DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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Not sure if everyone is aware but there is a new craze being released soon by DS, whether this may be a new formula or a new flavour i do not know but definitely something to look out for.

Ahhh madchemist have you shat myself!! One does not want to end up with a Parkinsons-like picture.

On a side note, anything PA says should be given it's due acknowledgement... i trust his knowledge on undetectable drugs...
 
They said that they aren't changing the formula. It looks like a new flavor.

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breezy11 said:
They said that they aren't changing the formula. It looks like a new flavor.
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thanks, hadn't seen that thread. not surprising that they're not changing the formula and it's about time they offered an alternative flavour!

hate this waiting game though, not the waiting game on the release of the new craze flavour... but the waiting game on the action if any from the lawsuit! my patience is running thin. don't they know they wont like me when i'm angry. HULK MAD! arrrgghhhh ********
 
Whacked said:
This is ALRI Venom and AX SlimXtreme all over again.

Fall in love with product - it gets pulled for various reasons.

I'm thankful for the people out there testing products and making dang sure Im not putting toxic, questionable, OR dangerous garbage in my system. That said, it sucks that the best supps always seesm to be the ones that are tainted or contain a suspect ingredient. Go figure. Can't win. LOL
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Don't kid yourself, Whacked. They're not testing the products becuase they're worried about toxins and safety issues. It's almost certainly envious competing supplement companies that are doing the testing. They're testing the products because they see a supplement superior to their own that is cutting into their sales and they will do anything in their power to see it removed. I don't think it's rocket science. It just really, really sucks that they can't find something novel themselves that actually works, formulate a superior supplement and increase revenue/ decrease lost revenue that way. What they are doing just ruins it for the rest us. It ruins it for us consumers that, once every blue moon, are lucky enough to find a supplement (especially in this day and age) that is effective, novel and actually lives up to the hype. With so much garbage ou there nowdays, it's nice to finally find something that works. Maybe the RAT(S) who brought this to the attention of aforementioned law firm (newsflash: a bunch of lawyers didn't just stumble onto this!) should spend less time worrying about destroying DS's product and spend more time researching and developing a superior product themselves.
 
kevinlpii said:
Don't kid yourself, Whacked. They're not testing the products becuase they're worried about toxins and safety issues. It's almost certainly envious competing supplement companies that are doing the testing. They're testing the products because they see a supplement superior to their own that is cutting into their sales and they will do anything in their power to see it removed. I don't think it's rocket science. It just really, really sucks that they can't find something novel themselves that actually works, formulate a superior supplement and increase revenue/ decrease lost revenue that way. What they are doing just ruins it for the rest us. It ruins it for us consumers that, once every blue moon, are lucky enough to find a supplement (especially in this day and age) that is effective, novel and actually lives up to the hype. With so much garbage ou there nowdays, it's nice to finally find something that works. Maybe the RAT(S) who brought this to the attention of aforementioned law firm (newsflash: a bunch of lawyers didn't just stumble onto this!) should spend less time worrying about destroying DS's product and spend more time researching and developing a superior product themselves.
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lol that's a hilarious post.. you're view on the world makes me smile :)
 
ottonis said:
Don't you guys think that it is the responsibility of a company to TEST the raw materials for hidden drugs, especially after getting such unusual and unheard effects from a herbal extract? Let's assume a scenario where the raw material supplier indeed spiked the herbal extract with an amphetamine analogon, which in turn was/is the culprit for those sensational stim effects of said herbal extract. Shouldn't ANY company that is halfway carrying out their business conscientiously and in a responsible manner ring the alarm bells and test the hell out of that extract before forwarding it to end users /consumers?
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that is an interesting question. i would guess that if there is a reasonable expectation that a product may be contaminated or altered by "spiking" then the company should do testing to make sure it is not. But what is reasonable? Its a grey area
 
