EvoMuse Presents: DCP

I've seen dsade say that each of his products attack different mechanisms so they stack very well, together.

But I'm really curious if there's a cap on just how much fat our bodies will burn/eliminate in a single week, no matter how great and synergistic the products are.

Conventional "wisdom" is a healthy diet should get you about 2 lbs weight loss per week. Maybe 3 if you're "obese".

Brite gets you a bit more loss.
Epitome gets you a bit more loss.
Ammo gets you a bit more loss.
DCP gets you a bit more loss.

Is there really no practical limit before the body says it's just not going to burn any more fat?

Or, is it really possible to stack these products and start losing 5+ pounds a week?
 
Kaprice said:
I've seen dsade say that each of his products attack different mechanisms so they stack very well, together.

But I'm really curious if there's a cap on just how much fat our bodies will burn/eliminate in a single week, no matter how great and synergistic the products are.

Conventional "wisdom" is a healthy diet should get you about 2 lbs weight loss per week. Maybe 3 if you're "obese".

Brite gets you a bit more loss.
Epitome gets you a bit more loss.
Ammo gets you a bit more loss.
DCP gets you a bit more loss.

Is there really no practical limit before the body says it's just not going to burn any more fat?

Or, is it really possible to stack these products and start losing 5+ pounds a week?
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I wouldn't look at it from a scale perspective as much as I would the mirror.

Especially as you get leaner, you'll realize just how much a couple pounds of fat really is (the visuals they used in science classes and stuff really help here). So your scale may not move much at all, but you can really see visual differences in terms of more veins, crisper striations, etc. That's been my experience, at least, when I get closer to that lower bf%.
 
There isn't much research done on the upper limit of fat loss while dieting. The best we have are a few, basically starvation experiments.

And the majority of fat loss research is done on an obese population and not entirely applicable to AM members. Internal validity != external validity and all that.
 
I think the advantage with these is that we do not have to eat as much of a deficit as we normally would to lose fat at a certain rate.
 
MidwestBeast said:
I wouldn't look at it from a scale perspective as much as I would the mirror.

Especially as you get leaner, you'll realize just how much a couple pounds of fat really is (the visuals they used in science classes and stuff really help here). So your scale may not move much at all, but you can really see visual differences in terms of more veins, crisper striations, etc. That's been my experience, at least, when I get closer to that lower bf%.
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Yeah, I get the difference between scale and body improvement. But, the concept of my question is still in play.

Is there a practical limit where adding more of EvoMuse products stops burning even more fat (or building even more muscle)? Or, can we really stack the fat burning benefits beyond conventional wisdom, with each product actually doing more than before?
 
kdubson14 said:
And the majority of fat loss research is done on an obese population and not entirely applicable to AM members. Internal validity != external validity and all that.
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Hah! Well, it technically applies to ME! I'm probably at 35 - 40% BF! :) -- and REALLY anxious to get rid of that!
 
ma70 said:
I think the advantage with these is that we do not have to eat as much of a deficit as we normally would to lose fat at a certain rate.
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So, you're saying stacking all these products my not actually burn more fat at our same deficit, but should burn the same fat with less of a deficit?

IOW, CONCEPTUALLY... if I'm on 3 EM products and eating 2000 calories caused me to lose 3 pounds a week, you're saying adding a fourth product might not cause me to lose 4 pounds a week, but might allow me to keep losing 3 pounds a week while eating 2500 calories?

Again, ignore the numbers. They're just there to illustrate a concept.

Is that what you're saying? And, dsade, what do you say?
 
Kaprice said:
So, you're saying stacking all these products my not actually burn more fat at our same deficit, but should burn the same fat with less of a deficit?

IOW, CONCEPTUALLY... if I'm on 3 EM products and eating 2000 calories caused me to lose 3 pounds a week, you're saying adding a fourth product might not cause me to lose 4 pounds a week, but might allow me to keep losing 3 pounds a week while eating 2500 calories?

Again, ignore the numbers. They're just there to illustrate a concept.

Is that what you're saying? And, dsade, what do you say?
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I'd agree with this, it'll also help with muscle retention and mood as keeping the calories up prevents any extra catabolism.
 
Simply put, I think most supplements shine the best during a recomp scenario. If you're cutting, you're gonna lose fat. If you're bulking, you're gonna gain muscle. The idea of these supplements from my POV is to "optimize" your body to do both at the same time. That's how I treat them these days, or I start doing stacks when I'm on a deadline of some sort (beach event, etc)
 
Kaprice said:
So, you're saying stacking all these products my not actually burn more fat at our same deficit, but should burn the same fat with less of a deficit?

