Creatine power or pills
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Spaniard
Well-known member
You need to pick your battles a little more wisely... I'm completely blown away by the support for AKG
Jiigzz
Legend
Welcome back bud. You recovering well?
Johnston
Active member
Yup, creatine mono has been scientifically proven to be 100% effective at what it does and is one of the most well researched supplements out there, so I find it quite laughable at all these EXPENSIVE products that claim to be more effective somehow. If mono doesn't work for you, it won't in any other form, nor is it 'better' in any other form.
TheSwanks
Well-known member
Lol. Better luck next time I guess. Its probably spiked anyway. Send it to me I'll.... test it
macdady
Well-known member
Pft I love to test random drugs and theories on my body. I might share though lol...injectable creatine, could you imagine? It sounds as bad as Helios lol, still haven't seen any reviews that I trust about that stuff
thescience
Well-known member
I await your name change to "TheAnecdote"
if a double blind study isnt good enough for evidence, nothing is friends.
Spaniard
Well-known member
I told you! Nothing short of a student's wonder supp!!!
Not BS at all when you are using them for specific things. As far as muscle building/gym results you should notice no difference. That being said, what you're referring to if I'm not mistaken is the Agmatine and Creatine being taken simultaneously. This might present a problem if your reason for taking creatine is NMDA specific, otherwise you should be fine. BA as you said works well in conjunction with creatine.
Also, very good job reading and performing your due diligence before just taking something.
Timing doesn't matter, that's why you've never noticed a difference
macdady
Well-known member
Woohoo there here! Lol stupid picture limitations won't let me post my glorious pile of sns products lol
thescience
Well-known member
the right form is everything with arginine im sure; that's why usplabs sells it in yolk3d
1. Cylwik D, Mogielnicki A, Buczko W. L-arginine and cardiovascular system. Pharmacol Rep 2005;57:14–22 [review].
"changes in 1 RM bench press, sprint peak power, time to peak power, and rate to fatigue were all significantly greater in those taking the NO2 supplement than in those taking the placebo:"
2. Campbell B, Baer J, Roberts M, et al. Effects of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation on body composition and training adaptations. Sports Nutr Rev J 2004:1:S10 [abstract].
3. Vacanti T, Campbell B, Baer J, et al. Effects of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation on markers of catabolism and health status. Sports Nutr Rev J2004;1:S10–S11 [abstract].
4. Nassar EI, Bowden RG, Campbell B, et al. Effects of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation on quality of life. Sports Nutr Rev J 2004;1:S12–S13 [abstract].
Spaniard
Well-known member
No man the reason yok3d gives users the pump as advertised is because it's a nitrate product. It's (last time I checked) arginine bound to a nitrate.
I don't really have the time to go over the studies you published but its safe to say that I've read them. I started researching on Arginine when I was 18 - 9 years ago. It seems you've been in the dark for a while. Arginine when taken as arginine, not endogenous levels, does not produce the purported results. Arginine taken orally - to increase NO production - was one of the supplement industry's greatest hoaxes on consumers.
thescience
Well-known member
I haven't made any statements that AAKG benefit comes from raised NO levels. I made a statement that the stuff works. I don't believe for a second that usplabs added a totally useless ingredient to their formulation. in fact, they specifically supported arginine, as attached to nitrate, in their promo
Spaniard
Well-known member
Ok cool then as a person that enjoys respectfully discussing supplements I apologize that I made that assumption.
What benefits do you think that Arginine provides? Remember that Arginine as a whole is used mostly in pre workout formulas and settings.
thescience
Well-known member
just the benefits ive noticed from using it extensively which I found in accordance with what has been said about the stuff in studies and what others have said. im not a vascular guy at all; many things that promote vascularity don't do anything on me. no2 and also this stuff that's not on the market called nitrox softgel both undeniable increased vascularity in my bicep and the front of my shoulders. I also got the pump, 24/7. id wake up with it. it vanishes in less than 3 days once I got off of it. ive read stuff that suggest the pump comes just from volumizing the blood. other stuff said I was storing more glycogen. others told me byproducts of that level of arginine AKG such as agmatine were building up. whatever; it was the most extreme pump ive ever had. my triceps grew, without changing my routine. after a while of feeling especially pumped in my arms, I noticed the very obvious change in their size. I also noticed effects on libido, for lack of a better word; I would get these embarrassingly huge boners when at work, or just because the wind blew without the slightest thought about anything sexual. my endurance was better on it too, as far as getting more reps out on sets; exactly the same improvement on endurance someone would get from citrulline, say. It didn't change my strength/the amount I could lift. I stopped taking it because I was crapping more; other people I know can take 12g daily and not get that effect. I read a study about Ornithine alpha-keta glutarate where only the male subjects (6/10) had bowel issues at 10g a day, while the females didn't, though why that was the case remained undetermined.
