Does DHEA supplementation have any impact on the HPTA?
- Thread starter BigAk
- Start date
JanSz
Well-known member
For more than a year I am taking 350mg of DHEA and 200mg of 7ketoDHEA.Dr. John said:
My starting blood test was DHEAs=118 on Apr2005
My last week result is DHEAs=369
I am still far from ideal level of 400–500 µg/dL
as recomended by LEF
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Relative to what I see posted on this board, I am taking massive amounts of DHEA.
Any comment, what kind of negative symptoms shoud I watch for.
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I also note that at one time LEF was recomending levels of (500-640), and now they are little lower.
JanSz
Well-known member
JanSz said:
Dr. John said:
Very interesting.
Most, if not all my supplements are from LEF, Life Extension Foundation.
I am taking all of their Top Ten (previously Top 12) recomended items plus some more.
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As for DHEA I was mostly taking their 25mg pills, now they have stronger version, 100mg so that is what I take.
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I will have to check up with them and question quality of their supplies.
From their web site (with their text in bold):
Foundation members are an elite group who are willing to take extraordinary steps to stave off disease,
aging, and death. When members buy products from the Life Extension Buyers Club,
they are assured of pharmaceutical quality and potency.
Pharmaceutical potency means that you are obtaining the actual dose of nutrients used in published studies to demonstrate beneficial results.
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Wonder if there may be another reason for my inadequate response to my large DHEA intake?
.
JanSz
Well-known member
Do not remember exactly, but I take these high dose of DHEA for at least one whole year. On the day of the test (8AM), I took supplements (including DHEA) after the blood was drawn for the test. The previous day I took most of my DHEA in the morning. So there was about 24 hours between my DHEA intake and blood draw.Dr. John said:
1cc
Member
JanSz said:
To improve absorption DHEA needs to be taken with something oily or fatty. Take DHEA in the morning after breakfast with a tablespoon of olive oil. According to LEF, DHEA labs should be taken 3-4 hours after taking DHEA in the morning.
"When having your blood tested for DHEA, blood should be drawn three to four hours after the last dose."
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JanSz
Well-known member
1cc said:
Dr. John said:
I do not take oil specifically, but I divide my supplements (morning/evening) and eat them with meal.
Most supplements I am taking in the morning.
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is taken twice daily and it contain lots of additional supplements that LEF decided are apropriate.
Then is 300mg of DHEA, then also in divided dose I take
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that may account for the oils and omega-3
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I have a problem with taking DHEA and then shortly after get the blood test.
Usually at LabCorp they want me to come early in the morning and no eating or drinking before the blood draw.
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Just got monthly LEF magazine for December.
Reading "At home with your hormones" (page 47) got me thinking that I may be low on Pregnenolone.
My Pregnenolone on 10/20/06 was 23 ng/dL (LEF 180)
So I am far from desired level. I started supplementing with 200 mg right after I read my results.
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Pregnenolone converts to DHEA and Progesterone. Both of them can be increased in my case.
.
Thanks for comments.
.
JanSz
Well-known member
On quality.
We had a little mention on our supplements quality.
Sometimes we have no choice when making purchase.
But if there is a choice we would preffer to go with quality.
I think LEF provides quality products by virtue of their research and advertising.
Once they have shipped to me second batch of supplements requesting that I destroy the one they shipped to me a week before and explaining that their QA discover that the old one were not up to standard.
There is (possibly more formal) way to go about quality.
There is a Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP) certification from the National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA).
I know that NowFoods have a such certification.
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If you know of anybody else, please list it here.
We had a little mention on our supplements quality.
Sometimes we have no choice when making purchase.
But if there is a choice we would preffer to go with quality.
I think LEF provides quality products by virtue of their research and advertising.
Once they have shipped to me second batch of supplements requesting that I destroy the one they shipped to me a week before and explaining that their QA discover that the old one were not up to standard.
There is (possibly more formal) way to go about quality.
There is a Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP) certification from the National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA).
I know that NowFoods have a such certification.
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If you know of anybody else, please list it here.
1cc
Member
JanSz said:
All you need to do is make sure it says "Pharmaceutical Grade" DHEA on the bottle. I use DHEA by "LifeTime", and it is "100% Pharmaceutical Grade" and very cheap and works very well. I only take 25mg per day. I am so surprised you are able to tolerate such a high DHEA dosage. I can only suspect that your absorption is not good.
DR.D
Well-known member
Not really. There can be some significant conversion to 5AD and related metabolites but that is not necessarily estrogenic in the absence of endogenous, pre-existing estrogen. It will actually amplify whatever is already in your system whether it be androgen or estrogen.
