Creatine Nitrate?

schizm said:
I'm using some of this now, tossed in with some stim'd pre's...and just got in a tub of the Launch Pills... <3 CN...
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mr.cooper69 said:
Dude I also recently got the Launch Pills after seeing the top notch profile. But my goodness, it may be in the top 5 worst preworkouts I've ever tried. The stim effect felt like <40mg caffeine and I didn't get the endurance boost that I typically experience with Cit Mal or CN. I would love to hear your thoughts, as my only present theory is the tablet delivery system inefficient.
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^^^

It's funny, because Cy and I just talked about this, and our situations were pretty much identical. I'm going to give them another shot tomorrow on an emptier stomach (last time was only 1-1.5 hours after a small-med meal), and I'll report back.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Nitrates are actually salts in the manner that we use them in dietary supplements.

Essentially all nitrates are created equal for the purposes of performance enhancement/pumps, as it is the nitrate portion we are concerned about. The benefits will be most profound for endurance work, but there's no reason to believe they can't aid with anaerobic work capacity.



And I can go on...The effects are well-documented and nitrates appear to aid both aerobic and anaerobic training (sound familiar? See citrulline malate, which boosts endogenous production of NO). In contrast to citrulline malate, nitrates are an exogenous NO source. They don't take part in any heavily regulated pathways in the body, and thus, user-dependent effects and loss of effectiveness over time are mitigated. Furthermore, nitrates have a high half-life (~8 hours). The two downsides to nitrates are that: a. safety can become an issue if they are dosed too high/abused, since they are after all an exogenous NO source, and b. they must be co-administered with a hefty dose of vitamin C in order to prevent carcinogenicity/nitrosation.

With respect to your question, nitrates are nitrates. Some may make the argument that arginine nitrate reduces nitrate tolerance. I would make the argument that nitrate tolerance was never an issue to begin with unless you are dosing nitrates 2-3 times daily for weeks to months (see clinical use of nitrates). All the nitrates you listed are great options for pumps and endurance. My favorite nitrate product, and probably the best formulated, is C-Bol.
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How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:

Power Shock Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 12.5 grams (1 Scoop)
Servings per Container: 28


Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Calories 36


Total Carbohydrates 1g 0%
Protein 8g 16%
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 2.5mg 125%

Propietary Essential Amino Acid Blend:

L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine, L-Lysine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Threonine, L-Valine, L-Histidine, L-Methionine
8,330mg **

Propietary Designer Amino Acid Blend:

L-Leucine Nitrate, L-Valine Nitrate, L-Isoleucine Nitrate, Beta-Alanine, L-Citrulline Malate, Anserine (beta-alanyl-1-methylhistidine), L-Citrulline Nitrate, Beta-Alanine Nitrate
1,965mg **


BTW...this stuff is far too sweet for my taste and I'd prefer not to have and pay for all the EAA's included JMHO
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My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

Thanks.
 
David Dunn said:
How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:



My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

Thanks.
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You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance. A lot of people never go above 500mg, many can't due to low BP issues. Usually you can assume that 1 gram creatine nitrate has between 300-500mg nitrates. I'm guessing a similar amount in one serving of Powershock. You could double dose as an experiment, but you may run into issues like lightheadedness or simply diminishing returns. I believe mr.cooper routinely double doses nitrate products with no issues.
 
David Dunn said:
How does one determine the the amount or portion of xxxxx-nitrate is actually nitrate and what is the target amount of nitrate one would look to consume to achieve the endurance and performance benefits.

I am currently using VPX Sports Power Shock:

My goal is to determine the target "nitrate" intake (whether it be a single creatine-nitrate or a blend of xxxxxx-nitrate as above) and to eliminate all that fluff.

I'd prefer to be an efficient and cost effective consumer.

Thanks.
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In a prop blend its kind of difficult but one gram of CN has 312mgs of nitrates and amino/taurine nitrates have about 256 if i remember correctly. If i had to choose one nitrate product for efficiency and cost it would be Powershock
 
D3Baseball said:
You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance. A lot of people never go above 500mg, many can't due to low BP issues. Usually you can assume that 1 gram creatine nitrate has between 300-500mg nitrates. I'm guessing a similar amount in one serving of Powershock. You could double dose as an experiment, but you may run into issues like lightheadedness or simply diminishing returns. I believe mr.cooper routinely double doses nitrate products with no issues.
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That is wrong 1000mgs of nitrates would be too much. There is no deviation in the amount of nitrates in cn...it is 312mg per gram
 

You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly.
1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
_______________________________________+
408 mg nitrate

I'm too lazy to check out all the nitrate and performance studies, but this study ( Invalid Link Removed) for example used 8mmol daily (~500mg).[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the dumb question, but benefits of nitrates? Pump and endurance, anything else? Strength and or size benefits over CM?
 
