Does science support the existence of God?

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There have been so many religions over the years why would anybody think theirs is the 'one' true God. How many of you would have believed in sea monsters a few hundred years ago?

Read: Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior.

One god is the thing that everybody should be able to agree on actually! There is only 1 order. Science is universal, it firmly establishes oneness. Where you perform an experiment here or in Russia, no matter what language you speak, etc.. it is predictably the same outcome. You continue to get religion confused with god, that's your error.
 
One god is the thing that everybody should be able to agree on actually! There is only 1 order. Science is universal, it firmly establishes oneness. Where you perform an experiment here or in Russia, no matter what language you speak, etc.. it is predictably the same outcome. You continue to get religion confused with god, that's your error.

Very nicely put. AMEN!
 
... So if everything is so organized,so precise...would that point to chaotic randomness as a beginning? Not to me. It points to an organizer.A lawmaker. ...

This is really the bottom line that cannot be dismissed. There are laws of order in our universe. Order would be precluded without an order giver! Laws are predicated by a law maker! Is there anyway around this? It's not even about proof, it's about odds (the Uncertainty Principle.) God is just as valid of a logical assumption, as our assumption of our existence itself.
 
This is really the bottom line that cannot be dismissed. There are laws of order in our universe. Order would be precluded without an order giver! Laws are predicated by a law maker! Is there anyway around this? It's not even about proof, it's about odds (the Uncertainty Principle.) God is just as valid of a logical assumption, as our assumption of our existence itself.

Which then brings us full circle AGAIN to nail down a concrete, non-contradictory descriptive of this god - and then point out where and how these characteristics are assumed (without, of course, referring the third (or more) hand "trust me"s like the bible.

Should be an easy one - who or what is god, and please tell us how you came up with each characteristic.

Even if your premise WERE valid (which it isn't), there is ZERO compelling evidence that a creator thus indicated would be anything close to resembling the judeo-christian god.
 
One god is the thing that everybody should be able to agree on actually! There is only 1 order. Science is universal, it firmly establishes oneness. Where you perform an experiment here or in Russia, no matter what language you speak, etc.. it is predictably the same outcome. You continue to get religion confused with god, that's your error.

Actually, given a reality of opposing forces, complementary forces, and unrelated forces - even given a "religious" bent, there is no reason to assume one god, even - unless you really want to, once again, send us down the path of infinite regress.
 
Which then brings us full circle AGAIN to nail down a concrete, non-contradictory descriptive of this god - and then point out where and how these characteristics are assumed (without, of course, referring the third (or more) hand "trust me"s like the bible.

Should be an easy one - who or what is god, and please tell us how you came up with each characteristic.

Even if your premise WERE valid (which it isn't), there is ZERO compelling evidence that a creator thus indicated would be anything close to resembling the judeo-christian god.

The point is valid. You can't have creation without a creator. That would be a formal absurdity. Creation is literally precluded without a creator. So, if the order you observe is deniable, so are you! Nothing is real in that case. Is that really your assertion? However, if you assume/believe that you do exist (the creation), it becomes impossible to deny that God (the creator) exists too.

That's why I'm not pushing Christianity at this point! I don't want to invalidate this truth by muddying the issue with religion. In fact, define 'god' as whatever process or person you like, but there is no escaping the conclusion. God is reality.
 
The point is valid. You can't have creation without a creator. That would be a formal absurdity. Creation is literally precluded without a creator. So, if the order you observe is deniable, so are you! Nothing is real in that case. Is that really your assertion? However, if you assume/believe that you do exist (the creation), it becomes impossible to deny that God (the creator) exists too.

That's why I'm not pushing Christianity at this point! I don't want to invalidate this truth by muddying the issue with religion. In fact, define 'god' as whatever process or person you like, but there is no escaping the conclusion. God is reality.

You invalidate your own claim by placing god (a creation) outside of the creator requirement.

Infinite regress - whatever is complicated requires a creator...god, being VERY complicated, would be no exception.

to remove that requirement also removes that requirement from the universe, but either way you are left with a superfluous and unnecessary concept - god.
 
Actually, given a reality of opposing forces, complementary forces, and unrelated forces - even given a "religious" bent, there is no reason to assume one god, even - unless you really want to, once again, send us down the path of infinite regress.

You're right. Maybe the laws of physics are 'localized' such that they would be different elsewhere in the universe. I have been fair to consider this before and it could be true (but I doubt it.) Scientific law and experimental predictability don't necessarily mean that there should be 1 god governing his creation, but the orderly mechanics we observe at work in nature obviously suggest singularity at the top of that pyramid.
 
You're right. Maybe the laws of physics are 'localized' such that they would be different elsewhere in the universe. I have been fair to consider this before and it could be true (but I doubt it.)

Wouldn't that be the ultimate mindbender?
 
You invalidate your own claim by placing god (a creation) outside of the creator requirement.

Infinite regress - whatever is complicated requires a creator...god, being VERY complicated, would be no exception.

to remove that requirement also removes that requirement from the universe, but either way you are left with a superfluous and unnecessary concept - god.

It seems logical to envision order as relationally nested I agree, but you made just the opposite argument in the post right before this! :) lol

You still can't dismiss god based on that, however, because you're making the assumption of concentric regression, whether infinite or not. It is not valid to apply logic or the laws of existence (space/time) to anything occurring before existence or outside of it. Therefore, there is no imperative for any understanding of what came before time/space and it doesn't preclude the reality of god in the least. That is the realm of metaphysics only.
 