IOW, CONCEPTUALLY... if I'm on 3 EM products and eating 2000 calories caused me to lose 3 pounds a week, you're saying adding a fourth product might not cause me to lose 4 pounds a week, but might allow me to keep losing 3 pounds a week while eating 2500 calories?

Again, ignore the numbers. They're just there to illustrate a concept.

Is that what you're saying? And, dsade, what do you say?
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Yes, that is what I feel.
 
Kaprice said:
Hah! Well, it technically applies to ME! I'm probably at 35 - 40% BF! :) -- and REALLY anxious to get rid of that!
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Don't take this the wrong way, but at a higher level of body fat, I believe you probably don't need as much protein as most do which is where you might be able to cut calories. I'd think Epitome, BRITE, DCP, and Ammo/AbAb would be best for you.
 
ma70 said:
Don't take this the wrong way, but at a higher level of body fat, I believe you probably don't need as much protein as most do which is where you might be able to cut calories. I'd think Epitome, BRITE, DCP, and Ammo/AbAb would be best for you.
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I agree with that. I'm just not sure how that applies to what we were talking about.

BTW, I'm currently on Epitome and Brite (and ThermoGum). Started last week. I just received Defuse and will be ordering DCP. Matt had also recommended Ammo so I'll probably do that with the DCP order.

All I was asking is whether or not taking all these products at once has more fat burning/muscle building benefits than fewer of them.
 
Kaprice said:
I agree with that. I'm just not sure how that applies to what we were talking about.

BTW, I'm currently on Epitome and Brite (and ThermoGum). Started last week. I just received Defuse and will be ordering DCP. Matt had also recommended Ammo so I'll probably do that with the DCP order.

All I was asking is whether or not taking all these products at once has more fat burning/muscle building benefits than fewer of them.
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Oh, I was just giving you random friendly advice. But also, pointing out the "higher BF%" bit means you are Epitome's target audience.

And yes, they should theoretically help you. They all attack different dysfunctions/pathways to help you burn fat if you're in a good caloric deficit.
 
Kaprice said:
I agree with that. I'm just not sure how that applies to what we were talking about.

BTW, I'm currently on Epitome and Brite (and ThermoGum). Started last week. I just received Defuse and will be ordering DCP. Matt had also recommended Ammo so I'll probably do that with the DCP order.

All I was asking is whether or not taking all these products at once has more fat burning/muscle building benefits than fewer of them.
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I 100% feel there is more benefit to using all of them together.

That said, it's not necessary to make good progress. There are times I take more and less, but I also wouldn't lose sleep over paying my rent and not taking an extra supp lol.

I guess my point is just that I don't feel it's overkill in the sense that it won't help; but don't feel like we are saying you have to do it by any means.
 
MidwestBeast said:
I guess my point is just that I don't feel it's overkill in the sense that it won't help; but don't feel like we are saying you have to do it by any means.
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To be clear... I REALLY hate how I look right now. I'm highly motivated to get down to a reasonable weight. I'm never going to be a body builder. I'm never going to try to get into single digits BF. I will probably never try for a six pack.

But, I'd like to get down to a 38" waist. I'd like to wear a swimsuit and not have lumps of fat rolling down my waist band. And, I'd like to have decent enough muscles to be functionally strong.

I want people to look at me and be surprised I'm 55.

I know no one is telling me I have to use all the products. And for now, I can afford a couple months of whatever will help.

But, I'm looking for real, noticeable help. I don't want to spend $50 for a 1% improvement in my efforts. So, that's where I've been trying to go with my questioning.
 
Kaprice said:
To be clear... I REALLY hate how I look right now. I'm highly motivated to get down to a reasonable weight. I'm never going to be a body builder. I'm never going to try to get into single digits BF. I will probably never try for a six pack.

But, I'd like to get down to a 38" waist. I'd like to wear a swimsuit and not have lumps of fat rolling down my waist band. And, I'd like to have decent enough muscles to be functionally strong.

I want people to look at me and be surprised I'm 55.

I know no one is telling me I have to use all the products. And for now, I can afford a couple months of whatever will help.

But, I'm looking for real, noticeable help. I don't want to spend $50 for a 1% improvement in my efforts. So, that's where I've been trying to go with my questioning.
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EvoMuse DCP prevented me from gaining fat on the sloppy bulk. If it can do that (and this was before this new updated formula), it can surely help you lose fat if you control your diet. BRITE in itself has an acute effect, but the "everlasting" effect has increased my maintenance calories by 300-400. This was after a 12 week run, and an 8 week run (not back to back either). I have never been at your BF %, but some of those who have say Epitome has greatly helped them. If you can afford it and want to kill fat as fast possible, I would go with Absolutely Abliderated, DCP, BRITE, and Epitome with a diet that is low in carbs (mostly because I can assume you are also not carb tolerant)

I'd also throw in some Forskolin at 100mg as well.
 