Angelbolic, thanks for taking the time to do that lol.

Uva, benefits of nitrates are improvements in exercise performance. I'd consider that rather beneficial to a BBer. Nitrates are an exogenous NO source (NO donor, if you will), whereas citrulline malate exploits endogenous pathways and is theoretically subjected to higher enzymatic regulation. However, citrulline malate does confer benefits that nitrates do not, such as soreness reduction by virtue of bicarbonate reabsorption in the kidney.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Angelbolic, thanks for taking the time to do that lol.

Uva, benefits of nitrates are improvements in exercise performance. I'd consider that rather beneficial to a BBer. Nitrates are an exogenous NO source (NO donor, if you will), whereas citrulline malate exploits endogenous pathways and is theoretically subjected to higher enzymatic regulation. However, citrulline malate does confer benefits that nitrates do not, such as soreness reduction by virtue of bicarbonate reabsorption in the kidney.
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So it would be beneficial to stack a nitrate product with CM? Or would additional exogenous nitrates not produce any additional results?
 
If you're lookin for a hefty dose of nitrates for cheap you should look into "anabolic ignite" by musclefeast. No joke ive only been using this stuff for a couple weeks since ive been cycling off stimulants and it made me realize how awesome creatine nitrate is again since i first used C-bol a couple years ago.
 
Angelbolic said:
NP, it didn't take too long:)

Regarding nitrates, I'm not convinced they'll turn out to be beneficial in resistance exercise. (for a critical review read Invalid Link Removed ) At this point in time, there is no evidence an increase in NO corresponds to beneficial effects on relevant endpoints like strength and muscle mass.
For endurance sports they're quite promising though.
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for me the improved performance and endurance has resulted in improved body composition.
 
ericool007 said:
If you're lookin for a hefty dose of nitrates for cheap you should look into "anabolic ignite" by musclefeast. No joke ive only been using this stuff for a couple weeks since ive been cycling off stimulants and it made me realize how awesome creatine nitrate is again since i first used C-bol a couple years ago.
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After a second look at that product I believe that is exactly what I am after. The kilo size is a great deal as well. TY!
 
Angelbolic said:
You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can also calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly there is:

1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
_______________________________________+
408 mg nitrate in the product

I'm too lazy to check out all the nitrate and performance studies, but this study ( Invalid Link Removed) for example used 8mmol daily (~500mg).
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Angel I can guarantee they did not go that high on the nitrates for Powershock. From personal experiences with just about every nitrate based product it is not more than 300mg
 
mw1 said:
Angel I can guarantee they did not go that high on the nitrates for Powershock. From personal experiences with just about every nitrate based product it is not more than 300mg
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The Beta Alanine was put in the middle as a fluffer for the total dosages and i'm sure the Citrulline nitrate and BA nitrate is extremely small
 
Angelbolic said:
Unfortunately personal anecdotes don't really count as evidence. It's about time Thermolife (the patent holder of AA nitrates) puts the money where their mouth is and fund some clinical trials to find out if nitrates really improve body composition.
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Would you not agree that shifting more weight/reps and/or an increased capacity for cardiovascular exercise would translate into improved body composition provided the diet is in check? I doubt there is any direct link between NO and muscle growth. I've seen evidence for both sides of the coin.
 
Angelbolic said:
That's a fair assumption, but an assumption regardless. We don't really know wether (acute) nitrate supplementation has the capacity of increasing weights/reps or decreasing resting time. Further, we don't know if this mechanism ( a few more reps/sets) really translates into increased muscle mass. It's true that this mechanism is speculated to be (partly) responsible for creatine's effect on strength and bodycomp but OTOH there is an arginine study for example, that shows it increases one strength parameter but doesn't influence body composition.

It's really hard to make any hard conclusions without a proper trial.
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I don't find it hard to believe that when everything has been exactly static and then I introduce nitrates and there is improved performance (I have data from every single workout for years), improved stamina (I have fixed rest intervals between sets and they have decreased), improved endurance (I have increased my working sets and overall working time) and improved body composition (my body weight is the same with reduced body fat and mid sectional girth as well as increased circumference in my arms and chest and legs) that it can be attributed to nitrates.

