HELP PLEASE Workout partner is a puss & wont squat help me convince him 2

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iron addict

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I'd just kind of like to finsih this one, that ANYONE can be a competeitive BB?!?!?!?!? And so it's just not my and your opinion. Why don't you just take this topic (that you can train ANYONE to the point they are able to compete) to a few other boards and make a post or two stating that.
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Dwight Schrute

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Don't end it now, what else am I going to do while doing paperwork?


IA, I can make even YOU a competitor :D
 
Dwight Schrute

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I'd just kind of like to finsih this one, that ANYONE can be a competeitive BB?!?!?!?!? And so it's just not my and your opinion. Why don't you just take this topic (that you can train ANYONE to the point they are able to compete) to a few other boards and make a post or two stating that.
Iron Addict
We can debate on any board, any time.


Plus its more a philosphy than anything. Either you believe it, or you don't. So feel free to take it anywhere you like.
 

iron addict

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OK, I started a thread on Animals board and over at world class. I gotta go get some work done. I'll check in later.

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Dwight Schrute

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Yeah, waht we need is more opinion on the matter :rolleyes:


Nice choice of forums....They certainly won't side with you... :rolleyes:


And be sure to add in your descirption IA, that squats have magical properties and that the body is able to digest 75g of whey in one sitting.
 

iron addict

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We can debate on any board, any time.


Plus its more a philosphy than anything. Either you believe it, or you don't. So feel free to take it anywhere you like.
Since you seem to be concerned with it being partial, please feel free to take it to any board you would like also ;)

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Dwight Schrute

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Since you seem to be concerned with it being partial, please feel free to take it to any board you would like also ;)

Iron Addict
I don't really frequent many other boards. I mean you sponsor this forum, so I don't know why you feel so threatened. THe only other place that I frequently post (well, used to) is bb.com and I don't think any of us wants to go there.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Since you seem to be concerned with it being partial, please feel free to take it to any board you would like also ;)

Iron Addict
And I'm not concerned about this being partial at all. As far as I know this is between you and me and what we differ on. It seems your the one who wants to bring others into the equation. Its up to you...


I could see if Avant wants to get involved. I used to post there and do still read over there quite a bit.
 

iron addict

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Avant would be a fine place. I post there too. In fact this month they ran one of my articles in their "Mind and Muscle" online magazine.

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iron addict

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I just saw the post above, no we don't need to take this to BB.com. Can you imagine? LOL.

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Dwight Schrute

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I cringe.


Well its time for me to go do legs :D

And yes, I'm doing squats, LOL
 

iron addict

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Thats the spirit! They're magic you know--lol.

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jjjd

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ia, the reason why 20 rep squats work is not because squats are "magic", it is as bobo says.

not that i'm jumping on anybody's bandwagon, because it's quite clear i have disagreed with many of your training principles, as my posting history shows.

anways, i never said leg extensions are the same as squats. that's a strawman of the highest order. squats are a compound multijoint exercise. they involve a massive amount of musculature, both as prime movers and as stablilizers. leg extensions are not. leg extensions with heavy loading also place a great amount of shear force on your knees, but i digress

i said MUSCLES don't know the difference between exercises. if you fire X% of your muscle fibers, you fire X% of your muscle fibers. we can talk ROM etc. but it's still not an issue as to a "magic exercise".

in general, compound exercises are and should be the basis of ANY weight trainers program. for a # of reasons. but if you think that one cannot build good leg size (or good size in general) without squats, or without deadlifts, you are just having a weird allegiance to something with no scientific basis.

it comes down to this. can you build upper body size without squatting? of course.

can you build massive legs without squatting? yes.
 

willieman

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Let me know if you guys take this to BB.com...I'm interested in what the experts have to say...wacka wack wacka
 

iron addict

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it comes down to this. can you build upper body size without squatting? of course.

can you build massive legs without squatting? yes.
Many people do quite well without squatting or deadlifting in regards to upper body size. THEY ARE NOT EVERYONE THOUGH! Heavy squats and deadlifts work your body in such a way that there is a metabolic shift that occurs where due to the huge demands these almost full body movements provide, wherby the body gets much better at protein synthesis. As previously stated, if you already grow well, great! They may not be that great an advantage for you.

If you do a lot of gear they may not be as great of an advantage. If you don't grow well, or don't do a lot of gear they do work wonders at making your body grow as a unit. There have been books written about their benefits, and this is one of those topics that has had such widespread support it is taken as a given that they work because of the results that most people see when they commit theirselves to their use.