Kaprice said:
...But, I'm looking for real, noticeable help. I don't want to spend $50 for a 1% improvement in my efforts. So, that's where I've been trying to go with my questioning.
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Spend $50 more on quality, healthy foods for a bit until you drop some significant bf%. Then add in a product or two while continuing your well-planned meal plan.

There's my 2¢ towards your $50!
 
Piston Honda said:
Spend $50 more on quality, healthy foods for a bit until you drop some significant bf%. Then add in a product or two while continuing your well-planned meal plan.
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Yeah, I'm watching my eating choices, too. I'm not expecting to supps to fix bad eating. But, I'm hoping the combination will produce much better results than either, alone.
 
Kaprice said:
I agree with that. I'm just not sure how that applies to what we were talking about.

BTW, I'm currently on Epitome and Brite (and ThermoGum). Started last week. I just received Defuse and will be ordering DCP. Matt had also recommended Ammo so I'll probably do that with the DCP order.

All I was asking is whether or not taking all these products at once has more fat burning/muscle building benefits than fewer of them.
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Your question deserves an in depth treatment, but I took a bad spill at the warehouse yesterday and just threw myself out really bad.

Give me a few for the pain pills to take effect and I'll go into it.

Short answer, yes there is an upper limit but it's far higher than you would think.


For now see the fat loss guide (if someone can link it I'd be grateful) then I'll come back when I'm not screaming quite so loud. :/
 
ma70 said:
I would go with Absolutely Abliderated,
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I was thinking that would be more helpful after I'd hit my first plateau. No?

If rubbing the recommended "quarter-size" amount on my belly every day, how long should one bottle last?
 
Kaprice said:
I was thinking that would be more helpful after I'd hit my first plateau. No?

If rubbing the recommended "quarter-size" amount on my belly every day, how long should one bottle last?
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Well, you mentioned you wanted a blitz approach haha. I think any/all supplements should be used to get ahead of plateaus
 
First, thanks so much for being willing to give me an in-depth answer. I know how busy you are.

Secondly, DUDE! you took another spill at the warehouse??? I haven't kept a tally, but my aging memory seems to suggest that't the third or fourth time! Are you working the warehouse on roller blades? Hoverboard? :knockedout:

We really need you to take care of yourself! A lot of people, here, seem to be highly dependent on your ability to continue offering, perfecting, and creating new products!

dsade said:
Your question deserves an in depth treatment, but I took a bad spill at the warehouse yesterday and just threw myself out really bad.

Give me a few for the pain pills to take effect and I'll go into it.

Short answer, yes there is an upper limit but it's far higher than you would think.


For now see the fat loss guide (if someone can link it I'd be grateful) then I'll come back when I'm not screaming quite so loud. :/
Click to expand...
 
Piston Honda said:
Spend $50 more on quality, healthy foods for a bit until you drop some significant bf%. Then add in a product or two while continuing your well-planned meal plan.

There's my 2¢ towards your $50!
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I totally agree with this. At 40% BF you shouldn't have a problem losing fat at a decent rate for quite a while on a proper diet alone. Unless you have the extra $, spend it when you're lower and possibly hit a plateau. The ability to lose fat on a consistent diet will help teach you how to maintain later on as well, which is probably harder for most people to do than dieting.
 
I get a little overexcited at times, and I hit a spot where I had spilled a few drops of melted Java Lather.

Judging by the X-rays from the last time I did something similar, it looks like I bent one of the titanium rods but I need to wait to get back up to Cleveland before they decide what they're going to be able to do.

Been rolling through the pain, because I don't ever want to stop doing what I do.

At least it's the weekend, and I can focus on the NOxidant reformulation.
 
Rand0m said:
I totally agree with this. At 40% BF you shouldn't have a problem losing fat at a decent rate for quite a while on a proper diet alone. Unless you have the extra $, spend it when you're lower and possibly hit a plateau. The ability to lose fat on a consistent diet will help teach you how to maintain later on as well, which is probably harder for most people to do than dieting.
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Yeah, that's the kind of things I've been hearing over the years. When you're obese, it doesn't take much to lose weight and if you do too much with calorie restriction and/or supplements, you leave the body with no where to go after that initial weight loss.

But, it does appear that EvoMuse products get around that and I'm kind of excited to test the limits.
 
dsade said:
it looks like I bent one of the titanium rods
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You have titanium rods??? What are you trying to do, be Wolverine?