kevinlpii said:
Don't kid yourself, Whacked. They're not testing the products becuase they're worried about toxins and safety issues. It's almost certainly envious competing supplement companies that are doing the testing. They're testing the products because they see a supplement superior to their own that is cutting into their sales and they will do anything in their power to see it removed. I don't think it's rocket science. It just really, really sucks that they can't find something novel themselves that actually works, formulate a superior supplement and increase revenue/ decrease lost revenue that way. What they are doing just ruins it for the rest us. It ruins it for us consumers that, once every blue moon, are lucky enough to find a supplement (especially in this day and age) that is effective, novel and actually lives up to the hype. With so much garbage ou there nowdays, it's nice to finally find something that works. Maybe the RAT(S) who brought this to the attention of aforementioned law firm (newsflash: a bunch of lawyers didn't just stumble onto this!) should spend less time worrying about destroying DS's product and spend more time researching and developing a superior product themselves.
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this is a joke right?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
this is a joke right?
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No PA, it's not a joke at all. If you read some of my earlier threads I speak in nothing but glowing, respectful terms of your contribution to this industry. I think you're the guru of all guru's when it comes to our little niche and every product I've tried of yours' has not only lived up to the hype, but far succeded it. I check your blog constantly and your name is the first I Google when I have any questions regarding this industry.
But my point is the supplement industry is a business... and it operates like a business. Business and competition is cuthroat, plain and simple. I am a small business owner and know this just as well if not better than anyone else. My post came off as being directed toward you and that's not how it was meant to be. I believe what you've done throughout the years is for positive purposes and I base that statement on your track record. Every product you've come out with has been amazing and it seems your constantly immersed in R&D. With that said, I think my previous post applies to several companies and it's a shame, because Craze is amazing and I'd hate to see it pulled. Not swingin' from you nuts mind you.... I really do respect what you've done in this industry. But there are a lot of "competitors" out there that would love nothing more than to see DS go down in flames over this ordeal.
 
kevinlpii said:
No PA, it's not a joke at all. If you read some of my earlier threads I speak in nothing but glowing, respectful terms of your contribution to this industry. I think you're the guru of all guru's when it comes to our little niche and every product I've tried of yours' has not only lived up to the hype, but far succeded it. I check your blog constantly and your name is the first I Google when I have any questions regarding this industry.
But my point is the supplement industry is a business... and it operates like a business. Business and competition is cuthroat, plain and simple. I am a small business owner and know this just as well if not better than anyone else. My post came off as being directed toward you and that's not how it was meant to be. I believe what you've done throughout the years is for positive purposes and I base that statement on your track record. Every product you've come out with has been amazing and it seems your constantly immersed in R&D. With that said, I think my previous post applies to several companies and it's a shame, because Craze is amazing and I'd hate to see it pulled. Not swingin' from you nuts mind you.... I really do respect what you've done in this industry. But there are a lot of "competitors" out there that would love nothing more than to see DS go down in flames over this ordeal.
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First of all I appreciate your flattering comments and your support. Second of all I see where your coming from more now. Your first post must have been under the influence of craze or something because you sounded like u were ready to pack a suicide vest on and die for the stuff

Of course there are companies out there that probably want to bring down craze and destroy the company because its a best seller now. Its always been that way. Its always been that way in every industry. When money is involved people get pretty damn mean

I have a unique perspective on this controversy. This whole thing parallels very closely what I went through years ago when I introduced AMP. Although it didnt enjoy the commercial success that craze does (due in large part to pathetic marketing and sales efforts) it did introduce what came to be an enormously succesful and effective diet and energy ingredient - 1,3-DMAA

U may or may not recall but when i first came out with AMP i did not reveal the exact chemical nature of 1,3-dmaa. I said it was from geranium oil. I caught alot of flak for that and was accused of spiking my stuff with amphetamines and you name it. I didnt freak out, I knew thats part of the game in this industry. Eventually someone figured out the identity of 1,3dmaa and i caught even more BS. Even in the media. I didnt bitch though and I discussed the ingredient as openly as possible after that point

DS is now going through this same process. Hell, Cahill is on record of being a 1,3-dmaa critic himself back in the day. I never thought the guy wanted to bring me down or anything. I just figured thats to be expected. So now DS and their supporters have to accept the inevitable too. They dont have the right to cry foul anymore than any other company in their position.

This process will carry itself out and if they are on the up and up with their product they will prevail. If they are not then they will suffer. And thats what it all comes down to.
 
