MrBigPR
NutraPlanet Rep
Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics. No matter what your still retarted.
fu**king newbs stop saying no to serms
- Thread starter jay21
- Start date
Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics. No matter what your still retarted.
Mu5tang69
Banned
ur the original homo in this thread starting all this BS and ur a admin. why dont u quit being an "A S S H O L E ".
instead of just me pointing to the right direction, u wanted to ask me a question which u thought i didnt know(a s s h o l e ). its wasnt a answer u wud get from a chemist but i knew the answer.
so why dont u cut this BS and actually back me up from people doing M1T w/o serms. its unhealthy & u'll prolly lose all ur gains like the "not bigs" who posted here.
Mu5tang69
Banned
yes that true... lol im not denighing it
deadikated
Member
jesus you're pathetic.
Mu5tang69
Banned
the stupid guy is right! accept it lol
B5150
Legend
Do you feel good about yourself now?
You have been warned about name calling. Right?
EasyEJL
Never enough
Or the president of the US bowling in the white house?
Mu5tang69
Banned
ok no more name calling. do u feel good about urself startin a useless geek war trying to demean me with ur impressive chemical knowledge? lol
Mu5tang69
Banned
why the fuk is he bowling in the white house? can u give me a chemical reason why he likes to do such things? if u dont i just wont understand lol
isnt retarded just a better answer
B5150
Legend
Because he can!
EasyEJL
Never enough
Or for Change™
Mu5tang69
Banned
lol at you getting ridiculously defensive.
yeah you said it "wakes up your balls." But what the ****? That statement isn't worth ****. Any intelligent person on here who doesn't know what it is for is not going to simply be content with "it wakes up ur balls." They should want to know what they're taking and why. That why should extend a little bit beyond "it wakes ur balls up." lol
You can say that about anything. If you can't explain why, then obviously you're bullshitting. Again, if muscletech comes out with capped dogshit telling you it aids recovery and helps you build bigger muscles, you gonna down that stuff too? Or are you going to your homework to find out HOW it actually does what they say it does?
You copy/pasted after you got called out. Basically means you had no idea how it did what it did before someone inspired you to go searching for it.
Geek? Why? Because I like knowing what I'm putting in my body and why? Because I like to know the answer when someone asks me a question I'm a geek? Okay...that's cool.
fixed. Ur simple. And that's not a compliment.
i skimmed threw ur post & it wasnt really worth givin a real reply. that wasnt a compliment either lol
its kinda like a dog chasing after his own tail lol
B5150
Legend
Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Mu5tang69
Banned
no no buddy play with ur rules talk like chemist spread the knowledge lol
SWOLL
Member
did you really need to say that talking down to me?? It was a simple question asked in an educated way, i prefer next time you should try not to act as if your better than someone trying to gain knowledge because at the end of the day your on a bodybuilding forum. I am sure you have no chemical engineering degree, nor are you a scientist. Just because you have some sort of moderating pull on this website gives you no right to talk down to good members attempting to learn, if anything your doing exactly the opposite of what you should be. I'm simply demanding a little more respect than you are giving me.
Mu5tang69
Banned
actually u shud be demean for such a answer
Mu5tang69
Banned
warbird01
Well-known member
Some ancient humans also survived off nuts and berries but the **** if im gonna eat like that!
Mu5tang69
Banned
r the only people that u talk to on the internet?
Mu5tang69
Banned
Mu5tang69
Banned
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Iron Lungz
Banned
Wow - you spell really well.
There again...
I feel good about myself - It's called self-confidence.
It comes with the SERM.You are on a roll tonight!
I'm sorry, but you remind me of ari52... he was special, too. :rofl:
Stallion83
Member
Good lord almighty. I swear i think this thread has become more than just the topic. I understand and all give respect for those who are knowledgable in pcts and serms and I find that excellent to educate those who don't know much. But this thread has became crazy and seems everyone is just either making fun of ones knowledge or just trying to see hwos better than who. We all need to get along and im saying this because many people on here has helped me with my depression and its not fun. All im saying is we are here to learn and there are people that lead hence that was what the site was for for people to gather and share ideas and help one another out. Im not going to contribute anymore to this thread but liek I said we all need to get along.
Iron Lungz
Banned
Hey, what happened to mooch?
Iron Lungz
Banned
STFU.
Stallion83
Member
Come here and make me hot shot.
Mu5tang69
Banned
Wow - you spell really well.
There again...
I feel good about myself - It's called self-confidence.
You are on a roll tonight!
I'm sorry, but you remind me of ari52... he was special, too. :rofl:
this post was kinda stupid too i was expecting more from a chemist, u sound like the other dude chasing after his tail like a dog lol
Iron Lungz
Banned
Are you serious?
I'll tell you what, if you're ever in Ft. Benning, Ga, please let me know... I'll take you to the Wolves Den, and we can talk about it.
Binary-badass.
Stallion83
Member
hahahaha sounds good to me. You need them wolves hahahaha crackhead
Mu5tang69
Banned
mikeyb123
Member
I kind of agree with SWOLL and Mu5tang on this one! (prepares to get negged) Although Mu5stang has also let himself down a bit with his name calling and other immature comments.
I do think people where harsh on him, Mu5tang does know enough for him to be giving advice he just need to explain things better rather than in lemans terms!