Also, DANG! Didn't think titanium was that easy to bend!
 
Kaprice said:
Yeah, that's the kind of things I've been hearing over the years. When you're obese, it doesn't take much to lose weight and if you do too much with calorie restriction and/or supplements, you leave the body with no where to go after that initial weight loss.

But, it does appear that EvoMuse products get around that and I'm kind of excited to test the limits.
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That applies to any level of bodyfat. Be realistic with timelines, plan ahead and leave yourself room to milk the fat loss. You'll get far with the resources here on AM.
 
I was taught to get the most with the least. Sometimes throwing everything in at once is not optimal. It often works better to wait until you plateau to throw in something else. Once i took this approach everything was easier and more effective.
 
Kaprice said:
Yeah, that's the kind of things I've been hearing over the years. When you're obese, it doesn't take much to lose weight and if you do too much with calorie restriction and/or supplements, you leave the body with no where to go after that initial weight loss.

But, it does appear that EvoMuse products get around that and I'm kind of excited to test the limits.
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You can always piece things in slowly as well. The possibilities are pretty much endless. A lot of it comes down to budget obviously. With your BF% good clean food, consistent exercise (even doing little things like walking extra), and a supplement or two may go far. Spreading them out or trying to combine a bunch for a bigger effect is really up to you. I'd probably spread them out since you have a long ways to go. Aim for steady progress. Whenever I have lots to lose and I go nuts at it my results aren't nearly as good as when I attack it over time.

Make the little habit adjustments and believe in the power of incremental change.
 
I believe Matt said it will be about 3 weeks.
 
Looks like one of the new DCP ingredients, Panax Notoginseng, has positive effects on BMP-7.

Invalid Link Removed

Panax notoginseng saponins protect kidney from diabetes by up-regulating silent information regulator 1 and activating antioxidant proteins in rats.
Du YG1, Wang LP1, Qian JW2, Zhang KN1, Chai KF3.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To explore the mechanism of the protective effects of Panax notoginseng saponins (PNS) on kidney in diabetic rats.
METHODS:
Diabetic rat model was obtained by intravenous injection of alloxan, and the rats were divided into model, PNS-100 mg/(kg day) and PNS-200 mg/(kg day) groups, 10 each. Another 10 rats injected with saline were served as control. Periodic acid-Schiff staining and immunological histological chemistry were used to observe histomorphology and tissue expression of bone morphogenetic protein-7 (BMP-7). Silent information regulator 1 (SIRT1) was silenced in rat mesangial cells by RNA interference. The mRNA expressions of SIRT-1, monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1), transforming growth factor β1 (TGF-β1) and plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1) were analyzed by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. The protein expressions of SIRT1 and the acetylation of nuclear factor κB (NF-κB) P65 were determined by western blotting. The concentration of MCP-1, TGF-β1 and malondialdehyde (MDA) in culture supernatant were detected by enzyme-linked immuno sorbent assay. The activity of superoxide dismutase (SOD) was detected by the classical method of nitrogen and blue four.
RESULTS:
In diabetic model rats, PNS could not only reduce blood glucose and lipid (P<0.01), but also increase protein level of BMP-7 and inhibit PAI-1 expression for suppressing fifi brosis of the kidney. In rat mesangial cells, PNS could up-regulate the expression of SIRT1 (P<0.01) and in turn suppress the transcription of TGF-β1 (P<0.05) and MCP-1 (P<0.05). PNS could also reverse the increased acetylation of NF-κB p65 by high glucose. In addition, redox regulation factor MDA was down-regulated (P<0.05) and SOD was up-regulated (P<0.01), which were both induced by SIRT1 up-regulation.
CONCLUSIONS:
PNS could protect kidney from diabetes with the possible mechanism of up-regulating SIRT1, therefore inhibiting inflfl ammation through decreasing the induction of inflfl ammatory cytokines and TGF-β1, as well as activating antioxidant proteins.
 
unitas27 said:
Looks like one of the new DCP ingredients, Panax Notoginseng, has positive effects on BMP-7.

