My suggestion would be to start stripping. ;)
Then in that case, Agmatine and Citrulline would be the main 2 I'd go w/. Already have some mono in storage.
 
mpaquett

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beta-alanine would be a good one to keep around also
 
warbird01

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GPLC is and of itself is rather expensive as well. You can make your own that will be cheaper of course.

ALCAR 2g, Agmatine 1g, Citrulline Malate 7g, Beta Alanine/Creatine 3g/3g (not pertinent to being dosed peri-workout; simply for convenience), GMS 6g; etc.
This.

If you make your own, you can mess around with doses too.

Only reason I sometimes buy pre made ones is the convenience.
 

mcc23

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This.

If you make your own, you can mess around with doses too.

Only reason I sometimes buy pre made ones is the convenience.

I remember doing a cost/benefit analysis comparing popular premade pwo's vs homemade ones..I wish I still had it saved on my comp.. But if you have the upfront money, it's way more cost efficient to buy bulk and just make your own..I don't remember exactly but I believe the ingredients lasted me for 6 months and total cost put out was like 100 tops..Maybe less..Also, for flavor, some sugar free kool-aid always does the trick!
 

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I used to make my own. I like premade better now; maybe I just got too lazy.
 
oufinny

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I used to make my own. I like premade better now; maybe I just got too lazy.
This is my thought and flavoring, mixing, measuring while I am at work is not something I want to deal with. I like other people doing the thinking sometimes and once you find a good pre-workout, all you have to do is drink and show up to the gym.
 

mr.cooper69

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This is precisely what I do with SNS:

1 serving Ephedrine + Caffeine
9g SNS Citrulline Malate
2g SNS ALCAR
2g Glucuronolactone
Nitrate source of choice (I use APS Creatine Nitrate or yok3d)
 

mcc23

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This is precisely what I do with SNS:

1 serving Ephedrine + Caffeine
9g SNS Citrulline Malate
2g SNS ALCAR
2g Glucuronolactone
Nitrate source of choice (I use APS Creatine Nitrate or yok3d)
Why do you add in nitrates? No agmatine?
 
oufinny

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Nitrates have a lot of good data on them, and they work for me. I take agmatine with food
This is my take on them, and mind you I like the effect I get from them. They are not necessary. If you workout hard, you can get great pumps with carbs or with no carbs. Actually when I eat a higher fat, low carb diet, I get WAY better pumps that way than I do eating a lot of carbs. Nitrates just enhance the effect that is why I view them as highly optional (but I still love the extra pump I get from a pre-workout with them).
 

mcc23

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This is my take on them, and mind you I like the effect I get from them. They are not necessary. If you workout hard, you can get great pumps with carbs or with no carbs. Actually when I eat a higher fat, low carb diet, I get WAY better pumps that way than I do eating a lot of carbs. Nitrates just enhance the effect that is why I view them as highly optional (but I still love the extra pump I get from a pre-workout with them).
I dont understand the logic behind better pumps w. lower carbs other than less water retention.. But carbs pre workout will always give a better pump.. It's how much you consume the rest of the day which creates that water retention that can make vascularity less prominent
 

SweetLou321

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What are the other benifits? I have a bottle of yoked laying around.
 

mr.cooper69

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This is my take on them, and mind you I like the effect I get from them. They are not necessary. If you workout hard, you can get great pumps with carbs or with no carbs. Actually when I eat a higher fat, low carb diet, I get WAY better pumps that way than I do eating a lot of carbs. Nitrates just enhance the effect that is why I view them as highly optional (but I still love the extra pump I get from a pre-workout with them).
I don't use them for a pump
 

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This is precisely what I do with SNS:

1 serving Ephedrine + Caffeine
9g SNS Citrulline Malate
2g SNS ALCAR
2g Glucuronolactone
Nitrate source of choice (I use APS Creatine Nitrate or yok3d)
That looks really solid bro.
 

mcc23

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This is precisely what I do with SNS:

1 serving Ephedrine + Caffeine
9g SNS Citrulline Malate
2g SNS ALCAR
2g Glucuronolactone
Nitrate source of choice (I use APS Creatine Nitrate or yok3d)
I like this combo.. I'm on a major stim break as I have epic adrenal fatigue so caff/stims are a no go.. S*** sucks horribly.. Got a doc appt on Thurs to get a hydrocortisone rx. Hopefully it'll work...Anyways, that was off track..I was thinkin Citrulline, Agmatine, Alcar, and a nitrate, plus maybe Beta-Alanine.
 