It seems logical to envision order as relationally nested I agree, but you made just the opposite argument in the post right before this! :) lol

You still can't dismiss god based on that, however, because you're making the assumption of concentric regression, whether infinite or not. It is not valid to apply logic or the laws of existence (space/time) to anything occurring before existence or outside of it. Therefore, there is no imperative for any understanding of what came before time/space and it doesn't preclude the reality of god in the least. That is the realm of metaphysics only.

It doesn't preclude, but it also does not require. If you assign something a role outside of requirement, you can name it anything you want - god or nothingness - which then makes it possible for either. Once concept being the simpler, it's shaving time leaving the simpler conclusion of NO god the more likely.
 
Wouldn't that be the ultimate mindbender?

Yeah! I stayed up all night debating this with a friend one time. He stated that if life existed elsewhere in the universe, he felt they should still have the same gross attributes. They would still have feet, hands, a head, etc, even if they looked quite different in size, shape and detail. In my mind I agreed with him, but I argued otherwise just for fun. :p Kinda like you do with me I suspect! :whip: haha
 
BE TRUE TO YOUR WEAKNESS AND HIS STRENGTH WILL BE REVEALED

JESUS IS THE MAN.GLAD WE ARE SAVED DESPITE OUR WICKED WAYS.
 
JESUS IS THE MAN.GLAD WE ARE SAVED DESPITE OUR WICKED WAYS.
Thank you for your excellently formulated argument...it is a fantastic contribution to the thread, and human knowledge in general.

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Not to mention that the bible utterly FAILS to denounce slavery, wholesale slaughter, etc.

The bible is, quite a bit, a morally repugnant book - as is the god described therein.

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The bible dosent condone slavery either, God knows the way of men and the sytem that is set on the earth. Its sorta like the food chain, A boss or caption or General can be looked at as a slave owner. In a kingdom there is all sorts of ranks and people fall in place where they fit. The bible does tell Masters to be kind and fair. Like ive stated befor we are beings that are created to serve, and its no way around it. You can be addicted to a host of things, not just drugs. Wouldnt that make you a slave. The lack of self control makes you a slave. And I dont have to know you personally to know that you have secrets and somthing that controls you. The concept of God being a Father and a loving father tells us that he dosent wont us in bondege. When your a slave to the things of the world that we all know dosent last forever that makes you foolish. Even If Heaven didnt exist it would still make more since to serve your creator to better your chance of eternal life then to live how you wont and just return to the earth or somthing weird like that. Because men wants to become a creator and make his own rules when we have clearly been put in a place where there were laws that existed befor we were even here, means that there was some one who established the law of phsics and all others. God allows people to go aginst the Grain because its a nature that existed befor you or I were here, but he also gave us the ability to choose.
So if everything came down to chance and odds it would make more since to follow the laws of god to have a better chance a eternal life vs nothing after death and loosing all that you have gained while on this earth. Being a slve to your thinking and ways will not allow you to see any diffrent until you have a spiritual awakining.
 
The bible dosent condone slavery either, God knows the way of men and the sytem that is set on the earth. Its sorta like the food chain, A boss or caption or General can be looked at as a slave owner. In a kingdom there is all sorts of ranks and people fall in place where they fit. The bible does tell Masters to be kind and fair. Like ive stated befor we are beings that are created to serve, and its no way around it. You can be addicted to a host of things, not just drugs. Wouldnt that make you a slave. The lack of self control makes you a slave. And I dont have to know you personally to know that you have secrets and somthing that controls you. The concept of God being a Father and a loving father tells us that he dosent wont us in bondege. When your a slave to the things of the world that we all know dosent last forever that makes you foolish. Even If Heaven didnt exist it would still make more since to serve your creator to better your chance of eternal life then to live how you wont and just return to the earth or somthing weird like that. Because men wants to become a creator and make his own rules when we have clearly been put in a place where there were laws that existed befor we were even here, means that there was some one who established the law of phsics and all others. God allows people to go aginst the Grain because its a nature that existed befor you or I were here, but he also gave us the ability to choose.
So if everything came down to chance and odds it would make more since to follow the laws of god to have a better chance a eternal life vs nothing after death and loosing all that you have gained while on this earth. Being a slve to your thinking and ways will not allow you to see any diffrent until you have a spiritual awakining.

wow...talk about an apologetic stretch.

The bible denotes how much silver you have to pay a slave owner for killing his slave.

Are you honestly saying that there is ANY situation where the forced enslavement of another hman is OK?

Well, all wiseone, how about a simple 11th commandement like "thou shalt not enslave or support slavery EVER"?

PErhaps because there is no divine authorship..just a book written by the men o the period who thought slavery was hunky dory.