I have been criticized before for recommending a 200,100,50 step-down DHEA dose in PCT, but I've done it many a time and it works well to maintain libido and counter elevated cortisol when liver enzymes are still high and adrenal function re-regulates in the weeks post cycle. If you have ever tried it, you know it helps! It is also much more orally active that most people realize too, but 200mg/d or less is OK even for long term use (months). You will generally not encounter suppression or estrogen elevation. I have read studies that the size of the left testicle of rodents can be preferentially stimulated with use of DHEA, still waiting to see that!
I have been criticized before for recommending a 200,100,50 step-down DHEA dose in PCT, but I've done it many a time and it works well to maintain libido and counter elevated cortisol when liver enzymes are still high and adrenal function re-regulates in the weeks post cycle. If you have ever tried it, you know it helps! It is also much more orally active that most people realize too, but 200mg/d or less is OK even for long term use (months). You will generally not encounter suppression or estrogen elevation. I have read studies that the size of the left testicle of rodents can be preferentially stimulated with use of DHEA, still waiting to see that!
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
Yes, sorry not to clarify 5-androstenediol (5-AD). The majority of endogenous DHEA would normally be biosynthesizes from 17a-OH-preg. DHEA is then mostly converted by 17b-OH-dehydrogenate to 5-AD. Also, trace amounts of androst-4-ene-3,17-dione will be generated from DHEA by the 3b-OH-dehydrogenase and then isomerase pathways, just as trace amounts of 5-AD will be converted to test by those same enzyme systems. Some of these intermediate are prone to aromatize on the 4-ene pathway, but on the 5-ene path (where most of the action is with DHEA) strongly androgenic mixed a/b isomers of the reduced 5a and 5b intermediates will predominate. People say that DHEA is very estrogenic, but that's probably just because that's what they've heard and have never tried it. It is one of the most androgenic hormones I have ever used. I've grown more body hair attributable to DHEA use that anything else over the years. It's an interesting compound and something that I will likely use more and more as I get older. Of course, some may have systems that suppost estrogen formation or expression based of their genes, diet or environement, so this is only my general observation and some may still have probs with DHEA. Very few that I have seen do though even at 250mg/d. Ance is the biggest side at that dose and ~100mg will do for most depending on the specific application.
BigAk
Member
Wow... If it's that androgenic, I can't help but think that it should have an impact on altering the HPTA. But, if it is estrogenic, I surely do not want to mess with it. It sounds like either way, it's not a good idea to supplement with it.DR.D said:
Now; I have mixed feelings on DHEA...
DR.D
Well-known member
BigAk said:
Yeah, you would think so but it's mostly under adrenal control. It is not a testicular hormone. In massive doses, I would think it has to influence HPTA but at the lower doses I mentioned, it must only influence the HPAA if anything because I've never had an issue with it. It's a good supp when applied properly in the right dose.
DR.D
Well-known member
Moyer,
It was studies like that in the mid to late 80's that really got me interested in it too. I read studies that actually demonstrated that fat cells could be converted into muscle cells! That had never been shown to occur before and I forget the mechanism cited but 1600mg/d would make my face break out like a teenager! I can not tolerate over 500mg/d, it's just too androgenic to my skin specifically, but it may be an idiosyncrasy with me alone. If you can tolerate the higher doses, it would be nice for you to share the data.
It was studies like that in the mid to late 80's that really got me interested in it too. I read studies that actually demonstrated that fat cells could be converted into muscle cells! That had never been shown to occur before and I forget the mechanism cited but 1600mg/d would make my face break out like a teenager! I can not tolerate over 500mg/d, it's just too androgenic to my skin specifically, but it may be an idiosyncrasy with me alone. If you can tolerate the higher doses, it would be nice for you to share the data.
Werewolf
Active member
My guess if you take all your DHEA in the morning, that it will have minimum effect on your HPTA because the effects are basically gone before you sleep. I am also guessing that is the least efficient way to take DHEA and that it really needs to be taken 3 or 4 times a day for most effect because of short half-life. I'm just guessing.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
My levels came up over 100% my Dr. told me to take it in the morning and at noon. But there is junk out there I take a good brand.Werewolf said:
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My wife has been sick for yrs. with Thyroid problems going from Endo to Endo not doing any good. She found a new Dr. that treats with Armour and he did a dam lot of testing on her and found her DHEA was low below normal. She come home with the same brand name her Dr. gave her to take. She was told to take the same dose and now after 2 months she is doing great.
