CORTISOL YEAR ROUND

DR.D said:
I can certainly find studies to oppose your studies, lol, but that's futile IME. What's the reality of chronic cortisol manipulation? That's the topic. I did alpha and company clinicals on Ashwaghanda before you were even in pre-med coop, much less a member here. ;) Show me bloodwork, not more studies.
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What did your studies find with Ashwagandha? I am genuinely interested because I have been taking this for a very long time with excellent results.
 
niklasericson said:
Phosphatidyl Serine 100mg 3x/day keeps cortisol under control. I use it year around,I hate cortisol.
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I noticed this on other supplement websites as keeping cortisol under control. thanks for the knowledge as I will look at this to use as well.
 
I like PS, but hate the price and found that it takes in the range of 300mg a day to do anything, which worked out to about $25 every other week.
 
Has anyone ever researched lithium orotate regarding cortisol control? Seems pretty interesting for overall stress/anxiety relief.
 
kisaj said:
Has anyone ever researched lithium orotate regarding cortisol control? Seems pretty interesting for overall stress/anxiety relief.
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A while back I actually used lithium orotate for a couple weeks. It works extremely well at reducing stress and anxiety. However, I also felt emotional and mental "dulling"...it was very demotivating. That may have changed if I took it longer but it was having a negative effect on my job so I had to stop taking it.
 
kisaj said:
I like PS, but hate the price and found that it takes in the range of 300mg a day to do anything, which worked out to about $25 every other week.
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Vital1ty contains 400mg of PS per serving. Not a bad deal, really. Especially since it already has 5g of Creatine and 2.5g of Betaine.
 
Misfit28 said:
Vital1ty contains 400mg of PS per serving. Not a bad deal, really. Especially since it already has 5g of Creatine and 2.5g of Betaine.
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That is a very healthy dose of PS. Usually supplements skimp on it when added because of the cost.
 
DR.D said:
Have you actually tried what I suggested, or the things you're talking about? Or is that just a study you read? If cortisol is elevated, there is necessarily a preexisting imbalance, so 'reduction' will be reduction in a relative sense. No?

I can certainly find studies to oppose your studies, lol, but that's futile IME. What's the reality of chronic cortisol manipulation? That's the topic. I did alpha and company clinicals on Ashwaghanda before you were even in pre-med coop, much less a member here. ;) Show me bloodwork, not more studies.
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So you want to compare to objective evidence against objective evidence? Bloodwork you conducted against bloodwork other researchers conducted? Come on man, use your head.
 
jarrellt67 said:
A while back I actually used lithium orotate for a couple weeks. It works extremely well at reducing stress and anxiety. However, I also felt emotional and mental "dulling"...it was very demotivating. That may have changed if I took it longer but it was having a negative effect on my job so I had to stop taking it.
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Lithium is widely known to have this effect. It has been prescribed to manic, bipolar, and depressed people for years, although more recently other drugs are favored.

Regardless, it's a strong psychoactive drug which has a "numbing" effect. It has been said to make people feel like zombies or robots. Not something you want to be taking for the sake of shedding a few pounds.
 
Fbaz said:
Intertested, which dose of Vitamin C are we talking about?
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It's highly individualistic. Many factors are involved, and it could range from only milligrams to many grams.

Fortunately, there's an easy way to determine. I like Cathcart's method. It's super simple to apply, appears to work quite well, and requires no fancy lab tests or technical assays. His system basically involves determining the max tolerated oral dose (evident once gastrointestinal side effects begin) and then start to back off that dose, just until sides subside. Once depletion is overcome, subsequent dose requirements will be reduced, but cyclic stressors will obviously facilitate reevaluating dose from time to time.
 
kisaj said:
What did your studies find with Ashwagandha? I am genuinely interested because I have been taking this for a very long time with excellent results.
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First of all, I love Ashwagandha, so don't get me wrong! It's fairly versatile, and somewhat unique effects. I have even included it in commercial formulas for a few clients, which should be undeniable testimony to my sincerity regarding it's usefulness.

However, there is a weird phenomena reported by a significant minority of beta subjects, where Ashwagandha use results in seemingly permanent loss of effect withing just a few weeks or months. Even after prolonged abstinence from the extract, restoration of effect could not be reachieved! In other words, they burn out and it never worked again. This is somewhat akin to "non-responders" and atypical responders, but with protracted onset and no consistent predictability.

I have personally characterized both small and large doses of standardized Withania somnifera (2.5-7% extracts) and clearly develop a tolerance rapidly. It may still provide certain desirable results long-term, like anti-carcinogenic effects, memory benefits, and such, but the finer points of it's mental activity disappear in about 1wk for me. That's why I don't get greedy with it, because it works great situationally so I'll take what I can get.

But if it's still working for you after long-term use, then you are one of the blessed ones my friend! It may still be wise to consider taking holidays from time to time, but you know your body best to make that decide.
 