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The bible dosent condone slavery either, God knows the way of men and the sytem that is set on the earth. Its sorta like the food chain, A boss or caption or General can be looked at as a slave owner. In a kingdom there is all sorts of ranks and people fall in place where they fit. The bible does tell Masters to be kind and fair. Like ive stated befor we are beings that are created to serve, and its no way around it. You can be addicted to a host of things, not just drugs. Wouldnt that make you a slave. The lack of self control makes you a slave. And I dont have to know you personally to know that you have secrets and somthing that controls you. The concept of God being a Father and a loving father tells us that he dosent wont us in bondege. When your a slave to the things of the world that we all know dosent last forever that makes you foolish. Even If Heaven didnt exist it would still make more since to serve your creator to better your chance of eternal life then to live how you wont and just return to the earth or somthing weird like that. Because men wants to become a creator and make his own rules when we have clearly been put in a place where there were laws that existed befor we were even here, means that there was some one who established the law of phsics and all others. God allows people to go aginst the Grain because its a nature that existed befor you or I were here, but he also gave us the ability to choose.
So if everything came down to chance and odds it would make more since to follow the laws of god to have a better chance a eternal life vs nothing after death and loosing all that you have gained while on this earth. Being a slve to your thinking and ways will not allow you to see any diffrent until you have a spiritual awakining.

referencing the bolded section, in the OT it actually does. Lev 25:44 and Exodus 21:7
 
You guys don't understand what the Bible means by 'slavery'. It's not forced labor. It's an arrangement, a contract or agreement of service. The common meanings of words change, just like the morays of any given society over time.

For example, do you know what F.U.C.K. originally meant? It was an acronym. It was a legitimate legal maneuver that British kings would use to legitimize children of their mistresses. It stands for Fornication Under Certification of the King. Now the connotation is much different, no?

Anyway, there is no such thing as a slave now, at least as the word is understood today. It was a mutual agreement back then. Indeed, no slave can exist beyond his own will. If you don't wanna be enslaved, then die on your feet like a free man fighting! Or overcome your would-be oppressors and remain free.
 
You guys don't understand what the Bible means by 'slavery'. It's not forced labor. It's an arrangement, a contract or agreement of service. The common meanings of words change, just like the morays of any given society over time.

For example, do you know what F.U.C.K. originally meant? It was an acronym. It was a legitimate legal maneuver that British kings would use to legitimize children of their mistresses. It stands for Fornication Under Certification of the King. Now the conitaion is much different, no?

Anyway, there is no such thing as a slave now, at least as the word is understood today. It was a mutual agreement back then. Indeed, no slave can exist beyond his own will. If you don't wanna be enslaved, then die on your feet like a free man fighting! Or overcome your would-be oppressors and remain free.

Numbers 31:17-18

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


Wow...looks suspiciously as if god is commanding the israelites to slaughter innocent people and turn the young virgins into sex slaves to be raped.
 
Numbers 31:31-40

31And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34And threescore and one thousand asses,

35And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.


And yet more repugnant, violent, IMMORAL acts commanded by "god"...you know, the all-merciful "good guy".
 
and just so we won't think he's, you know...unfair...did he go ahead and send a powerful representative and part the Atlantic Ocean, drowning the white slave traders and allowing all the blacks to be free - or is that kind of "divine assistance in overcoming your would-be oppressors and remaining free" for jews only?
 
and of course, deuteronomy...the horrors continue:

Deuteronomy 20:13-14

13And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
 
Numbers 31:17-18

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


Wow...looks suspiciously as if god is commanding the israelites to slaughter innocent people and turn the young virgins into sex slaves to be raped.

If you don't know the background, then yeah, it certainly can sound barbaric! It took me 2wks to finally start reading the Bible seriously. I would start and put it away, try again, then put it away. Did that 2wks before I finally decided to give it a try anyway! It was very bloody, sounded crazy, and I thought there's no way this could be for real. So I feel you D. But I just didn't know what I was reading back then, like you don't know now. You must dig deeper.

Those 'little ones' were not innocent according to God, that's what might change your mind about his orders. They were a genetically contaminated race of freaks. Nephilim inhabited the land and bread with the peoples of that area (just as I suspect they still do in the form of alien abduction accounts), making hybrids that God did not authorize. These angels responsible for this rebellion were cast down and cursed, destined for ultimate judgement, but their abomination (offspring) still had to be eradicated to preserve man. It wasn't the fault of those male children, anymore than it's a cancer's fault for growing inside you, but it still is what it is and must be removed if you hope to live as you were intended. It was not an unfathomable act of cruelty like you imply, what would be the point of that, seriously? The women who were not virgins could obviously be pregnant at the time of capture, thus allowing those altered genetics to creep back in and express themselves, therefore they had to be eradicated too. That's why only the virgins were allowed to live, and that's why only the male lineage makes much of a difference in the Bible. Christ had to be 100% pure man to fulfill God's plan, not some funky alien hybrid. Do you honestly think the God of the universe is really concerned with perverse follies, or has some less than legitimate reason for his orders? If you were god, is that anything you'd be concerned with?! (never mind, D, I know you man so don't answer that :p j/k) Don't take God too lightly. Obviously, he has his reasons and we don't see the big picture or have all the facts.
 
Nephilim inhabited the land and bread with the peoples of that area (just as I suspect they still do in the form of alien abduction accounts), making hybrids that God did not authorize. These angels responsible for this rebellion were cast down and cursed, destined for ultimate judgement, but their abomination (offspring) still had to be eradicated to preserve man. Christ had to be 100% pure man to fulfill God's plan, not some funky alien hybrid.

My new signature, for when everything else in life is blue, I can read this and smile.
 
Wow...just wow.... Xenu would like a word with you.


First of all, God as an omnipotent and omniscient being (we won't cover the inherent impossibillity of holding these traits simultaneously - just humoring) would know that we would need full disclosure of ALL the details. Where exactly in the bible are you reading this background horror novel?

