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DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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Patrick Arnold said:
the presence of n-benzyl-2-pea was confirmed. not only that but this product had the same impurity that was in the standard from sigma aldrich

n-benzyl-2-pea appears to be in the product in very substantial amounts, and as far as i can tell is not listed on the label

now dont shoot the messenger guys. You know this is what i do
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I love ya for all the testing you do (especially with Taurus 7KE Spray) but after working in a law firm for a year I really hope that your sample, testing methods and chain of custody are well documented when making potentially libelous statements about a competitor's product...

Without you, i'd still be spraying 7KE on myself thinking it was actually 7-keto :(.
 
Geoforce said:
Stuff like this makes me glad my job doesn't piss test...though I work at a school so what kind of sense does that make? :) Still, what do we really know about most of what we put in our body anyways? It isn't as if we can label test everything ourselves. Personally I'm glad we have people like PA willing to do these kinds of things. Someone can question motives all they want, but I'm glad SOMEONE is doing it.
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the motive argument is so lame.

i am a competitor, i test competitors product. its common bizness practice in all sorts of industries. somehow when its done in the supp industry though its considered poor sportsmanship and jealousy. lol
 
jobless said:
hey patrick thanks a lot for all the knowlegeable input its great to learn a bit about this as I know basically nothing but I'm really interested now of course.

this "n-benzyl-2-pea" what is it exactly for someone like myself that has no clue? effects? side effects? harmful/harmless?

thanks in advance.
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i have no idea what the effects are - positive or negative - when one ingests this ingredient

so although i have shed some light on this issue, i really havent done anything to answer anyones real concerns
 
Daycrawler said:
I love ya for all the testing you do (especially with Taurus 7KE Spray) but after working in a law firm for a year I really hope that your sample, testing methods and chain of custody are well documented when making potentially libelous statements about a competitor's product...

Without you, i'd still be spraying 7KE on myself thinking it was actually 7-keto :(.
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well there are these other guys out there going after DS so i assume what i found will soon be confirmed and made known publically (or at least to the courts) by them. In that case i cannot see any charges of libel being possible

i am quite confident of my results
 
Patrick Arnold said:
the motive argument is so lame.

i am a competitor, i test competitors product. its common bizness practice in all sorts of industries. somehow when its done in the supp industry though its considered poor sportsmanship and jealousy. lol
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Agreed. I'm sure many more people test the products, if I was in the business I know I would. It isn't as if phone producers don't examine the contents of *****s phones.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
the motive argument is so lame.

i am a competitor, i test competitors product. its common bizness practice in all sorts of industries. somehow when its done in the supp industry though its considered poor sportsmanship and jealousy. lol
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Agreed. I'm sure many more people test the products, if I was in the business I know I would. It isn't as if phone producers don't examine the contents of competitors phones.
 
update, I've talked to the testing facility and got them to explain the rare but potential failure of the test cups and the common false negatives associated with "supplements" and have got the company to soften its negativity on the subject. so for now it looks like I'm guilty unless proven innocent. basically meaning if the lab reports back negative they will honer a retest inlace of the first test and hopefully regain my job and get to blame it on a bad cup. however if the report comes back that theres anything remotely close its going to be a battle. So please anyone with any new info please post and try to explain in plain english as much as posable as I'm really not educated in this subject. thanks again to everyone for your help.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
well there are these other guys out there going after DS so i assume what i found will soon be confirmed and made known publically (or at least to the courts) by them. In that case i cannot see any charges of libel being possible

i am quite confident of my results
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Hey Patrick
so if I got it right, n-benzyl-2-pea is in Craze (?) and is not listed in the ingredients?
Would this be the issue? I mean, let's say DS listed it in the label, would everything be ok then?
Or the ingredient is banned/dangerous?

And the reason for something like this would be? Somehow try to keep the formula secret?
Mine is just curiosity :) and thank you in advance for replying


 
AutoKal47 said:
Hey Patrick
so if I got it right, n-benzyl-2-pea is in Craze (?) and is not listed in the ingredients?
Would this be the issue? I mean, let's say DS listed it in the label, would everything be ok then?
Or the ingredient is banned/dangerous?

And the reason for something like this would be? Somehow try to keep the formula secret?
Mine is just curiosity :) and thank you in advance for replying
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I dont believe it is DSHEA compliant so it wouldnt matter if it was listed or not
 
AutoKal47 said:
Hey Patrick
so if I got it right, n-benzyl-2-pea is in Craze (?) and is not listed in the ingredients?
Would this be the issue? I mean, let's say DS listed it in the label, would everything be ok then?
Or the ingredient is banned/dangerous?