CobbledPath said:
lol that's a hilarious post.. you're view on the world makes me smile :)
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My view on the supplement industry (and the world in general) is very real and, unfortunately in many instances, shockingly true. Everybody has an agenda, Cobbled. I don't know what yours is or if you even have one. My agenda? I don't have one either, at least not in this instance (unless you count wanting an amazingly effective product to stay around for years to come as an agenda). I see a lot of hypocrisy going down and it makes me sick. Envious competitors are making the jobs easier and doing the work for the FDA and DEA. What happened to the good old days when pro-hormoes were legal and everybody had everybody else's back to the bitter end? Yes, there was a lot of bickering and piss and vinegar between competing companies but it seemed to me that they were all on the same page. As a consumer and someone with a fair amount of knowledge in this field I believe we have backtracked several times over as an industry and just in the last five years.
 
kevinlpii said:
My view on the supplement industry (and the world in general) is very real and, unfortunately in many instances, shockingly true. Everybody has an agenda, Cobbled. I don't know what yours is or if you even have one. My agenda? I don't have one either, at least not in this instance (unless you count wanting an amazingly effective product to stay around for years to come as an agenda). I see a lot of hypocrisy going down and it makes me sick. Envious competitors are making the jobs easier and doing the work for the FDA and DEA. What happened to the good old days when pro-hormoes were legal and everybody had everybody else's back to the bitter end? Yes, there was a lot of bickering and piss and vinegar between competing companies but it seemed to me that they were all on the same page. As a consumer and someone with a fair amount of knowledge in this field I believe we have backtracked several times over as an industry and just in the last five years.
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prohormones were usually clearly labelled (as to the active compounds) and that enabled people at least the potential to make a decision on risk versus benefit. The debate here is whether or not disclosure with the constituents of Craze is sufficient enough for it to be possible for people to understand what they are ingesting

You appear to be happy that the stuff simply makes you feel good and dont want to concern yourself with why it does, or whether there could be a flip side to the good times. That is fine. Not everyone thinks that way though
 
Patrick Arnold said:
First of all I appreciate your flattering comments and your support. Second of all I see where your coming from more now. Your first post must have been under the influence of craze or something because you sounded like u were ready to pack a suicide vest on and die for the stuff

Of course there are companies out there that probably want to bring down craze and destroy the company because its a best seller now. Its always been that way. Its always been that way in every industry. When money is involved people get pretty damn mean

I have a unique perspective on this controversy. This whole thing parallels very closely what I went through years ago when I introduced AMP. Although it didnt enjoy the commercial success that craze does (due in large part to pathetic marketing and sales efforts) it did introduce what came to be an enormously succesful and effective diet and energy ingredient - 1,3-DMAA

U may or may not recall but when i first came out with AMP i did not reveal the exact chemical nature of 1,3-dmaa. I said it was from geranium oil. I caught alot of flak for that and was accused of spiking my stuff with amphetamines and you name it. I didnt freak out, I knew thats part of the game in this industry. Eventually someone figured out the identity of 1,3dmaa and i caught even more BS. Even in the media. I didnt bitch though and I discussed the ingredient as openly as possible after that point

DS is now going through this same process. Hell, Cahill is on record of being a 1,3-dmaa critic himself back in the day. I never thought the guy wanted to bring me down or anything. I just figured thats to be expected. So now DS and their supporters have to accept the inevitable too. They dont have the right to cry foul anymore than any other company in their position.

This process will carry itself out and if they are on the up and up with their product they will prevail. If they are not then they will suffer. And thats what it all comes down to.
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I remember when I ordered my first 3 bottles of Ergolean AMP (I think it was version 2). The stuff was amazing. I especially enjoyed the low caffeine content and the addition of Fursultiamine (which I think should be a staple in most stims'). I hope this isn't breaking board rules by asking this but is there a good, domestic source for Fursultiamine? That stuff did wonders for my heart. I know you probably can't reveal the exact amount you used in AMP, but a pointer in the right direction would be much obliged if you're allowed to do so (and if I'm allowed to even be asking this question).
 
kevinlpii said:
I remember when I ordered my first 3 bottles of Ergolean AMP (I think it was version 2). The stuff was amazing. I especially enjoyed the low caffeine content and the addition of Fursultiamine (which I think should be a staple in most stims'). I hope this isn't breaking board rules by asking this but is there a good, domestic source for Fursultiamine? That stuff did wonders for my heart. I know you probably can't reveal the exact amount you used in AMP, but a pointer in the right direction would be much obliged if you're allowed to do so (and if I'm allowed to even be asking this question).
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amp2 first had 100mg per serving. That is a clinically very effective dose as described in the literature but the horrible smell of the burps was just too much. So i think we sliced it down to 50mg or something.

