EESCHMan
Member
Example:
You see someone being raped and tortured...you have a gun and can prevent it, yet you do nothing.
Are you good person?
I think not...
Same as "God" sitting by when he CAN do something...
Dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden...
- Thread starter CRUNCH
- Start date
Example:
You see someone being raped and tortured...you have a gun and can prevent it, yet you do nothing.
Are you good person?
I think not...
Same as "God" sitting by when he CAN do something...
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I can't believe in a god that would allow all the suffering of innocent people and animals to continue. Humans have been torturing each other for thousands of years, when is enough, enough?
Once again. It has nothing to do with God, we chose to not follow God's rules and this is why we suffer! When enough is enough? When everyone on Earth realize we are all one, learn to love each other, get along and follow God's rules again and bring Heaven here on Earth.
At some point long ago, this god would have shown it's self and put a stop to everything.
He did that already two thousand years ago, people refused to follow Him.
Right now, in my mind, this god is not all loving and/or simply just doesn't care what we do to each other.
You are wrong about Him. If you ever ask for His help He will answer you.
Once again. It has nothing to do with God, we chose to not follow God's rules and this is why we suffer! When enough is enough? When everyone on Earth realize we are all one, learn to love each other, get along and follow God's rules again and bring Heaven here on Earth.
At some point long ago, this god would have shown it's self and put a stop to everything.
He did that already two thousand years ago, people refused to follow Him.
Right now, in my mind, this god is not all loving and/or simply just doesn't care what we do to each other.
You are wrong about Him. If you ever ask for His help He will answer you.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Please demonstrate how a 6 month old child "chooses not to follow god's rules" and must therefore suffer heinous punishment inflicted by some sick bastard.
mmowry
Board Sponsor
Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
I wish you all the best and this was a good discussion but we will all know for sure when we draw our last breath and then it will be too late to change our minds.We'll have to live with the decision weve made for eternity.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
I wish you all the best and this was a good discussion but we will all know for sure when we draw our last breath and then it will be too late to change our minds.We'll have to live with the decision weve made for eternity.
CRUNCH
Registered User
If he truelly loved us all, he would wait any longer (or nearly as long as he has) for us to figure it out. I think we've proven quite well that we will not get it right. The suffering and cruelity should have been stopped. Period.
At some point I may believe in him, but I will not love him or believe he loves us. Right now, if he exists, then he's indifferent to us, not caring one way or the other what we do to each other. That is what I bleieve.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
It's not her, she's innocent. People in general refuse to follow God's rules very long time ago and many innocent people suffer because of that.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
So what do you want Him to do? Take your free will away from you? Will every person on Earth agree with you? I don't think so.
You can make a difference in this world yourself by helping other's and trying to follow God's advice. You can use your free will by doing something good and making differnce in your and your loved ones life. And if everyone would do that, world would be a better place.
CRUNCH
Registered User
And if he loves us, he would have put a stop to it.
CRUNCH
Registered User
I want him to show himself to everybody, in the flesh. Stop the world in it's tracks and say here I am, no more questions about my existance. Tell us all in one big voice to stop hurting each other and live by my rules.
I do try to help people every day. I make it a point in my life to be a good person with the people that I come in contact with.
EESCHMan
Member
Unfortunately, (for some reason) it has to be a big mystery...
All the atheists in the world would believe if he/she just showed himself, so why wouldn't he just do that?
I also help people & animals (especially!) and I don't follow any book.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
What about Jesus? He showed Himself in a flesh, did people believe Him. Nope. Why do you think you'll believe Him now, if He'll show up?
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Testimony of "This guy I know saw something happen (like a miracle)" is not even admissible in court of law. If someone appearing is to be evidence, then the appearance must happen to EVERYONE in order to be held to some standard.
Someone appearing to people 2000 years ago, said people then claiming they witnessed miracles, means nothing.
All powerful here, right? Ok, so materialize and cast all doubt aside. Thereafter, we can choose to be good or not just the same as we can now, correct?
Also, still waiting on that non-contradictory description of the qualities of the supreme being. Anyone?
CRUNCH
Registered User
One of them NEEDS to do it again, and in a big way. No mysteries, no telling us to just believe, nothing left to interpretation. I will not believe in, let alone love, any god until all needless suffering is put to a stop.
He needs to give us a new book to live our lives by. One in his words, and his words alone. Nothing that been touched by man. Faith is not working and god or jesus needs to accept this. Man has screwed up, millions have suffered needlessly and continue to. Put it to a stop.
EESCHMan
Member
Yes, we need an updated version of the Bible...
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
I wish it would be so easy... I don't know what else to tell you. I guess I could ask God few of those questions, but I can't do that for few more days I don't think.
EESCHMan
Member
I can't believe anything from a guy with hair (hat?) like that!