And the reason for something like this would be? Somehow try to keep the formula secret?
Mine is just curiosity :) and thank you in advance for replying
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I dont believe it is DSHEA compliant so it wouldnt matter if it was listed or not
 
jobless said:
update, I've talked to the testing facility and got them to explain the rare but potential failure of the test cups and the common false negatives associated with "supplements" and have got the company to soften its negativity on the subject. so for now it looks like I'm guilty unless proven innocent. basically meaning if the lab reports back negative they will honer a retest inlace of the first test and hopefully regain my job and get to blame it on a bad cup. however if the report comes back that theres anything remotely close its going to be a battle. So please anyone with any new info please post and try to explain in plain english as much as posable as I'm really not educated in this subject. thanks again to everyone for your help.
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I wish you luck on your second test. do you have details on how they are going to analyze it?
 
AutoKal47 said:
Hey Patrick
so if I got it right, n-benzyl-2-pea is in Craze (?) and is not listed in the ingredients?
Would this be the issue? I mean, let's say DS listed it in the label, would everything be ok then?
Or the ingredient is banned/dangerous?

And the reason for something like this would be? Somehow try to keep the formula secret?
Mine is just curiosity :) and thank you in advance for replying
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well I dont see it on the label, unless one of those dendro names represents the stuff

this ingredient certainly is not a controlled substance as i was able to easily purchase a standard for it. I am not entirely sure of its legal status as a supplement. I also dont know anything about its pharmacological activity, if it has any
 
mw1 said:
I dont believe it is DSHEA compliant so it wouldnt matter if it was listed or not
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it likely is not

however there are a million non-dshea ingredients being sold in fat loss products openly and without consequence. Just read an ingredient label on one of those vpx products
 
jobless said:
update, I've talked to the testing facility and got them to explain the rare but potential failure of the test cups and the common false negatives associated with "supplements" and have got the company to soften its negativity on the subject. so for now it looks like I'm guilty unless proven innocent. basically meaning if the lab reports back negative they will honer a retest inlace of the first test and hopefully regain my job and get to blame it on a bad cup. however if the report comes back that theres anything remotely close its going to be a battle. So please anyone with any new info please post and try to explain in plain english as much as posable as I'm really not educated in this subject. thanks again to everyone for your help.
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You should take craze right before your second test just to make sure that's what made you pop. Can't ever be too sure.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I wish you luck on your second test. do you have details on how they are going to analyze it?
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Thanks, it was sent away to a lab not sure where and I won't have the luxury of speaking with the technition unless he finds something. I hope he dosent because I want to have a job and I kinda wanna use the other 3/4 of a tub of craze I have ( havent been really motivated to hit the gym this week) but I would really like to talk to the tech after all this so hopefully he calls me even if I clear .
 
demolition said:
You should take craze right before your second test just to make sure that's what made you pop. Can't ever be too sure.
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This actually made me laugh haha !

Funny thing is obviously I want to retest and pass but I would love too do a third test after with a good solid two scoop workout Inbetween I think it would be very beneficial / educating to see if it popped again or I just got a bad cup , very interested !!!
 
Oh god here we go. When you can't offer a product as good or as effective as CRAZE, guess that means it's time to get it off the market. :/
 
D3Baseball said:
If only I knew what all of this meant....
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The usual suspects that test things in order to get them off the market. They all share the common history of doing these things and have been for years. Coop dropped the initials of one of the players in earlier post. Keep in mind all the player(s) involved ALL SHARE SHADY PASTS...ALL OF THEM. So judge accordingly.
 
southpaw23 said:
The usual suspects that test things in order to get them off the market. They all have history of doing these things for years. Coop dropped the initials of one of the players, who has a history of doing this stuff. Keep in mind all the player(s) involved ALL SHARE SHADY PASTS...ALL OF THEM.
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Like has been said, there's nothing wrong with testing if you find that someone has been dishonest.

But what I don't know is what's up with this compound
 
D3Baseball said:
Like has been said, there's nothing wrong with testing if you find that someone has been dishonest.

But what I don't know is what's up with this compound
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Honesty and integrity have NOTHING to do with why it's been tested. And since "honesty" is being looked at as a key attribute of the testers, why not take a look at their honesty as it relates to their involvement in the industry over the years. If we're to judge, then judge them all.
 
southpaw23 said:
The usual suspects that test things in order to get them off the market. They all share the common history of doing these things and have been for years. Coop dropped the initials of one of the players in earlier post. Keep in mind all the player(s) involved ALL SHARE SHADY PASTS...ALL OF THEM. So judge accordingly.
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I test things to keep legitimacy in the market. I dont test things to get legitimate products removed from the market.