I have done this thing for nearly 10 years - I kind of have an idea when something introduced to my protocol has had an influence.

Of course I am not a clinic but this is more than anecdotal.
 
David Dunn said:
After a second look at that product I believe that is exactly what I am after. The kilo size is a great deal as well. TY!
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No problem bro, it tastes good and mixes better than any other pre workout ive tried. almost like when you add a gatorade packet to water. No BS ingredients either, I feel the tingle from the efficient dose of BA. Amazing pumps, no stimulants, a couple of my friends tried it and love it too. Also 20 bucks for 30 servings I cant believe this PWO isnt recommended more.
 
Angelbolic said:
I understand your argument, but it's impossible to use this as hard evidence. There are so many logs how CEE is better than mono, how ZMA/tribulus increases bench press by 100lbs in 2.5 weeks etc. etc. Yet science has disproven all of these claims. I'm not saying the same is true for nitrates, just that anecdotes are pretty much worthless. No offence.
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I think that Nitrates have better scientific support than CEE/ZMA/Trib...but I get your point. Nitrates are more so in the younger stages of supplements IMO. I understand the want of more studies, but to dismiss until the studies is up to the individual.
 
Is supplementing additional Vit C necessary with all these nitrates?
 
That was my understanding as well, Thx!
 
uvawahoowa said:
You can calculate it by adding up the molecular weight of substance x and nitrate. For example creatine nitrate, creatine has a molecular weight of 131.13 g/mol (you can wikipedia/google it to find out) and nitrate has a molecular weight of 62.0049 g/mol. So creatine nitrate has a molecular weight of ~193 g/mol. This means creatine nitrate consists of ~32% nitrate or 1 g of creatine nitrate is ~320 mg nitrate. This way you can calculate the amount of nitrate in any other amino acid nitrate.

It's impossible to calculate the exact amount of nitrates in PowerShock because it's a proprietary blend, but assuming the ingredients are all dosed evenly.
1,965mg/8(the amount of ingredients in the prop blend)=

246mg leucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg valine nitrate= ~ 85mg nitrate
246mg isoleucine nitrate= ~ 79mg nitrate
246mg citrulline nitrate= ~ 64 mg nitrate
246mg beta-alanine nitrate= 101 mg nitrate
_______________________________________+
408 mg nitrate
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D3Baseball said:
You're looking at about 300mg-1000mg depending on tolerance.
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mw1 said:
In a prop blend its kind of difficult but one gram of CN has 312mgs of nitrates and amino/taurine nitrates have about 256 if i remember correctly.
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mw1 said:
That is wrong 1000mgs of nitrates would be too much. There is no deviation in the amount of nitrates in cn...it is 312mg per gram
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So, without getting too scientifically and mathematically complicated is it reasonable to assume that a BCAA Nitrate and/or Creatine Nitrate product equates to roughly 30% nitrates.

Additionally, obviously a BCAA nitrate offers the BCAA itself with the proposed better absorption from the nitrate as well as the nitrate benefits. The same goes with a creatine product - I get the proposed better absorption of creatine (if that is indeed what I want) as well as the nitrate benefits.

What I am getting at is that if I want nitrates, but NOT creatine, am I better served to use the BCAA nitrates (or other nitrate)? If I want both nitrates and creatine then creatine nitrate would be the best of both worlds?

I appreciate the insight.
Thanks.
 
David Dunn said:
So, without getting too scientifically and mathematically complicated is it reasonable to assume that a BCAA Nitrate and/or Creatine Nitrate product equates to roughly 30% nitrates.

Additionally, obviously a BCAA nitrate offers the BCAA itself with the proposed better absorption from the nitrate as well as the nitrate benefits. The same goes with a creatine product - I get the proposed better absorption of creatine (if that is indeed what I want) as well as the nitrate benefits.

What I am getting at is that if I want nitrates, but NOT creatine, am I better served to use the BCAA nitrates (or other nitrate)? If I want both nitrates and creatine then creatine nitrate would be the best of both worlds?

I appreciate the insight.
Thanks.
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You got it. Leucine and creatine have nearly identical molecular weights so they both essentially yield the same amount of nitrate.