Second, NOTHING...shall I make this clearer? NOTHING can exist contrary to an omnipotent being's will. therefore, the existence of such creatures HAS to be the will of this god.
 
Numbers 31:31-40

31And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34And threescore and one thousand asses,

35And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.


And yet more repugnant, violent, IMMORAL acts commanded by "god"...you know, the all-merciful "good guy".

Oh man that's nothing, he also ordered all the first born male babies alive in Egypt to be slaughtered by Abandon, the angel of death! Did you know about that one? In Exodus, the night before the Jews split town. I thought that was pretty hard-core too.

There are reasons though. If there aren't and this is just the whim of an angry, wicked, cruel god, then I will stand at your side D and fight god with all I've got when he comes for us! We'd still lose because you can't beat god, but I'd oppose him anyway. I don't believe that's the case though, or I wouldn't tell you otherwise. I know what he's put in my heart and that's not God. Just the opposite.

Also, when it says "34 And threescore and one thousand asses,".... you know it's talking about donkeys, right? :D Don't get all excited, lol.
 
Oh man that's nothing, he also ordered all the first born male babies alive in Egypt to be slaughtered by Abandon, the angel of death! Did you know about that one? In Exodus, the night before the Jews split town. I thought that was pretty hard-core too.

There are reasons though. If there aren't and this is just the whim of an angry, wicked, cruel god, then I will stand at your side D and fight god with all I've got when he comes for us! We'd still lose because you can beat god, but I'd oppose him anyway. I don't believe that's the case though, or I wouldn't tell you otherwise. I know what he's put in my heart and that's not God. Just the opposite.

Also, when it says "34 And threescore and one thousand asses,".... you know he talking about donkeys, right? :D Don't get all excited, lol.

That's a lot of ass.

You said something that I glossed over that I cannot let slide. You retreated into the believer's sanctuary of "who are we to understand god, he must have reasons".

This cannot stand as anything remotely acceptable. To assign god the designation "moral" we do so by actions according to standards. true, IF he slaughtered children wholesale - and does not disclose WHY - then he must be IMMORAL. If, when confronted, that it must be moral just because god did it - then we have moved god out of any category of morality and made him AMORAL.

You can't have both ways.
 
Tell you what...god is there right now, correct? And faith in him HAS to be possible with nothing BUT my existence and his.

So, without looking, I will open my "heart" and listen for the absolute details of these alien angels. I expect it to be explained clearly (after all, a perfect being should be a perfectly unambiguous communicator) after which the whole thing will make perfect sense. It is not an unreasonable request, and should never have had to have been made in the first place.

Just as every soul on the entire face of the earth, if held to the standard of believing in Jesus HAS to be given the entire story directly (yep...papuan savages, tribes undiscovered by modern man, etc.) by god's lips.

I mean, fair is fair right? So..how long should I hold my breath here before it is reasonable to call BS?
 
... NOTHING...shall I make this clearer? NOTHING can exist contrary to an omnipotent being's will. therefore, the existence of such creatures HAS to be the will of this god.

Indeed, it MUST be God's will, I agree. That doesn't mean I understand though! I don't know why it "needed" to unfold like this. It makes no sense why man could not get straight to the point, unopposed and untested, but maybe it's just a tedious yet necessary part of our character development. No pain no gain, it makes sense. Why did the universe have to take so many billions of years to expand before anything exciting really happened? Why did 1/3 of the angels fall? I have a lot of questions too man, lol, believe me. I don't know, but it must have been required to accomplish the final result. That's all that makes sense. This universe is ordered, it doesn't serve some futile endpoint.
 
... Just as every soul on the entire face of the earth, if held to the standard of believing in Jesus HAS to be given the entire story directly (yep...papuan savages, tribes undiscovered by modern man, etc.) by god's lips.

I mean, fair is fair right? So..how long should I hold my breath here before it is reasonable to call BS?

It doesn't have to come from his lips, that's a misconception. It's already written on men's hearts, so even if you never hear of him you already have a moral barometer built in (the spirit component of man I spoke of earlier.) In fact, the Bible said those guys that never heard of god will not be judged by his law, they'll get a much easier assessment. They will testify against themselves only, so they are their own law and will be innocent as long as they thought they were innocent. The godly hypocrites will get the worst punishment, all the guys you hate religion for today. You don't have that excuse though because you know better, so don't get any ideas. lol

As far as God's sovereignty, why must the bottom line be the standard? If you're just a little kid, and you see a surgeon cutting open a man, or see somebody shoot a rabid dog (or whatever legitimate yet alarming proceedure) you'd be upset or scared or mad or all 3, right? That's why we might label his protocols immoral, we just don't get it. He's god, were his kids, it doesn't always make since. I'm not making excuses or claiming 'believer's sanctuary' as you put it, I'm being serious. Like I said, if god turned out to be some punk, I'll be right there with you letting him know how I feel about it. ;)

As far as the alien thing, I know what it sounds like (lol) but I've seen no better explanation for these phenomena. Got any ideas that can explain these mysteries better? The Bible spells it out. Giants roamed the Earth back then, that's just how it goes man. I know it sounds wild. Get over it. :)
 
You do know that the Bible was written by man hundreds of years after jesus's death, right? Research: council of trent and council of nicea to see how hippocritical the "word of god" really is.

Kind of like a person slipping into a coma, then coming alive right after he was laid to rest and it being a 'miracle'?