Naseem
Member
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Well, again, you keep judging without knowing anything about him. It makes me wonder about him sometimes too, but when you get to know him, he's the nicest guy you'll ever meet. And he's very serious about what he does, except he makes it more intertain and his look helps him do that.
Naseem
Member
when u say brian ll talk to god! do u mean talk ta him directly same as human communicate!
CRUNCH
Registered User
That wouldn't work for me. I need god to stick his face through the clouds, announce himself to the world and hand each and every one of us a new book. One without another man's hands on it, like Gary Spivey.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
BUCKNUTS
Board Supporter
If He did most atheists would invent some theory about an atmospheric phenomenon occuring so they could continue to disbelieve.This argument is as old as time and has no easy answers,but I would like to add that the notion that suffering/pain itself is evil is a buddhist belief system,the Bible clearly teaches that suffering/pain is a symptom of the problem which is sin.Sin is the cause of suffering/pain in a fallen world and not necessarily the sin of the person suffering(such as an abused child).God could just remove our ability to choose and thereby eliminate sin but that would also eliminate our ability to have any real relationship with him.I believe it was CS Lewis who said that the problem of pain is the aethist's most potent argument against faith.I was raised by an atheist father and was programmed to feel the same from birth,and I had these same arguments,even now it does make me wonder but I have less of a problem with it now.I had an opportunity to go away to college and get a degree and as I studied human anatomy and I saw the structure and organization that is a human being I began to have some questions about the likelihood of such order and structure occuring by chance.I am not a scholar or physicist but I do have common sense and when I can see the fingerprints of a designer in our universe from the sub-atomic level to the fine tuning of our solar system this has made me a firm believer in a creator.The so called "proofs"of evolution have never been shown to me. I have seen alot of examples of adaptation but I have never seen even one example of evolution that cannot and has not been either disproven or at the very least had serious doubt cast upon it the subject of the origins of our universe and of man are at this point a matter of faith you either have faith in a creator or you have faith in random chance.When I was a kid I was told the earth was a billion years old my kids are now being taught that the earth is 5 billion years old(no I am not 4 billion years old) evolutionists continue to need more and more time to make thier theories work I say take all the time you want it will never work out to me energy+matter+any amount of time=nothing at all.just my two cents
Naseem
Member
Darwin had written "If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties must assuredly have existed". However evolutionists, who have been doing excavations all over the world, have been unable to uncover even a single intermediate form.Living species emerge very distinctly in the fossil record. There is no trace of the "intermediate forms" that were expected to link these species
Naseem
Member
The theory of evolution holds that living beings differentiated from each other over a very long period of time with linked, gradual modifications. If this theory were true, then numerous "intermediary species" should have lived in history linking different living species. For instance, if birds had indeed evolved from reptiles, then billions of half-bird/half-reptiles should have lived in history. Darwin knew that the fossil record ought to be full of these "intermediate transitory forms". Yet he was also well aware that no transitional form fossils were available. That was why he asked these troubled questions in his book The Origin of Species: "
Naseem
Member
Trilobites, one of the oldest living species, appeared 530 million years ago. Their eyes represent the first visual system in the world. These eyes, with their extremely sophisticated and flawless design, deal a fatal blow to the claim of the theory of evolution that "Life evolved from primitive to advanced forms".
One of the living species that appeared suddenly in the Cambrian Period was an invertebrate sea-dwelling creature called the "trilobite". The eye of the trilobite had a "compound eye design". It consisted of hundreds of tiny eyes. Moreover, each of these tiny eyes had two different lenses. It is reckoned that this structure called the "doublet structure" allowed the trilobites to see underwater perfectly, without distortion. A professor of geology from the University of Harvard, David Raup says: The trilobites used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today. This perfect eye structure was brought into being 530 million years ago all of a sudden in its perfect form. No doubt, the sudden appearance of such a wondrous design can by no means explained by chance, all the more proving creation. Additionally, the compound eye system of the trilobites has survived to our day without a single change. Some insects such as bees and dragonflies have the same eye structure as did the trilobite. This situation disproves the evolutionary thesis that living beings developed from the primitive to the complex.
One of the living species that appeared suddenly in the Cambrian Period was an invertebrate sea-dwelling creature called the "trilobite". The eye of the trilobite had a "compound eye design". It consisted of hundreds of tiny eyes. Moreover, each of these tiny eyes had two different lenses. It is reckoned that this structure called the "doublet structure" allowed the trilobites to see underwater perfectly, without distortion. A professor of geology from the University of Harvard, David Raup says: The trilobites used an optimal design which would require a well trained and imaginative optical engineer to develop today. This perfect eye structure was brought into being 530 million years ago all of a sudden in its perfect form. No doubt, the sudden appearance of such a wondrous design can by no means explained by chance, all the more proving creation. Additionally, the compound eye system of the trilobites has survived to our day without a single change. Some insects such as bees and dragonflies have the same eye structure as did the trilobite. This situation disproves the evolutionary thesis that living beings developed from the primitive to the complex.