mr.cooper69

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I like this combo.. I'm on a major stim break as I have epic adrenal fatigue so caff/stims are a no go.. S*** sucks horribly.. Got a doc appt on Thurs to get a hydrocortisone rx. Hopefully it'll work...Anyways, that was off track..I was thinkin Citrulline, Agmatine, Alcar, and a nitrate, plus maybe Beta-Alanine.
You won't get an Rx as most physicians regonize stimulant-induced adrenal fatigue is non existent. But that combo is awesome, yup
 

mcc23

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You won't get an Rx as most physicians regonize stimulant-induced adrenal fatigue is non existent. But that combo is awesome, yup
Yea I know thats what I'm a bit leery about.. I'm goin to tell them straight up that it's from abuse of stimulants..Besides, how hard is it to prescribe hydrocortisone in small doses? .I hope they aren't ignorant b/c I can't deal with the brain fog 24/7

edit: I know adrenal fatigue results in low cortisol levels (hence why im looking to get IsoCort rx) but will I get "fatter" using this? I have a squeaky clean diet as it is, but hormones can affect this.. Thanks
 
oufinny

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I like this combo.. I'm on a major stim break as I have epic adrenal fatigue so caff/stims are a no go.. S*** sucks horribly.. Got a doc appt on Thurs to get a hydrocortisone rx. Hopefully it'll work...Anyways, that was off track..I was thinkin Citrulline, Agmatine, Alcar, and a nitrate, plus maybe Beta-Alanine.
Where is the sublingual dose of B12, that will help a ton with natural energy as will a high dose of ALCAR (2-4 grams).
 

mcc23

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Where is the sublingual dose of B12, that will help a ton with natural energy as will a high dose of ALCAR (2-4 grams).
I've been doin a b complex along w/ vitamin c every morning.. Hasn't really seemed to do anything for me, tbh
 
oufinny

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I've been doin a b complex along w/ vitamin c every morning.. Hasn't really seemed to do anything for me, tbh
Did you miss the SUBLINGUAL part I posted? The absorption rate is so much higher that way.
 

mr.cooper69

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Yea I know thats what I'm a bit leery about.. I'm goin to tell them straight up that it's from abuse of stimulants..Besides, how hard is it to prescribe hydrocortisone in small doses? .I hope they aren't ignorant b/c I can't deal with the brain fog 24/7

edit: I know adrenal fatigue results in low cortisol levels (hence why im looking to get IsoCort rx) but will I get "fatter" using this? I have a squeaky clean diet as it is, but hormones can affect this.. Thanks
There is no reason to use cortisone. One cannot induce adrenal fatigue by using basic stims like caffeine, even at megadoses.
 

mr.cooper69

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Did you miss the SUBLINGUAL part I posted? The absorption rate is so much higher that way.
It's actually near identical (quantified via study) unless you have an intrinsic factor deficiency (which I happen to have lol).
 
djbombsquad

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ALCAR 1g, Agmatine 1g, Citrulline Malate 4g, Beta Alanine/Creatine 3g/3g GMS 6g; Gplc at 3-4 grams and Leucine or amino complex, nootropics too!
 

mcc23

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There is no reason to use cortisone. One cannot induce adrenal fatigue by using basic stims like caffeine, even at megadoses.
Then what could be the cause? Everything I've read point to overuse of caffeine

Several sources also say this.
 
rob112

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Then what could be the cause? Everything I've read point to overuse of caffeine

Several sources also say this.
Cell receptors bro. Thy body wants thou homeostasis! Look up adenosine and caffeine. It is fascinating.
 

mr.cooper69

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Then what could be the cause? Everything I've read point to overuse of caffeineSeveral sources also say this.
I'm guessing the sources saying this are either homeopathic quacks or e-scientists
 

mcc23

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I'm guessing the sources saying this are either homeopathic quacks or e-scientists
Ugh that's not good. I mean all of the symptoms of it match to what I'm feeling. Lack of energy, motivation, Signs of depression, brain fog, sudden hair loss, etc... The only cause I can think of is my excess use of caffeine in my pwo's. I know something's out of whack and I want to get it fixed ASAP.

Edit: I can start a new thread about AF, as it kind of deviates from the initial thread topic..but I don't think anyone really cares lol
 
B5150

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Ugh that's not good. I mean all of the symptoms of it match to what I'm feeling. Lack of energy, motivation, Signs of depression, brain fog, sudden hair loss, etc... The only cause I can think of is my excess use of caffeine in my pwo's. I know something's out of whack and I want to get it fixed ASAP.