Jiigzz
Legend
"The 'arginine paradox' is thought to be related to how circulating concentrations of arginine even without supplementation are about 30-fold higher than the maximal capacity of the enzyme (eNOS) to convert arginine into nitric oxide, thus additionally arginine is merely caught in the backlog. Despite acting like a substrate for nitric oxide (arginine indeed create nitric oxide via its conversion into L-citrulline) the increase in nitric oxide seen with supplemental arginine is likely due to other factors"
Source: Examine
Intestinal uptake of Arginine is poor when subjects are in a healthy condition. It seems that a minimal amount of L-Arginine gets to systemic tissue in relation to other amino acids in the Urea cycle (Citrulline and Agmatine enter at more than 9 times the amount)
And Further
1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.
Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009 Aug;19(4):355-65.
Bescós R, Gonzalez-Haro C, Pujol P, Drobnic F, Alonso E, Santolaria ML, Ruiz O, Esteve M, Galilea P.
Effects of dietary L-arginine intake on cardiorespiratory and metabolic adaptation in athletes.
To assess the effect of diet enrichment with L-arginine or supplementation at high doses on physiological adaptation during exercise, 9 athletes followed 3 different diets, each over 3 consecutive days, with a wash-out period of 4 d between training sessions: control diet (CD), 5.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine; Diet 1 (rich in L-arginine food), 9.0 +/- 1.1 g/d of L-arginine; and Diet 2 (the same as CD but including an oral supplement of 15 g/d), 20.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine. Plasma nitrate levels of each participant were determined on the day after each treatment. Participants performed a submaximal treadmill test (initial speed 10-11 km/hr, work increments 1 km/hr every 4 min until 85-90% VO2max, and passive recovery periods of 2 min). Oxygen uptake and heart rate were monitored throughout the test. Blood lactate concentration ([La-]b) was determined at the end of each stage. Repeated-measures ANOVA and paired Student's t tests were used to compare the various physiological parameters between diets. The level of significance was set at p < .05. [La-]b showed a significant effect at the 5-min time point between CD and Diet 2 (CD 3.0 +/- 0.5 mM, Diet 2 2.5 +/- 0.5 mM, p = .03), but this tendency was not found at higher exercise intensities. No significant differences were observed in any of the cardiorespiratory or plasma nitrate levels. In conclusion, dietary L-arginine intake on the days preceding the test does not improve physiological parameters during exercise.
Atherosclerosis. 1995 Dec;118(2):223-31.
Wennmalm A, Edlund A, Granström EF, Wiklund O.
Acute supplementation with the nitric oxide precursor L-arginine does not improve cardiovascular performance in patients with hypercholesterolemia.
Endothelial dysfunction based on lack of nitric oxide (NO) may contribute to several settings of cardiovascular disorder. Chronic oral supplementation with the NO precursor L-arginine counteracts the development of aortic atherosclerosis in cholesterol-fed rabbits, and i.v. infusion of L-arginine may acutely improve endothelium-dependent coronary epicardial vasodilation in patients with hypercholesterolemia (HC). To clarify whether excess NO precursor may also improve general cardiovascular performance in HC, we measured working capacity indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive forearm and skin blood flow in nine patients with elevated plasma cholesterol (9.1 +/- 0.2 mumol/l) following random double-blinded administration of L-arginine (16 g i.v.) or placebo. Infusion of L-arginine raised the plasma concentration of this amino acid from 85 +/- 12 to 2460 +/- 230 mumol/l but did not change the plasma level of the major NO metabolite nitrate. Maximal working capacity, indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive blood flow in the skin or forearm did not differ between the treatments. The lack of positive effect of L-arginine compared to placebo indicates that excess NO precursor did not improve microvascular endothelial function in the patients, or alternatively, that the indices measured in the present study were not dependent on endothelial microvessel function. Thus, in patients with HC, deficiency of precursor for NO formation does not seem to impair either maximal exercise capacity myocardial perfusion during maximal exercise, or maximal vasodilator capacity in skeletal muscle or skin.
Circulation. 2007 Jul 10;116(2):188-95. Epub 2007 Jun 25.
Wilson AM, Harada R, Nair N, Balasubramanian N, Cooke JP.