I KNOW what they have done for myself and COUNTLESS people I have seen throughout the years. Why did Strossen write the book Super Squats, And McRobert Brawn, and McCallum devote more articles to heavy squatting than anything else? When Peary Rader owned IronMan Magazine, he spent 20 years touting their use. I can't even count the articles I have read throughout the years about their benefits, and all this has been prove to me in the gym time after time by real world results. And now I'm supposed to forget about this, and decide all those articles and books and results are a bunch of BS because jjjd says so? You are right that SOME people do well without them. You are wrong about the extreme benefits they provide for so many people.

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size

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My opinion:
Everyone is NOT capable of truly competing.

My feeling on this extends to just about everything. Not everyone has the abilities to comprehend Quantum mechanics or be a professional athlete no matter how hard they train, learn, etc.
 

jjjd

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the articles are NOT a bunch of BS. i have used the supersquats program and it works. but it's not because SQUATS ARE MAGIC. it is because they are a multijoint, compound exercise, the time under tension is tremendous and they even have static loading in between reps (rest-pause).

it's kind of similar to what alexyeev used to gain strength, except he did it with compound exercises like clean to front squat to push press to front squat, etc.

that would work just as well

20 rep squats work because they are a forced system of exceptionally long intense work (2+ minutes for a good rest-pause set), large muscle groups, and of course the caloric overload helps too.

but it's not because squats are magic
 

willieman

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From MY personal expirence, I do not gain better than when I am doing squats, I always do at least one coumpound movement perbody part, but feel the squat is one of the major factors in my overall development.This may not be true for everyone...but it definatley is for me...which is my point...knowing what works on a personal level is what is key to understanding how to reach your goals.

As far as anyone being able to compete, most people can achieve a level at which they can compete, but going the extra mile is the hardest step, and thats where most either fail, or just do not have the desire to compete.There are alot of amatures and pros that have really bad genetics, but have reached that level because of the desire they have.

This is an interesting argument....but it seems to me that everybody is right to a point, and depending a certain circumstance and situations.....at least thats what I think...

Peace
 
Dwight Schrute

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I do have a theory on why people think squats have this ability but I will wait until this pans out before I write that all out...

And, its just a theory.
 

willieman

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I do have a theory on why people think squats have this ability but I will wait until this pans out before I write that all out...

And, its just a theory.
dude, post it up...i personally would love to see it...this is really good stuff and a good part of what the board is about....Anabolicminds right?
 
Dwight Schrute

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I will...I have to tihnk it about some more, but its generally the differnce between the gains, and strictly lean mass gains.
 

willieman

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I will...I have to tihnk it about some more, but its generally the differnce between the gains, and strictly lean mass gains.
I am all over lean mass gains....especially if it means I don't have to squat...
 
Dwight Schrute

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No, you have to squat. Its just a theory on why some peope think they are so good. This actually goes for all compound exercies.
 

iron addict

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jjjd,

You can't possibly beleive that I meant there was something "magic" about squats, using the normal definition of "magic".

REALLY???

Iron Addict
 

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Ok im gonna post here because I loved this discussion and two trainers are going left and right on the squats topic. I believe SQUATS and DEADLIFTS puts the most amount of muscle mass in the overall body when they are used progressively, that means that your training and diet are geared toward getting stronger on both of those lifts. The amount of TEST increase , I'm talking natural users is definitely stronger than doing per se leg extensions or any other amount of isolation movements. They work the entire skeletal frame, they work a lot of synergist muscles and tax the CNS(Central Nervous System) like nothing, involving a greater degree of immune response and alteration of the metabolic pathways inducing more protein syntesis. I don't think we should call those exercises MAGIC, but they are a great staple for the regular trainee and those looking for adding muscle mass.

Same thing goes for the deadlifts, what do you think gets you more traps and overall back development, doing lateral raises for reps or progressively pounding and pounding the deadlift until you go say from a 135lbs deadlift to a 400lbs deadlift in whatever time it takes , who do you think will have more traps and overall back development? the deadlifter who loved training the hardcore way and decided strength in the long term will equal faster muscle returns.

In both of those exercises , nothing can be achieved without proper nutrition. Same goes for gear, if you don't have your nutrition dialed in, no amount of deadlift or squat or gear will help you attain the physique you really want, i think thats all i might elaborate on that later but I think the real truth is , both of those exercises are great for natural trainers.
 