DR.D
Well-known member
How dare you presume to tell God how He should run HIS creation! Are you Mr. Perfect the standard of virtue? Did you create this universe? It seems messed up for sure so I won't disagree with you there. It brings a tear to my eye to think of such things as abused kids. It even makes me want to become my own executioner of justice at times, but you can bet that God has a game plan and He sees a much bigger picture that you or I. How can you form big, black and white conclusions that you're not qualified to make with your little, limited perspective? Could God stop these things? Of course He could. Should He? He's God! It's His call anyway so it's utterly irrelevant what our opinions are.
When you make your own universe you can run it anyway you want and make all the rules and standards. Until then, why don't you just leave this one to God and do the best you can with what you can control?
DR.D
Well-known member
It must come to pass. He would not be just if He pulled the plug prematurely. This is part of man's characterization process. Like any experiment, things have to be proved and established. Can He end the experiment early and still get good data? All you have to realize is IT'S GOD. I think He knows what he's doing guys! The Bible say the saints cry out 'how long Lord, how long till you avenge out innocent blood?!' but He has His owe reasons and timing and they must be perfect or else he wouldn't be God. If your way was more perfect, why aren't you God then? He knows what He's doing even when we don't, it's never out of His control and who knows why it has to be this way, it just does. It's still stupid to argue with God, you ain't gonna win that one man! lol
DR.D
Well-known member
Crunch, I've been talking with you for a long time. I have advised you on a lot of tricky ****. Do you really mean to tell me all this time you thought I was just a crazy ****in nut? Why did you even listen to me then? What I'm telling you now is the best info I have ever given you. Listen to me now man, He is going to do what you asked for. He said He's going to come back and maker Himself know where there is no longer any doubt and everyone knows. Why would I misguide you or take such a hard line on this topic if I didn't seriously believe it myself? I'm not trying to sell you anything or make a personal gain of any kind. I'm not some twisted sicko that get's off to joking about God and making crap up just to toy with people on the internet. I have better things to do (like sleep)! So why is it I'm up at 2 am to try and convince you that God loves you and has it under control?
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
By what standard of morality are we then to judge? If god can do no wrong, and whatever he does is automatically right, then that makes him amoral, and completely removes ANY value of morality to actions.
Is the rape of a child immoral? Well, then it isn't iof GOD does it, since anything GOD does is automatically moral, yes?
I offered the conditions of moral versus immoral....IF this being CAN prevent unnecessary suffering, and if this being is ALL POWERFUL, which means his creation COULD function without unnecessary suffering, and yet he CHOOSES to allow it to continue...then that makes him a being that should be condemned.
bludevil
Well-known member
This all goes back to free-will. God is not going to make you do the right thing. God is not going to make you love him. He gives you the option to accept him or not. We all have sin in our life, and those inmoral actions you speak of are sins. We need to accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour to help battle sin in our life to keep us from doing those types of actions. Given the right circumstances, we're all capable of doing heinous acts that we never could imagine. Also, it states in the Bible that these inmoral actions must take place before our Lord comes back to call his own. It's just another sign that his coming is getting closer.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Once again, where is your objective proof that any of this is true, rather than say the Mormons, or the Buddhists, or the Muslims?
bludevil
Well-known member
Right now it's on faith, but will be proven to everyone when the Lord returns. Also, with the other religions you mention, they follow a person who died and is still buried in the ground. Our Saviour, Jesus Christ, defeated death and was resurrected. A true sign that he was the Son of God.
Also, not here to bash or judge, just inform.
EESCHMan
Member
You obviously know little about evolution...First, it's been over a 100 years since Darwin, so obviously we know more now.
Regarding transitional fossils:
"Due to the rarity of preservation and the likelihood that speciation occurs in small populations during geologically short periods of time, transitions between species are uncommon in the fossil record. Transitions at higher taxonomic levels, however, are abundant"
"A transitional fossil is one that looks like it's from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.
To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human"
EESCHMan
Member
"The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is "100% bird," when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't"
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
Is the rape of a child immoral?
Yes, nobody said it's ok for child being raped. It is immoral thing to do.
Well, then it isn't of GOD does it, since anything GOD does is automatically moral, yes?
Exactly, God didn't do it. Another person did.
IF this being CAN prevent unnecessary suffering, and if this being is ALL POWERFUL, which means his creation COULD function without unnecessary suffering,
It calls Heaven, where everyone follows God's rule and there's no suffering.
and yet he CHOOSES to allow it to continue...then that makes him a being that should be condemned.