You Havn't researched much have you?
Books of the Hebrew Scriptures Before the Common (Christian) Era

Name of Book: Genesis

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Wilderness

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1513

Time Covered (B.C.E.): “In the beginning” to 1657

Name of Book: Exodus

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Wilderness

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1512

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 1657-1512

Name of Book: Leviticus

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Wilderness

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1512

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 1 month (1512)

Name of Book: Numbers

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Wilderness and Plains of Moab

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1473

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 1512-1473

Name of Book: Deuteronomy

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Plains of Moab

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1473

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 2 months (1473)

Name of Book: Joshua

Writer(s): Joshua

Place Written: Canaan

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1450

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 1473–c. 1450

Name of Book: Judges

Writer(s): Samuel

Place Written: Israel

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1100

Time Covered (B.C.E.): c. 1450–c. 1120

Name of Book: Ruth

Writer(s): Samuel

Place Written: Israel

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1090

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 11 years of Judges’ rule

Name of Book: 1 Samuel

Writer(s): Samuel; Gad; Nathan

Place Written: Israel

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1078

Time Covered (B.C.E.): c. 1180-1078

Name of Book: 2 Samuel

Writer(s): Gad; Nathan

Place Written: Israel

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1040

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 1077–c. 1040

Name of Book: 1 Kings

2 Kings

Writer(s): Jeremiah

Place Written: Judah and Egypt

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1 roll 580

Time Covered (B.C.E.): c. 1040-580

Name of Book: 1 Chronicles

2 Chronicles

Writer(s): Ezra

Place Written: Jerusalem (?)

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 1 roll c. 460

Time Covered (B.C.E.): After 1 Chronicles 9:44: 1077-537

Name of Book: Ezra

Writer(s): Ezra

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 460

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 537–c. 467

Name of Book: Nehemiah

Writer(s): Nehemiah

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): a. 443

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 456–a. 443

Name of Book: Esther

Writer(s): Mordecai

Place Written: Shushan, Elam

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 475

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 493–c. 475

Name of Book: Job

Writer(s): Moses

Place Written: Wilderness

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1473

Time Covered (B.C.E.): Over 140 years between 1657 and 1473

Name of Book: Psalms

Writer(s): David and others

Place Written:

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 460

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Proverbs

Writer(s): Solomon; Agur; Lemuel

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 717

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Ecclesiastes

Writer(s): Solomon

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): b. 1000

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Song of Solomon, The

Writer(s): Solomon

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 1020

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Isaiah

Writer(s): Isaiah

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): a. 732

Time Covered (B.C.E.): c. 778–a. 732

Name of Book: Jeremiah

Writer(s): Jeremiah

Place Written: Judah; Egypt

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 580

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 647-580

Name of Book: Lamentations

Writer(s): Jeremiah

Place Written: Near Jerusalem

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 607

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Ezekiel

Writer(s): Ezekiel

Place Written: Babylon

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 591

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 613–c. 591

Name of Book: Daniel

Writer(s): Daniel

Place Written: Babylon

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 536

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 618–c. 536

Name of Book: Hosea

Writer(s): Hosea

Place Written: Samaria (District)

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): a. 745

Time Covered (B.C.E.): b. 804–a. 745

Name of Book: Joel

Writer(s): Joel

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 820 (?)

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Amos

Writer(s): Amos

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 804

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Obadiah

Writer(s): Obadiah

Place Written:

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 607

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Jonah

Writer(s): Jonah

Place Written:

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 844

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Micah

Writer(s): Micah

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): b. 717

Time Covered (B.C.E.): c. 777-717

Name of Book: Nahum

Writer(s): Nahum

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): b. 632

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Habakkuk

Writer(s): Habakkuk

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): c. 628 (?)

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Zephaniah

Writer(s): Zephaniah

Place Written: Judah

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): b. 648

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Name of Book: Haggai

Writer(s): Haggai

Place Written: Jerusalem rebuilt

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 520

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 112 days (520)

Name of Book: Zechariah

Writer(s): Zechariah

Place Written: Jerusalem rebuilt

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): 518

Time Covered (B.C.E.): 520-518

Name of Book: Malachi

Writer(s): Malachi

Place Written: Jerusalem rebuilt

Writing Completed (B.C.E.): a. 443

Time Covered (B.C.E.):

Books of the Greek Scriptures Written During the Common (Christian) Era

Name of Book: Matthew

Writer: Matthew

Place Written: Palestine

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 41

Time Covered: 2 B.C.E.–33 C.E.

Name of Book: Mark

Writer: Mark

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 60-65

Time Covered: 29-33 C.E.

Name of Book: Luke

Writer: Luke

Place Written: Caesarea

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 56-58

Time Covered: 3 B.C.E.–33 C.E.

Name of Book: John

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Ephesus, or near

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 98

Time Covered: After prologue, 29–33 C.E.

Name of Book: Acts

Writer: Luke

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 61

Time Covered: 33–c. 61 C.E.

Name of Book: Romans

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Corinth

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 56

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 1 Corinthians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Ephesus

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 55

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 2 Corinthians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Macedonia

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 55

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Galatians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Corinth or Syrian Antioch

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 50-52

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Ephesians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 60-61

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Philippians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 60-61

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Colossians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 60-61

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 1 Thessalonians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Corinth

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 50

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 2 Thessalonians

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Corinth

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 51

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 1 Timothy

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Macedonia

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 61-64

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 2 Timothy

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 65

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Titus

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Macedonia (?)