Invalid Link Removed

Panax notoginseng saponins protect kidney from diabetes by up-regulating silent information regulator 1 and activating antioxidant proteins in rats.
Du YG1, Wang LP1, Qian JW2, Zhang KN1, Chai KF3.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To explore the mechanism of the protective effects of Panax notoginseng saponins (PNS) on kidney in diabetic rats.
METHODS:
Diabetic rat model was obtained by intravenous injection of alloxan, and the rats were divided into model, PNS-100 mg/(kg day) and PNS-200 mg/(kg day) groups, 10 each. Another 10 rats injected with saline were served as control. Periodic acid-Schiff staining and immunological histological chemistry were used to observe histomorphology and tissue expression of bone morphogenetic protein-7 (BMP-7). Silent information regulator 1 (SIRT1) was silenced in rat mesangial cells by RNA interference. The mRNA expressions of SIRT-1, monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1), transforming growth factor β1 (TGF-β1) and plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 (PAI-1) were analyzed by reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction. The protein expressions of SIRT1 and the acetylation of nuclear factor κB (NF-κB) P65 were determined by western blotting. The concentration of MCP-1, TGF-β1 and malondialdehyde (MDA) in culture supernatant were detected by enzyme-linked immuno sorbent assay. The activity of superoxide dismutase (SOD) was detected by the classical method of nitrogen and blue four.
RESULTS:
In diabetic model rats, PNS could not only reduce blood glucose and lipid (P<0.01), but also increase protein level of BMP-7 and inhibit PAI-1 expression for suppressing fifi brosis of the kidney. In rat mesangial cells, PNS could up-regulate the expression of SIRT1 (P<0.01) and in turn suppress the transcription of TGF-β1 (P<0.05) and MCP-1 (P<0.05). PNS could also reverse the increased acetylation of NF-κB p65 by high glucose. In addition, redox regulation factor MDA was down-regulated (P<0.05) and SOD was up-regulated (P<0.01), which were both induced by SIRT1 up-regulation.
CONCLUSIONS:
PNS could protect kidney from diabetes with the possible mechanism of up-regulating SIRT1, therefore inhibiting inflfl ammation through decreasing the induction of inflfl ammatory cytokines and TGF-β1, as well as activating antioxidant proteins.
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Cool! Should stack well with BMP then
 
Excited for DCP. Not gonna lie, I know on a bodybuilding forum it sounds stupid, but it's great to eat like crap on DCP and not get fat. Haha. I can only assume the new formula will allow it so much more.

What I love about Matt's formulas is that a lot of them really help with quality of life. Defuse (for mega cheats), DCP (for more relaxed dieting), Nerve Restore (I've never needed it, but I've seen the stories of how this helped people lift again), BRITE (fat loss, and eventually long term changes that make it so you can eat more)
 
I'm unfamiliar with DCP's ingredients, but any chance of enhancing accumulation of intracellular DAGs and ceramides via inhibition of DGAT and increased ER stress in those with dysfunctional adipocytes due to metabolic syndrome, diabetes, etc?
 
Bugger, I already have the metabolism of an elite athlete, Im actually looking for something that will make it that of a couch potato.

Subd anyway.
 
kdubson14 said:
I'm unfamiliar with DCP's ingredients, but any chance of enhancing accumulation of intracellular DAGs and ceramides via inhibition of DGAT and increased ER stress in those with dysfunctional adipocytes due to metabolic syndrome, diabetes, etc?
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Rose Elagatannins are one of the ingredients in DCP that inhibit DGAT. This PubMed study hopefully answers part of your question: dsade can chime in with more information.

Identification of diacylglycerol acyltransferase inhibitors from Rosa centifolia petals.
Kondo H1, Hashizume K, Shibuya Y, Hase T, Murase T.
Author information
1Biological Science Laboratories, Kao Corporation, 2606 Akabane, Ichikai-machi, Haga-gun, Tochigi, 321-3497, Japan. [email protected]
Abstract
Diacylglycerol acyltransferase (DGAT) catalyzes the final step of triacylglycerol (TAG) synthesis, and is considered as a potential target to control hypertriglyceridemia or other metabolic disorders. In this study, we found that the extract of rose petals suppressed TAG synthesis in cultured cells, and that the extract showed DGAT inhibitory action in a dose-dependent manner. Fractionation of the rose extract revealed that the DGAT inhibitory substances in the extract were ellagitannins; among them rugosin B, and D, and eusupinin A inhibited DGAT activity by 96, 82, and 84% respectively, at 10 μM. These substances did not inhibit the activities of other hepatic microsomal enzymes, glucose-6-phosphatase and HMG-CoA reductase, or pancreatic lipase, suggesting that ellagitannins inhibit DGAT preferentially. In an oral fat load test using mice, postprandial plasma TAG increase was suppressed by rose extract; TAG levels 2 h after the fat load were significantly lower in mice administered a fat emulsion containing rose extract than in control mice (446.3 ± 33.1 vs 345.3 ± 25.0 mg/dL, control vs rose extract group; P < 0.05). These results suggest that rose ellagitannins or rose extract could be beneficial in controlling lipid metabolism and used to improve metabolic disorders.
 
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