People CHOSE to suffer when they decided not to follow God's rules, it's that simple, yet you refuse to accept it.
Yes, nobody said it's ok for child being raped. It is immoral thing to do.
Well, then it isn't of GOD does it, since anything GOD does is automatically moral, yes?
Exactly, God didn't do it. Another person did.
IF this being CAN prevent unnecessary suffering, and if this being is ALL POWERFUL, which means his creation COULD function without unnecessary suffering,
It calls Heaven, where everyone follows God's rule and there's no suffering.
and yet he CHOOSES to allow it to continue...then that makes him a being that should be condemned.
People CHOSE to suffer when they decided not to follow God's rules, it's that simple, yet you refuse to accept it.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
First of all, I was answering Dr. D - who claimed that we should never question the actions of God because no matter what it HAS to be good simply because HE did it. Look at the Story of Job and the slaughter of countless innocent children in the old testament, on the ORDER of god. Was this a moral action?
Second of all, you are the one that seems not to understand that MANY MANY innocent children are tortured raped and murdered every year. What exactly did these children do to deserve it? Are these 3 month old children "deciding not to follow god's rules" and therefore they are being punished?
B5150
Legend
A barometer that I often use in determining if these sort of disucussion are benefitial to anyone is the fruit which they bare.
Whether you believe scripture or not the following has secular applications as well:
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I encourage you guys to remeber that when the debate is over we should still, regardless of your stance on matters of God and faith...love (or at least be good to and respect) one another. Without that ALL of this is fruitless.
Whether you believe scripture or not the following has secular applications as well:
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I encourage you guys to remeber that when the debate is over we should still, regardless of your stance on matters of God and faith...love (or at least be good to and respect) one another. Without that ALL of this is fruitless.
DmitryWI
I know nothing...
It has nothing to do with those kids, but with mankind in general. I never said it's fair, but God won't stop those sick ****s from doing what they do to those kids, because they chose not to follow God's rules.
If you want to protect yourself and your loved ones you need to ask God for protection every day, not cry "why God, why" when something bad already happened and then blame everything on Him.
If you want to protect yourself and your loved ones you need to ask God for protection every day, not cry "why God, why" when something bad already happened and then blame everything on Him.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
And to those people that DID ask god for protection, and were ignored?
Free will means that each of us determines our actions. If someone does something to an innocent, permanently damaging their psyche, then that is not much free will left to that person, is it?
Have you ever come across someone who has lived through a heinous, traumatic experience as a child? I would not say it "made them stronger", rather f-ed them up royally.
Not fair? This is an all-powerful being we are talking about, who forms the world as HE wishes....so then it again brings us to the fact that HE must have wished these things upon innocents, since nothing can happen contrary to his will.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
So a being that created man, who depends upon reason for his very survival, should not mind if I reserve judgement until such evidence is offered, correct?
There is ZERO objective evidence that a man named Jesus was crucified then ressurrected. The very gospel itself gives contradictory accounts of what happened, who was there, etc...so occam's razor would point to delusional witnesses.
mmowry
Board Sponsor
1) As Ive stated before Ive been through Molestation,physical and emotional abuse and abandonement plus many other things.Fortunately Im fine now but it took a relationship with Jesus Christ to heal me from this pain.Ive also been blessed with the opportunity to help others through these tough situations.So that debuncks that statement.His word states "with the same comfort that youve been comforted with comfort one another" these situations allow us to help others if we dont get caught in self pity.
2) Again God gave man dominion and responsibility for this Earth and we chose our own way so its only by His mercy that it isnt worse here than it is.So this debate will continue until Christs return and we as humans are forced to take responsibility for our sin and neglect of what He gave us charge over.
DR.D
Well-known member
Dsade, I have a new respect for you bro. You have a clear sense of justice, at least as it relates to the innocent little ones. I have struggled with this issue many times myself. I have prayed that God never test me this way because I think I would fail that test. If ANY man ever touched one of my kids, I think I might retaliate quite severely so I understand exactly where you're coming from. I won't even pretend to know the mind of God or exactly what He's thinking to allow these things to happen. I just know that God put these processes in place and 99.9% of the time it's not His MO to interfere. I still choose to trust that He is faithful though. You didn't always like your parents or the rules they made with you, right? But they had their reasons and it was pointless to argue because you were the kid and they were the parents. Only later could you see what they were up to and appreciate why they made some of the choices they did with you. It is the same with God. He's going to make it right one day and every tear will be wiped away forever. In the meantime, you have to reserve your judgment until all the facts are known.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
And if this god exists, and is what anybody claims he is, then he will understand why I also withhold my belief until it is explained sufficiently.
To me, it all comes down to justice...universally.