And anyone that claims to not understand what was being said with the term "wakes up your balls" is just playing dumb for the sake of this argument. It may not have been a scientific explanation but at the end of the day it is the desired effect in lemans terms.
I personally think its irresponsible to take or tell anyone to take any PH without access to a SERM. Do you need a SERM 100% of the time? Probably not, but i know if i start to get the feeling of gyno i want a fkin SERM in my cupboard! I really don't fancy spending $7000 for surgery.
So you ran a PH without PCT or OTC and had no side effects at all...... well done...... unfortunately many people do get side effects and you can not base what will happen to someone else on your body. We are all different!
SERMS should be recommended and then it’s up to the individual to do the homework and work out the risk.
I do think people where harsh on him, Mu5tang does know enough for him to be giving advice he just need to explain things better rather than in lemans terms!
And anyone that claims to not understand what was being said with the term "wakes up your balls" is just playing dumb for the sake of this argument. It may not have been a scientific explanation but at the end of the day it is the desired effect in lemans terms.
I personally think its irresponsible to take or tell anyone to take any PH without access to a SERM. Do you need a SERM 100% of the time? Probably not, but i know if i start to get the feeling of gyno i want a fkin SERM in my cupboard! I really don't fancy spending $7000 for surgery.
So you ran a PH without PCT or OTC and had no side effects at all...... well done...... unfortunately many people do get side effects and you can not base what will happen to someone else on your body. We are all different!
SERMS should be recommended and then it’s up to the individual to do the homework and work out the risk.
Iron Lungz
Banned
Yep, I sure do man.
Mu5tang69
Banned
this one....
B5150
Legend
Talk down to you? Act as if i am better than you? Trying to gain knowledge? At the end of the day you are on a bodybuilding forum? Moderating pull?
Look, my position as a moderator/administrator does not make me a chemist, a training expert, a nutrition expert or a swell guy. I function as a board moderator, keeping order and enforcing board rules.
I simply stated that ANY hormone that you ingest is going to inhibit your HPTA. I don't care who has marketed what, exogenous hormones will inhibit you. When a company comes out with a "legal" steroid and a legal "PC ancillary" I ask myself....hhhmmmmmm?
So my point was...educate yourself.
Before there were legal steroids there were manufactures who devised ways to loophole the law with legal alternatives. Now they could MAKE MONEY selling STEROIDS legally.
Before there were legal ancillaries the legal STEROID manufactures devised ways to market alternative PCT ancillaries that were LEGAL. Now they could MAKE MONEY selling legal ancillaries.
My point is, understand your endocrine system and stop relying on marketing. They are here to make money.
deadikated
Member
strong dismissal.
SWOLL
Member
thank you! thats the answer i would have liked to see in the first place!
Im here to learn and discuss a common interest, if i say something stupid by all means anyone can talk to me however they'd like believe me i just thought you came off a bit harsh. no harm no foul though!!
mikeyb123
Member
Yes but do you think this is a good idea? No its not....
And to suggest running a PH without PCT is just retarded.
People have fallen from planes and survived, who needs a parachute?
Thats as ridiculous as your comment.
AE14
Board Sponsor
at the end of the day this is a personal choice. I am not a huge believer in serms, as there are many instances where they can cause more issues than needed. However, I understand why many might want to use them. However, prior to even contemplating a serm, one should make sure to cover all bases in their pct, and do some research on their own.
BTW, why does it seem that this board is getting infested by kids who are coming from bb.com? Annoying really
BTW, why does it seem that this board is getting infested by kids who are coming from bb.com? Annoying really
repmks
Member
no its not the analogy sucks.
steroids are not as simple as jumping off a plane. the two are complete different.
repmks
Member
i think people need to just try it on their own . try a serm try no serm find out what works.
repmks
Member
repmks
Member
slightly supressed lol not gonne happen..
jbryand101b
Banned
STUPID PEOPLES GUIDE TO POST CYCLE THERAPY
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a PCT plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board (mabye not A.M.)
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the post cycle therapy Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the post cycle therapy hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy: (edited by me)
Animal Stak2 (universal nutrition)
Reversitol (I-force nutrition)
PCT Assist (C.E.L)
T-bol (I forget the comp. name)
Creaitne monohydrate
Article Source: ( cant post a link, "not enough post" wtf is that, so google "stupid peoples guide to post cycle therapy for original) Also, for a more Scientific approach, look up "Anthony Roberts Post Cycle Therapy" good stuff.
Also this doesn't go into prescription A.I.'s. but this is the basics, for more indepth, google, there is so much to know about pct, make time to read. lol
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a PCT plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board (mabye not A.M.)
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the post cycle therapy Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the post cycle therapy hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy: (edited by me)
Animal Stak2 (universal nutrition)
Reversitol (I-force nutrition)
PCT Assist (C.E.L)
T-bol (I forget the comp. name)
Creaitne monohydrate
Article Source: ( cant post a link, "not enough post" wtf is that, so google "stupid peoples guide to post cycle therapy for original) Also, for a more Scientific approach, look up "Anthony Roberts Post Cycle Therapy" good stuff.
Also this doesn't go into prescription A.I.'s. but this is the basics, for more indepth, google, there is so much to know about pct, make time to read. lol
mikeyb123
Member
You think jumping out of a plane is simple? Oh dear.
Here is a better one from the post above....
"Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things"
mikeyb123
Member
And what do they do if they get Gyno with your little experiment?