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I'd like to address a few points made in this thread:

Firstly, about the "magic" exercises:

1. Deadlifts. Deadlifts are primarily a lower body movement. Your upper body is merely holding the bar. Why would this make for an incredible back-builder? Does a static bench press build huge pecs/tris? Deadlifts are a great exercise, but more for the lower body musculature rather than the back/traps.

2. Squats. Another great exercise. But why are they being compared to leg extensions? Squats are about hip extension, not knee extension. There are many reasons to squat as opposed to doing leg extensions, but whole-body growth is not one of them. There is 0 evidence supporting this.

Next, correlation does not imply causation.

Iron Addict, I truly respect you, many of your articles got me on the right track when I started out. But I have to disagree on a certain line of thinking. You believe that the majority of trainees overtrain, and would simply grow if they reduced their volume, squatted, deadlifted, had a proper diet, etc. You've had a number of trainees that were rightfully successful, once they started training under your guidance. But let's look at a comparison, "before" and "after" of one of your typical trainees:

Before:

1. I follow the latest musclemag article on training. I do something different every week, but I always skip the leg workouts.

2. My diet is pretty much the same as any normal guy, but I do have some SUPER-ANABOLIC whey protein twice a day!

3. I'm not sure what I lifted last week, but I'm here to get a pump!

After:

1. I am now devoted, working hard, and following a strict routine, week-in week-out.
2. I am following a diet to exacting standards, with a huge caloric/protein surplus.
3. I am determined to add weight to the bar every week.

Now, it would be easy for one (especially the trainee) to exclaim, "Hardgainer training is the key! I was overtraining!" or "Squats caused me to explode in growth over my entire body!" because this makes sense. But the reason why, is not because the man was overtraining, it's because he decided to get serious. He was a bench and biceps frat-boy before, and turned himself into a dedicated lifter. He improved every facet related to training success...of course he'll have great results!
 
supersoldier

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I'd like to address a few points made in this thread:

Firstly, about the "magic" exercises:

1. Deadlifts. Deadlifts are primarily a lower body movement. Your upper body is merely holding the bar. Why would this make for an incredible back-builder? Does a static bench press build huge pecs/tris? Deadlifts are a great exercise, but more for the lower body musculature rather than the back/traps.
From this response, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've never deadlifted in your life. Helluva first post :welcome:
 

bigmark1972

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:icon_lol:
After:

1. I am now devoted, working hard, and following a strict routine, week-in week-out.
2. I am following a diet to exacting standards, with a huge caloric/protein surplus.
3. I am determined to add weight to the bar every week.
4. Deadlifts. Deadlifts are primarily a lower body movement. Your upper body is merely holding the bar. Why would this make for an incredible back-builder?
HAHAHAHAHA this is a good one.
Damn SS ya beat me to it:trout:
 
Dwight Schrute

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From this response, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've never deadlifted in your life. Helluva first post :welcome:
Watch what you limb you go out on, it might just break. Just be careful who you criticize SS, I've seen your diet.

I don't know who he is but this thread is posted on several boards and people were asked to give their opinions by both me and IA. So please relax with the "first" post stuff..


If you disagree with him, prove him wrong.
 

bigmark1972

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If you disagree with him, prove him wrong.
I know this is not aimed at me and I did'nt mean to insult the guy but Bobo, surely you know that dealdlifts hit the back and traps very hard? My entire back and traps are sore for days after a good deadlifting session, for that matter so is most of the rest of my body. I see no need to prove him wrong here, I mean that statement struck me as funny it was so far off.

I think people are being thrown off by the use of the term magic here or something but saying deads do not involve the back is just wrong.
 
MaDmaN

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Get a new partner and watch your quads grow...
 
Dwight Schrute

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This forum was based on expanding thought and using scientific methods to make a case. The format still stands and "opinion" only goes so far....As I might not agree with some of a users post, I usually attempt to prove him wrong with some sort of reference first before just giving my opinion.

Now what may seem common sense to you, might not to others. How much better would your arguement look if you backed up your statement with some credible reference?

So instead of asking whether he ever did deadlifts and mocking him because it is his first post, refute it.

This was his statement:

"Deadlifts. Deadlifts are primarily a lower body movement. Your upper body is merely holding the bar. Why would this make for an incredible back-builder? Does a static bench press build huge pecs/tris? Deadlifts are a great exercise, but more for the lower body musculature rather than the back/traps."