i think we still have giant nutrition fursultiamine caps left. send me a pm
 
Patrick Arnold said:
prohormones were usually clearly labelled (as to the active compounds) and that enabled people at least the potential to make a decision on risk versus benefit. The debate here is whether or not disclosure with the constituents of Craze is sufficient enough for it to be possible for people to understand what they are ingesting

You appear to be happy that the stuff simply makes you feel good and dont want to concern yourself with why it does, or whether there could be a flip side to the good times. That is fine. Not everyone thinks that way though
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After reading my posts it does come off that that is all I care about (I think I was jacked up on Craze in a few of 'em :) ). But that's not the case. I think a person should weigh risk/reward in just about everything they do (or ingest). I've found the product to be very helpful in a lot of ways with few to little side effects (a raging headache from time-to-time being the main side, whcih I feel confident attributing to the N-Methyl-Tyramine.... That stuff sucks, IMHO). As a 31 year old man whose father, three uncles and two grandfathers died before they were 55 years old due to cardiac issues I in fact do take the risks seriously and monitor my health closely... Probably closer than most. But as someone who has been diagnosed with ADHD for the past 18 years, I think whatever is in Craze is superior to everything I've been doctor prescribed over the years (with Dexadrine being a close second). It does indeed have a drug-like "feel" and if it is found out to indeed be an amphetamine analoug of some sort I would reccomend somebody trying to patent it, because it is miraculous in that sense. But back to your point PA, I do indeed take the sides and "flip side" of the coin very serious, but I also know something that "works" and seems relatively safe when I ingest it. Maybe I am overlooking the potential nuerotoxicity aspect of it, but as far as cardiovascualr negatives I haven't experienced any and I've been using the product since January.
On another note.... Are you still looking for any "guineua pigs" to test raw N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
amp2 first had 100mg per serving. That is a clinically very effective dose as described in the literature but the horrible smell of the burps was just too much. So i think we sliced it down to 50mg or something.

i think we still have giant nutrition fursultiamine caps left. send me a pm
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Will do. Thanks.
 
kevinlpii said:
On another note.... Are you still looking for any "guineua pigs" to test raw N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine?
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some guys did try it out and there was mouth numbness and one felt pretty high from it. The other did not think they felt much

I told them to double the dose and try again. Cuz my testing seems to suggest there is alot of this in the product

waiting to hear back from them
 
Patrick Arnold said:
some guys did try it out and there was mouth numbness and one felt pretty high from it. The other did not think they felt much

I told them to double the dose and try again. Cuz my testing seems to suggest there is alot of this in the product

waiting to hear back from them
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Are you at liberty to disclose the doseage they used?
 
kevinlpii said:
Are you at liberty to disclose the doseage they used?
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i would like to but i think they wouldnt like that. they have financial interest in another company and i have no idea if they have intentions in developing the ingredient for themselves in the future. If they do, then they wouldnt want the details of their little dose finding experiment to be made public
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i would like to but i think they wouldnt like that. they have financial interest in another company and i have no idea if they have intentions in developing the ingredient for themselves in the future. If they do, then they wouldnt want the details of their little dose finding experiment to be made public
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Understandable. I've the raw ingredient for sale in bulk and was thinking about giving it a whirl myself and seeing if it replicates any of the effects of Craze. I'll just start off with a low doseage and work my way up if necessary. :)
 
Patrick Arnold said:
some guys did try it out and there was mouth numbness and one felt pretty high from it. The other did not think they felt much

I told them to double the dose and try again. Cuz my testing seems to suggest there is alot of this in the product

waiting to hear back from them
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:eek: You told them to double the dosage and now you havent heard back from them??????....great:p
 
kevinlpii said:
But my point is the supplement industry is a business... and it operates like a business. Business and competition is cuthroat, plain and simple. I am a small business owner and know this just as well if not better than anyone else. My post came off as being directed toward you and that's not how it was meant to be. I believe what you've done throughout the years is for positive purposes and I base that statement on your track record. Every product you've come out with has been amazing and it seems your constantly immersed in R&D. With that said, I think my previous post applies to several companies and it's a shame, because Craze is amazing and I'd hate to see it pulled. Not swingin' from you nuts mind you.... I really do respect what you've done in this industry. But there are a lot of "competitors" out there that would love nothing more than to see DS go down in flames over this ordeal.
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If they are truly not using DSHEA-compliant ingredients (no idea if there's any updates recently, haven't followed the thread in a while), then DS isn't really performing innovative R&D. If you're allowed to use completely synthetic substances, they anyone can add any sort of a multitude of stimulants to their supplements, and it'd probably work great for a PWO drink. There are plenty of them with a PEA-backbone.