Thanks for the response. My reasoning for adding it in originally and still to this day is with general feeling of "evening out" as I work in a very stressful career and general life stresses tend to build up in me, so I have it as part of a stack that has worked wonders since starting. I've always used a 2.5% extract, but have been interested to see how a higher extract may affect me. I like the 2.5% because I do not get tired, simply chilled out a bit with the edge off.
 
kisaj said:
There is a difference between prescription lithium and OTC lithium orotate.
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Pharmacologically? Not really. Both Lithium Carbonate (prescription medicine) and Lithium Orotate ionize, forming lithium ions in the brain. Administration of lithium via ingestion of both these compounds has shown no statistically significant difference in lithium ion concentrations in the brain, at least in rats. Point is, theres not much of a difference at all. They both ionize.

Study: Invalid Link Removed
 
Ok, that I agree with, but we are also talking dosage of prescription lithium in the 450-1500mg range and OTC orotate in the 5-20mg range. Even though there is a difference in carbonate and orotate, the dose surely is a huge factor in the side effects.

I'll leave it at that because I really don't know a lot about it, but recently started researching it.
 
kisaj said:
Ok, that I agree with, but we are also talking dosage of prescription lithium in the 450-1500mg range and OTC orotate in the 5-20mg range. Even though there is a difference in carbonate and orotate, the dose surely is a huge factor in the side effects.

I'll leave it at that because I really don't know a lot about it, but recently started researching it.
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It's my understanding that those high doses you reference are for lithium carbonate (not just elemental lithium). Just for comparison, lithium orotate usually comes in doses of 120 mg...5 mg being elemental lithium.
 
Ok that's fair kisaj. I still would be careful taking Lithium Orotate everyday. Studies have shown that populations given trace amounts of lithium in their water supply behave differently than populations without the lithium. Mostly, these studies have looked at the experiment from a criminological perspective. Significanly less crime was indicated in the populations given lithium. But many have suggested that this reduction of crime was not because everyone was in a better mood, but that they were less impulsive. i.e. they were a bit zombified.

My point is, even these trace levels of lithium seemed to have a profound impact on people. It may be that there is a buildup effect over time, even at low doses. So, even low dose lithium orotate is not something I want to mess with unless I have a medical reason other than cosmetic physical fitness purposes.
 
Make sense. I don't take it, I just found it interesting and was surprised to see it sitting on the shelf of my local health food store so it peaked my interest.

jarrell- it is actually 5mg of lithium orotate and another brand was 20mg. Both orotate.
 
Olesta is correct. A little LO isn't problematic for occasional anxiety or sleeplessness, but it's probably not a good daily supp for most. I have seen it work wonders in bi-polar women, simply amazing results, but it's asking for thyroid trouble down the road. There are better options, as many have pointed out here.
 
DR.D said:
Olesta is correct. A little LO isn't problematic for occasional anxiety or sleeplessness, but it's probably not a good daily supp for most. I have seen it work wonders in bi-polar women, simply amazing results, but it's asking for thyroid trouble down the road. There are better options, as many have pointed out here.
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The thyroid and kidney problems were associated with much higher than recommend doses though right? Not arguing just curious about LO
 
I've not seen it with LO, only after several years of the Carbonate at standard, old-school doses (~500mg/d). After a few years, about half the users are likely to be effected to some degree (goiter.) It's not unreasonable to consider that the other half are really just sub-clinical at that point, and may still be destined for sequela. Now the LO appears more efficacious, thus lower dose requirements correspond to reduced toxicity risk, but the biological effect of Li is still the same. Know what I mean?

For some people, it obviously suits their chemistry. For those individuals, daily LO may complement their over-all redox health. The woman I referenced before benefited from 180mg nightly, and 360mg for several consecutive nights when having an agitated episode (then returning to 180 once she had "stabilized".) Nevertheless, it's all about personal chemistry. I'm borderline hypokalemic about half the time it seems, so it's just not a good fit for me as a daily supp. I find it best to avoid things unless the benefit can clearly justify the sides, and these damn muscle cramps have gotten ridiculous as of late! :o
 
ADRENOSURGE came in the mail today. can I take it simultaneously with other supplements such as fish oil, orange triad, test booster, etc?
 
DR.D said:
I've not seen it with LO, only after several years of the Carbonate at standard, old-school doses (~500mg/d). After a few years, about half the users are likely to be effected to some degree (goiter.) It's not unreasonable to consider that the other half are really just sub-clinical at that point, and may still be destined for sequela. Now the LO appears more efficacious, thus lower dose requirements correspond to reduced toxicity risk, but the biological effect of Li is still the same. Know what I mean?