If you can refute it, then do so but giving the opinion that he doesn't know what he is talking about because your back is sore the ext day isn't exactly "conclusive". Many strenth athletes experience DOMS but don't grow much because of the type of training they do and compund movements tend to incorporate ratios that influence strenght rather than growth. That is something to consider...

Lets try to take this discussion further instead of questioning the intellignece of other. And yes, I am guilty as well so I will be the first one to put my foot in my mouth if I screw up :D
 

bigmark1972

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Deadlifts are a great exercise, but more for the lower body musculature rather than the back/traps
I would not argue this point.

Your upper body is merely holding the bar. Why would this make for an incredible back-builder?
It takes an incredible amount of muscle power to "merely" lift up off the floor and hold say 550# for reps. The amount of muscle being stimulated in this exercise is mind boggling if you really think about it.

I see the point he's trying to make here and I can't blame him for that. My experience in the gym tells me that either he is wrong or for some other reason my back gets thicker and my traps bigger when I get into deadlifting.

I am not questioning his intelligence, but rather his experience in particular with the deadlift. I don't know how I could prove this theory, but you could ask Mr. Coleman, he likes to do deads with 800lbs and his back is beyond description. While I also realize this proves nothing, how could I?
 
Dwight Schrute

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Abstracts. There are a million of them. Its how Exercise and Stregth programs assess results. Its those abstroacts that are the basis for the majority of strenght and training coaches.


A few examples:

Biomechanical analysis of the deadlift during the 1999 Special Olympics World Games.

Escamilla RF, Lowry TM, Osbahr DC, Speer KP.

Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory, Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: Improper lifting techniques may increase injury risks and decrease performance. The aim of this study was to compare and contrast biomechanical parameters between sumo and conventional style deadlifts and between high- and low-skilled lifters who participated in the powerlifting event during the 1999 Special Olympics World Games. METHODS: Two synchronized video cameras collected 60 Hz of data from 40 subjects. Parameters were quantified at barbell liftoff (LO), when the barbell passed the knees (KP), and at lift completion. RESULTS: Compared with the conventional group, the sumo group had a 100% greater stance width, 20% smaller hand width, 10% less vertical bar distance, a more vertical trunk at LO, a more horizontal thigh at LO and KP, a less vertical shank at KP, and greater forefoot abduction. The sumo group generated ankle dorsiflexor, knee extensor, and hip extensor moments, whereas the conventional group produced ankle plantar flexor, knee flexor and extensor, and hip extensor moments. Compared with low-skilled lifters, high-skilled lifters had a 40% greater barbell load, 15% greater stance width (sumo group only), greater knee flexion at LO (conventional group only), greater knee extension at KP, a less vertical shank position at LO (sumo group only), 15% less vertical bar distance, less first peak bar velocity between LO and KP (conventional group only), smaller plantar flexor and hip extensor moment arms at LO and KP, and greater knee extensor moment arms at LO. CONCLUSIONS: The sumo deadlift may be more effective in working ankle dorsiflexors and knee extensors, whereas the conventional deadlift may be more effective in working ankle plantar flexors and knee flexors. High-skilled lifters exhibited better lifting mechanics than low-skilled lifters by keeping the bar closer to the body, which may both enhance performance and minimize injury risk.


The effect of training status on the serum creatine kinase response, soreness and muscle function following resistance exercise.

Vincent HK, Vincent KR.

Department of Exercise Science, University of Massachusetts, Amherst 01003, USA.

Untrained individuals develop muscle soreness and increased serum creatine kinase (CK) activity in the blood after strenuous, unaccustomed exercise. An unpublished observation in our laboratory revealed that trained weightlifters also experience considerable soreness after unaccustomed exercise, but may not show a dramatic CK response. This study examined the CK and soreness responses to strenuous exercise in weightlifters (TR, n = 10) and untrained subjects (UTR, n = 10). Trained subjects had a minimum of three years weightlifting experience, and regularly performed squats and leg presses. Untrained subjects had not participated in any regular resistance exercise for the past three years. Following two acclimation sessions, subjects reported to the lab on seven consecutive days and on the tenth day after knee extensor exercise. Weight training sessions occurred on day 1 for the knee extensors (KE) and day 2 for the knee flexors (KF). The weight training consisted of these exercises (sets): squat (5), leg press (3), leg extension and lunge (3) for the KE, double leg curls (6), single leg curls (3), stiff-legged deadlifts (4, TR group only) for the KF at 12 RM for all exercises. To document the stress due to exercise, the loss in strength (isometric peak torque, IPT) was assessed on a Biodex isokinetic dynamometer. Maximal voluntary IPT of the KE at 90 degrees and the KF at 80 degrees decreased 17-30% with no significant differences between groups. Muscle soreness during simulated squat leg curl movement was assessed by a 100 mm visual analog scale (VAS). Average peak KE soreness was 76 mm for TR and 58 mm for UTR, KF soreness was 60 mm for TR and 47 mm for UTR post-exercise. Serum CK levels were significantly different between groups with a peak of 1349 IU for TR and 3272 IU for the UTR (p < 0.01). Although the TR group experienced greater soreness than the UTR, peak serum CK activity was significantly lower, suggesting that trained individuals can develop severe soreness without the same degree of increase in serum CK activity observed in untrained individuals.