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 61-64

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Philemon

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 60-61

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Hebrews

Writer: Paul

Place Written: Rome

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 61

Time Covered:

Name of Book: James

Writer: James (Jesus’ brother)

Place Written: Jerusalem

Writing Completed (C.E.): b. 62

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 1 Peter

Writer: Peter

Place Written: Babylon

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 62-64

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 2 Peter

Writer: Peter

Place Written: Babylon (?)

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 64

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 1 John

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Ephesus, or near

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 98

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 2 John

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Ephesus, or near

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 98

Time Covered:

Name of Book: 3 John

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Ephesus, or near

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 98

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Jude

Writer: Jude (Jesus’ brother)

Place Written: Palestine (?)

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 65

Time Covered:

Name of Book: Revelation

Writer: Apostle John

Place Written: Patmos

Writing Completed (C.E.): c. 96

Time Covered:

Hundreds of years after? Please...even the encyclopedia laughs at your ingnorance.
 
Wow...just wow.... Xenu would like a word with you.


First of all, God as an omnipotent and omniscient being (we won't cover the inherent impossibillity of holding these traits simultaneously - just humoring) would know that we would need full disclosure of ALL the details. Where exactly in the bible are you reading this background horror novel?

Second, NOTHING...shall I make this clearer? NOTHING can exist contrary to an omnipotent being's will. therefore, the existence of such creatures HAS to be the will of this god.

God created us with free will, which is why Adam and Eve were able to sin(sin means falling short of the mark, the mark in this case is perfection), because they have free will to choose whether they wan to serve God or not. Forced love is not love at all, why would God want that? God could have started over but the question that Satan raised in the garden of eden would have always been there. That question bieng does God have the right to rule us, does he really know what is best for us? Looking at the way man has behaved, I would say we don't have a clue on how to runs things.Jeremiah 10:23
 
Tell you what...god is there right now, correct? And faith in him HAS to be possible with nothing BUT my existence and his.

So, without looking, I will open my "heart" and listen for the absolute details of these alien angels. I expect it to be explained clearly (after all, a perfect being should be a perfectly unambiguous communicator) after which the whole thing will make perfect sense. It is not an unreasonable request, and should never have had to have been made in the first place.

Just as every soul on the entire face of the earth, if held to the standard of believing in Jesus HAS to be given the entire story directly (yep...papuan savages, tribes undiscovered by modern man, etc.) by god's lips.

I mean, fair is fair right? So..how long should I hold my breath here before it is reasonable to call BS?

Jas 2:18
Jas 2:17
Jas 2:19
Jas 2:20
Jas. 1:18, 21
Jas 2:24
Hebrews 11:1-biblical definition of Faith
 
Which then brings us full circle AGAIN to nail down a concrete, non-contradictory descriptive of this god - and then point out where and how these characteristics are assumed (without, of course, referring the third (or more) hand "trust me"s like the bible.

Should be an easy one - who or what is god, and please tell us how you came up with each characteristic.

Even if your premise WERE valid (which it isn't), there is ZERO compelling evidence that a creator thus indicated would be anything close to resembling the judeo-christian god.

2*Tim. 3:16, 17
 
God created us with free will, which is why Adam and Eve were able to sin(sin means falling short of the mark, the mark in this case is perfection), because they have free will to choose whether they wan to serve God or not. Forced love is not love at all, why would God want that? God could have started over but the question that Satan raised in the garden of eden would have always been there. That question bieng does God have the right to rule us, does he really know what is best for us? Looking at the way man has behaved, I would say we don't have a clue on how to runs things.Jeremiah 10:23
Then why did god REMOVE pharoah's free will and purposely harden his heart, which directly resulted in the mass slaughter of egypts firstborn BABIES?

doesn't sound much like free will, since he can take it away any time he happens to feel like it. sounds like a game.

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2*Tim. 3:16, 17
Since I do not acknowledge your bible as a valid source for anything but proof of it's own corruption and contradiction, if you are making a logical pointt make it with your own brain rather than regurgitation , please.

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Then why did god REMOVE pharoah's free will and purposely harden his heart, which directly resulted in the mass slaughter of egypts firstborn BABIES?

doesn't sound much like free will, since he can take it away any time he happens to feel like it. sounds like a game.

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Ahhh, you forgot one of the original points. God hardened his heart, but that is not the opposite of softness per say, just the absence of softness! If animal man is inherently depraved to some degree just by virtue of his animal nature, then in order to harden your heart maybe all god has to do is take away his provision and leave you to your depraved self. Why criticize him for that, when more thanks are in order for all the coverage and help he gave before? It's no game man. If your kids do what you say you let them have the car on the w/e. If they don't, they get to sit it out in their room and not enjoy your provisions! To god, love is demonstrated through obedience.
 
Then why did god REMOVE pharoah's free will and purposely harden his heart, which directly resulted in the mass slaughter of egypts firstborn BABIES?

doesn't sound much like free will, since he can take it away any time he happens to feel like it. sounds like a game.