Edit: I can start a new thread about AF, as it kind of deviates from the initial thread topic..but I don't think anyone really cares lol
You are welcome to start a new thread. Research the board first. You may find that it is an "urban myth" :)
 
B5150

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I am not dismissing your anecdotal experience.

Let me ask you - you are 5'11" tall and 160lbs? That is quite thin even if you are very very lean. In the event that you are very very lean your leptin and other brain/body physiology can casue those symptoms. In the event that you are not very lean than that is very skinny.

How is your diet? Macros? EFA? When is the last time you over-ate and or ate in surplus (with lots of complex carbs) for extended periods?

Lots of other factor can produce the symptoms you are experiencing.
 

SweetLou321

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Come on dude! Read what I linked you. No disrespect but you have the information right at your finger tips. It will answer your questions.
Just being lazy, will read it now.
 

mcc23

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I am not dismissing your anecdotal experience.

Let me ask you - you are 5'11" tall and 160lbs? That is quite thin even if you are very very lean. In the event that you are very very lean your leptin and other brain/body physiology can casue those symptoms. In the event that you are not very lean than that is very skinny.

How is your diet? Macros? EFA? When is the last time you over-ate and or ate in surplus (with lots of complex carbs) for extended periods?

Lots of other factor can produce the symptoms you are experiencing.

Well im 166 now. But I carb cycle. On my lifting days I consume ~3400 calories (320P,250c,~100f), and on off days its about 1800..But it's a muscular 166 I'm like 7% bf...I usually don't even binge eat on carbs. Only hiccup I can think of w/ diet is that I eat pretty much the same stuff every day. Chicken, Tuna, Egg/Egg Whites, Brown Rice, Oats, Natty PB, almonds..

Edit: Supps include:
Protein
Creapure
Fish Oil
GDA/NP (new)
Non-stim Pwo
Multi
Vit C
B complex
 
B5150

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How long do you believe you can stay at 7% bodyfat before you start to get some negative feedback? IMHO you should put on some bodyfat and see how you feel. I'm sure that is not what you want to hear. Consider I'm no expert. ;)

Best of luck!
 

mcc23

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How long do you believe you can stay at 7% bodyfat before you start to get some negative feedback? IMHO you should put on some bodyfat and see how you feel. I'm sure that is not what you want to hear. Consider I'm no expert. ;)

Best of luck!
Well, 7% IMO isn't drastically low. I figure its a level that you can hover around year round.. 4% on the other hand is a bit low. Anyway, I honestly don't understand how adding fat would help. And yes, it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear.. But I'm lean bulking atm and can expect to put on a little, but it'll still come off come cut time around January

edit: I know Leptin levels are positively coorelated to bf% but don't see how it would produce the symptoms I've listed
 
Mitch5

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Well, 7% IMO isn't drastically low. I figure its a level that you can hover around year round.. 4% on the other hand is a bit low. Anyway, I honestly don't understand how adding fat would help. And yes, it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear.. But I'm lean bulking atm and can expect to put on a little, but it'll still come off come cut time around January

edit: I know Leptin levels are positively coorelated to bf% but don't see how it would produce the symptoms I've listed
At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
Your choice goal dependent
 
neddo

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At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
Your choice goal dependent
While he didn't ask for advice, I do echo this. The amount of calories you're taking in from your protein will be next to useless once you've reached the optimal intake (which hasn't been proven to be anything more than 1.2-1.4g/kg for even weight training individuals) as you will utilize at best ~10% of the extra calories for energy-needs IIRC.

But, to each their own.
 

mcc23

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At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
Your choice goal dependent
Not cutting for atleast 2 months. We're getting off track from what the initial conversation was..Well, it diverted from pwo's to adrenal fatigue but I'd like to get some more advice about the adrenal fatigue part.

I understand im not the ideal weight, but I'm definetly not skinny either..These symptoms began occuring roughly 4 months ago. I've got a dr. appointment tomorrow, and I don't really feel like payin a co-pay to a doctor thats just gonna tell me that adrenal fatigue does not exist. I've always been lighter than usual, but I don't see why now it would become an issue
 
Mitch5

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Not cutting for atleast 2 months. We're getting off track from what the initial conversation was..Well, it diverted from pwo's to adrenal fatigue but I'd like to get some more advice about the adrenal fatigue part.