Phil
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Phil should they test for dhea or dhea-s for accurate readings in serums. MY pregnenolone serum came out to be 10 (0--200). Is it better to use pregnenolone to raise dhea levels or use both at lower dosage. thanks
hardasnails1973
Registered User
If one has adrenal fatigue (low cortisol) would taking dhea be counter productive since it is antcortical. I am on TRT but dr does not know anything about pregnenolone. At teh health food store there is a transdermal pregnenolone. What is the usualy recommended amount to balance the pathways. I know bioavailabity is the most important thing and orals are 250-30% less bioavialable then creme. I have been takin licorace root for cortisol levels with isocort and I was wondering if this could be cause estrogen levels to rise. Going to get dhea -s, free testosterone, total t, freet t-3, estrodial checked next time to see what is going one. Ever since I stopped the armidex no more morning wood, mental confusion, and decreased exercise tolerance, fat accumulatins an all the fun stuff of estrogen dominace. i need to get this **** balanced. Dr has been very open about things since all others had abandoned me and just prescribed paxil..Go figure
1cc
Member
hardasnails1973 said:
When one has Adrenal Fatigue, usually both cortisol and DHEA are low. DHEA dramatically improved my blood sugar control (hypoglycemia) and energy level after adding it in to my existing regimen of daily hydrocortisone. The synergistic effect of both the hydrocortisone and the DHEA together was much better than the hydrocortisone alone.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
That was what i was thinking as well, but I never had a dr that was willing to monitor me so unfortunately I never know what dosage to take, plus with having an estrogen problem which is pretty much obvious (lack of morning erection, drop in energy, poor appetite, weight gain, depression) Could taking dhea make it even worse since it converts to estrogen. I found an interesting study where .5 mgs armidex a day for 10 weeks increased testosterone almost 50% after only the second day. Do you think stopping armidex and just taking the testocreme is a good idea just to get a true base line reading. Like I said before my estrodial was 30 with low free and low testosterone so I can only imagine what it is with 10% testosterone. Also found the study show a deficient increase in DHEA with lower estrogen levels.
For pregnenolone 50mgs of transdermal once daily Correct.
What is your opinon of using progesterone if estrogen dominance is indicated or just use the armidex since it is more easily to monitor.
For pregnenolone 50mgs of transdermal once daily Correct.
What is your opinon of using progesterone if estrogen dominance is indicated or just use the armidex since it is more easily to monitor.
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
What kind of doses? Like the 1600mg oral doses in that one study? I can't say that I remember ever running across any adverse liver data really. I think 17-ketos are generally very non-toxic due to their ease of metabolism. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you DJ!
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
Yes. Good point. That is why I have no personal bloodwork to offer in this area! Concurrent use of SERM means you can't get a real estrogen value so who knows. Use of DHEA during PCT is just one of those things you try by chance one time and notice that it worked. Then you try to go back and piece together why it worked. DHEA has good corticometric activity like you say and with or without a suicide AI just works well it seems. I stick to the BID dosing (morning and noon), just because it is a rule not to dose past noon, though only a personal rule and I have no relevant data to validate the significance of early dosing.
bioman
Well-known member
I recently saw a DHEA hepatotoxicity study and the range was calculated out to be between 2000 and 10,000 mg per day for humans (based on a rat model).
I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.
In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.
I think I would die of oily skin and acne well before my liver failed. We have actually seen anecdotal info from guys using 2 grams of DHEA per day for muscle building purposes. They reported excellent muscle hardness and very mild gains in lbm. What their livers were doing is a good question though.
In using low doses of DHEA for my wife..it's been amazing to help her recover from the effects of prednisone(she has UC). I have seen some Drs now recommend DHEA to be taken concurrently with any corticosteriod to provide adrenal support. It also appears that DHEA has a stronger anti-inflammatory property than previously known. Most women though, I have noted, are taking way too high of a dose.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
My wife has Hashimoto thyroiditis was on Synthroid for 15yrs. never felt good. I got her to stop seeing Endo's and now she sees a Dr. that uses Armour he tested her and found her to have Adrenal Fatigue from being on Synthroid for so long. Her DHEA was below noraml so he started her on 25mgs of DHEA 6 weeks later she was doing better but her DHEA levels were still to low so now she take 25mgs 2x's a day and she if feeling like a new women. Her tests are on the money and now he is treating her Adrenal Fatigue also the first thing he put her on was a script for Fish Oil 3 grams a day. She was able now to start upping her Armour with out feeling Hyper.
Phil
Phil
bioman said:
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Dr. John said:
That is intersting could this be the reasoning that why 7 keto works so well that maybe the increasing the dhea is increasing the ratio of dhea/7keto? or should it claims to increase t-3 conversions. I need to research and find if there are studies back it up that be interesting to see.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Dr. John said:
THAT BE ME LOL my progesterone was out of range pregelone was at 5 but drs response "oh you are just a little bit out do not worry its nothing to be concerned about"
:saw:
I just checked back on all my labs from previous years and estrodial was never above 22 even at 1100 ng/dl of test, but I had only the one reading where progesterone was elevated, but was ignored..
