DMAA Alternative

[Patrick Arnold]

Pat, how safe do you think it is to take DMAA and ephedrine together but without any caffeine? I would like to get the bronchodilation effects of ephedrine and the "feeling" of DMAA...

i dont know how anyone can answer that

i have done it without issue

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I presume that what is special with DMAA is that the molecule is methylated on the alpha position protecting the amine from MAO? Also due to only a partial phenyl ring structure it cannot be considered as amphetamine analog?

The pity with most PEA analogs (including halostachine) is the lack of the amine protection, due to the “nakedness” on alpha position.

yes it is alpha methylated and the isopropyl portion may be bulky enough to mimic at least to some extent the phenyl portion of phenethylamine compounds

 

[Patrick Arnold]

On a side note, as I see that you also experimented with NMT which is a tryptamine with poor oral bioavailability (according Shulgin, #50 in Tihkal).

Now I do not exactly know the laws around tryptamines, but did you researched the possibility of finding a legal and natural tryptamine with good oral bioavailability and use it as a stimulant? Do you know about Dr. James Fadiman’s work on micro dosing psychedelics? It seems that a micro dose have a good stimulant with anti-depressive properties. Now, I understand that you cannot use what Fadiman experimented with, but I suppose, that there may be a similar compound in structure and properties as of those that are already scheduled?

EDIT: Hmmm, I probably was too quick with assuming that NMT is N-Methyltryptamine, while you probably meant N-Methyltyramine? However, the question still stands, since tickling the serotonergic receptors seems to produce very noticeable stimulatory effects.

yeah tyramine and tryptamine quite differernt

tryptamines tend to be hallucinatory. i did look into that category of natural compounds and the psychedelic aspect makes them undesirable for sports supplement use

 

[Patrick Arnold]

What serotonergic drugs do you find stimulating?

LSD is quite stimulating indeed

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Well Dr. Fadiman was experimenting with LSD in 25mcg doses, or rather he asked volunteers to report their experience with such a small doses. This due to the fact that LSD was already scheduled. The same effect has been reported from users of psilocybe mushrooms, where the definition of micro dose is a fifth of the normal dose. Both LSD and Psilocin/Psilocybin are agonists of 5-HT_2A, 5-HT_2C and 5-HT_1A serotonergic receptors. If you spend some time searching the net there is plenty of anecdotal reports from people who tried it and it worked for them. There are unfortunately no legit published papers about this is due to the halting of all research with psychedelic compounds in 60ies. However I am convinced that if there is an unscheduled natural and active compound stimulating these three types of serotonergic receptors, it will produce a quite notable stimulant like (full off energy, focused, well productive) effect at very small doses.

psilocybin mushrooms at a dose that is just below the hallucinatory dose can make one feel quite good

 

[Kelt]

yeah tyramine and tryptamine quite differernt

tryptamines tend to be hallucinatory. i did look into that category of natural compounds and the psychedelic aspect makes them undesirable for sports supplement use

Yes, since tryptamines are serotonergic agonists, they will make you trip at higher doses.

But I was just wondering, if there would still be a legal compound that stimulates same serotonergic receptors as Psilocybin, would it not be of an interest at very small doses? I do understand that you in that case need to be extra careful with dosing. On another hand if we joke little bit, I presume you would get a whole a lot of new hippie customers.

 

[Kelt]

LSD is quite stimulating indeed

I presume why LSD is so stimulatory is due to the fact that it also stimulates dopamine receptors and a whole bunch of other receptors.

 

[Kelt]

psilocybin mushrooms at a dose that is just below the hallucinatory dose can make one feel quite good

Well, from what I could dig up, the Psilocybin do not only give you the good feeling. Many do report increased focus, energy levels and productivity at work.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Yes, since tryptamines are serotonergic agonists, they will make you trip at higher doses.

But I was just wondering, if there would still be a legal compound that stimulates same serotonergic receptors as Psilocybin, would it not be of an interest at very small doses? I do understand that you in that case need to be extra careful with dosing. On another hand if we joke little bit, I presume you would get a whole a lot of new hippie customers.

selling something with the potential for hallucinations is a legal risk both criminally and civilly that i would rather avoid

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I presume why LSD is so stimulatory is due to the fact that it also stimulates dopamine receptors and a whole bunch of other receptors.

from what i understand those other neurochemicals are activated as a downstream consequence of the serotonin effect

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Well, from what I could dig up, the Psilocybin do not only give you the good feeling. Many do report increased focus, energy levels and productivity at work.

I can see that

I also saw on TV that the stuff is an effective prophylactic treatment for cluster headaches

 

[SpicedCider]

What does NMT make you feel like? Are you able to read/hear anything once and have it "locked" in your memory?

 

[Kelt]

selling something with the potential for hallucinations is a legal risk both criminally and civilly that i would rather avoid

Hmmm, would that be a possibility even if the compound is still fully legal? I do understand that the dosing is very critical, but I am surprised about the legality issues.

Just out of the curiosity, when you investigated tryptamines, was it only theoretically or did you also made some practical tests? If so, did you notice the stimulatory aspect in these compounds?

 

[Kelt]

from what i understand those other neurochemicals are activated as a downstream consequence of the serotonin effect

Yes, that is true. Dr. David E. Nichols has a nice lecture on youtube, where he does explain this phenomenon.