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Now to consider the controversial text wherein God said: “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you.” (Ex. 7:3, 4) Now God did not actually harden the heart of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh lost his free will in the matter. His heart hardened because of the message declared to him by Moses and Aaron. It was what caused him to react in hard stubbornness and anger. But since the message Moses and Aaron declared was really God’s message, the account says God hardened his heart. The repeated extension of God’s mercy to him by the lifting of plague after plague did not soften the Egyptian ruler, but as is usual in the case of bullies and tyrants this forbearance only made Pharaoh more intolerable, brought to the fore all the more his bullying characteristics. At Exodus 8:15 the result of relief is shown: “When Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart.” And again after the lifting of one of the plagues: “Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also.” (Ex. 8:32) Also 1*Samuel 6:6 states: “The Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts.” Does it not say Pharaoh hardened his own heart? Yes, because that was actually what happened. It only says God did it because that was how Pharaoh reacted to God’s message. Mercy shown to such arrogant men only serves to let them store up more wrath against themselves. (Rom. 2:4, 5) It is not unusual for wicked men to interpret God’s long-suffering as a sign of weakness and thus become more set in their evil ways, thinking the time of reckoning will never come: “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” (Eccl. 8:11) Pharaoh’s heart was so set in him
 
"Since I do not acknowledge your bible as a valid source for anything but proof of it's own corruption and contradiction, if you are making a logical pointt make it with your own brain rather than regurgitation , please."

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lol well if you read the scripture you would see that is states that ALL scripture is INSPIRED of God. So if he inspired the writing of the bible than the informaton in it actually comes from him...If it actually comes from him,what better way to get to know God than to read about him in his inspired works? I would like for you to point out any contradiction and corruption that you can muster as I am an avid student of the bible and its teachings and I have yet to find any.I am confidant that I can answer almost any and all questions you have about the Bible or the God contained therin.



"Should be an easy one - who or what is god, and please tell us how you came up with each characteristic."

I came to know his characteristics by reading what they are in his word the bible and appreciating them in my daily life by his blessings.God’s main attribute is love. Indeed, “God is love”—the very epitome of this quality. (1*John 4:8) Moreover, “with him there are wisdom and mightiness.” God is all-wise and all-powerful, but he never abuses his power. (Job 12:13; 37:23) We can also be sure that God will always deal fairly with us, for “righteousness and judgment are the established place of his throne.” (Psalm 97:2) If we err but are repentant, we can take comfort in the knowledge that God is “a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth.” (Exodus 34:6) No wonder we can have joy in serving God!—Psalm 100:1-5.

"Even if your premise WERE valid (which it isn't), there is ZERO compelling evidence that a creator thus indicated would be anything close to resembling the judeo-christian god."


Explain further please.I do not believe in the trinitarian belief system as it is based on pagan triads of the past.There is a lot of crap so-called modern day
christians do and celebrate that have pagan origins and do not originate with the bible.I believe in the Hebrew God YHWH(pronouce it how you will,God does have a name) and his son Yeshua(Jesus) his first creation though whom all else was created,in conjuction with the holy spirit/Gods active force(the thing which gets stuff done,inspiration,creation etc.),contained in the bible which I believe is inspired of God,not in doctrines of man.
 
lol well if you read the scripture you would see that is states that ALL scripture is INSPIRED of God.

Please tell me you didn't type this in seriousness?

So..if I read the book which claims that the book I am reading was the truth as told by god it MUST be true - because the authors of a book they were trying to sell as the truth from god would never lie about it.

INSPIRED? Is that like the "Based on a True Story" of Amityville Horror? Meaning, yeah, there was once a house in Amityville..yep, that's about the extent of the true part, while the rest was pure fiction.
 
If you don't know the background, then yeah, it certainly can sound barbaric! It took me 2wks to finally start reading the Bible seriously. I would start and put it away, try again, then put it away. Did that 2wks before I finally decided to give it a try anyway! It was very bloody, sounded crazy, and I thought there's no way this could be for real. So I feel you D. But I just didn't know what I was reading back then, like you don't know now. You must dig deeper.

Those 'little ones' were not innocent according to God, that's what might change your mind about his orders. They were a genetically contaminated race of freaks. Nephilim inhabited the land and bread with the peoples of that area (just as I suspect they still do in the form of alien abduction accounts), making hybrids that God did not authorize. These angels responsible for this rebellion were cast down and cursed, destined for ultimate judgement, but their abomination (offspring) still had to be eradicated to preserve man. It wasn't the fault of those male children, anymore than it's a cancer's fault for growing inside you, but it still is what it is and must be removed if you hope to live as you were intended. It was not an unfathomable act of cruelty like you imply, what would be the point of that, seriously? The women who were not virgins could obviously be pregnant at the time of capture, thus allowing those altered genetics to creep back in and express themselves, therefore they had to be eradicated too. That's why only the virgins were allowed to live, and that's why only the male lineage makes much of a difference in the Bible. Christ had to be 100% pure man to fulfill God's plan, not some funky alien hybrid. Do you honestly think the God of the universe is really concerned with perverse follies, or has some less than legitimate reason for his orders? If you were god, is that anything you'd be concerned with?! (never mind, D, I know you man so don't answer that :p j/k) Don't take God too lightly. Obviously, he has his reasons and we don't see the big picture or have all the facts.

So let's see...an OMNISCIENT god, correct? Well, why not tell the isrealites which ones were pregnant and which weren't? Furthermore, you seem to be claiming this is only a MALE child mutation - so what about the women that were pregnant with girls? Should they have not been spared?

Nope...**** it, just slaughter them all.