You hit right on that it's a business. And if they're doing something sketchy, would you not expect them to be called out by other ppl in the supplement industry?
 
smt1 said:
If they are truly not using DSHEA-compliant ingredients (no idea if there's any updates recently, haven't followed the thread in a while), then DS isn't really performing innovative R&D.?
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people that are not in the industry seem to not understand (or maybe just not appreciated) this at all. they care only that they like a product, that it got on the market somehow, and they want to maintain access to it. and anyone that ruins that is an a-hole.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
people that are not in the industry seem to not understand (or maybe just not appreciated) this at all. they care only that they like a product, that it got on the market somehow, and they want to maintain access to it. and anyone that ruins that is an a-hole.
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I have no idea how you agree with that post at all. Being DSHEA does not require something actually be produced from a ****ing plant or whatever. Also why would a consumer give a fawk about DSHEA? That's like saying I really care where every ingredient in my fruit loops came from. Well I don't care because they taste amazing and their parrot mascot is funny.

Doesn't anyone actually read the DSHEA guidelines anymore? They are not that hard to understand (although every supplement company will claim they are). And completely available to the public.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I have no idea how you agree with that post at all. Being DSHEA does not require something actually be produced from a ****ing plant or whatever. Also why would a consumer give a fawk about DSHEA? That's like saying I really care where every ingredient in my fruit loops came from. Well I don't care because they taste amazing and their parrot mascot is funny.

Doesn't anyone actually read the DSHEA guidelines anymore? They are not that hard to understand (although every supplement company will claim they are). And completely available to the public.
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i wasnt thinkiing about natural or synthetic but simply legal or not legal

i agree that synthetic does not necessarily mean illegal when it comes to supps.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I have no idea how you agree with that post at all. Being DSHEA does not require something actually be produced from a ****ing plant or whatever. Also why would a consumer give a fawk about DSHEA? That's like saying I really care where every ingredient in my fruit loops came from. Well I don't care because they taste amazing and their parrot mascot is funny.
.
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your fruit loops are made by companies that have to abide by pretty strict FDA and USDA standards. The same is not true with supplements
 
Patrick Arnold said:
your fruit loops are made by companies that have to abide by pretty strict FDA and USDA standards. The same is not true with supplements
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Don't fawk with my fruit loops.

That wasn't my point though. The average consumer doesn't know or probably care about the laws surrounding the production of something they ingest. The average consumer cares more about satisfaction (whether it be the awesome taste of fruit loops or an excellent stimulant high).
 
madchemist said:
If the PEA analogue can potentiate MAO (many do), or decrease intraneuronal catecholamine production, permanent neurotoxicity may be realized - especially if used chronically.

This is why PEA analogues are supposed to be thoroughly tested before being released to the market.

N-Benzyl-2-phenylethylamine has no such testing.
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This post is really telling and alarming, especially after the side effects I began to experience while on Craze. I did not even realize the involuntary movements or how whacked out I became. This is why we, as consumers, must demand DHSEA compliance as these substances can potentially permanently alter brain chemistry or worse.

With untested substances such as this PEA chain, we are perhaps safer taking Ritalin, amphetamine salts or even cocaine as we know what the long term effects of those are.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
Don't fawk with my fruit loops.

That wasn't my point though. The average consumer doesn't know or probably care about the laws surrounding the production of something they ingest. The average consumer cares more about satisfaction (whether it be the awesome taste of fruit loops or an excellent stimulant high).
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that was my point and you stole it from me
 
Royd The Noyd said:
Don't fawk with my fruit loops.