L-arginine supplementation in peripheral arterial disease: no benefit and possible harm.
BACKGROUND: L-arginine is the precursor of endothelium-derived nitric oxide, an endogenous vasodilator. L-arginine supplementation improves vascular reactivity and functional capacity in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) in small, short-term studies. We aimed to determine the effects of long-term administration of L-arginine on vascular reactivity and functional capacity in patients with PAD. METHODS AND RESULTS: The Nitric Oxide in Peripheral Arterial Insufficiency (NO-PAIN) study was a randomized clinical trial of oral L-arginine (3 g/d) versus placebo for 6 months in 133 subjects with intermittent claudication due to PAD in a single-center setting. The primary end point was the change at 6 months in the absolute claudication distance as assessed by the Skinner-Gardner treadmill protocol. L-arginine supplementation significantly increased plasma L-arginine levels. However, measures of nitric oxide availability (including flow-mediated vasodilation, vascular compliance, plasma and urinary nitrogen oxides, and plasma citrulline formation) were reduced or not improved compared with placebo. Although absolute claudication distance improved in both L-arginine- and placebo-treated patients, the improvement in the L-arginine-treated group was significantly less than that in the placebo group (28.3% versus 11.5%; P=0.024). CONCLUSIONS: In patients with PAD, long-term administration of L-arginine does not increase nitric oxide synthesis or improve vascular reactivity. Furthermore, the expected placebo effect observed in studies of functional capacity was attenuated in the L-arginine-treated group. As opposed to its short-term administration, long-term administration of L-arginine is not useful in patients with intermittent claudication and PAD.
Source: Examine
Intestinal uptake of Arginine is poor when subjects are in a healthy condition. It seems that a minimal amount of L-Arginine gets to systemic tissue in relation to other amino acids in the Urea cycle (Citrulline and Agmatine enter at more than 9 times the amount)
And Further
1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.
Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.
Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2009 Aug;19(4):355-65.
Bescós R, Gonzalez-Haro C, Pujol P, Drobnic F, Alonso E, Santolaria ML, Ruiz O, Esteve M, Galilea P.
Effects of dietary L-arginine intake on cardiorespiratory and metabolic adaptation in athletes.
To assess the effect of diet enrichment with L-arginine or supplementation at high doses on physiological adaptation during exercise, 9 athletes followed 3 different diets, each over 3 consecutive days, with a wash-out period of 4 d between training sessions: control diet (CD), 5.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine; Diet 1 (rich in L-arginine food), 9.0 +/- 1.1 g/d of L-arginine; and Diet 2 (the same as CD but including an oral supplement of 15 g/d), 20.5 +/- 0.3 g/d of L-arginine. Plasma nitrate levels of each participant were determined on the day after each treatment. Participants performed a submaximal treadmill test (initial speed 10-11 km/hr, work increments 1 km/hr every 4 min until 85-90% VO2max, and passive recovery periods of 2 min). Oxygen uptake and heart rate were monitored throughout the test. Blood lactate concentration ([La-]b) was determined at the end of each stage. Repeated-measures ANOVA and paired Student's t tests were used to compare the various physiological parameters between diets. The level of significance was set at p < .05. [La-]b showed a significant effect at the 5-min time point between CD and Diet 2 (CD 3.0 +/- 0.5 mM, Diet 2 2.5 +/- 0.5 mM, p = .03), but this tendency was not found at higher exercise intensities. No significant differences were observed in any of the cardiorespiratory or plasma nitrate levels. In conclusion, dietary L-arginine intake on the days preceding the test does not improve physiological parameters during exercise.
Atherosclerosis. 1995 Dec;118(2):223-31.
Wennmalm A, Edlund A, Granström EF, Wiklund O.
Acute supplementation with the nitric oxide precursor L-arginine does not improve cardiovascular performance in patients with hypercholesterolemia.
Endothelial dysfunction based on lack of nitric oxide (NO) may contribute to several settings of cardiovascular disorder. Chronic oral supplementation with the NO precursor L-arginine counteracts the development of aortic atherosclerosis in cholesterol-fed rabbits, and i.v. infusion of L-arginine may acutely improve endothelium-dependent coronary epicardial vasodilation in patients with hypercholesterolemia (HC). To clarify whether excess NO precursor may also improve general cardiovascular performance in HC, we measured working capacity indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive forearm and skin blood flow in nine patients with elevated plasma cholesterol (9.1 +/- 0.2 mumol/l) following random double-blinded administration of L-arginine (16 g i.v.) or placebo. Infusion of L-arginine raised the plasma concentration of this amino acid from 85 +/- 12 to 2460 +/- 230 mumol/l but did not change the plasma level of the major NO metabolite nitrate. Maximal working capacity, indices of myocardial ischemia, and basal and post-occlusive blood flow in the skin or forearm did not differ between the treatments. The lack of positive effect of L-arginine compared to placebo indicates that excess NO precursor did not improve microvascular endothelial function in the patients, or alternatively, that the indices measured in the present study were not dependent on endothelial microvessel function. Thus, in patients with HC, deficiency of precursor for NO formation does not seem to impair either maximal exercise capacity myocardial perfusion during maximal exercise, or maximal vasodilator capacity in skeletal muscle or skin.