Now in this case HCG would not be appropiate since it does increase progesterone and was possible altering effects of testosterone. Could this be plausible?
Then another dr suggested to take 500 mgs on pregnelone. i politely mentioined "dr isn't the thyroid responsible for converting cholesterol into pregenlone?" He just sat there with a frazzle look on his face. :run:
This has been the kind of medical advice i have been getting for past 2 years suprise i do not have one foot in the grave already.
The kicker of it all was first thyroid test reading 3 years ago was serum t-3 was 10 points from lowest range and ft-4 was at 90% higher, testosterone was 40!! and he offered me paxil and seek psychotherapy.
I like to thank dr john for devoting his time because with there are few DRs that take the time to research and explain things so people can understand. With his information i am learning to avoid certain pit falls before they happen. I may take one step forward but i was taking 3 steps back. Since being on this site and under a compassionate dr who is open minded and enjoys learning new methods. My dr told me if I come up with any new information and there is validation scientifically to back it up then he would be willing to consider it. Now I take 2 steps forward and only one step back. As always for people that help me i always willing to give back as much as i can
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Raw coming off HC you need to support adrenals with lifestlye modifications would be the biggest aid in recovery (constant sleep patterns, relaxation techniques, ect) Protocol that might help would be
1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning
100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
calcium 1000 mgs
zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out
hope this helps
1500-2000 mgs b5 take first thing in the morning
100-200 mgs theanine every 4-6 hours
1000 mgs vitamin ester C 3 times a day
800 ius vitamin E (responsible for 6 enzymatic reactions down the hormonal cascade)
rhodiola roscea- helps modulate cortisol level (High or low levels) 150 - 300 mgs once a day
magnesium 750 mgs - 400 before bed time with 30 mgs zinc
calcium 1000 mgs
zinc 50 mgs total daily with 3 mgs copper to balance it out
hope this helps
raw1973
New member
hardasnails1973 said:
Thanks- I do take most of the items in your list except the theanine( never heard of it, but will look into it) and I take the cal/mag/zinc in one tab usually in morning and spread b5 1500 throughout the day. Why do you take these at these times? I'm especially curious about the full 2000 mg b5 in morning? Thanks in advance- Also, thanks to Doctor John
bioman
Well-known member
From my experience yes, it gives a sustained boost and feels different overall than taking it orally. Intuitively, you would recieve a small but steady stream rather than a pulse as seems to be the case with a lot of transdermal hormones.
Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.
Hard to quantify the dose you are recieving though.
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
I suspect you were still right the first time DJ. You see less undesirable metabolism with TD testosterone and I would think it should be applicable to DHEA as well. I thought this in part was due to steady state concentrations not upregulating inducible enzymes like peaking plasma levels can with oral use, in addition to the affect of extra first pass metabolism. I have seen lots of data on absorption, metabolism and fate of acetate and propionate esters of TD corticoids but am not too familiar with the aromatization potential of unmodified DHEA by TD route. I'll have to look into it because you have me wondering now too!
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
Well, oral delivery of testosterone results in unusually high levels of 17-keto metabolites (androstenedione). Unfavorable metabolism starts in the gut, not to mention the first pass in the liver like you mentioned earlier and the aromatase induction that a hormonal spike will promote. 17-ketos are exceptional substrates for this enzyme. You may as well take a little estrone! DHEA seems well suited for oral use because it is already oxidized at the C-17 plus it is apparently very well absorbed and I have never been able to find a good TD delivery system, so I had abandoned that concept until you got me thinking of it again, but test is certainly better delivered TD over oral.
Ddono25
Member
Is taking DHEA with a SERM like nolva as good as taking it with an AI as far as reducing estrogenic sides? With a SERM will their be the estrogen still floating around doing what it does? What about post cycle therapy with DHEA and nolva? I am still confused as to whether DHEA would be supressive or if it would help with getting things back to baseline.
DR.D
Well-known member
Ddono25 said:
I use DHEA in PCT for libido support and cortisol antagonism. Basically 200,100,50 or close to it for the first 3-4 wks only. It doesn't seem to suppress or deny recovery time and really smooths out the initial phase of PCT. I know a lot of guys who get great results like this, though some still argue against it. You should give it a personal trial to know for sure.
DR.D
Well-known member
Dr. John said:
Oh yes, always with an AI concurrently! I'm not as concerned that it contributes significantly to estrogen biosynthesis as I am about it's ability to amplify the effects of pre-existing estrogen though a metabolite called 5-AD, so attenuating estrogen is the safest plan and appropriate at the time we are discussing anyway.