A three-dimensional biomechanical analysis of sumo and conventional style deadlifts.

Escamilla RF, Francisco AC, Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Welch CM, Kayes AV, Speer KP, Andrews JR.

Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: Strength athletes often employ the deadlift in their training or rehabilitation regimens. The purpose of this study was to quantify kinematic and kinetic parameters by employing a three-dimensional analysis during sumo and conventional style deadlifts. METHODS: Two 60-Hz video cameras recorded 12 sumo and 12 conventional style lifters during a national powerlifting championship. Parameters were quantified at barbell liftoff (LO), at the instant the barbell passed the knees (KP), and at lift completion. Unpaired t-tests (P < 0.05) were used to compare all parameters. RESULTS: At LO and KP, thigh position was 11-16 degrees more horizontal for the sumo group, whereas the knees and hips extended approximately 12 degrees more for the conventional group. The sumo group had 5-10 degrees greater vertical trunk and thigh positions, employed a wider stance (70 +/- 11 cm vs 32 +/- 8 cm), turned their feet out more (42 +/- 8 vs 14 +/- 6 degrees). and gripped the bar with their hands closer together (47 +/- 4 cm vs 55 +/- 10 cm). Vertical bar distance, mechanical work, and predicted energy expenditure were approximately 25-40% greater in the conventional group. Hip extensor, knee extensor, and ankle dorsiflexor moments were generated for the sumo group, whereas hip extensor, knee extensor, knee flexor, and ankle plantar flexor moments were generated for the conventional group. Ankle and knee moments and moment arms were significantly different between the sumo and conventional groups, whereas hip moments and moments arms did not show any significantly differences. Three-dimensional calculations were more accurate and significantly different than two-dimensional calculations, especially for the sumo deadlift. CONCLUSIONS: Biomechanical differences between sumo and conventional deadlifts result from technique variations between these exercises. Understanding these differences will aid the strength coach or rehabilitation specialist in determining which deadlift style an athlete or patient should employ.



Kinematics and kinetics of the dead lift in adolescent power lifters.

Brown EW, Abani K.

This study documented characteristics of the dead lift of teenage lifters. Films of 10 "skilled" and 11 "unskilled" contestants in a Michigan Teenage Powerlifting Championship provided data for analysis. Equations of motion, force, and moments were developed for a multisegment model of the lifters' movement in the sagittal plane and applied to the film data. Analysis was limited to 1) body segment orientations, 2) vertical bar accelerations, 3) vertical joint reaction forces, 4) segmental angular accelerations, 5) horizontal moment arms of the bar to selected joints, and 6) intersegmental resultant moments. Significant differences (P less than 0.05) in body segment orientation indicated a more upright posture at lift-off in the skilled group. Maximum vertical bar acceleration and angular acceleration of the trunk tended to occur near lift-off in the skilled lifters. The unskilled subjects demonstrated greater variability and magnitude in linear and angular acceleration parameters. In all lifters, maximum vertical force was experienced at the ankle joint. Within each subject, the hip joint experienced the greatest torque because of the relatively large horizontal moment arm of the bar (dominant mass in the system) to this joint. In all subjects, the magnitude of the mass lifted, and not the technique, was the primary determinant in the intersegmental resultant moment acting at the hip and the vertical force experienced at the ankle, knee, and hip joints.
 
Dwight Schrute

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BTW- Those abstracts don't prove anything or even have much relavence. They are just examples from Pubmed when you type in "deadlifts".
 