I understand im not the ideal weight, but I'm definetly not skinny either..These symptoms began occuring roughly 4 months ago. I've got a dr. appointment tomorrow, and I don't really feel like payin a co-pay to a doctor thats just gonna tell me that adrenal fatigue does not exist. I've always been lighter than usual, but I don't see why now it would become an issue
I meant it more in a way of if your lifting really hard and not gaining much weight then switching to a cut and losing ( something) that's going to make you tired/weak. Calories are energy, if your lean bulk to cut is keeping you at a near deficit all the time your not getting enough to keep your body turning properly. That's why bb'ers bulk crazy hard then cut extremely hard in a short period and only hold that through comp then eat after that like a horse.
My point is maybe your symptoms are not "adrenal fatigue" but just "run down" from training/stimulating/calorie deficient for a long time. Just a thought.
 

mcc23

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I meant it more in a way of if your lifting really hard and not gaining much weight then switching to a cut and losing ( something) that's going to make you tired/weak. Calories are energy, if your lean bulk to cut is keeping you at a near deficit all the time your not getting enough to keep your body turning properly. That's why bb'ers bulk crazy hard then cut extremely hard in a short period and only hold that through comp then eat after that like a horse.
My point is maybe your symptoms are not "adrenal fatigue" but just "run down" from training/stimulating/calorie deficient for a long time. Just a thought.
I understand your point, and appreciate your input..So would adjusting daily calories be a good start? I like the idea of carb cycling b/c it minimizes fat gains. If I eat at maintenance on off days (instead of 200cal deficit) and increase my on day cals up to say 3600, that would be sufficient for recovery and prevent me from feeling run down? Oh and also another member mentioned about my protein intake being too high.. Well, I've heard 1g/lb, 1.5g/lb and up to 2g/lb.. Main reason why I err on the high side is because I have a slight carbophobia lol.. I'm getting better as I put down upwards 290g on leg days, but I've been told that I shouldn't worry about eating so many as eating the majority of them around my workout window will prevent de novo lipogensis..Also, I have a little R-ala and SS that I could use for sanity purposes..

edit:perhaps I should re-consider the whole carb/calorie cycling thing..I'd like to think a lean bulk is possible by means other than carb cycling.. Just a 300-500 cal surplus each day, regardless of lifting or not? And adjust macro-comp accordingly.?
 
neddo

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edit:perhaps I should re-consider the whole carb/calorie cycling thing..I'd like to think a lean bulk is possible by means other than carb cycling.. Just a 300-500 cal surplus each day, regardless of lifting or not? And adjust macro-comp accordingly.?
I was going to harp on this as the end-all-be-all regarding weight gain. If you lift appropriately in the gym, eat appropriately in the kitchen, get ample rest in the bedroom, the gains will come. I personally advertise nothing more than 1g PRO/lbs at most, as that is already more than the studied amount at 1.4g/kg (.7g/lbs). Carbs are where we derive our energy, as are fats and neither should necessarily 'scare' you; however, I understand the phobia.

The simple response is energy in > energy out; however, protein intakes that exceed our body's needs (read: natty, not on gear as that would warrant a higher protein intake) will not be utilized for energy as carbs and fats would. I started out with 2g/lbs protein, low fat, and moderate carbs when I first started and had to chug down so many shakes; but the reality is that I've made more gains lately with 1g/lbs protein, moderate fat and moderate carbs, as the extra energy from the increased fat/carbs has aided more so than the excess protein ever did (anecdotally).
 

mcc23

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I was going to harp on this as the end-all-be-all regarding weight gain. If you lift appropriately in the gym, eat appropriately in the kitchen, get ample rest in the bedroom, the gains will come. I personally advertise nothing more than 1g PRO/lbs at most, as that is already more than the studied amount at 1.4g/kg (.7g/lbs). Carbs are where we derive our energy, as are fats and neither should necessarily 'scare' you; however, I understand the phobia.

The simple response is energy in > energy out; however, protein intakes that exceed our body's needs (read: natty, not on gear as that would warrant a higher protein intake) will not be utilized for energy as carbs and fats would. I started out with 2g/lbs protein, low fat, and moderate carbs when I first started and had to chug down so many shakes; but the reality is that I've made more gains lately with 1g/lbs protein, moderate fat and moderate carbs, as the extra energy from the increased fat/carbs has aided more so than the excess protein ever did (anecdotally).
Thanks for the reply..So regardless of on day or off day, shoot for ~3500 calories (which is about 500 cal surplus), but the only thing that changes is the composition of carbs/fats on lifting/off days? Fat gains will be minimized through proper nutrient timing, sources of these macros, modest surplus of total calories, adequate rest, and some light intensity cardio 2-3x/week...?


edit: I know this thread has taken several detours but either way it's helpin me get back on track.I'm hopin the food is the culprit and not actual adrenal damage...Thanks in advance.
 
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