I wouldn't look at it from a perspective of what the cation provides you. Why? Creatine nitrate, despite improved solubility for the creatine molecule, still requires a 2-3g dose for saturation maintenance of PCr, which is too much for most to handle (nitrate headaches). The same applies for leucine, only worse, as 45mg/kg BW is the effective dose of pure L-leucine. What many people do is add 1-2 g CrMono to 1-2g CrNitrate, or add bulk leucine to leucine nitrate, etc
 
About a week ago I switched over from creatine mono over to SAN CM2 Nitrate. With no other changes in diet/supps/routine, there has been a massive increase in the quality and intensity of my workouts. This stuff works, no doubt about it.
 
socal said:
About a week ago I switched over from creatine mono over to SAN CM2 Nitrate. With no other changes in diet/supps/routine, there has been a massive increase in the quality and intensity of my workouts. This stuff works, no doubt about it.
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Awesome!
 
Angelbolic said:
You won't get better absorption with creatine nitrate compared to creatine monohydrate. CM is absorbed nearly 100% and while CN may get absorbed faster there is no clinical benefit. I'm not aware of BCAA absorption/bioavailability, but it's a moot point anyway. A usual dose of BCAAs (which are a waste of money anyway IMO) is around 7g and that would translate into way too much nitrates.
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The bioavailability of creatine monohydrate at near 100% does not account for distribution to muscle or solubility. Ultimately, a creatine salt will have superior kinetics/bioavailability, but I agree, it is not reason to take creatine nitrate. Agreed on using any nitrate source as well.
 
Mr.Cooper, if you take the SanCM2, what other compounds would you add to it for a solid performance based pre-workout?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Caffeine
Ephedrine
Citrulline malate
Creatinol o phosphate
Lclt
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I like the way you think bubba. I had the CitMal, and COP in mind, the LCLT was not thought of though. I'm estimating the LCLT would be a 1g dose but what dosing would be the best for the CitMal and COP?
 
Angelbolic said:
Yep, but you want food grade stuff. It's widely used as a food preservative, so it's not hard to find. It's also offered as a dietary supplement by some companies.
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Potassium Nitrate Molar mass of KNO3 = 101.1032 g/mol

Mass/Percent
Nitrogen 14.0067/13.854%
Oxygen 15.9994/47.474%
Potassium 39.0983/38.672%

Is the % of nitrate (aka: NO3) in KNO3 equal to 61.328%?

Thanks again.
 
David Dunn said:
Potassium Nitrate Molar mass of KNO3 = 101.1032 g/mol

Mass/Percent
Nitrogen 14.0067/13.854%
Oxygen 15.9994/47.474%
Potassium 39.0983/38.672%

Is the % of nitrate (aka: NO3) in KNO3 equal to 61.328%?

Thanks again.
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The atomic weight of potassium is 39 u, so yes, nitrate is approximately 6/10 of KNO3 by weight.
 
AZMIDLYF said:
I like the way you think bubba. I had the CitMal, and COP in mind, the LCLT was not thought of though. I'm estimating the LCLT would be a 1g dose but what dosing would be the best for the CitMal and COP?
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LCLT should actually be 2-3g.

Cit mal: 6-8g (or higher)

COP: 2g minimum
 
mr.cooper69 said:
LCLT should actually be 2-3g.

Cit mal: 6-8g (or higher)

COP: 2g minimum
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Wow, those are some numbers! Looks like SNS will be getting an order for some CitMal and COP. I really want to try and test a performance based pre instead of just the stimmed up versions. Any thoughts on cordyceps being added to it? Also, I've read where COP can cause GI issues at higher doses. Have you any experience with it?
 
AZMIDLYF said:
Wow, those are some numbers! Looks like SNS will be getting an order for some CitMal and COP. I really want to try and test a performance based pre instead of just the stimmed up versions. Any thoughts on cordyceps being added to it? Also, I've read where COP can cause GI issues at higher doses. Have you any experience with it?
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Cordyceps has consistently failed to deliver in the ergogenic department. The only positive I've seen is an increased lactate threshold in elderly populations. COP has never caused me any GI issues at 2g
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Fierce is definitely one of my favorites. I have also noticed that quality of citrulline malate varies from brand to brand. Certain brands (won't name any) use a very high amount of malate with very limited citrulline. It meets label claims, sure, but it is far less effective.
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I see Citrulline Malate at 2:1 and 1:1. Without going into the label claims issues what is the preferred ratio for endogenous NO production?
 
What is the ratio of the SNS CitMal?
 
That's good because it's enroute along with the COP and NP's LCLT.
 
AZMIDLYF said:
That's good because it's enroute along with the COP and NP's LCLT.
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AZ if your packages don't arrive don't look at me i'm innocent.
 
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