If Craze is legit then it will stay on the market. If it is not legit than it is not fair that legit products have to compete against it. Why you cannot understand the perspective of a supplement company in this matter I dunno.
 
southpaw23 said:
The usual suspects that test things in order to get them off the market. They all share the common history of doing these things and have been for years. Coop dropped the initials of one of the players in earlier post. Keep in mind all the player(s) involved ALL SHARE SHADY PASTS...ALL OF THEM. So judge accordingly.
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and DS has a very shady past too. so what?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I test things to keep legitimacy in the market. I dont test things to get legitimate products removed from the market.

If Craze is legit then it will stay on the market. If it is not legit than it is not fair that legit products have to compete against it. Why you cannot understand the perspective of a supplement company in this matter I dunno.
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Because the end goal is to get an effective product taken off the market and replaced it with what exactly? So far no company has been innovative enough to making something better, much less comparable to Craze. That's just the plain truth.
 
Southpaw are you a DS rep? Just about every post you post is about Craze. Every post of yours since the second has been about craze and a good majority of those before as well. I don't mind if you are, I like craze. You just seem more than a fan.
 
southpaw23 said:
Because the end goal is get an effective product taken off the market and replace it with what exactly? So far no company has been innovative enough to making something better, much less comparable to Craze. That's just the plain truth.
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The idea is that there are substances out there that can produce all kinds of amazing results. Most of them are controlled because they are dangerous when misused.

Pat and others test so that we know whether people are innovating or just using the substances that law abiding companies can't use.
 
southpaw23 said:
Because the end goal is get an effective product taken off the market and replace it with what exactly? So far no company has been innovative enough to making something better, much less comparable to Craze. That's just the plain truth.
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Trust me southpaw, if i chose to use synthetic ingredients and disregarded listing them on the label I could make a comparable product with one hand tied behind my back
 
D2footballjrc said:
Southpaw are you a DS rep? Just about every post you post is about Craze. Every post of yours since the second has been about craze and a good majority of those before as well. I don't mind if you are, I like craze. You just seem more than a fan.
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Not at all. In fact I buy all my supps. If they're good, I'll say so, and if they aren't I'll do the same. I'm not a rep, nor have I ever been for any company. All I'm saying is don't be naive as to why you "think" this product is being tested. It's being tested because it's been a blockbuster since it came out of the gate, that goes for the effectiveness of the product, in addition to the the most important category...SALES.
 
southpaw23 said:
It's being tested because it's been a blockbuster since it came out of the gate, that goes the effectiveness of the product, as well as in the most important category...SALES.
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I agree that this is a big reason why its being tested. Obviously.

If it works very well competitors are curious as to why it does. If they find that it works well because the product is breaking laws then competitors will want that product removed from the market

somehow you find this to be reprehensible
 
Patrick Arnold said:
I agree that this is a big reason why its being tested. Obviously.

If it works very well competitors are curious as to why it does. If they find that it works well because the product is breaking laws then competitors will want that product removed from the market

somehow you find this to be reprehensible
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I find it questionable at best as to why said individuals can't spend more of their time and resources on making something comparable or better, rather than taking away another option for consumers. MAKE SOMETHING BETTER.
 
southpaw23 said:
I find it questionable at best as to why said individuals can't spend more of their time and resources on making something comparable or better, rather than taking away another option for consumers. MAKE SOMETHING BETTER.
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you see this from a very selfish perspective.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
you see this from a very selfish perspective.
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Which one of us is keen on taking away an option from consumers, and using selfish in the same breathe? Look I'm done, you guys will probably be successful in getting it removed from the market. But for those who haven't tried it just yet, I'm not a rep, trust me when I tell you it's hands down the best PWO that you'll ever invest in.
 
I don't think he'll ever understand. He believes we should take everything companies say for face value -- working and being legal and being safe are not all synonymous. Like Pat said, if there are no rules it's easy to make a good preworkout.
 
southpaw23 said:
Which one of us is keen on taking away an option from consumers, and using selfish in the same breathe?.
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I have no interest in taking away products that are legitimate. I will be damned though if i have to work my ass off trying to make a legitimate product only to see others cheat their way to the top (not saying that is the case here, being theoretical). I will not keep my mouth shut and quietly fail

If you cannot understand that then good luck with your life. You will be a failure in the business world
 
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