For some people, it obviously suits their chemistry. For those individuals, daily LO may complement their over-all redox health. The woman I referenced before benefited from 180mg nightly, and 360mg for several consecutive nights when having an agitated episode (then returning to 180 once she had "stabilized".) Nevertheless, it's all about personal chemistry. I'm borderline hypokalemic about half the time it seems, so it's just not a good fit for me as a daily supp. I find it best to avoid things unless the benefit can clearly justify the sides, and these damn muscle cramps have gotten ridiculous as of late! :o
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say someone is prescribed 450mg twice daily of carbonate. What dosage of LO would be comprable?
 
jgntyce said:
ADRENOSURGE came in the mail today. can I take it simultaneously with other supplements such as fish oil, orange triad, test booster, etc?
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Yes! No other way to do it. You should take your multivitamin year round no matter what other supps you're taking, and while personally I prefer not to use fish oil due to concerns about where it is sourced from, you can take it year round with your other supps as well. Test boosters are generally OK to use with cortisol control products like adrenosurge, but the one thing you *might* want to look out for is if the T boosters have overlapping ingredients with the adrenosurge. Even then you should be fine as long as you make sure you're not totally overdoing your dose of the overlapping ingredient. For example if your test booster is giving you 200 mg ashwagandha per day and adrenosurge is also giving you 200, you're fine because 400 is still a reasonable dose of ashwagandha.

Ashwagandha would be the most likely of adrenosurge's ingredients to also be in your test booster.
 
It's tricky to say. I'm not sure LO is even approved to replace LC in 'treatment', so good luck finding reliable pharmacokinetic data.

Just to speculate about theoretical equivalence, a few points could be considered. LC contains about 4.9x more Li than LO (mg/mg). However, LO seems to be comparable at much lower amounts. That doesn't make sense if Li is the ion responsible for benefits, so it's not clear cut. It's true that Carbonates are notorious for inhibiting metal absorption in the gut, so perhaps it's a poor choice of salt. Nevertheless, I suspect it's used to reduce stomach upset, and compared to the Chloride it probably does. So considering that absorption efficiency of such salts will vary greatly (but predictably) depending on stomach contents, it's reasonable to suspect that the LC may be most potent and consistent if consumed with meals or acid adjuncts. It's also necessary to take into account any intrinsic advantages that LO may have based on it's Orotate component, which some research suggests is possible.

So basically, a true understanding of such things involve experimentation and evaluation on behalf of the individual concerned. Results speak for themselves, but if you have a cooperative doc and lab that makes it easy too.
 
DR.D said:
It's tricky to say. I'm not sure LO is even approved to replace LC in 'treatment', so good luck finding reliable pharmacokinetic data.

Just to speculate about theoretical equivalence, a few points could be considered. LC contains about 4.9x more Li than LO (mg/mg). However, LO seems to be comparable at much lower amounts. That doesn't make sense if Li is the ion responsible for benefits, so it's not clear cut. It's true that Carbonates are notorious for inhibiting metal absorption in the gut, so perhaps it's a poor choice of salt. Nevertheless, I suspect it's used to reduce stomach upset, and compared to the Chloride it probably does. So considering that absorption efficiency of such salts will vary greatly (but predictably) depending on stomach contents, it's reasonable to suspect that the LC may be most potent and consistent if consumed with meals or acid adjuncts. It's also necessary to take into account any intrinsic advantages that LO may have based on it's Orotate component, which some research suggests is possible.

So basically, a true understanding of such things involve experimentation and evaluation on behalf of the individual concerned. Results speak for themselves, but if you have a cooperative doc and lab that makes it easy too.
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Good to see Dr d back
 
Olestra said:
Yes! No other way to do it. You should take your multivitamin year round no matter what other supps you're taking, and while personally I prefer not to use fish oil due to concerns about where it is sourced from, you can take it year round with your other supps as well. Test boosters are generally OK to use with cortisol control products like adrenosurge, but the one thing you *might* want to look out for is if the T boosters have overlapping ingredients with the adrenosurge. Even then you should be fine as long as you make sure you're not totally overdoing your dose of the overlapping ingredient. For example if your test booster is giving you 200 mg ashwagandha per day and adrenosurge is also giving you 200, you're fine because 400 is still a reasonable dose of ashwagandha.

Ashwagandha would be the most likely of adrenosurge's ingredients to also be in your test booster.
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^^^This is dead on. I see no reason that you shouldn't be able to take other supps with AdrenoSurge. I am right now :) As Olestra said, the only consideration would be other sources of Ashwagandha. Hope you enjoy it!
 
EBF Inc said:
vs brand at 4 per day will hit the amount you needed for the studies see on ksm66

Just saying lol I've tried it and I love it

Have you seen cocoawell true energy?i really like jr
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I ended up getting my bottle and am on my 5th day. I really, really like this product. I am no stranger to adaptogens and can say that this is right at the very top of anything I have tried. Very alert, non anxious, energy that lasts all day. I split the 2 pill dose into one in the morning and one in the afternoon and loving it.
 
Hey fightbackhxc, how the heck have you been, my brotha?

It's good to see SNS still keepin' it real with such honorable reps like you, mw1, t-bone, etc!

but it's sad to see what's become of LMD's progeny here. :no:
 
DR.D said:
Hey fightbackhxc, how the heck have you been, my brotha?

It's good to see SNS still keepin' it real with such honorable reps like you, mw1, t-bone, etc!

but it's sad to see what's become of LMD's progeny here. :no:
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Dude been real good. What you been up to?
 
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