That wasn't my point though. The average consumer doesn't know or probably care about the laws surrounding the production of something they ingest. The average consumer cares more about satisfaction (whether it be the awesome taste of fruit loops or an excellent stimulant high).
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The average consumer doesn't care because their fruit loops don't give them salmonella or some other ridiculous adverse health events BECAUSE of those laws. This is how it works...people only notice the laws when bad **** happens.
 
as someone that used too thoroughly enjoy some less than legal stims I can say now I really wanna try craze lol.
 
apparently this is being discussed on bb.com

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I will be sending my analysis data to neuron and then hopefully we can get the analysis data from cahill and we can compare
 
I usually minimise my input on threads like this because to some outsiders it looks like company A is attacking company B and I don't want to make it look like I am being disingenuous and for that image to reflect on the company I represent other than my personal opinion.

madchemist said:
Depends on the degree of neurotoxicity and the neuron-specific method of reducing intraneuronal catecholamines. If it depleted intraneuronal dopamine (mostly via tyrosine hydroxylase inhibition), one could end up with a Parkinsons-like picture.
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A lot of "it has no long term testing" can apply in the supplement industry so when I first read madchemist's post I glossed over it and didn't take it seriously i.e. does DAA cause excitotoxicity long term, has any testing been done, will it ever get done over a long period of time, who knows?

When I saw the above thread it caused me to take note.

Disclaimer: I took Craze, I enjoyed it. It is very distinctive but I stopped taking after my first tub because I had that instinctive feeling that something wasn't quite right with it as well as it was losing it's potency somewhat. I took 2 scoops throughout once I worked up to it over 3 servings. I suffered no noticeable side effects in terms of involuntary movements.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I doubt it will happen. There is zero motivation for cahill to do that other than to appease people who never buy his products anyways.
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u prolly right.

i was pretty shocked to hear him so adamantly deny the stuff is in his product when not only do i clearly see it in his product but the amount in there appears to be quite hefty.

hopefully there will be some people that know how to interpret the chromatograms on there for the masses who are not chemists. but even if you arent a chemist you can still see when a fingerprint matches up practically perfectly
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I doubt it will happen. There is zero motivation for cahill to do that other than to appease people who never buy his products anyways.
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OTOH if he is right and I am wrong then him posting his analytical findings would totally shoot down my credibility and raise his to a new level
 
Just read through that online reality show known as bb.com, and Cahill has a point. People are asking him to post results that disprove what some of his competitors are claiming to have found, when the competitors themselves aren't being held to the same standard. Carl Lenore also states that he's seen the lab report, and that this whole thing is much to do about nothing.
 
Sorry for beating a dead horse, Cahill has zilch credibility in my book. What was the deal with the mislabeled diet pills. Didn't a girl die and wasn't jail time metted out? I get not everyone gets toxic effects. I know many people who took a ton of X back in the 80s with no long term ill effects, yet some people did suffer consequences who took much less.

I personally loved Craze as a PWO. Made me strong and he'll of a lot of stamina. Yet, people around me noticed some weird effects. Glad they said something and a week or so after stopping, I feel better and clearer. My workouts suffer right now a bit though.
 
This is my first PWO supplement, and I already ordered a tub of Craze due to rave reviews. This thread is making me very, very worried. But more knowledge, more power.
 
southpaw23 said:
Just read through that online reality show known as bb.com, and Cahill has a point. People are asking him to post results that disprove what some of his competitors are claiming to have found, when the competitors themselves aren't being held to the same standard. Carl Lenore also states that he's seen the lab report, and that this whole thing is much to do about nothing.
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carl lenore is a chemist?
 
Royd The Noyd said:
What? People are getting salmonella from supplements?
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No. I'm just speaking about adverse health events generally. Imagine the people using PH back when every mom and pop shop sold them and getting some of the very negative sides that can be involved -- they probably suddenly got very interested in the laws regulating what they purchased. Those folks will probably forever look skeptically on this industry. Just like if you got sick from food you purchased, you'd want to know more about the laws that are supposed to prevent you from getting sick.


BTW, someone in this thread said something inaccurate about Matt Cahill's past and might want to either figure out what really happened or delete that post. People make mistakes and can be held accountable but what was written makes it seem like a very different situation than what it was.
 
D3Baseball said:
No. I'm just speaking about adverse health events generally. Imagine the people using PH back when every mom and pop shop sold them and getting some of the very negative sides that can be involved -- they probably suddenly got very interested in the laws regulating what they purchased. Those folks will probably forever look skeptically on this industry. Just like if you got sick from food you purchased, you'd want to know more about the laws that are supposed to prevent you from getting sick.


BTW, someone in this thread said something inaccurate about Matt Cahill's past and might want to either figure out what really happened or delete that post. People make mistakes and can be held accountable but what was written makes it seem like a very different situation than what it was.
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Can you point to that post?

The filings are all there for you to see publicly. I don't remember misinformation said (Though I didn't read each post). And I was around way back in the day.
 
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