And what of the women themselves - should they mate with isrealites (sorry...they would be raped by them, so mate would be too soft of a word./ But rape is morally reprehensible, isn't it?) yielding male offspring - would their altered genetics then be passed along again?

Sorry, this makes zero sense.
 
You guys don't understand what the Bible means by 'slavery'. It's not forced labor. It's an arrangement, a contract or agreement of service. The common meanings of words change, just like the morays of any given society over time.

For example, do you know what F.U.C.K. originally meant? It was an acronym. It was a legitimate legal maneuver that British kings would use to legitimize children of their mistresses. It stands for Fornication Under Certification of the King. Now the connotation is much different, no?

Anyway, there is no such thing as a slave now, at least as the word is understood today. It was a mutual agreement back then. Indeed, no slave can exist beyond his own will. If you don't wanna be enslaved, then die on your feet like a free man fighting! Or overcome your would-be oppressors and remain free.
I cannot disagree more with your claim. What was the problem with Egypt and Pharoah, then, if the israelites were not truly enslaved? I mean, they were there by their own choice, right?

And just so your words are bare to everyone, the act of taking slaves is NOT moraly wrong, because the slave could have chosen to die instead? Are you serious? I mean, if you don't want to be raped, then die - nothing wrong with the rapist himself, right...she was asking for it.
 
Why, oh why, was this thread brought back to life?!

Thank goodness for Dsade...

Why are you giveing Dsade praise, this thread is going on because there are peopl that belive in what is being said. As belivers we are told to preach the gospel and truth. From the things that have been stated above there are clearly some strongholds in individuals mind that need to be adressed. John 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 2:20 But jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of men, He knew what was in men. This also helps to further explain the situation with Pharaoh and god knowing his heart and that it would be harden through his own free will. Point being God chooses who he reveals himself to based on the condition of your heart. If you have the ability to repent in your heart the salvation is free to you. For people who choose to keep cold hearts and God being all knowing, He chooses not to reveal himself to that individual. But as the last Ronin stated above he still shows mercy to individuals that harden there hearts, as he did with pharaoh and lifting the curse's. Also after seeing the plagues and that Moses spoke the truth to him concearning the coming of the plagues, why did Pharaoh continue to test god?
 
Please tell me you didn't type this in seriousness?

So..if I read the book which claims that the book I am reading was the truth as told by god it MUST be true - because the authors of a book they were trying to sell as the truth from god would never lie about it.

INSPIRED? Is that like the "Based on a True Story" of Amityville Horror? Meaning, yeah, there was once a house in Amityville..yep, that's about the extent of the true part, while the rest was pure fiction.

You sure about that, matt? I've been reading up on the parnanormal and parapsychology for quite some time now (10+ years); while i'm most certainly a skeptic by nature (and MANY of the claims of parnormal activity are fabricated and/or false), but there is no doubt in my mind that there's a real paranormal phenomena based on the research that i've done, and personal experiences i had as a kid in the home where i grew up.

I've read up on the amityville case and researched it quite a bit. I even met ed and lorraine warren (10 years ago) who were personally there investigating it at the time of occurance.

I may be one of those things you'd have to see to believe to some, so i can understand your stance there; however it's one of those things you really can't discount as a possibility either.
 
Please tell me you didn't type this in seriousness?

So..if I read the book which claims that the book I am reading was the truth as told by god it MUST be true - because the authors of a book they were trying to sell as the truth from god would never lie about it.

INSPIRED? Is that like the "Based on a True Story" of Amityville Horror? Meaning, yeah, there was once a house in Amityville..yep, that's about the extent of the true part, while the rest was pure fiction.

Amityville? I grew up near there, just thought I would interject that.


continue :)
 
In terms of Egypt, lets take a look. There is little evidence supporting the jews as "slaves" per se, in fact there is greater evidence supporting that prior to the New Kingdom (2nd intermediate period) the Jews actually controlled Egypt. In fact it is believed that the Ancient Hyksos, were the ancient Israelites and were thrown out (Exodus) by the returning Pharaoh Ahmose I.

Also of interest, is that the translation of Ahmose is "brother of Moses". Kinda funny.

Overall, we must remember that both OT and NT are books written at the hand of man, and havbe been altered and retranslated countless times. The words of truth at this point are most likely far lost.
 
You sure about that, matt? I've been reading up on the parnanormal and parapsychology for quite some time now (10+ years); while i'm most certainly a skeptic by nature (and MANY of the claims of parnormal activity are fabricated and/or false), but there is no doubt in my mind that there's a real paranormal phenomena based on the research that i've done, and personal experiences i had as a kid.

I've read up on the amityville case and researched it quite a bit. I even met ed and lorraine warren (10 years ago) who were personally there investigating it at the time of occurance.

I may be one of those things you'd have to see to believe to some, so i can understand your stance there; however it's one of those things you really can't discount as a possibility either.


The mind does a lot to itself, and we try to categorize it to fit something that seems to make sense. Not to discount the possibility of it existing, but there IS nothing, by definition, that is SUPERnatural. If it exists, it is natural.

I have no doubt that weird things happen - but perhaps related to energy types which we are not familiar with, dark matter, etc. - and ascribing ghostly origin or demonic, etc just doesn't have objective proof.

There is a ton of discussion all over the place, with huge points of disagreement about CORE events. The ones that stick by it benefit financially by the perpetuation of the story as true.
 
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