 

[Kelt]

I can see that

I also saw on TV that the stuff is an effective prophylactic treatment for cluster headaches

Yes, I found a documentary on youtube about this. Apparently someone made an analog to LSD with a bromo (Br) atom attached to it. This “tweak” prevent this analog to be hallucinogenic, due to the size of the bromo atom, however the effect of eliminating cluster headaches is still there.

I think there is a lot of interesting research reappearing in this area.

 

[truthornothin]

I can see that

I also saw on TV that the stuff is an effective prophylactic treatment for cluster headaches

it just made me see aztec skulls

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Hmmm, would that be a possibility even if the compound is still fully legal? I do understand that the dosing is very critical, but I am surprised about the legality issues.

Just out of the curiosity, when you investigated tryptamines, was it only theoretically or did you also made some practical tests? If so, did you notice the stimulatory aspect in these compounds?

if i found a tryptamine that had the potential for hallucinations but was not scheduled the law could decide to make it controlled at any time due to the analog act. And class action attorneys would jump all over it if the product became successful at all

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Hmmm, would that be a possibility even if the compound is still fully legal? I do understand that the dosing is very critical, but I am surprised about the legality issues.

Just out of the curiosity, when you investigated tryptamines, was it only theoretically or did you also made some practical tests? If so, did you notice the stimulatory aspect in these compounds?

i took a couple of those things yes and didnt feel that great

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i still have some 5-methoxytryptamine, 5-methoxytryptophol, oxindole etc in my lab. i tried these and didnt have what i recall as good experience

 

[Kelt]

if i found a tryptamine that had the potential for hallucinations but was not scheduled the law could decide to make it controlled at any time due to the analog act. And class action attorneys would jump all over it if the product became successful at all

Thank you for the time to explaining this.

Regarding yohimbine from the other thread, we could say that it is a sort of a tryptamine based stimulant? It has an indole, but do not know if the locked amine in that side position classifies to be considered as tryptamine. From what I could read it has a lot of activity both as an agonist and antagonist on a numerous types of serotonin receptors.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Thank you for the time to explaining this.

Regarding yohimbine from the other thread, we could say that it is a sort of a tryptamine based stimulant? It has an indole, but do not know if the locked amine in that side position classifies to be considered as tryptamine. From what I could read it has a lot of activity both as an agonist and antagonist on a numerous types of serotonin receptors.

yohimbine does have the indole ring group as part of its structure however i dont know the pharmacological significance of that

i also dont know much about yohimbines properties in the body other than that it is a alpha2-adrenergic antagonist, and that it causes peripheral vasodilation

 

[Kelt]

i still have some 5-methoxytryptamine, 5-methoxytryptophol, oxindole etc in my lab. i tried these and didnt have what i recall as good experience

As I understand it, only the 5-methoxytryptamine is an actual tryptamine. I never heard about the other two compounds. Alexander Shulgin wrote a really interesting book about tryptamines, called Tihkal. Many of the compounds are not legal, but the most interesting is his discussions about the structural differences and their impact on bioavailability and activity.

 

[Kelt]

yohimbine does have the indole ring group as part of its structure however i dont know the pharmacological significance of that

i also dont know much about yohimbines properties in the body other than that it is a alpha2-adrenergic antagonist, and that it causes peripheral vasodilation

From what I could understand the definition of an tryptamine family of compounds is a molecular structure where the amine is attached to an indole with an ethyl chain, that is 3-(2-aminoethyl)indole. If we take the LSD as an example it also have the aminoethyl chain locked in a ring structure, however pointing “up” from the indole base. And what I know it is considered to belong to tryptamine family. Most of the other tryptamines I have seen usually have freely rotating aminoethyl chain. Therefore I am not fully sure if a compound with aminoethyl chain locked on the side is a part of the tryptamine family. Not that it really matters.

About yohimbine’s activity in the brain, according to wiki, it does affect a lot of different 5-HT receptors. Also in the description about Serotonin receptors also in wiki, is a nice overview table with the various receptors, stating its specific functions together with examples of agonists and antagonists. The yohimbine does appears in numerous placeless. That yohimbine have a strong activity on serotonin receptors would also explain the side effects that many (including you) experience.

But what do I know, as I said previously organic chemistry is more of a very fun and interesting hobby of mine.:thinking:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

From what I could understand the definition of an tryptamine family of compounds is a molecular structure where the amine is attached to an indole with an ethyl chain, that is 3-(2-aminoethyl)indole. If we take the LSD as an example it also have the aminoethyl chain locked in a ring structure, however pointing “up” from the indole base. And what I know it is considered to belong to tryptamine family. Most of the other tryptamines I have seen usually have freely rotating aminoethyl chain. Therefore I am not fully sure if a compound with aminoethyl chain locked on the side is a part of the tryptamine family. Not that it really matters.

About yohimbine’s activity in the brain, according to wiki, it does affect a lot of different 5-HT receptors. Also in the description about Serotonin receptors also in wiki, is a nice overview table with the various receptors, stating its specific functions together with examples of agonists and antagonists. The yohimbine does appears in numerous placeless. That yohimbine have a strong activity on serotonin receptors would also explain the side effects that many (including you) experience.

But what do I know, as I said previously organic chemistry is more of a very fun and interesting hobby of mine.:thinking:

i am no expert on neurobiology neurochemistry etc. I rely on looking these things up because i dont spend much time dealing with them. I did more years back

 

[Kelt]

i am no expert on neurobiology neurochemistry etc. I rely on looking these things up because i dont spend much time dealing with them. I did more years back

No problem, I was just curious about your point of view, due to your years of experience.