Circulation. 2007 Jul 10;116(2):188-95. Epub 2007 Jun 25.
Wilson AM, Harada R, Nair N, Balasubramanian N, Cooke JP.
L-arginine supplementation in peripheral arterial disease: no benefit and possible harm.
BACKGROUND: L-arginine is the precursor of endothelium-derived nitric oxide, an endogenous vasodilator. L-arginine supplementation improves vascular reactivity and functional capacity in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) in small, short-term studies. We aimed to determine the effects of long-term administration of L-arginine on vascular reactivity and functional capacity in patients with PAD. METHODS AND RESULTS: The Nitric Oxide in Peripheral Arterial Insufficiency (NO-PAIN) study was a randomized clinical trial of oral L-arginine (3 g/d) versus placebo for 6 months in 133 subjects with intermittent claudication due to PAD in a single-center setting. The primary end point was the change at 6 months in the absolute claudication distance as assessed by the Skinner-Gardner treadmill protocol. L-arginine supplementation significantly increased plasma L-arginine levels. However, measures of nitric oxide availability (including flow-mediated vasodilation, vascular compliance, plasma and urinary nitrogen oxides, and plasma citrulline formation) were reduced or not improved compared with placebo. Although absolute claudication distance improved in both L-arginine- and placebo-treated patients, the improvement in the L-arginine-treated group was significantly less than that in the placebo group (28.3% versus 11.5%; P=0.024). CONCLUSIONS: In patients with PAD, long-term administration of L-arginine does not increase nitric oxide synthesis or improve vascular reactivity. Furthermore, the expected placebo effect observed in studies of functional capacity was attenuated in the L-arginine-treated group. As opposed to its short-term administration, long-term administration of L-arginine is not useful in patients with intermittent claudication and PAD.
thescience
Well-known member
mr.cooper69
Legend
Arginine nitrate is used for its purported ability to reduce nitrate tolerance.
And you are quite incorrect, double blind trials are not the gold standard. The highest regarded studies are meta-analyses...all of which show AAKG does not improve ergogenesis.
And you are quite incorrect, double blind trials are not the gold standard. The highest regarded studies are meta-analyses...all of which show AAKG does not improve ergogenesis.
thescience
Well-known member
are you saying its a fluke where the people in the double-blind study showed the improvement while those on placebo didn't? also, im talking about sustained-release aakg with enos at 8 grams daily over an extensive period of time. are you saying that aakg/ornithine/citrulline has nothing to do with increasing glycogen stores, increasing no production, increasing GH excretion, reducing ammonia etc? any single one of those things could reduce fatigue symptoms. I cant imagine a universe where people in gyms everywhere aren't loving what No2 is doing for their workouts
mr.cooper69
Legend
You're kidding right? Whatever dude, I'd rather not get into this again. I'm sure you can google a thread from 3 years ago on this topic
aaronuconn
Well-known member
The irony in peoples usernames.
thescience
Well-known member
well, I still don't know if whatever meta-analysis you are referencing was performed on 8 GRAMS aakg sustained-release with enos over an extended period of time, or just aakg(as you posted it) at whatever dosage for however many days. I also don't know what your stance is on whether aakg/ornithine/citrulline has nothing to do with increasing glycogen stores, increasing no production, increasing GH excretion, reducing ammonia etc, supposed benefit of which are all subject to debate in my mind.
that said, im not going to hold anything against anyone if they don't want to talk any further about something, even it that something was an objection to information I threw out there for people's consideration
mr.cooper69
Legend
It's nothing against you, but when I've fought this fight repeatedly for years, I sometimes just prefer to lay quiet and have someone do the research themselves. It's tough to make the same, long-winded posts repeatedly
thescience
Well-known member
hahah, you should just stash a collection of the most frequent responces you have to make on your biopage with an index; when you feel the tediousness creeping in, you can just tell someone to check out your page