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I am not questioning his intelligence, but rather his experience in particular with the deadlift. I don't know how I could prove this theory, but you could ask Mr. Coleman, he likes to do deads with 800lbs and his back is beyond description. While I also realize this proves nothing, how could I?
Again, correlation does not imply causation. His back may be beyond description but how do you know it's the deadlifts when he also does rows, chins, machine movements, shrugs etc. etc.? Coupled with incredible amounts of food, gear, and amazing genetics? Think those might contribute in some way? There are a good number of people that can deadlift 800 lbs or close to it and have backs that are NOWHERE NEAR Coleman's. So I think that argument is pretty moot.

Some of you don't seem to understand the point I'm trying to make with the deadlift. Look at someone performing the lift [correctly]. Look at the musculature that actually MOVES the bar. Not what is HOLDING the bar.
 

iron addict

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Debaser,

Gotta agree with those gentlemen above. Sure does sound like you have never pulled a heavy deadlift.

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Dwight Schrute

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These are people that squat and pull heavy deadlifts that aren't that big. This is ALL they do. Nobody said squats and deadlifts are not great exercies for the legs, but the notion that it increases overall size isn't true IMO. If that were the case these people would be MUCH larger because those are the type types of exercises they focus on ALL the time.
 

iron addict

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Yes but you are comparing Pl'ers that in most cases train LOW reps and as you KNOW they are primarily stimulating increased neural recruitment. This is NOT an apples to apples comparison at all.

But you knew that...

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Dwight Schrute

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But the point being its not the exercise, but its the WAY the exercise is done. The ratio and timing used is more important than the actual exercise.

When you imply that he hasn't done a heavy deadlift, then I assume its HEAVY weight with low reps. In that case, growth will not be as greate compared to lighter weight with more reps and more time under tension.
 

iron addict

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Yes,

but again you KNEW that before you posted that--nice try though--lol.

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lifted

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These are people that squat and pull heavy deadlifts that aren't that big. This is ALL they do. Nobody said squats and deadlifts are not great exercies for the legs, but the notion that it increases overall size isn't true IMO. If that were the case these people would be MUCH larger because those are the type types of exercises they focus on ALL the time.
I think the above post settles this debate...training for size and strength can be done with two totally different routines. But that doesn't have anything to do with the actual excercise being used.

Squats and deads are great, but they will not make you grow more in other areas that aren't the prime movers, stabilizers, etc.

I don't understand how this "theory" got started. A lot of people say that since they shock the overall nervous system, increase test levels, etc, that in turn will make overall gains more apparent. Again, I'd like to see some studies showing that deads and squats raise T levels, shcok nervous systems, etc...
 
Dwight Schrute

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Yes,

but again you KNEW that before you posted that--nice try though--lol.

Iron Addict

Which is why I still don't understnad why people say "you will grow more when you do heavy squats and deadlifts" when the primary response to those exercises is not growth, but strength.
 

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IronAddict:

It depends on your definition of heavy. Also, I don't see how its entirely relevant: do deadlifts spontaneously become more of a back exercise once there are XXX lbs on the bar? Sounds like typical "gym logic" to me. Again, once you start doing static bench presses or dips for chest growth, let me know. I also challenge you to find one study confirming any kind of hormone release or "total body effect" of squats, deadlifts, or whatever. I guarantee you won't find one.

You laugh at those who would do flyes for pec growth. Well, last time I checked, the pecs adduct the humerus in both the flyes and the bench press. They serve the same role. Now, I don't do flyes myself, but it sure as hell makes more sense both logically and physiologically than saying "squat for big arms."
 

morfiend

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but it sure as hell makes more sense both logically and physiologically than saying "squat for big arms."
hahahaha... I'm not taking sides with anyone here.. I agree with points on both sides.. but it really irks me when people say stuff like that.. doesn't make ANY sense..
 
Dwight Schrute

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Overall I agree with jjjd on most points. I love squats and think they are a great exercise if performed properly but they are not magic and your upper body will not explode because you add them in your routine.
I'm with you morfiend....
 

DieTrying

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I know that opinions mean nothing here, but as a trainee of IA, I do feel that heavy deads and squats make all the difference in SOME people. I am one of them. Let me also say that I am the first one to always follow a study, and I will always follow scientific results over the "real world". With that being said, I trained for 2-3 years without squats and deads (always with a very clean diet), and now under IA, I add several reps to my workout every time I workout. Does it have to do with squats and deads? Maybe. It doesn't really matter as long as we're all progressing.
 
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